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Your mind thinks you're in danger, but when you really think of it, in that moment of feeling anxiety, are you in danger?
Inside, I am anxiety.
Yeah. Outside, I am on we.
Yeah. I'm full calm collected.
Nothing fazes me, but inside I'm like, mwaaah.
My first dog Charlie, on a daily basis, my mind goes to Charlie's going to die.
I have to be super careful when I take him on a walk in case there's something on the street that he wasn't supposed to eat but ate and he might choke on it and die.
I have to make sure that the collar is tight enough, but not too tight because we don't want to choke him or he might die.
Welcome back to Voicehugs a podcast about being your best self and embracing all seasons of life with open arms. This is your host, Vivian, and Rowena.
Whoo -hoo! So today, let's go back to a classic voice hugs episode.
Let's do a deep dive on a feeling that is very, very, very present in many of our lives, I'm sure, and very present in both of me and Viv's lives, which is good old anxiety.
Yay! Yay! I was actually so excited to film this episode cause it just brings me back to season one of being able to talk about a topic with you.
But yes, anxiety is definitely super present in my life.
For example, I think in general, since the launch of season two there's just been so much anxiety that has come up.
In what way? With starting anything new I mean, even though this is a second season we're relaunching again in a totally different way, it's that uncertainty of what's going to happen, how it will be perceived, how we're going to do what the future holds.
What our friendship will be like at the end of the season.
Yeah, so... Much stronger.
Yes, definitely. So we both recently watched Inside Out as I'm sure many of you guys have as well, Inside Out, too.
What stood out to you most?
because that was what inspired us partially to create this episode and Viv is just the part.
Yes, I'm wearing the most orange shirt that I could find.
What I really liked about this movie, you feel the personalities of each emotion really shine as they showcase each feeling.
What you see is that each of these emotions are just trying to help Riley.
At the end of the day, they want the best for their girl.
It made me realize that as uncomfortable and as much as I hate anxiety, maybe my anxiety is actually there to help me, if I know how to manage it.
And see, that's the crazy thing because we talk about this all the time.
I know. But when I was watching Inside Out 2, I was judging anxiety so hard. At the end, I was like, oh wait, but I'm just judging myself.
So you're judging yourself for having anxiety?
No, but like I did not like anxiety as a character.
I was like just chill calm down Take a seat be more like what is the the French ones on we yeah just be cooler.
Okay, just be cool It's the be cool.
That'll be a theme This is why I'm dressed this way It's like the most purple blue thing that I have but this will also be a theme throughout the episode for me and anxiety Because I think all of our emotions kind of are there to balance each other out these two specifically for me are very much tied Interesting.
I'm excited to hear the connection between the two.
Oh, you okay. Okay, I'm getting something Alright, so with anxiety textbook Google defines anxiety as a feeling of worry nervousness or unease Typically about an imminent event or something with an uncertain outcome I think the most important thing to highlight is that this is a normal feeling It's like something we all feel that our ancestors have felt since the dawn of time but for very different reasons.
Okay, so when I think of anxiety, there's an aspect of fear and a lot of times, our fear is there to communicate with us that there's danger, right?
And so, especially in the olden days when we had to go hunt and stuff for food.
And there's saber -toothed tigers and wooly mammoths.
Like real danger. As humans we've learned how to react in a situation like this through fight, flight or freeze.
If it's weaker than you, fight.
If it's stronger than you, fly, fight or freeze or freeze and die.
Yeah. And I think like, when I think of my anxiety, there's like a level of fear to it.
But the difference is when anxiety happens, a lot of times I'm actually not in danger.
And so that's kind of like the differentiation that your mind thinks you're in danger.
But when you really think of it, in that moment of feeling anxiety, are you in danger?
you're in perceived danger and like I think that's the crazy thing about anxiety is that it can come up in so many different ways like you can actually be in danger and be anxious or you can be giving a presentation and be anxious or you can be in a social environment and be anxious or you can be financially strapped and be anxious I'm feeling anxious so it comes up in so many different ways but I think that's a very interesting thing that I think both of us have learned over time through reading all of these like different literature and listening to podcasts that anxiety is this thing that's
trying to protect us from something yeah which in the olden days it was actually from imminent danger but now is just from ourselves and from our mind I know and if you guys have watched any of my content on YouTube or listen to any of our conversations in the past we are not shy about talking about the things that we've gone through uncomfortable feelings, depression, anxiety and for me it was the most prominent when I was in college and one thing that I read as I was going through peak peak peak anxiety and depression was that depression comes from being stuck in the past and anxiety comes from being
stuck in the future the things that are missing from both is being present in the moment and so yeah..
you know.. I think sometimes I personally don't relate as well with like a textbook definition Because I'm like, what does that really mean?
But for something like this, I'm like, oh, anxiety is I'm stuck in the future.
There's something looming.
There's deadlines. There's expectations.
There's uncertainty.
There's worry. There's doubt.
I think that to me, I'm like, okay, it feels a bit more tangible.
Yeah. Even though this feeling is very much present.
