#44 Barbara Coloroso: The Kids Are Worth It｜The Knowledge Project

I've always said if it's not life threatening, morally threatening, or unhealthy, let it go.

Hello and welcome. I'm Shane Parrish, and this is another episode of The Knowledge Project, a podcast exploring the ideas, methods, and mental models that help you learn from the best of what other people have already figured out.

Learn more and stay up to date at fs .blog.

On the show today is Barbara Calisaro.

Barbara is a bestselling author on parenting, teaching, school discipline, bullying, grieving, nonviolent conflict resolution, and restorative justice, and so much more.

A friend of mine first introduced me to Barbara after she had her speak at a medical conference.

My friend said that Barbara was one of the most popular talks and people were hungry for more.

So I bought Barbara's book, Kids are Worth It, and after seeing all of my own parenting flaws exposed on the pages, I knew we had to chat.

While this episode is geared towards parents, I promise even if you don't have kids, you will learn a lot.

Chances are you want kids, you know somebody with kids, or you occasionally look after kids.

You'll come away with tools and techniques as well as a firm understanding of what kids need to be successful.

It's time to listen and learn.

I think I read that in the 60s you entered a convert to become a nun at the age of 17.

What led you to do that?

I entered a convent, a San Francisco convent, at 17 what do you really know, other than I wanted to work with kids with special needs, having been a lifeguard and taught special needs in swimming.

I had my dad's cousins, one was a monk, one was a priest, one was a nun, and the other was a woman who had seven kids.

So that was his cousin batch.

I grew up knowing them and when I talked to Sister Jean Marie about what I was thinking of, she suggested a Franciscan order in Milwaukee that also ran the Colletta school, which is where Joseph, I mean John Kennedy's sister was at.

So that's what got me to the Franciscan convent.

I'm glad I went and I'm really glad I left.

It was a good experience in my life for three years and I'm glad I left.

I have a husband and three kids and no, I didn't meet him in the convent.

He wasn't a priest.

I met him after I left the convent.

So that'll answer all the Catholics questions on that one.

I have three kids and three wonderful grandchildren as well.

Is that where you learned to teach at the convent?

Yes, I got my teaching degree after I left the convent, but I was pursuing it.

I was a year away when I left the order.

Anyone listening to me would know that we take three vows, chastity, obedience and poverty.

I grew up very poor, so that wasn't an issue.

Chastity, I was too young to know what I was really giving up with that, but the obedience was a difficult one for me because all along in all of my work I talk about raising people who will stand up for values and against injustices.

And at that point in my life it seemed like I was to be obedient to the bishop.

I know better now, but it just seemed like that and I was not going to do that.

It's obedient to the gospel and that's what I live today.

But yes, that was the beginning of my journey.

That's where I got most of my special ed training and then I left the convent and finished up at the University of Northern Colorado.

And that's where I met my husband at a migrant protest march with Cesar Chavez's group.

And I had been involved in civil rights as a nun in Milwaukee.

And then you started teaching.

Only everything you had found out about, what you learned about teaching turned out to be not true?

The area of behavior modification because that was big in the late 60s.

And that again, getting kids to do what I want them to do by using rewards and bribes and threats and punishment really went against actually what I was learning in my theology and philosophy courses which were required as a nun.

And they ran headlong into that with this is how we should bribe children and threaten them and reward them and punish them.

And so in my real world experience in the classroom, I realized that I would far better rely on my philosophy, sociology, and theology training to work with kids.

And I came up with three basic tenets.

One, kids are worth it.

I believe they're worth our time, energy, and resources to help them become all they can become.

Second, I won't treat them in a way I myself would not want to be treated if I wouldn't want it done to me.

I'm not going to do it to a child.

And the third, if it works, it must leave my dignity and the child's dignity intact.

Not just if it works or appears to work, but does it work and leave both of our dignity intact?

What do you mean by leaving your dignity intact?

That I'm not doing things to that child that would like a hitting a child.

I'm opposed to that because I think it destroys their sense of self worth and dignity.

And in return, I have harmed a child.

And I want to look at alternatives.

The title of my video, my very first one, was winning at parenting without beating your kids and winning at teaching without beating your kids.

And I mean that not only in a humorous way, but also in a serious way, because we still have 19 states in this country that allow corporal punishment.

But I'm talking more about the power struggles we get into with kids.

