In today's episode, you will learn why many high performers fail in leadership, and make sure you are not one of them.
Welcome back to Speak Up, the podcast for high performing introverts, including you, social introverts, where we reveal the charisma and communication secrets of A-listers so that you get the recognition and the opportunities you have earned.
I am your host, Laura Camacho, your magical executive presence, coach, godmother, and strategist.
And by the end of today's conversation with a super duper A-listers, a woman who has sold billions of dollars of health insurance I mean with her teams, of course you're going to learn the critical difference between managing people and leading them through influence, and why many high performers fail in leadership and how to avoid being one of them, and practical insight into maintaining team culture and motivation at scale.
Basically, I interviewed Mara Dorn because I wanted to know about scaling your voice, and that's what she's going to tell us today.
You're going to love it.
Real quick before we get into this amazing conversation.
I want you to know next month I'm going to celebrate episode number 500.
And that is your opportunity to get free coaching.
So if you'd like to submit a question, any question, your first name, your role, your company, send it to hello at speakupwithlauracom.
Enjoy. everybody.
I have the best news for you.
And you are probably going to want to listen to today's episode at least twice, because many of you are wondering Laura, how do I scale my leadership?
I want to be a more senior leadership.
I want more people.
I want to have more influence and impact in my company.
And today you're going to learn that from somebody who who has done that, Ms.
Mara Dorn.
She was the second person to sell over a billion, with a B dollars worth of health insurance through, of course, many people helping her.
She is the sales leader that you never hear about, the one who can sell herself, but also encourage and motivate and lead sales teams.
She currently... leads a team or several teams totaling about 500 people.
But today's conversation is all about scaling your leadership.
Thank you, Mara, for coming on.
Well, thank you for having me.
What an introduction.
Wow.
Yeah, no, this is a topic that we're all curious about.
Like, how do you do that?
I mean, I know that executives speak a different way.
You know, the higher up you go, the more people are listening, the more it needs to be like a rinse and repeat kind of message.
It's hard.
You can be successful say, leading a team of seven direct reports and maybe 25 people underneath them.
But then how do you go from that to leading several teams, leading, say, even 200 people?
Oh, that's a loaded question.
That really is a loaded question.
I mean, you know, the way my organization is broken up is into sub teams.
So, I mean, I wish I could tell you that I effectively lead over 500.
It's not true.
I don't effectively lead.
I have influence, but I don't lead over 500 agents.
I work directly typically with select few that are at the head.
I would say like, if you had like an organization that and you had different tiers, I would probably work with the ones that are closer to tier.
Not to say that I can't work with everybody, but in order to effectively lead a team, it's broken up into divisions and satellites.
Yeah, of course.
But the people at the bottom are effectively led by you.
Yes, I would say subsequently they are, yes.
But in order to get the message across, the message comes clear from the ones that are closer to the front line.
Right.
So it's leading from the top, obviously getting the message out, but it's having that core group of people that I can get the message to in order for them to properly relay it to everybody.
So what I'm hearing is that it's really the key is the same whether you're leading a team of seven people or leading a team of seven people with 70 below them, that your focus as a leader is on the people who report directly to you, right?
Correct.
Okay.
So, but if I'm a leader, let's say I'm a senior manager and I have a team of seven, and they all have a few people underneath them, but the next step means I need to lead three teams.
Like, how do I know I'm able to make that jump?
That's a good question.
I think it all comes down to culture and the buy-in into you.
If people are not bought into you, it's not going to work.
Everybody has to be collectively bought in.
Not everybody has to like each other.
You don't have to agree with each other.
You have to be agreeable.
But there has to be cohesion amongst the leadership team or the top people.
Because if there's no cohesion, it's not going to work.
And everybody has to have the same mission, the same goal.
Again, you don't have to agree on everything.
But the core values, principles and goal has to be the same within.
OK, but is there a difference between leading leaders and leading just doers?
Yes, there is, because the leaders are harder because they're already leaders.
So now they need to be bought into the type of leader that you are with the doers themselves.
In my case it's the agents.
That's the easiest part.
You do some fun things with them.
You show them that you care.
You throw out some spiffs.
That's the easy part.
The harder part is trying to develop the leaders that are leading with you.
I would say that number one is the core difference is that I'm not managing people.
That's not what I do.
I lead them.
So my job is to give advice, to assess the situation, give advice and not manage.
So I'm not leading with an an iron fist.