Yeah. A lot of times.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
As you were sharing that when I think about the past and when I think about the future, All of that happens in your mind.
Like you can't actually be in the past or in the future unless it's in your mind.
And so the only way possible is to be present right now to get yourself out of thinking about those things.
Yeah, and as we're just talking, I was, I just lunged to check our audio volume because I realize or we both realize when you speak your volumes higher, minds lower, and I just remembered I forgot to change the thing, but I just think, you know what, it's fine.
and worry about it in post. It will be present in the moment.
We're having conversation.
Don't worry about it.
Don't worry about it.
Go figure it out. Before we continue with the episode.
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Now back to the episode.
With anxiety, there's oftentimes like a negative connotation to it.
We don't want to be anxious - I mean just look at what anxiety looks like with her long socks that are striped and with her hair all over the place and she's just this little ball of anxiousness.
Yeah, there's like I think oftentimes like when you feel anxious There's a level of like, am I crazy?
You start questioning.
And I think that's probably where the judgment comes from.
You're judging yourself for feeling this way because on some level, you know that your thoughts are irrational, but you can't stop it from continuing and spiraling.
And so I'd like to know when was the first time that you experienced anxiety?
The interesting thing is Viv, and we've talked about this recently, is that the older that we're getting, the memories from my youth have begun to blur.
I don't remember a specific moment, but I remember an inflection point where I realized, whoa, this is, you're not okay.
So this was in middle school, maybe in seventh grade, peak of puberty, you're already like, who am I?
I don't know, like there's boys and then there's friendships and then how do I fit in with my group of friends and i don't know how because that was literally my reality there's no lack of anything in my life at that time which i'm really grateful for right my main worry was friendships relationships boys fitting in yeah and it got so bad to a point where i got shingles really yeah as at like The seventh grader, you're like, what in your early teens?
Maybe like 13? I didn't even know you could get shingles as like a kid.
Right? It's like an older person thing.
Could be, yes. But the thing is, it's like it usually happens if you've already had chickenpox, which like my brother and I both had chickenpox when we're younger.
And I think this triggers when you have like autoimmune something or when you're just really stressed.
So I went to see a Chinese medicine doctor and then he was just like, yeah, like, are you really stressed?
I'm like, yeah, I'm very stressed.
Now I look back, I'm like, girl, what were you stressed about?
But again, right now looking back and even from Inside Out 2, Riley, in her mind, like that is her world.
So that was my reality and what I knew.
I just think at that time, if I'm like taking myself back.
The thoughts that were going in my head were probably like, the school dances, what is my crush doing?
Do they, like, what is going on?
Why is there so much unknown?
Is there like, can I communicate better?
What about my friends?
Do they like me? Are they gonna drop me?
Are we gonna be friends when we go to high school?
Like what is this gonna be and how can I be a better friend?
Am I a good enough friend?
Like what's gonna happen?
What am I gonna do tomorrow?
Who am I gonna sit with next to lunch?
What am I gonna do over the weekend?
Like am I gonna stay home?
Am I gonna go out with my friends?
And the thing is like, I had great friends.
Like there's no reason for me to feel this much insecurity and i guess through that with anxiety but it's just this overthinking over analyzing crippling debilitating yeah paralyzing yeah thinking about the unknown thinking about the things in the future that have yet to happen that i will have no control over through the way it plays out we obviously have a certain amount of control right but in the grand scheme of things if you and someone aren't supposed to be friends if you and a boy are not meant to be together you will be together.
So from that perspective it's like you know but I still tried to think my way through everything.
Is this funny for you?
Because this isn't the row that you know.
Viv just cannot - she just looked at me and laughed.
Okay, I'm understanding why you brought up An Huy and pointed that emotion out in the beginning because that's the row I know.
But see that's thing right inside i am anxiety yeah outside i'm on we yeah i'm cool calm collected nothing phases me but inside i'm like hi what's going on nobody likes me i don't wanna be friends yeah no i i think that's why i'm laughing like when i think to like when i first met you that is just cool rogue cool mysterious, very chill, very calm.
But see, many things happen within the four years between middle school and high school and then eventually college.
What about you? When was the first time you felt anxiety or anxious?
You know, when you were saying all of those questions, I was like, I'm feeling it, I'm feeling it.
She's like, I still feel it.
I still feel it. It's interesting because I was trying to think about the first time I felt anxiety and I actually think I could not think of a single moment because I think I've been feeling anxiety all of my life.
I do think I have generalized anxiety and so it's constant in my mind.
Well let me share an example.
We love examples. Okay so an example.
My first dog, Charlie, love him to death.
I am in constant fear that something's going to happen to him.
On a daily basis, my mind goes to Charlie's going to die And like, I have to be super careful when I take him on a walk in case there's something on the street that he wasn't supposed to eat, but ate.
And then he might choke on it and die.
Or I have to make sure that the collar is around his neck tight enough, but not too tight.
Cause we don't want to choke him.
But he might die because he might slip out of the collar and then run across the street if he sees a squirrel and then a car might hit him.