And this is where I felt that bribes and threats, rewards and punishments, which by the way, have become an insidious part of our culture, really interferes with raising an ethical human being.

And that's where I went back to my sociology and my theology and philosophy.

I want a child who will stand up for values against injustices when it costs them, not when they're getting rewarded for catching being good, because it's all about getting caught.

When the high status social bully says to all the other girls in grade eight, if you want to be in my group, which is a reward, don't eat lunch with the new girl.

I want your daughter to be the one to say that's mean, that's cruel, and have the courage and it does take courage to go sit next to the new girl, because she will do that at cost.

She is not going to get any scratches and stickers and stars lunch with the principal, which you'll probably get is almost goody two shoes or you're next.

And I want your sons, when their friends say, look at that kid over there, different skin color, religion, gender, physical or mental ability, the big five for hate crimes.

What makes a hate crime different than any other crime is criminal bullying.

And the kids say, let's go mess him up.

I want your son to be the one to say no when the burden's heavy, when his friends say, what do you chicken?

What I look both as a parent and as an educator is how do we raise a generation willing to stand up and speak out and step in and not be praise dependent and reward dependent.

Praise dependent reward dependent children make wonderful henchmen for bullies.

They will do the bully spinning because they want whatever reward that bully is dangling in front of.

I want young people who do the right thing when it's difficult to do.

And so what do we do in the classroom?

And what do we do at home?

That encourages that we give them opportunities to make choices and decisions and mistakes.

We hold them accountable and allow them to see that they truly do have an agency in their lives.

So what they do matters.

I want to do a huge deep dive into that.

What does it mean to hold them accountable?

What does it mean to make them own their decisions?

Can you walk me through what that means not only in the classroom for the teachers that they're listening, but also at home for the parents like myself who probably default to this sort of like reward punishment.

It's part of our culture.

Well, let's look at first giving them choices and decisions.

I don't say to a two -year -old, do you want to go to bed or not?

That's not a decision they get to make.

But I do say, do you want to go to bed now with your red pajamas or now with your blue pajamas?

And they show up red bottoms, blue tops.

I've always said, if it's not life threatening, morally threatening, or unhealthy, let it go.

Stick with the big stuff you need to get hysterical about.

And so they show up with that mix.

Then you constantly increase responsibilities and decisions, both at home and in the classroom, that give them the opportunity to make those choices, real choices.

So I go from red pajama, blue pajama to three outfits, pick one.

To here's your school clothes, here's your play clothes, pick something from your school clothes.

And regularly, our middle daughter would show up with a layered look.

All school clothes just definitely layered.

Now, I know a lot of parents who would say, go pick out an outfit.

Oh, you can't wear that one.

Now, it's not life threatening to a kid to wear the layered look.

It's painful for a parent, but it's not life threatening.

You let it go. It's with shoes on the wrong feet.

If they hurt, they'd move them.

But we worry, worry, worry.

I've yet to see a senior with shoes on the wrong feet.

But there's a lot of their early childhood worrying about it.

Now, it's letting go and saying, what truly can a kid do?

Age appropriate, ability appropriate.

And that'll be different for each child.

And our goal is to constantly increase responsibilities and decision making, decrease limits and boundaries so that when they leave our homes and our schools, they are truly responsible for all of their own behavior, and for their own choices in terms of mistakes they've made and how to fix them, and the like.

So you start with responsibilities and decision making.

And then after we've looked at that in all areas, I ask educators, do you have a plan from kindergarten through grade 12, in this district, to increase responsibilities and decision making and academic skills, work -study skills and affective skills?

Because that's how kids are successful.

And do you have that plan to constantly increase that?

Again, helping them develop what I call inner discipline, self -discipline.

And then I look at what do we do at home or at school if they make a mistake, create mischief, or cause mayhem?

Now, I must say right up front, any and all bullying, because it's an attack on another human being, is mayhem.

But there are degrees of mayhem.

And not all mayhem is bullying.

You can have a one -on -one fight that's so serious that it becomes mayhem.

So that aside, when kids make a mistake, bullying's not a mistake.

Calling somebody a gross name, dunking their head in the toilet is not a mistake.

And although people will say, oh, he made a big mistake.

No, he didn't. He created mayhem.

So let's look at the distinction there.

A child runs along, leaving art class, and his felt -tip marker has the lid off, and he's accidentally marking up the wall.

That's a mistake. Another child does tic -tac -toe on the wall.