So we're all leading together collectively.
Everybody is heard.
So when you're leading leaders, not managers, which is completely different, right?
Because managers are taskmasters.
It's leading on a platform that every, again, everybody is bought into.
So that's getting them aligned with your vision, right?
Yes.
So how do you do that one-on-one, group meetings?
You do it both.
You do it collectively because there has to be accountability.
Accountability is really important.
So everybody is transparent.
Everybody gets to see what everybody's doing, whether their sales numbers are down, what their investment looks like.
I mean, that's done on a group call.
But then, I mean, what do they say?
You praise in public and then you condemn in private.
So then that's where the coaching starts on the one-on-one.
And that's how you start leading is you coach.
You coach and you mentor.
So the one-on-one calls start where you call and you try to define what's going on within their leadership team.
So we identify what's going on.
And from there we have accountability, or I should say we have implementation and then accountability.
That sounds reasonable.
You know, have your clear vision, make sure everybody's bought in, coach your people.
So why is it so hard?
Because a lot of people just flounder.
They're so successful up until a certain point. you know, the Peter principle.
And then they get promoted because they've done such amazing work.
And then they are not successful leading the leaders.
What do you see as the failure points?
Because I think some people are producers and some people are leaders.
And we often confuse that because you think somebody is a high caliber producer, that they automatically belong in leadership, that leadership role.
And when you place a personal producer or the doer, like you like to call them, into a role of leadership, that's not always what they're capable of doing.
That's not their capability.
Their capability is to produce at a high level and not lead other people.
So sometimes you put them in there.
They're floundering because they're still putting the me before the we and they don't quite understand that principle.
So I think there are selective defined roles, and there's nothing wrong with that.
They're just in the wrong role.
And what motivated you?
You know, you did... start at the bottom and you worked your way up.
How did you know that was your future?
What was that like?
I didn't know.
I really had no idea that that was going to be my future.
It was something that I kind of fell into and it came through agent experience and experiencing things that I wanted to change as an agent.
And the only way to do that is to grow into leadership role.
Right.
That's often the case.
I think when we work with a smaller group of people, we've Yeah, that's exactly what happened.
I mean, that's exactly what happened is that.
You when you lead a smaller group of people, you can kind of withhold the culture and the culture within your organization.
And I think that's number one of building any successful organization is develop a culture that everybody's bought into.
Right.
And when you're the one at the top, you can kind of control that.
Right.
As you get bigger in.
One of the biggest obstacles is trying to maintain the culture and still have a thriving, successful business.
I think the real question is how do you continue the culture and when your business is so spread out or your offices or your leaders are so spread out?
And that's the million dollar question is how are you able to do that?
And I think it comes through a variety of different methods, through inspecting what you expect, still being actively involved.
I might not be in their office all the time, because I'm one person and to travel to 10 different offices throughout the US is not always possible at one time, but it's to show the relevance still and that you're still actively involved.
So I typically know, and this is a big thing for me, so I don't know if this is helpful.
I typically know every single one of my agents.
I know their first and last name.
Oh, wow.
That's a big deal for me is to walk into an office and say hi, Laura Camacho, it's really nice to meet you.
And they're like, wait, you know who I am?
I'm like yeah, don't you remember?
I met you on the Monday call and you told me that you're one of your hobbies, that you like to do that I'd never know.
Or a fun fact is that you sing.
Like they love that.
I mean, it's just something personable to kind of identify with, that we're all on the same playing field.
That is so impressive.
So do you have a trick for remembering names?
I might not know the first name, but I know the last name because I look at the reports constantly.
And I usually start it with a fun fact.
Usually when somebody tells me a fun fact, I don't forget it.
That's a cool thing.
So the fun fact icebreaker is also a memory aid.
And I talk to them via text.
So I'll give you another example.
If I throw a spiff out there like some kind of incentive, I don't have a secretary that takes care of that.
I don't have an admin.
I do it personally.
So this way it builds rapport.
OK, so I've got two questions that are related.
So one would be you see people doing a good job.
But how do you know what do you look for to know?
Oh, Laura, she definitely should be promoted to senior whatever.
So we typically like to groom them.
That sounds terrible.
Groom them.
That's not the right word.
But what we do, we like to prepare them before.
So we'll put them into a pseudo role, a pseudo leadership role.
And that's how we'll test the waters, because so many times we'll throw, like I was saying, these high producers into a leadership role.