And so like, this is an example of how I think with everything in my life.
And it's just how you've thought since you were small?
Yes. Wow. Yes, like the fitting in thing I, you know, when you're saying middle school, I was like, I think I've been feeling this since I've met people.
Since I was born into my family.
Yeah, I think I'm anxious.
Wow. Yeah. But I do think there are some moments that feel a lot more intense than others.
I was trying to think about the first time I had a panic attack.
It was really hard for me to revisit that memory.
I think part of it is because when you revisit memories, it brings up those emotions.
And anxiety feels so uncomfortable.
Because anxiety is something that I still work through, I realized that those moments where I had my worst anxiety attacks or moments always stems from this fear that I'm going to be left or abandoned.
And so even with the Charlie example, I think that makes a lot of sense because my fear is that he's going to die.
Essentially be gone forever.
The anxiety comes from like not having my comfort, or like feeling lonely.
And so I guess like realizing that, anxiety always stems from something deeper.
Even like with your example with like friends and boys, and I think all of us can relate to this where it's your first time going to a new school, you've moved somewhere, you have a new community, you've changed church, or whatever, you're starting a new job, there's anxiety in getting to know someone, putting yourself out there, am I gonna fit in?
are they gonna like me?
but really I think when I think about those things it kind of stems from a fear of rejection Oh no, all of it stems from some sort of fear Yeah Or fear of not being good enough, or fear of not living up to certain expectations, either you or other people suffer yourself So fear anxiety there, they're really good friends.
And I believe Brené Brown talks about this a lot too.
Like they coincide with each other.
Also this like need to be perfect body need to be perfect is because you're anxious and the voices in your head is telling you to be perfect because then you will be loved.
And, you know, you won't have to worry about X, Y and Z.
Okay so before we dive even deeper into the manifestation of anxiety as we've aged over the years from our youth to our high school days to our college days when we met, early 20s late 20s etc etc if you like something we could explore is the duality of anxiety that there is this anxiety that could be good for you and there is this anxiety that is quote -unquote bad yeah but then and we'll talk about the quote unquote bad later.
But I think yeah, it's just worth noting that within all of our emotions, it's there for a reason, if it's not helpful, I don't think the creator of the universe would design this feeling for us.
There are ways it could be helpful.
For example, I don't know.
I think as we're saying, like back in the day, fight or flight, like, you know, to be anxious, to feel anxiety, to feel fear is a very real thing.
When I think of anxiety, there's also stress.
The two of them can also help propel you, like a healthy dose of it can also be good.
But I think it's when it swings to the far extreme where anxiety in the movie turns into a mad blur and she herself can't even control what she's doing.
I think that is the anxiety we've been talking about.
The one that we can't control.
The one that just goes on autopilot.
I think a good example of like good anxiety is you have a deadline and you're thinking about all of these like scenarios on how to make sure that you complete something.
That is anxiety helping you get something done, right?
And it's not until usually, I think how I would categorize quote healthy anxiety is that once that's done, your anxiety goes away.
And... Oh yeah, you stopped thinking about it.
Yeah, other emotions come in, you're present now.
But it's the, as you said, it becomes debilitating and it actually starts impacting the way that you make decisions for your life that prevents you from living a fuller life.
And of course like everyone can define that however they want.
An example again, like bringing this just back to the Charlie example is if I live in so much anxiety that I no longer take him out to the park, for example, because I'm scared that XYZ is going to happen to him, that starts impacting the quality of his life, the quality of my life, because I'm paralyzed, I'm stuck in those anxious thoughts and fears and I'm stressed about the situation.
Yeah, yeah Mm -hmm, and I think talking it back to the movie.
It's also when it prevents joy from shining through So like taking Charlie out for a walk could be very joyful But if you stop doing that because of anxiety then that's also kind of the conflict that occurs.
Yeah Wow, this movie is actually a lot different.
I I mean, there's a little tangent.
I didn't feel too much after I finished watching it because I felt like I couldn't relate to the characters as much as I did the first time around.
But pretty deep, I'll give it to them, it's pretty deep.
So you shared about the first time it kind of came up for you in middle school.
I'm curious what other ways has it shown up?
If not in like friendships and with boys throughout the years and what does it look like now?
I would say middle school high school is probably almost all around relationships and boys that's just What ruled my world at that time before I gained consciousness?
I think it's what a lot of us Fixated a lot of our time on and like there are people now who maybe didn't fixate then they fixated on it now in their Late 20s or 30s.
Yeah, so that was my middle school in high school School did not really make me anxious i did not care about school as much as i should have this is also the era of myspace and like myspace top 8s and like oh i my crush is number one and then my god and then they move you down or something you or like you go on a trip and you come back and another girl is number one and you know because you and your friend both like the same guy oh so it's like things like that right where you're just like it's out of your control it's uncertain obviously because it's another person it's another human you can't
control that and I guess fast forward to college when we met I think at that time my life became far more existential so the anxiety slowly started becoming more about the future, my role in the world.