That's mischief. Another child writes a gross term and another child's name.

That's mayhem. All three markings, but the intent is different.

So what I want young people to know, again, at home and at school, that if you make a mistake, it's a very simple formula.

Simple doesn't make it easy.

With a mistake, you own it, you fix it, you learn from it, and you move on.

So as educators, if we know, and I've seen it posted in classrooms after I've done lectures in schools, that whether you're a kindergarten kid or a 12th grader, if you make a mistake, your job is to own it, fix it, learn from it, and move on.

If it's mischief, we show them what they've done wrong, give them ownership of the problem, give them ways to solve it, leave their dignity intact.

If it's mayhem, we do three R's.

It's called restorative practices, restitution, resolution, and reconciliation.

In other words, you have to own and fix what you did, figure out how you're going to keep it from happening again, and find a way to heal with the person that you've truly harmed.

And so going back, if a child makes a mistake, a three -year -old drops a glass on the floor or a 16 -year -old in a lab class drops a beaker that has caustic material.

Both are mistakes. They were not intentional.

They have to own it.

They can't blame it on a crooked table.

They can't blame it on a slippery glass.

They have to fix it.

Now, a three -year -old cannot pick up glass, but they can run, get a bag, and you can pick up the glass while they hold the bag, and they can help mop up the floor.

The 16 -year -old can't pick up the caustic material, but he can get the hazmat kit, and you can demonstrate to the whole class how you pick up caustic material.

Then he has to replace the beaker, and then he has to do his experiment.

So, own it, fix it, learn from it, move on.

With a three -year -old, you say, which of these two plastic glasses would you like to use today?

That same principle of own it, fix it, learn from it, move on.

So we don't have to have a lot of confusing rules and levels of discipline.

If a kid dunks a kid's head in the toilet, which is mayhem, I am not going to give him a warning, or her a warning.

I mean, we're going to treat it as mean and cruel right away.

How would you handle that?

With a child dunking another kid's head in the toilet?

Yeah, or writing on the wall with the name and the...

Okay, the name on the wall, restitution, own that you did it, and own and fix it, so you've got to erase it.

Now, let's say they said it online as well.

They have to go in and try to get that off, which is almost impossible.

It can be scrubbed, but that's expensive.

But you can also have the child send out a message.

I said these ugly things, so you don't repeat it.

But I said these ugly things about this person.

What I said was mean and cruel.

If you received it, would you please delete it?

If you sent it on to others, would you send this note on?

It's a humbling experience for them to do that.

But if it's on the wall, then they have to scrub it off and own that they did it, fix it.

Second is figure out how you're going to keep it from happening again.

And most kids will say, oh, I won't do that again.

I said, well, that's good.

That's what you won't do.

I want you to tell me what you will do.

And this is where your wisdom as an educator or parent will come in.

And they say, well, I don't know.

I said, well, one of the things you could do if he was on the computer is not use your computer for a period of time till you can demonstrate with supervision after that that you can use it in a way that's civil and savvy, smart and kind.

And so and another thing you can do is I never demand an apology.

I can say, well, you can own what you did to the person you did it to because you asked for an apology.

You get one of three kinds, own story, real heartfelt or I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

They keep doing it again and again.

It's like some people use confessions.

Some people listening will have no idea that I'm talking about or they will say, I'm sorry you were offended, which by the way is not an apology.

What I do say to them is you need to let them know that you did this and that you're fixing it.

And that I do demand.

I don't demand an apology, but they must fix what they did.

And other things, like let's say they called somebody a name sitting in class and it was overheard by me.

I say, no more not here.

Never. That was mean.

That was cruel. And this is safe Harvard for every child in this classroom and they need to to fix it.

And they say, well, I just won't call her name.

Listen, no, you're going to hear some options.

You can sit in the front of the class.

You can sit in the back of the class for the rest of the term.

You cannot sit near her giving them options.

Obviously, they're not coming up with this, but I give them options that they can choose to do.

For some kids, if it's serious enough, you need to take a different English class so that kid is not tormented.

The rest of this term, now what?

Let's have lunch with my friends.

Oh, that's a bummer.

Maybe you'll think about not calling anybody gross names because it meant you had to change your English class.

Does that eventually foster a sense of responsibility in kids for their actions?

That's the whole thing is from red pajama, blue pajama, through all of this, both discipline and choices.

You are helping young people say that I have agency in my life, that what I do matters and that I can affect change in the world.