Find out, they're great as high producers, not great as a leader.
So we like to put them into the pseudo role of a leader and see if they can convert agents into making money, if they can do the we before the me, if they have that servitude type of attitude.
So we try to get that going a year before we even put them into leadership.
Many of you listening have been in an interim position or acting director.
That's an extended job interview.
And so if you were put into that interim or acting role that's higher than your current role, the thought is that well, you have the potential right.
They're kind of testing you.
Yeah.
Kind of doing a test run before you make the pitch decision.
A leader is not defined by their title.
It's defined by their action.
Yes, if they're big producers, that is something that we look for.
But we're looking for the people that are going out of their way to help somebody else, not for a financial gain, but because that's something that they really want.
It's a people-oriented business.
Most businesses are.
So expanding your influence might be through just finding ways to help others, which means looking away from your to-do list or your deliverables and seeing how you might help somebody down the hall or in another capacity.
Is that, would you agree?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that, like I said, I don't think that the title defines the leader.
I think it's, you know, exactly what you said.
It's not checking off the boxes, but really thinking outside of the box and assuming the role.
You know, if you want to, if you want to be the position, then assume the position.
We like to say that a leader, I mean, it's something that happens naturally.
Somebody that kind of steps up.
Somebody that is, you know, the we before the me.
Somebody that is really taking the bull by the horns outside of what is expected.
Okay, so you've said this we before the me several times.
Give me an example of what that looks like.
That means putting other people's interests before your own, period.
I'll give you an example.
In our business, it's sometimes you'll see somebody struggling on the phone.
You know, they're trying to make the sale.
So the person, whoever it is the future leader, if you will they take over the phone and they help them sell the deal without anything in return.
So it's really putting their needs before theirs.
Or, you know, even being that person that brings in lunch.
It doesn't have to be something expensive, but you know, maybe some Chick-fil-A or a home-cooked meal for everybody.
But it's really thinking about the other people before thinking about your pocket.
I love that.
Let's talk about networking, internal networking, external networking.
As a sales queen, you must be a master of that.
When you were in sales, how did you know who to talk to?
Or you're just given this list of people?
Look at the leaders board.
You know, I always say don't engage in the parking lot powwow.
Don't do that because those are the people that are already mad.
They already have the conspiracy theories.
You want to see.
If you want to make a million dollars, you sit by the person that make that is making a million dollars.
You surround yourself with the people that you want.
So for me, I knew that I didn't come into this for charity work.
I love I loved it, but I wanted to come in to make money.
At that time, I had kids.
I had to make ends meet.
So I wanted to I wanted to know what the big producers were doing.
I didn't care what the parking lot powwow people were doing.
They were just looking for excuses.
So I was picking everybody's brain that were high tier producers.
OK, so you can reach out to anyone, even outside your company, inside your company, somebody that you admire.
And yes, they are busy.
But if you approach it the right way, you can get some time with these people, maybe find a way to add value to them.
Right.
All right.
So we can't leave the conversation without talking specifically about communication, because I know that.
Maura is very concise.
You can tell even though she's an extrovert, she doesn't go around and around the topic.
She goes straight to it.
So what are your tips for communicating as a leader so that it trickles down and out?
You're very personable and yet you're also concise.
So how do you manage that?
I mean, what you see is what you get.
And I'm very apologetic from the way beginning.
Not many people like a dirty mouth, but I definitely have one of those.
But I apologize from the beginning.
But when I'm trying to convey the message, the message is clear.
It's very, very clear.
The goal is very clear.
And I repeat it all the time, because whatever I want to happen in the sales organization, the only way it's going to get done is if I effectively, competently and concisely repeat it over and over and over.
I know it's annoying.
I even preface it.
I say I know I'm annoying, but I know that if I don't continuously repeat whatever the focus is, it's not going to get done.
Exactly.
So I know sometimes we can think, oh, I've already said it.
They're going to raise a mutiny if I say it again because I say it so many times.
No.
You have to.
That's part of your job because people aren't listening that closely all the time.
And we're all so distracted.
And we need you, the leader, to remind everybody about why are we here?
What are we trying to accomplish?
Where is the focus right now?
And you have to be able to repeat that over and over.
Yeah.
I mean, it's like if you're trying to drive to Wyoming, you have to have a roadmap.
It has to be there.
Right.
And you're not going to look at the map once.
You're going to continuously look at the map until you get to the goal or the destination.
So it's constantly repeating and it's not annoying.
