Are your high standards quietly killing your team's morale?
Welcome back to Speak Up, the podcast for high-performing introverts, including you, social introverts where we reveal the charisma and communication secrets and strategies of A-listers so that you get the recognition and the opportunities you have earned.
I am your host, Laura Camacho, your magical executive presence coach, pod mother, and strategist.
And by the end of today's episode, you'll know how to build trust and respect, even when you're not the expert in the room.
A mindset shift that helps perfectionists lead with more ease and less stress.
How a Japanese tea ceremony revealed the true power of presence for leadership impact.
Well, everybody, you are in luck today.
We are going to talk with someone who is super smart.
She is Asian.
Actually, we're having this conversation with her being in Dubai and me being in the lovely city of Charleston, South Carolina.
And we're going to talk about perfectionism and some other things.
But I know that This is going to be particularly helpful for the people who either are perfectionistic or you may be some people on your team.
You know, they're so highly conscientious.
They do things so well, but there's a point of diminishing returns there.
So welcome to the show, Cynthia.
And tell us a little bit about what it's like to be a perfectionist leader.
Thank you for having me.
I think being a professionalist leader is not easy because you need to adjust yourself quite a lot.
So when I just started to manage team, manage people, I found it really hard.
I tried to make my team like mini me.
So I always work overtime just to kind of correct their work, to reframe the team, etc.
But then I learned new ways to manage people and to sharpen my leadership skills.
But now I will describe myself as I'm still a professionalist in my blood, but I know how to adjust it to make the people who work with me happier.
I mean, I know you've worked with a lot of Asian banks.
Have you worked primarily with Asian companies?
Is that a common situation in the Asian business culture, the perfectionism, would you say?
I think so.
I spent most of my career with HSBC, an international bank, but its main business is actually in Asia.
I also work with Chinese bank as well.
In Asian culture, it's quite normal to have professionals.
I also have bosses who are professionals, so you will know what will happen next.
They will ask for lots of evidence, lots of details, different kinds of things, so that they can make perfect decisions.
Yes, yes.
Oh my gosh, I'm having flashbacks from so many conversations with clients and listeners.
I love what you said about Cynthia was saying that she tried to make her people a mini me.
And even if you're not perfectionist, that is the tendency.
The thing is that you're successful even if you're not the top you know as a younger manager leader.
You're still successful because you are in that leadership position.
So how did you realize that making a lot of little Cynthia's was not the ticket?
Okay, I still remember that night.
I got the resignation letter from one of my very first members.
He told me that he resigned because he felt he was not respected by me.
He was really experienced.
He was really experienced, not just in terms of working experience, but also life experience as well.
I was a young manager.
And he said that he was so resentful that I kept changing his PowerPoint, his presentation.
I rejected his ideas, all sorts of things.
So he decided to leave.
And I cannot do anything to retain him.
After having that resignation matter, I really had no idea what to do next.
I really don't know how to tell my boss.
How can I tell her that my staff resigned because of me, because of my leadership style, right?
It's really hard to say that.
So that night, I went to a bookstore.
I tried to find an answer or try to find something that can help me wrap my excuse to my boss.
And then I read a book around coaching.
It's around coaching, actually.
And I just found that maybe I need some change.
I need to talk to my boss.
I need to be honest and candid around my shortfall around leadership management.
At the same time, I need to do something to improve my own leadership skill, just to make myself a better leader and also a better person.
Did y'all catch that?
The classic introvert response to a problem is often to go get a book.
But the thing about perfectionists, I mean, I'll tell you My point of view is that if your boss is too perfectionist, you get the feeling that no matter what you do, it's never good enough, right?
And that is not a good feeling.
So how did you learn to let go?
What was that process?
To have that double track, thinking of where you are on, still high standards but not too painful to work for.
Yeah, and as I said, reading a book can help, but it's only the start, actually.
When I talked to my line manager at that time.
He's also a professionalist, but she learned how to adjust her approach through her management tenure.
And she just told me that it's no need to be 100 mark all the time, okay?
You can be 80 or 60 some of the times because you've got quite a lot of priorities.
At this time, the priority is your people.