It can be for good or for ill, and that's a choice I get to make.

I want them to see they do have choices that they can make.

The third step is probably the most difficult, to heal with the person you've harmed when the person who was targeted is ready.

Now, if you dunk the kid's head in the toilet, he may never be ready to meet with you.

That's what that child needs to live with.

The kid who did the dunking has to live with is that kid doesn't even want you around.

But others, when it was called a gross name, it says sit down with the kid and I'm there.

It's not conflict resolution.

That's totally separate.

That's done with conflict, not with bullying.

When it is, I say, okay, first thing you have to do, and I've talked to the kid who was targeted.

I give them tools for standing up and speaking out when it happens to them.

We want to help them.

We want to empower them.

But I also feel that what the other person did was mean and cruel and bullying we stop.

So when they sit down together, the bully has to say, this is what I did, often what a target wants to hear is the bully just admitting they did it.

And if they have a smirk on their face when they say it, I say, we're done.

We're done. The event, they don't have any remorse for it yet.

So I stop it. Oh, but my mom won't let me use the computer until I get through this process.

Well, that's a bummer.

Come back without the smirk on your face.

But most of the time they're ready.

And they say, I did call you a gross name and I regret that.

And this is how I want to fix it.

I'm going to sit in the back of the class and the other child might say, oh, you don't have to do that.

Just don't call me names.

But they might say good.

Sit in the back of the class.

Then they say, you know what?

I'd like to invite you to sit at the lunch table with us because this group of girls and myself locked you out of the lunch room or a chat room.

And we'd like to invite you.

Now the targeted kid might say, thank you.

I'd love to sit with you.

But they might not.

They might say what Steve Seskin said in that powerful song that he and Alan Shamlin wrote and Peter Paul and Mary made famous.

Don't laugh at me. Don't laugh at me, don't call me names.

Don't take your pleasure from my pain.

And he says, I'm not asking you to be my friend, but is it too much to ask?

Don't laugh at me. Don't call me names.

And so the targeted child might say, I don't want to sit at lunch with you.

Thank you for the offer.

Most targeted kids are kind, caring people.

So they might say thank you, but I don't want to do that.

I just need to know that when I sit in English class, I'm not going to be called a gross name.

When I go online, I don't see my name.

I'm not locked out of a chat room.

This is what I need.

In restorative practices for that kind of scenario of mayhem, what we do is we empower the targeted kid and we humble, not humiliate, I'm not into humiliation, but we humble the person who did the mean and cruel act.

I don't care whether it's kids at home, because we do have sibling bullying, or kids at school.

The process is basically the three R's, restitution, resolution, and reconciliation.

And they need us to help them get through that.

The middle one, our son had made a mistake.

He made a goal for the opposing team in a major tournament.

And people on the sidelines were yelling and screaming.

He came out of goalie, went on the field, fell down on his shoelaces untied and got up, grabbed the ball and went down as his teammate is screaming, no, Joe, no, Joe, this is our goal.

And Joey was ready to make that goal.

And he made a beautiful left of the goal.

And then realized it was on the wrong net.

His coach handled that beautifully.

He demonstrated owning mistakes.

He said, Joseph, get over here.

And Joe walks over, he says, I'm sorry, coach, I'm sorry.

He said, I don't want it.

I'm sorry. That was a beautiful goal.

Now get out there and get one for us.

You see, it's the coach said, own it.

Don't blame it on the fact you came out of goalie.

Don't blame it on the fact you fell on your shoelaces.

Just own it. I made a goal for the other team.

Fix it, learn from it, move on.

So we can use that in our everyday life with all ages of children after about age two, even adults, all stages of our lives.

Does that differ at all?

If you have siblings and like conflict between siblings, conflicts, normal, it's natural.

It's necessary. How should parents think about handling that?

Like, say you had, I don't know, seven to nine year olds at home and they're over the TV show.

What you need to understand is, as Liz Osher said, conflict is inevitable, violence is not.

So our job as wising, caring parents is to teach them to handle that conflict non -violently.

Two kids fighting over a TV program.

I talk about three kinds of families, the brick wall, the jellyfish, and the backbone.

The brick wall goes stop and stop and stop at turn that set off.

Nobody's watching and it points a finger at them, which shows them that we can't handle our own conflicts.

It's when adult is around and they stop us.

And that doesn't serve them well when we're not around.