You know like what that could look like what that could be, am I living up to my potential, I feel like I could do so But how come I'm not doing anything and at the same time boys Constant in your life So this is why I hope it paints like I've never shared about this on my channel before either Now that I'm saying it it's great context as to why I just did not day and was not interested in boys For my early to mid to late 20s until I met jams Yeah, cuz I just didn't want like I just for the first time in my life is I'm good I don't want to worry about this thing that has been a constant source
of Anxiety. Yeah, I think avoiding it for six years is was like a form of flight.
No, I think it was a healthy It wasn't like a like an avoidance.
I think it was a healthy I know who I am in being anxious about boys and I wanna experience life without being anxious.
Because it's not something I wanted to spend my life around.
Yeah, so even in college, when I did have a boyfriend, it would still be anxiety.
Why is he not texting?
Why is he texting? Is he texting other girls?
Why is this girl texting him?
You know, why's he hiding his phone and why aren't we hanging out this weekend and how come he doesn't wanna spend 24 7 with me?
You know? It's actually 100x that.
That is so dialed down.
Those were the things simultaneously.
Who am I? What is my place in the world?
Existential, existential, existential.
Okay, I don't want to generalize, but doesn't everyone feel this way all the time?
Is it just me? Because I totally resonate with what you're saying.
It's just every topic in my life, whether it's getting that internship, boys.
I remember like my first boyfriend when he was applying for other jobs I was feeling so anxious about him not getting a job because that would impact my future but then I was also anxious about him getting a job and then finding a girl at his job and so there was like no win, it was just Everything negative that could possibly happen You would visualize it in your head and you just sit there and oh my god I feel like you're literally talking about this is making me want to just hide in a tiny blanket.
I know, we're both getting so sweaty.
My palms are sweaty, speaking of sweaty palms that is definitely something that happens when I start feeling anxious.
I get sweaty palms, I get short feet, shortness of breath.
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Awekward laughter comes out.
Before I move on with 20s...
Uh -huh. Let's hear your...
My past? Yeah, your teen's anxieties.
I think similar to you, middle school and high school, it's, maybe it's just that age group.
It's your first time kind of leaving your family and socializing with other people.
It was definitely about fitting in and making friends.
And I think especially in middle school, when I was in a predominantly Caucasian neighborhood, I was so anxious about not fitting in, in that way.
So I would try to like look like the other girls or dress like the other girls But I think that would have happened in any environment that I was in Like whether everyone looked like me You would still find ways of how they're different from you And how you are like freaking out about not being liked or not being accepted Or how they're better than you and how you can be more like them Yeah High school I felt a lot of anxiety with my school Which is very different from you So I cared a lot about getting good grades and like it felt like my life depended on the college that I was going to go to.
And so - How were you?
I really needed to do all the extra curriculars.
I needed to take all the APs and get all the good grades.
And - And you did. And you got into a great school.
I did at the expense of like my health.
I think, in the sense of like I photoshopped every single photo of myself.
and this was back then before we had FaceTune or Instagram where this was legit like Tumblr Photoshop this was my entire forehead was just covered in acne and I think pimples on your forehead I think it's from stress like here it's more like hormonal maybe and so I was just in constant stress of like making sure I get into the a good school when I got to school you know I accomplished that it then became a mix of like, how do I find a group of friends in a school that's so big?
Like for me, it was really hard to make friends in class because you don't necessarily have the same interests as them and so maybe you're assigned a project with a team, but it was really hard for me to make friends like in the classroom, going to these clubs.
Oh my God. So much anxiety there.
If I show up by myself, are people going to think I'm a loner?
how do i even introduce myself oh my gosh it looks like some people are already friends how did they already make friends with each other like how come i don't know anybody and i think that's also why a lot of times when i go to social events parties birthdays whatever back in the day not now i always needed that one friend that i felt close to because within that dynamic i felt like i fit in, and I felt like I had someone, but even then you realize that you're dependent on this person in order to go out and socialize and mingle.
So, man, I don't miss that at all, I don't...
I don't miss that. We found each other through a business fraternity.
Yeah, thank goodness, and then we don't have to make any more new friends.
I'm just kidding. One thing that I vividly remember I feel like for most people maybe there's only like point zero zero zero one percent of the world who's just a natural public speaker.
Everyone else I feel like you get anxious before speaking publicly.
You know this is just like especially when we went to school for business half of the classes were group presentations right and all throughout my whole college career up until senior year, every single presentation I gave in shambles just like pitter patter, forget how to speak and just noises come out like it's just bad.
But then senior year of college and I think this was after I had studied abroad ironically studying abroad was the first time they required attendance in every single class and participation in class.