If you keep asking your team to deliver something at the best or to be perfect, then all of them need to work overtime and they're not happy at all and they will not stay.
Then you also fail your target around the turnover rate right.
So just try to strike a balance between all the KPIs of a people manager, not just at an individual contributor.
I think this is a really great reminder that I had in my early leadership age.
Yeah, it sounds like it.
And on a related topic.
The thing that perfectionists just cannot I mean it just causes them so much anxiety is when they're asked to lead something they're not an expert in.
I mean, it's not that they don't have an idea.
No, they can have an idea, obviously.
But when they're not like the alpha and omega expert in some project, that freaks them out.
How do you get around that?
I think that I am quite lucky because I got bosses who keep asking me to do new things.
They keep asking me to work on different projects, different color and even different functions as well.
They trust me more than I am actually.
So I got chances to take up challenges in safe environment.
But, as you said, it's very difficult at the start because I really want to excel in that new position, but I know nothing about what I need to do.
I still remember at one of the polls I was asked to lead a team to do something that I have no idea around.
When I was in the insurance department, when I joined the department.
I only know about travel insurance.
I think this is everyone knows about my travel insurance.
Right.
I have been spending over 10 years in a bank at that time already.
Then, after like one and a half years, I was asked to be the acting department head of the insurance department.
At that time yeah, at that time I was the one who was with the least insurance experience in the entire department.
Even the receptionist learned more about insurance than me, okay?
If you imagine how new it can be.
Yes.
At that time, I realized that I cannot lead all the things myself.
I have to trust the people I have.
I have to be relying on them.
So what I learned previously actually helped quite a lot.
I was really transparent to my direct reports.
I told them, I have no idea what's happening.
I'll say, I'm new to the area.
You need to teach me.
We are working as a team.
We collaborate.
You teach me.
And then I will translate the thing you told me to update the process and get what we really want, to get what we have, to prioritize the project we need.
But I know that the concern is that how can my reports respect me if I don't understand their work?
So how do you answer that question?
I got challenged. by one of my... She's not my direct report.
She's the direct report of my direct report.
So it's kind of two downs.
I had one-one with all my team members in the department.
I got 60 of them, actually, one by one.
And she honestly told me that she was not happy having me because she found that I had no experience around her area.
I knew nothing about her area.
And she even researched my LinkedIn, okay?
So she knew who I was, okay?
Then I was quite honest around what I know about her area.
She was in contact center.
And I told her that it's true that I was not a user of contact center and I have never managed contact center, but I was in other functions of the bank that we also need to connect with the customer.
So I can connect those knowledge and skills to support her.
And at the same time, I can help her to reach something that she didn't like to do, like talking to the management, translating things into PowerPoint strategy, those kinds of things.
So on that day, what I told her was, I am not the expert in the area, so I still need to trust you.
I need you to support me in the expert area.
But at the same time, I can help you to bridge the gap that you do not want to learn about or you need some time to master around.
So that's the reason why I'm here right now.
So we are going to collaborate.
What I'm also hearing from Cynthia is that she herself had to say pull out.
I have these transferable skills, like i'm good at removing obstacles, i'm good at developing people, i'm good at making pitches to the board.
So when you are brought into an area that you're not an expert in, it has to be you.
You cannot wait for other people to tell you this is key.
You have to see that, hey well, i don't know exactly how this area works.
I do know what makes a successful team and I do know how to talk to people about their work and how to help them motivate themselves and how to develop relationships with customers could be a skill set that you have, And I want to pull out what Cynthia said.
She said that this report of her report checked out her LinkedIn profile, which is, I mean, I'm telling you everybody's doing that.
Even if it's your peer, your boss, your favorite, they're going to look at your LinkedIn profile.
They're not going to spend two hours reading it, but they are going to look at it.
So I really, as part of my executive presence mastery system, was I go over people's LinkedIn profile to make it better, right?
Okay, so now I want to pivot a little bit to this topic that absolutely fascinates me.
It's about a presence as a competitive advantage and a lesson from Listen to this the tea ceremony, which is so cool right, Cynthia?
So tell us, beautiful tradition from Japan.
How does that relate to being a calm and respected and effective leader?