Jellyfish goes, oh, please, your brothers and sisters, you're supposed to love one another.

Don't do this to me.

That doesn't help them either.

Backbone parent understands the slower you walk, the quieter you are, the better your chances of being over before you get there.

And if it's still going on, you just take the remote, turn the set off, model it for them and say you're both fighting.

Don't say, give me your side of the story, give me your side of the story.

I've never gotten a new story out of two editorials, so I'm not going to even bother.

So I say, you're fighting.

You may turn this set back on as soon as you both have a plan.

Now, they never say it nicely, oh, mom, we need a plan, so don't count on it.

But one of three things will happen.

They'll share, they'll both get up and leave it, or one of them will come up with a plan they both can live with.

As long as the one who came up with the plan does not use brute force or intimidation.

I mean, if one says, I'm going to beat you over the head, you say, that's not a good plan.

I mean, there's a reason we're hanging with kids.

They're going to grow up, but we have to be there to raise them unless we get lord of the flies.

So I say to them, nope, that won't work.

Come up with another plan.

See, I haven't said, what?

You can't hit your brother.

You don't get hysterical.

You just know that's not going to work.

But if one says, you let me watch this one today, you can have two tomorrow.

Now, you and the older kid know tomorrow, Saturday, nothing's on, don't say a word.

This is not the teachable moment.

It comes the next day when that little one goes, it's not fair.

There's nothing on.

I say, I noticed you're given into your big brother a lot.

Would you like to learn a few good lines and you teach them the lines?

Like, I'm willing to let you watch this program today.

If I can have this one on Monday, this one on Tuesday, and I want it in writing, you teach that little one, do that.

Nobody's going to walk all over them.

So you give them both the tools to handle their conflicts and they'll have to practice and they'll make mistakes and you keep working with them.

And, you know, they go through this process and then 10 minutes later, they might be fighting again and you walk in and you turn the TV off and pretty soon they get the idea of mom, we can do it.

We can handle it. I know, I know we need a plan.

They get it, but it will serve them well at home and at school.

And so that's real important that we teach them that.

However, sibling bullying is something we have ignored for too long.

There's a fascinating research project done by Volpe out of England, a 20 year longitudinal study that showed that children who are targeted by their siblings are at higher risk for being targeted by their peers, higher risk for alcohol and drug abuse, for self harm activities and depression in the later

teen years. And it's easy to see why, but we dismiss it.

So you saw the fighting scene, but this is different.

The 10 year old has the five year old's arm up his back.

We're not talking a yoga pose.

The kids in sick screaming.

You rush in there. And as soon as your oldest sees you, she drops her brother's arm and starts comforting him.

And we say, what are you screaming like that for?

And the way your 10 year old looks at the five year old, cause bullying has to do with intimidation.

He knows right now, if he says anything in front of you, when you leave, his sister's going to wail on him harder.

So he makes a choice.

Oh, nothing, mom, nothing.

And we said, well, then quit screaming like that.

We have just retargeted the target.

But step back a moment.

When you walked in there, you saw something you wished you hadn't seen.

You saw your daughter smirk before she saw you as she had that arm up the back.

She had the biggest smirk on her face.

The smirk is an involuntary response when you're hurting someone and getting pleasure from their pain.

And that's what bullying is about a conscious willful deliberate activity intended to harm.

Will you get pleasure from somebody else's pain?

And that has to be stopped.

What should that mother do?

Ah, that's the restorative practices, restitution.

You were hurting your brother and you seem to be getting pleasure from that with that smirk on your face.

So you need to own and fix it, figure out how you're going to keep it from happening again and heal with him when he's ready for it.

I'll take it back a little bit here with somebody bopping a kid over the head with a toy and smiling and same kind of thing.

Own it. I grabbed my brother's arm and hurt him.

Sometimes that's all the brother wants is affirmation that the kid owned that they really were doing something mean and cruel.

Fix it. Oh, how are you going to fix it?

Well, this is tough.

One of the things you could do, and that's where your wisdom comes in again.

One of the things you could do is go over into your room.

It's not time out at this point, but into your room and let your brother have the rest of the house and any toys in it for a period of time.

Oh, but mom, you need to do something.

If you can come up with something better, that gives him some peace and quiet.

I'm open. But otherwise, you need to leave him be.

It could be for an hour, depend on age, an hour, two hours.

And he just has free room in the house and you can play in your room.