So I went to more classes during a semester while I studied abroad than I did at our school which is crazy so anyway that was junior year came back and I think I learned more of oh like I guess you showed up in class because I showed up in class I realized I could talk because usually I'm not like I never talked in class either it's like it's to not cool or it's like I just really don't know what to say I just like never wrap my head around school and like how to be a good student it's not even how to be a stupid just like how to show up actually as a student and learn because I always felt like
academics was something that was like forced upon you but I think also because senior year a lot of classes we took were more elective and they're more fun I thrived so much more and a lot of the group projects because I did pour my heart and soul into creating it for example it would be like create a concept for an app and like wireframe it and everything and like pitch it so then for those classes there's two presentations towards the end of senior year where I stood up Gave the presentation and it was as if I was just talking to a friend and I remember like none of my flight or flight None
of my anxiety, none of my sweaty pits, sore palms, anything was activated and I was like, wait This is so interesting And when I tried to think about why that happened I think it was because A I was prepared for the first time maybe in my life actually tried Back then, I was like, people create memes about people like me and their career projects, like I never carried my weight.
It's just like for the first time, like I was prepared, I did the things I had to do and there's literally nothing to be scared of because I was prepared.
No matter what the students asked me, no matter what the teachers asked me, this was something that I created from my own brain that I went through and reiterated and changed so many times that there's nothing to be afraid of.
That was such a legit enlightening moment for me.
It was literally the first time that I was like, oh, I don't feel any of these crippling emotions.
I just went up and gave a speech and it was great.
And I moved on with my life.
It's really interesting.
I heard like two things from that story.
One is there was some sort of sense of self or confidence, whether it was preparation or interest for that project, because you felt confident about it, you knew it, there was no space for that uncertainty.
Yeah, I think confidence is a big thing.
Yeah. And then the second thing is, which you didn't really mention, but it came to mind, is this sense of control.
When you do feel prepared, you feel more in control.
When you feel confident, you feel more in control.
And I think a lot of times anxiety shows up when it feels like there's no way to control the situation.
You don't know if he's gonna text you back.
You don't know if you're gonna stand up there and make a fool out of yourself because you're just so in your head, right?
But I think because you're so present with that project, it allowed for you to stay present during that presentation.
I like that. I think it's something that can help us step out of our anxiety, are we feeling out of control, how can we gain more control, how much of this is irrational, and how do we bring ourselves back to the present moment, whether that's being prepared, feeling confident.
Or giving a presentation.
Yeah. I think the reason why those of you guys watching the video when Viv first talks about control, I started smiling like an idiot.
It's so interesting how much all of these feelings overlap because I do think there's a sense of control.
When you do have, again, healthy amounts of control, which can lead to confidence, which means you are prepared enough, It allows you the freedom to be like, I did my best, I prepped as much as I possibly could, and this is the best that I'm gonna do.
And so I think that piece is so important.
The preparation part.
Cause I think a lot of times we do feel anxious because we feel like we don't have control.
We feel like everything is so intangible.
If we start chipping away one small piece at a time, it could help us feel more and more prepared.
And there will come a point where you'll just have to tell yourself, I literally did my best, right?
And then you would know if you did your best or not.
And you would know where you are in the seasons in your life, whether that best is like your best. There's so many things that overlap here.
Even with the idea of control, asking yourself if you have control over the situation, if the worst case scenario were to happen, would it really be that bad?
You know, like when we really think about it, I guess in the moment - yourself in the moment yeah it is that bad right but if you're able to somehow whether through the help of yourself which is hard or through the help of friends or through the help of reading podcasts you know whatever to help you kind of eject yourself from that spiral like it could help maybe it's less about control and you find control in being in the present moment yeah and seeing what you can do right now and that is that sense of quote control that you feel to help you calm down.
Yeah i think presence is a huge huge thing oh oh and now this all makes sense now it's because i learned about being present at that time for the first time when i was studying abroad in hong kong ah or like after i came back okay yeah i remember being in hong kong i was so sad all the time i was so depressed i kept thinking about my boyfriend i thinking about my friends and how i miss them so much and are they missing me and they're gonna forget about me and it got to a point where i literally thought i saw one of our friends like at a bar i thought i saw them walking outside of a bar like that's
how uh fixated and like not present i was that i was i wasn't like hallucinating okay it was i think people like may have looked like them but it was that was how much it had control over me that I think when I came back and I realized like yeah you were really not okay instead of reading and then read the power of now it's like oh I'm being present, great.
and then that led to end of senior year, yeah so this episode's really about being present.
yeah I mean that you know I got three books recently because I feel crazy.
It's a lot of transitions.
You feel crazy right now?
No! There's just a lot happening as we talked about in like our first catchup, right?
And then we don't say transitions anymore.
We just say it's just life.
Life is lifing. I think I've realized how not present I've become, which therefore leads me to be more ungrateful than usual, which leads me to not be able to see the small joys and sparks of life as we're talking about.
and I'm not necessarily anxious about anything but I think it's more, I'm just, I was gonna say numb, but I think my mind is more blank.
I'm just trying to reset like, I want to feel grateful, I want to feel happy, I want to feel joy, and you do that through being present.
I feel the same way.
I was thinking about what I've been doing to cope with my anxiety Which is I mean, I'm not gonna discredit my efforts I do think I try hard but I think at the same time I've noticed that there's this pattern of Escapism in my life, you know, one of them was booking a very spontaneous trip to Japan for a week Unplanned that's very unlike me avoiding all problems in my reality.