People do not remember.
They forget completely what you're saying.
So it's continuously.
It's posting in your chats.
It's having the goal set, putting it there in the morning, in the evening and at night.
So if you want something to happen, you have to consistently and concisely repeat it.
Yes.
And I think that, to circle back to the culture part of the conversation, that is the culture.
Like you are saying what our culture is when you say, this is what we're doing.
This is why we're doing it.
This is how we're doing it.
This is how you can participate.
That clarity, that invitation that is repeated is part of the culture.
And the high performers, we all want to be like doing stuff.
We're all very achievement oriented.
And so that vision of let's do it is inspiring to us.
I'm going to just kind of recap some of the takeaways that I can remember.
Then I want you to fill in the blanks or what I should have asked you and I didn't ask you.
So just because you're a good high performer doesn't mean that you're cut out to be a leader or that you will enjoy it.
If you're not cut out to be a leader of leaders, that means, if you were put in that role, you would not enjoy it.
Everyone should be successful in their role because work is where we develop ourselves.
Another thing is to, if you want to see if you're going to be a good leader of leaders like how helpful are you?
Are you looking at how you can help people outside of your immediate domain?
And another thing she's said is to, you know, repeat those key messages until you're sick.
It feels like you're sick of them, but people are not paying that close of attention.
They need to hear it and to think about your culture.
And your team culture is a microcosm of the larger culture.
So what else?
You know, you're talking to people who work hard, which we know is not everybody.
It's a minority, but people who are conscientious, high performers, interested in getting to speak with executive presence and to have influence.
What else would you say to them?
I'd say get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
I mean, I wasn't.
I am an extrovert, but I haven't always been comfortable in speaking in places where I don't know people.
Okay.
In fact, I hate that.
I don't like walking into a room and not knowing anybody.
I'll do it.
I will definitely do it.
But it's putting yourself in a position where you're uncomfortable and kind of going outside of the box.
Personal development, that's something too.
It wasn't until later on did I start realizing.
You know, when you're the one with all the answers, you got to move out of that room.
You have to.
Or if you're the one making the most money.
What does that mean?
Because everybody listening is that one.
They're the ones that have all the answers.
Then move into another room.
There's so many seminars whether I just came back from the Patrick but David, or listening to Tony Robbins.
And you know, you might think it's a little hokey, but if you walk away with one nugget, it's one more nugget.
And I'm telling you, you're probably not as successful as Tony Robbins.
Correct.
Probably not.
I mean, you might not like him.
You might think whatever.
But if you know you're going to learn something and there's so many people.
So get out of the room that you're in and get around people.
There's a whole other world out there for so long.
I think I was in this bubble of health insurance and didn't realize that there was an entire other world out there of more successful people that have done it, have done it better.
And the best thing about that is you can take it.
You know, I'm definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed.
The only thing I've ever been able to do is I can take an idea and I can make it mine and make it a little bit better.
I didn't reinvent the wheel.
All right.
Well, this has been so enlightening.
You're welcome, everybody.
Of course, Mira's link is in the show notes.
She's got this whole world of her podcast, Be a Leader I'd Like to Follow.
It's a great leadership podcast. podcast.
And if you need health insurance, you can also help you with that.
Everybody will catch you on the next episode.
Thank you.
So Mara's core message was, of course, that scaling is not glamorous.
It's about service.
It's about repetition.
It's about relevance.
And I wanted to recap the seven signs that someone may not be ready to lead leaders.
There's a big difference between being a team lead and and someone who leads leaders.
So I'm going to quickly recap them.
Number one, you're still focused on your own performance rather than the whole team's performance.
Number two, and this is a hard one that you're still trying to control, like you do with a smaller team instead of influencing a larger group of people.
Number three you avoid the hard conversations about accountability.
No one likes those conversations.
And number four, you think that repeating yourself is annoying, but it's necessary.
Or you believe that being a high performer automatically makes you leadership material.
Number six, you don't seek opportunities to serve, to help others without reward.
And number seven, you want to be the smartest person in the room.
So If you find yourself stepping into being a leader of leaders maybe you've just been promoted or you're managing multiple teams for the first time and you want to know how you are with your executive presence I have just the thing for you.
It's called the Executive Presence Scorecard.
It's an assessment you can do.
Simply email me at hello at speakupwithlaura.com and I will send it to you.
Have a fantastic day and I will catch you on the next episode.