Is that a punishment or a consequence?

It's a consequence for what you did.

You harmed your brother.

And we can talk about time out later and the effectiveness of that.

Another thing you might say is that you need to sit in the third row of the car if there's a third row.

I don't like the third row.

Oh, that's a bummer.

Maybe you'll think about not bopping your brother in the nose next time.

But you come up with something that allows the other kid who's been harmed to have some peace and quiet.

I also go up to the kid whose arm has been hurt, and I rub it.

I say, well, that's awful.

That must have really hurt.

And when your sister goes to do that, I want to let him know that I know he was hurt.

But I also say to him, when you see your sister coming, fold your arms like this so she can't get them.

It's okay to raise your voice and say, leave me alone.

That hurts. It's okay to get attention.

I want young people to know you get out of an elevator if you're uncomfortable and not worry about what anybody else says.

See, all these tools help them become very capable adults as well.

So all these are learning tools, using this stuff of everyday life.

So restitution, resolution, how are you going to keep this from happening again?

And this is where I like to take a moment with young people and teach them three things.

I draw a circle with a line down and I say, this is you.

This is your brother.

Now you control half of this.

Yeah, but he wouldn't give me the toy.

Okay, you can ask him for the toy.

But once it goes over that line, it's an invitation to him and he can accept it or reject it.

But he has control on that side.

You control half, your brother controls half.

Second lesson, you influence 100%.

How you ask your brother for that toy matters.

Popping him over the head will radically reduce the chances of him being willing to share.

Grabbing his arm and pulling it up reduces the chance that he's willing to cooperate with you at all.

And I try to use some humor in there with it as well, but I want them to understand that that didn't work.

So you can influence it.

And maybe you didn't think about this, but maybe you could offer him your favorite toy.

And you might see a Grinnis at that point or two of your second favorite toys and give her ways that she can influence how she responds to that.

And then the third lesson is no is a complete sentence.

If your brother, you've asked him nicely, you offered the toys if he says no, you have to go find something else to do.

Now, think about it.

You teach seven and eight year olds, you control half, your brother controls half.

You influence 100 % no is a complete sentence how that will serve both boys and girls when they start dating.

See, we are giving them in the process of all of this tools to handle both conflict and mean and cruel activities in their lives to empower them.

I also want to empower them.

And that's where red pajama blue pajama comes in and giving them choices and decisions and is saying to them, you do have agency when that little girl is left out, you can go over and sit with her.

But mom, all the other girls will pick on me.

Okay, well, sometimes it's a cost.

And maybe one of the things you need to do is tell an adult that other girls, but I don't want to snitch.

It's not snitching.

Those girls are hurting that other little girl.

It's telling it's not tattling.

It's reporting not reading.

If somebody's getting hurt, then you need to report it.

What's the difference between tattling and telling it?

It's telling is getting somebody in trouble.

Telling is getting somebody out of trouble.

If it's ever both and bullying is I need to know for instance, you know, those self appointed playground monitors, Mrs.

See Mrs. See john is on the swing.

He's not supposed to be on the swing.

He didn't share yesterday.

That's tattling. If it's okay for him to be on the swing, he leaps off the swing.

His coat gets caught.

He's hanging on this swing.

Tell me that's going to get him out of trouble.

Now, if he's not supposed to be on the swing, and he's hanging on the swing, it's both I need to know five year olds get that.

I've had little ones come up.

Mrs. See Mrs. See I say in and out or both.

And sometimes they scrunch up their face and walk away.

And they go in trouble.

And they get it. I say thank you for figuring that out.

And but I've also had them come up.

Mrs. See Mrs. See I say in out or both makes it I don't know I can't figure it out.

I say well, tell me we'll figure it out together.

Or sometimes they come up and say Mrs.

See I say thank you for telling me that's going to get this kid out of trouble.

So reinforcing that at a very young age, because we have this idea snitches get stitches and stuff.

And so if it's mean and cruel, number one, we have to keep a target safe number two, a witness safe.

Number three, we deal with the kid who's doing the mean and cruel activity, even if it means delayed justice, like if a kid comes up and says to me, those kids are calling me names.

If I would go directly to those kids right there, they would retaliate against her and make it worse.

So then kids don't tell.

But if I say to her, that was an ugly thing to happen to you.

Let me give you some tools for handling that.

But I also need you to know I'm not going to deal with it right now, because I need to keep you safe.