And something else that I noticed too is I started reading the Harry Potter series and I've been really enjoying it, which is a good thing.
This is my first time reading the Harry Potter series.
It's so magical and you get so lost in the books.
But when I put the book down and I'm back into my reality there's almost this disconnect of like, oh.
Yeah. Like I'm a mere muggle.
Yeah, like I kind of want to be in these books and I'm sure that this book in general makes you feel that way.
It's not saying that like people read this and they're trying to escape from their reality, but I think in the context of like my life, I definitely feel like when something feels uncomfortable, I don't want to feel it and so you shut it down with this thing that you think you cope in a certain way and it doesn't necessarily make it better.
And I think the same thing happens with anxiety.
I asked my friend recently, I said what makes you feel anxious in preparation for this episode and they said I hate small talk small talk makes me so anxious and the example that they gave was every time I go into an Uber I Hate when the uber driver starts talking to me because then it's just small talk for the next 10 -20 minutes Until I get to my final destination, there's a toggle on the uber app where you can request for the silent car ride Yeah and so they do that every time they go on an uber.
And so the thing that kind of sparked a thought in my mind about that is, one, there's nothing wrong with doing that.
If that works for you, great.
The second part of that is if I think about what I want and what's important to me, having that connection, even if it's with strangers for 20 minutes, is something that's important to me so then I personally, if this was my habit, I would ask myself why do I feel anxious about this situation?
Is it because I don't wanna talk about myself?
Is it because I get nervous that I'm gonna sound silly?
This person might not like me by the end of it.
And then it's a reminder of all the other situations that have happened in the past. So altogether I avoid it.
And this example reminds me of how I kind of have avoided my uncomfortable feelings instead of having that conversation with an Uber driver every time, it's an opportunity really to get to know someone and hear their story, right.
Instead of doing that, instead of facing some of my situations, I guess, in my present life, I find a way to shut it off, but then it comes back.
It always comes back if you don't - In other ways.
In other - In many, many other ways.
In many ugly ways usually.
With what you just shared about being present, it's a reminder for me that maybe that is actually the best way to approach your anxiety if you're in that car and you're feeling anxious to bring yourself back to that present moment instead of living in this fear of what might come out of that conversation and just sitting with it for a little bit longer instead of booking a trip to Japan.
You don't get yourself over it, you deserve it.
Yes and you know, there's nothing wrong with it.
Coping is how your body is trying to protect yourself, right?
Yeah, sometimes you have to run away and distract yourself to be like, Ooh, I'm doing that, because if you don't do it, then you won't know you're doing it.
Right. Or you'll do it in other ways that may be more destructive.
Destructive is a really good word. Is it hurting your life, or is it helping it?
And if it's fine, it's fine.
I think one thing that came up with your Uber driver example was, and you just touched upon this, too, is a lot of times, when we're feeling these feelings we are so so so much in our head like we're like we're literally stuck in our head yeah that is the definition of like depression and anxiety from the example i gave earlier you're just so in your head that you're not living i think in these situations too another thing that i remind myself with this specific uber driver example is i try to put myself in their shoes of they're a service worker right they, all service workers I feel have one
of the toughest jobs like you're constantly dealing with people you're constantly dealing with all these emotions maybe even egos maybe even just like like that is like you're dealing with uncertainty every day you show up and in my mind I try to remind myself if they want to talk which most of the time they do I remind myself maybe it's because they do need this conversation if I could bring five ten minutes of joy in their life by just listening to them I will do it yeah and I think that thought and just that like if I take a step back removing myself out of my head and putting myself in someone
else's shoes like that is so powerful and something that I feel we don't give enough credit to and that is a kind of gratitude a lot of times when we are in our head when we are super fearful, when we are super anxious, it is replacing this state of gratitude.
I think this is from Tony Robbins, but maybe he got it from someone else too, but it's like when you are grateful, you feel no other negative feelings, which I think is so powerful.
And we talk about this all the time now when everyone parrots this and everyone talks about karate and blah, blah, blah, how it's important.
But I really do feel like in this day and age, it's very, very underrated, ironically for how much it's talked about like to actually truly feel and practice gratitude on a daily basis even when you don't want to because I think a lot of times it's easier to be like I'm just gonna be pissed, I'm just gonna be pissy, I'm just gonna be moody I'm just gonna have an attitude today like even then to remind yourself okay, but let's try to be a little bit more grateful and a little bit more appreciative of The fact that you're alive and all the wonderful things that are happening around you I think there's
also a lot of distractions now and the distractions are like more Opportunity for us to get in our heads, right?
like if we were living in a different time when we're not exposed to so much information or like things happening and You know your schedules not so busy it's easier to kind of slow down and so that's something to be aware of too.
Like how busy are you?
Do you need to be that busy because the more you have on your plate the more opportunity you really have to kind of be stuck in your head if you are already struggling with anxiety too.
Yeah it's like slowing down to take care of yourself.
Yeah. And sit with yourself and practice that gratitude.