I spent three weeks in Japan in June.
And I got a chance to join a tea ceremony.
In that tea ceremony, what you need to do is, it was actually not much.
But you need to be really focused.
The master.
She will tell you every single step you need to do to make a cup of tea, to really focus around what she's doing.
You need to be careful around every single step.
It's like moving quite slow, okay?
Just like a sloth, okay?
Do not like me because I'm a fast-paced person.
So in that process, the key takeaway for me was actually the meaning of presence, okay?
When I was working in the bank, I got busy schedule.
So most of the time I was multitasking.
One of the time i was having a training, i was having a meeting and at the same time, i have a colleague sitting in front of me okay, talking about something else.
Okay, that's how how i learned, how i spent my time earlier.
Right, very normal.
But then in that e ceremony session, what we need to do is just only one thing focus on making survey.
Just your cup of tea.
What I learned from there was that if you focus on one thing, maybe you can get more out of it.
Just like when I had one-on-one conversation with my team members previously.
It would just focus on the person.
That means you can get more out of the conversation than your other conversation, like when you are also having other things on your hand, right?
So what I learned a lot from that is that the importance of being focused. and being present.
It's not just lip services.
I think it's about how you act and how you realize that in your day-to-day life.
I love that.
Cindy, I know you've got a startup now that has to do with optics.
And is that related to AI?
I want you to talk to us.
You know you're in the other side of the world where a lot of research and development is going on around AI probably a little bit different.
A different track, but the same technology that we're focusing on here.
What do you have to say about AI right now and for leaders who are seeking to be better?
Actually, I'm working on AI-related stuff from two perspectives.
One is I'm a co-founder of a test startup.
We do meta-service technology and one of our application use cases is the 3D facial recognition technology.
Like the one you have on your smartphones.
But our applications, our modules, is actually much smaller than the one that currently Apple is using.
It is just as accurate as the Apple ones.
And that's what we are developing right now.
And on the other hand, I also do governance advisory around AI application because I was from the banking industry.
And as everyone knows, banks use lots of AI and tech from years ago, not just recently, years ago.
Because banks need to fulfill different regulation requirements and also need to handle numerous amounts of data as well.
I am trying to translate what I learned from the bank to help people from other sectors to define how they can use AI to support their customer in a structured way with some governance inside that they can scale up.
Instead of just, okay, I want AI to do one thing and that's it.
It's not, right?
AI actually can do a lot.
And you also need to present some of the challenges or potential problems that might arise from using AI.
And that's kind of the second thing that I'm doing around AI.
How can just the regular, like the people listening who are in the trenches doing the work in finance insurance, tech?
How do you advise us to think about AI, to use it as a tool, as a leader?
I think the very first thing is, just like all technology, it's just a tool to help us to solve the challenge we have.
Can it be a business challenge or customer challenge?
So first, you need to have your forums and your customer pain points.
Then you use your AI tool to solve it.
And the key point is you need to use the tool to solve the problem, but not to create more problem for your customers.
Right, right, right.
What I experienced in the past is that One of the banks I worked for.
They introduced AI chatbot years ago.
But back then, that AI chatbot was a dumb bot.
That means they can only answer FAQ.
So the customer they were furious with the chatbot because they keep typing, typing and typing and they got nothing.
Then they need to talk to an agent.
Right right, right.
I know that feeling.
Yeah right, right.
So i think the important thing is that nowadays, ai is much cleverer and smarter.
So when we use a, definitely customer experience it's one of the key thing that we need to consider because, for example, we use ai.
Lots of companies use ai for customer services because it can save lots of money, but then you need to think about how can you use your chatbot to actually solve the customer inquiry.
If you can really solve it, your company will be happier because you can save your agent time, your human agent time.
And at the same time, your customers are happy.
They got their problem solved and they will come back to you again.
That's kind of a big happy customer, happy journey we have.
But if you've got like a really dumb chatbot or you save the money around that building that chatbot, you have unhappy customer, then your agent will be unhappy as well, because they need to handle the trouble created by the.
So I think this is one of the key things that all the leaders need to think about when they deploy an AI tools.
It's not just about external customer, but also internal customer as well.