But often is continuous repeated over time.

And we watch the kids like a hawk and we'll catch them being mean and cruel.

And then we nail them on it.

But I also want to give her ways to stand up when kids are being mean.

I thank her for telling me that she's being her own witness.

Now, if another kid comes up and says, those boys are doing these mean things to this other boy, say thank you for telling me.

I know it took courage to tell.

And I promise you, nobody will know you told me.

And I say to him, I need you to know that I won't deal with this situation.

But I'm going to watch him.

Where's it happening?

When's it happening?

Now, if the kids have the toilet and he's dripping a urine, I deal with that right on the spot because the evidence is there and the smirks are on their faces.

What sort of tools would you give that girl to handle the name calling?

Being able to, well, we have some lousy tools.

I'll give you those first.

Many anti -bullying programs will say, just tell them please stop, that hurts.

That works when you're dealing with a friend who inadvertently said something.

It was the wrong time, wrong place.

It happens to all of us.

It was the wrong time, wrong place, wrong situation.

And the other kids face drops and gets tears in her eyes.

And you say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

What does a bully do when they know that they have hurt another child?

They keep going. They get more aggressive when the other shows any hurt.

It's a difference between teasing and taunting.

Teasing is laughing with, taunting is laughing at.

And if they're taunting her, one of the worst things she could do is turn around and say, please stop, that hurts.

It's like putting a red flag in front of a ball.

Oh, good, we hurt her.

See, ha, ha. And you don't want to be aggressive.

Well, it takes one to know one because bullies are cowards.

But they're not ignorant.

They picked on somebody they knew they could get.

So I'm going to teach the young girl how to roll her shoulders around and down and stand strong, not in a passive posture, stand strong and in an assertive voice, be able to say, that was mean, that was cruel.

Not you're mean, you're cruel.

Call the deed, not the kid.

That was mean, that was cruel, that was bigoted, that was racist, that was sexist, that was ugly, that was yuck.

I tried to give them as many adjectives as possible so they can choose from them.

I don't need this. I'm out of here and getting themselves out of there.

For older kids and for adults when they're in a situation, maybe even at a family gathering with an adult sibling targeting them still, you roll your shoulders around and down, stand strong.

And you say that comment was beneath both of us.

Is that effectively labeling it?

Yeah, labeling the behavior, not the kid.

Right. And that comment was beneath both of us says, I'm not getting in the mud with you and I'm inviting you to be bigger than you are right now because I believe you can be.

You know, that revenge is so quick but that doesn't help.

The Chinese said it so beautifully, those who seek revenge had bested two graves because they eat you up too.

So we want assertive lines, not aggressive or passive.

And I've got to say our climate today of adult discourse doesn't help our kids at all with these virulent attacks and dehumanization of another human being, which is what verbal bullying does.

So we need to walk our talk and talk our walk.

So I ask adults, how do you treat higher health?

How do you treat the new neighbor who looks different than you, has a different faith tradition, different skin color, different languages, their first language?

Your children are watching.

How do you treat that person moving through the grocery store slower than you'd like them to?

And how do you deal with the bigoted relative at the family gathering?

Now we all have bigoted relatives on the family tree.

Some just aren't on the branches yet.

They're right there at the dinner table spewing bigoted comments thinly disguised as a joke.

And we need to be able to say I'm bothered by that, or that was bigoted, or that was racist.

When all the other relatives roll their eyes and say, what can't you take a joke?

Not that kind. And you know you've had an impact when you walk back in the dining room and everybody shuts up.

But you've had an impact and you've had a greater impact on your children when your mother says, it's Uncle George, he's old.

Hey, I'm 70. Old is never an excuse for bigotry and intolerance.

And I think your children need to hear you saying to your mother in an uncomfortable situation, Mom, I don't want my children to ever believe that it's okay to make those comments that are bigoted and racist or sexist, no matter how old we are.

Now you do that, you stand up when it's uncomfortable to do it.

The chances of your daughter sitting with the new girl or your son getting the other boys to stop has been greatly increased.

When I go back to something you said about the brick wall family, the jellyfish family, and the backbone family, can you expand on this?

Yes, brick wall my way or the highway uses a lot of bribes and threats, rewards and punishments as a way of controlling the child.

And it leaves children with the inability to truly think for themselves or they will rebel.

It's like and they use punishment a lot.

And when you punish a child, they basically rebel.