We've painted a pretty good picture of where we were in our youth and in our early 20s where are you now with your relationship with anxiety how does it show up what does it look like and do you think of her differently at all well I guess watching inside out definitely made me see my anxiety differently and this was a really recent thing so anxiety in general I feel like is something that I really struggle with and it's just so much a part of me that I don't even know what it feels like to not be anxious a bit which is kind of scary but I think now that I kind of see it in a different way where hey,
this came about because it was trying to help me in the past and now it's not really serving me anymore.
How can I slow down my mind and bring myself more to the present moment.
Something that me and my partner started which only lasted like a week so we need to restart that again is...
I remember that you shared to me that you and James used to share three gratitudes with each other, which are three gratitudes so at night before we sleep, we'll share three gratitudes with each other and even though sometimes, you know you know these things where you tell yourself you're enough, you tell yourself that you're strong, you tell yourself you're amazing, you're grateful for this, blah, blah, blah, I'm gonna wake up every morning.
You're a fraud! But then you like don't really feel it sometimes.
Because you trick yourself into thinking that you're lying to me.
I don't trust you. Yeah, and so I think it is the repetition.
Even though I know these are the right things to do and say, even sharing the gratitudes with him that week, and maybe that's why it died off, it doesn't always sink in.
Like I I try to find a thing that I'm grateful for I'm grateful for my dogs I'm grateful for this, but it doesn't sit with me It doesn't stay with me and I easily go back to feeling fearful and anxious again the next morning but what I realized was I think it's that consistency of putting your reps in doing it until One day it does sit with you and it does become a way of life for you That's what's more important than telling yourself to do the right things Yeah And I definitely relate to this because we've probably all had or heard of the five -minute journal by now Where you just write three
things you're grateful for in the morning and three things are grateful for at night and at one point It just becomes all about I'm like, I'm grateful for my warm bed.
I'm grateful for food.
I'm grateful for shelter You know, it's like the things you like the things you know you should be grateful for But I think now that I think back and from what you're saying to something that I would Try if I were in your shoe would be when I say I'm grateful for Charlie Like really just take 5 10 seconds to feel like oh, this is how much I love my dog I know okay I think what I will do and maybe you guys can try this too if this resonates with you instead of such a general statement to pick out a specific moment or encounter that you had during that day.
So let's use Charlie again, as an example.
Like I'm very grateful that today Charlie greeted me right at the door when I came home and he made me feel so much better the moment I came home from work, something like that.
And so it actually brings you to that specific moment during your day and you almost, even me just now, I was visualizing Charlie running up to me and how I was feeling before and yeah, I'm definitely going to try and do that Yeah I feel like if you get the warm and fuzzies from thinking about something Yeah, like I'm smiling I'm like Charlie!
Yeah Other than being present and practicing gratitude Are there other ways that you have found helpful in getting yourself out of like an anxious moment?
I think for you, maybe anxiety is a little bit different in that it comes up, but it doesn't stay with you all the time.
So when the anxiety shows up, are there other ways that you've found have been helpful in managing it?
One of the biggest breakthroughs that I've had that I've shared with you and that I've shared on this podcast previously was, And that's like the the core principle of Inside Out too.
Learning that my quote unquote negative feelings exist to help me in some way, shape or form.
I think realizing that anxiety is there to help me be a better person, it's there to help remind me of things.
I think, okay, to give context, these days when anxiety shows up, I feel like it's mostly from like sometimes socially, like social interactions, And I still get social anxiety.
It's so funny, because I, it's not funny, but I recently re -listen to my sleepover episode with Leah's field notes.
And I told her, I was like, yeah, like I get shy around people.
And she's like, yeah, like it's so weird for me to think that because I see you on YouTube and you're so, like you know exactly who you are, exactly what you're doing.
So for me to hear that you're shy, it throws me off.
But I get shy and I get in my own head too, Because I'm human, we are all human.
And so that is one situation world come up.
Other situations where it'll come up would be this looming feeling of I'm not good enough.
And then like, if I'm not good enough, if I'm not doing enough, why am I not good enough?
Why am I not doing enough?
It's because I'm just worried about the future and what that holds.
And so within these relationship aspects and this being hard on myself aspect, I think the core of it was this younger version of me who's trying to protect myself from being hurt.
And realizing that this younger version of me exists not to be a pain and this younger version of me isn't there to make my life harder, if anything its existence, just like Riley's anxiety and Inside Out is to, it really is trying its best to do what it knows, and maybe it's best and what it's doing now isn't what you need as a 30 -year -old anymore, but to just acknowledge that.
So I feel like these days if I do feel anxiety or I feel this intense borderline panic attack, I'll just sit myself down, I'll try to write out what I'm going through, I'll just write out a checklist of the things that I need to do.
And then once I kind of visually see, oh, here are the steps to help me get to where I need to go, it calms the voices a lot.
And I don't know, is that helpful?
Yeah, I definitely think that's helpful.