It's Also.
My friends introduced internal chatbots for the staff, but actually the staff refused to use it because they don't know how to and they cannot see the benefit.
So I think there's quite a lot of things that we need to think about before we actually deploy the AI solution.
So as we get the benefit we want to have.
This has been so interesting.
I want to talk about one more topic.
Okay, so you're talking to, as you know, high performing introverts.
And sometimes we hesitate to speak up in a board meeting or high pressure situation.
We want to make a good impression.
The perfectionism kicks in.
And a lot of times we spend so much time, even though it could be seconds.
Analyzing, should I say it.
Should I not?
Should I say it?
And then boom, it's gone.
They're on to the next topic.
So how do you advise us to think about speaking up strategically in any kind of meeting where we're intimidated because we don't know the people as well or they're higher up the food chain than we are?
What do you say about that situation?
I am an introvert too.
So I experience the same all the time.
I think one of the very helpful tips would be you need to hypnotize yourself before important meetings.
Just to say something that can help you boost your confidence before the meeting.
It can be anything.
You can just say something that, okay, you can do it or you're the best.
Anything you like that can help you feel better or feel more confident.
Just repeat that for three times, okay?
And so you know, for all the important things, you need to keep repeating that for three times right.
Right.
So it's the same.
So just tell yourself that you can make it, you can do it.
And maybe in the very first meeting, you hesitated three times before you speak up.
It's okay.
Then you just tell yourself that, okay, maybe next time I hesitate two times. before I speak up.
And then slowly, you'll be able to speak up right at the beginning of the meeting.
I think it's a kind of a learning process.
For us, the professionals, a very difficult thing is about the fear of failure, right?
Right, right.
I think it's very important to have the mindset shift around that it's not failure, it's learning.
Every time you fail, you learn something.
So if you just fail to speed up in a meeting, after that meeting you just ask yourself what have I learned?
Maybe you learned that, okay.
I lack the confidence to speak up, for example.
Then next time, you help yourself to boost your confidence a bit before that meeting.
Okay, that might be helpful.
I think this kind of a learning process and the most important thing is that you need to believe in yourself.
Being an introvert doesn't mean that you cannot speak up.
Lots of introverts are YouTubers, lots of people do public speaking right.
Not because they are introverts, they cannot do something, just because rather, you believe yourself can be that type of person to do things you want to do right.
Yeah, you can be better.
You can be better than the, the people that take forever to land the plane.
Guys, you know that.
Yes good so yeah, this has been so good, so i'll let you close out cynthia, if you have anything else that i didn't ask you that i should have, that you think would be helpful to this audience, you know, very attractive in this high performing introverts.
I totally agree with what you said just now imperfect is perfect.
It's not possible to have something perfect.
Maybe you can have a perfect project plan, but when it comes to execution, you will have trouble.
You will have issues, different kind of thing.
So I think the key thing for us professionals to be top performers is your mindset.
Just believe yourself more.
You are good enough.
That's right.
That's right.
Well, thank you so much.
This was so cool talking to you in Dubai, everybody.
What can I say?
But you're welcome, right?
I bring you the most brilliant, interesting guest to talk about executive presence and how to be successful as a senior leader.
Thank you so much, Cynthia, for taking time to come on.
And we'll catch everybody on the next episode.
Thank you.
What a cool episode.
I love the Asian lens that Cynthia brought to the conversation.
Absolutely gobsmacked with the Japanese tea ceremony experience.
How that singular focus, that slow, deliberate, fully in the moment.
It just like reminds me to be calm, right?
And focusing on the task at hand has so much more charisma there in the situation, the conversation,
And if you've stepped into a senior leadership role recently where you are not the expert and it's making you not sleep at night, dealing with imposter syndrome and just feeling a little bit out of your element.
But you know that you can and you want to show up with confidence in your role and lead strategically at this higher level.
That is why I created the Executive Presence Mastery System.
Not going to tell you about that.
I have the executive presence scorecard, which is a quick self-assessment where you can see where you're stronger and where your opportunities lie in the application of executive presence.
There's a link to it in the second paragraph in the show notes.
Have a fantastic day and I will catch you on the next episode.