I think in a lot of ways, it i mean i was going to say this too i think there's a lot of anxiety treatment out there and one of the best ways i would say is like therapy and coaching so you feel these anxious moments but what your coach helped you kind of process is this came from something else right for you it came from love yeah it came from something else and so now as you find yourself in these situations and the anxiety comes up you now have that knowledge from that session with your coach and you know the fact that you are able to still bring it up means it's something that really sat with you.
That's how I feel about therapy too.
In therapy you bring up these situations where like this happened yesterday and I felt this way but you don't fully understand why and they help you understand from a deeper level so that the next time you do understand why you can catch yourself in that moment and find ways to make it and I think this is like the full circle moment with you know watching inside out judging anxiety about the end of the day realizing that it literally exists to help you I don't know my mind's helping me, but I Feel that it's trying to help you.
She's definitely trying to help you whether she's helping you or not It's another is another question But she trying yeah One other last thing that I have found really helpful recently, is that shortness of breath that you feel when you're feeling anxious and you know, being stuck in your head.
Taking a deep breath really helps.
Oh yeah, breathing.
Yeah, breathing really helps.
This is something that my coworker taught me like a few weeks ago, that her therapist taught her.
What you do is you stick your hand out and you use your other hand's pointer finger to move, basically outline your hand.
so as you go up to the tip of your thumb, you breathe in and then as you go down, you breathe out and then you breathe in when you go up to your pointer and then you go down.
So like you could do that all the way to your pinky and then you go back so you're taking these like really deep breaths, you're feeling your hands.
I've noticed that the time it takes for me to get to my pinky, I'm already focusing on my breathing rather than what I'm thinking in my head and I think similar to what you're saying and your example too of writing a list down, that's a way of like using your senses to pick up a pencil, write something down on paper to bring you to the present moment and kind of ground you a little bit to help you step out of your head.
Talking about everything just now too.
I realized, and we already briefly talked about this, that the absence of joy may be the result of anxiety ruling us.
you know anxiety was going crazy on the console and then joy like no one could get in And that's like when anxiety fully takes over so maybe it's like the gratitude and the joy part even though it sounds so simple it could be what unlocks life because I really believe that if we're able to be present and grateful for all the fleeting moments that life life has to offer and we're existing more than we're living in our heads that allows us to see the world sparkle.
And I feel like the world's always sparkling.
I love that. Because Joy was the one who was able to, total spoilers, but oopsies, warning, spoilers.
Yeah, I love that, that makes so much sense with the gratitude, that's what brings that lightness, that appreciation, that joy, you find that joyful moment during your day.
The glitter on your eyelids is beautiful and it makes the world sparkle.
Oh thank you! Wink wink.
Yeah. That might be the breakthrough of 2024 for Rowena.
I really miss these types of episodes.
Yeah. Yeah, this is really nice.
This is what I'm grateful for today.
Being able to have a 30 to one hour conversation with you and talk about these things.
yeah and the conversation we had beforehand also grateful for that too yeah yeah so the thing that Viv and i talk about all the time off camera and maybe one time we'll have it on camera maybe not but we say how unique of a relationship that we have because i think we're both of us we're not the most confrontational people and if a friend were to do something that bothers me like i'll about it i'll feel it momentarily but i'll let it go because it's just a friend you know like i'm not gonna i'm not living with my friend my friend's not my significant other i just let it go rather than the expectations
i have for my partners like you have the conversations over and over and over again but i feel like with us because we do work together so intimately and we do see each other every week now that i'm back we're starting to have more of these conversations but the fact we're both able to approach it so gracefully and so compassionately the fact that we're both so receptive and open to each other's feelings and we validate that while also sharing our truths it's so beautiful like i don't think i've done this in any other like i told her during that conversation like i haven't talked to any friends
like this before yeah and it's truly it's a it's very sparkling thing in my corner of the universe.
Yes, I agree. It's such a - I'm outlining my pillow on my on my legs right now because I'm shy.
You're so - I - ditto.
Ditto. No, it's such a special friendship because there's no other like it.
like you're never put in a position where you work with a friend, and it's not a real job either.
It's like a passion project, there's so many layers to this.
Okay, this is very real.
No, no, no, no, no, no. We work very hard. Okay, we work.
Really hard. We really do.
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Yes, we really do. And with that.
And with that, no, to wrap this episode up, yes, some takeaways, let's not judge our anxiety.
Let's try to sit with it and bring ourselves to the present moment.
Practice some gratitude everyday.
Take deep breaths. Control what you can and what you cannot.
Be kind to yourself.
Anything else you'd like to add?
And when you feel anxiety is taking over you, or stealing the control of your life, remember that there's joy to be had.
and that if you can find the joys in day, like the little joys in day -to -day life that could possibly override your anxiety.
Like the crippling type of anxiety.
Yes, and with that.
One more thing before we sign off.
So recently I found out that there's a feature for our Spotify listeners, or viewers, that you can actually leave comments on each episode now.
And that was not something that was around during season one.
So we would actually love to hear from you.
If you're a Spotify listener, you can add comments there.
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yes and with that how did you even do that i used my other hand amazing all right bye -bye