They fight back, they flee, or they turn inside themselves because they're afraid.

What's the difference between punishment and consequence again?

And discipline. The difference between discipline, yes.

Discipline has consequences.

Punishment made too.

But I always say we need to use the French term RSVP, repondezvous play, which means please respond.

Discipline is not something we do to a child.

It's something we do with a child.

Punishment's adult oriented.

It's imposed from without.

It arouses resentment and teaches kids to respond that fear or fight back or flee.

Discipline, on the other hand, if you go back to its Latin roots means to give life to a child's learning.

So consequences need to be RSVP, reasonable, simple, valuable and practical.

But let's look at discipline again.

If it's a mistake, own it, fix it, learn from it, move on.

If it's mischief, and this is where consequences, you say, but why do we need discipline when it's a mistake?

Because discipline is giving life to a child's learning.

Whether it's that 16 year old with the beaker or the three year old with the glass, giving life to their learning.

So discipline is an integral part of what we do with our kids.

Let me give you an example of, use my son again, when it's mischief.

This is where consequences come in.

Our son did something that wasn't on the prove behavior list on a field trip.

He broke the beaver bait jar at the Natural History Museum.

Could have been worse.

Could have been an irreplaceable dinosaur, like we're very lucky.

Very replaceable beaver bait jar.

He was not punished.

He was not paddled, which is punishment.

He wasn't sent to the principal's office, which could have been punishment, depending on how the principal handled it.

He didn't have to write 550 times.

I will not break a beaver bait jar, which is punishment.

And he didn't get banned from the next field trip, which by the way, sad to say as a special ed teacher, that happens an awful lot to kids with special needs, and then they never learned to go on a field trip.

But those were all punishment.

He didn't have any of that.

Instead, his teacher wisely said, Joe, you have a serious problem here.

I know you can handle it.

He had to write a letter to the Natural History Museum.

He had to replace the beaver bait jar, which was a trip unto itself.

For those who are listening who don't know, beaver bait is female beaver urine.

He will never break another beaver bait jar.

And before he go on the next field trip, there were conditions.

He had to have all that done and have in writing how he would handle his feet, hands and mouth creatively and constructively on the next field trip.

He was shown what he'd done wrong, given ownership of the problem, given ways to solve it, left his dignity intact.

Did he have fun? Yes.

And this really galls people who are brick wall and into punishment, how dare I can have a good time fixing a mess he made.

I have worked with administrators who have truly disciplined the child, but since they're not hanging by their toenails at noon in public display and in pain, somebody will say you didn't do anything to him.

No, I'm not doing something to them.

That's punishment. I'm doing something with them.

Yes, he had fun. The Saturday morning got up early, got his little knapsack ready.

And then the game warden very patiently explained to Joe how he had to collect female beaver urine.

His eyes got huge. He looked at me.

He looked at his dad who was now smiling.

And he said to the game warden, I have to do that.

I thought the game warden's comment was classic.

He said, well, I didn't break the beaver bait jar.

And just decide Joseph senior prom was held at the Natural History Museum.

What a fitting end to his public education.

But in that experience, he was truly disciplined, shown what he'd done wrong, given ownership of the problem, given ways to solve it, left his dignity intact.

And that's what we need to do with discipline, whether it's a mistake, it's mischief or mayhem.

And always with mayhem, you go to those three R's in discipline.

And through that, is that how we teach children how to make better decisions and own the outcomes of those decisions?

Well, it holds them accountable for what they've done.

It teaches them that they do matter what they do matters and how they fix it matters.

And it gives them the opportunity to fix it and heal with people if they've harmed any of them.

He got along quite well with it.

The game warden went out and did other adventures with them, you know, and helped out.

What are the other things as parents that we can do to help our kids learn to make age appropriate decisions and prepare them for the world where they have to make their own decisions?

It's looking around every situation and saying, is this a choice he can make?

And we have to give up some of this efficiency control.

Well, we've got to get it done right now.

Sometimes we have to sit back and say it's going to take a little bit longer for him to fix his own lunch with us helping him fix it.

But pretty soon he's going to be able to fix his own lunch on his own, which is our goal.

You know, and you're going to have mistakes.

I remember my oldest daughter doing the laundry because she was old enough to learn to do it.

And she put all the whites in and put bleach in.

However, her brother had taken off his red shirt with his T -shirt at the same time.

So it was white on the outside.

Inside was a red T -shirt.

Everything turned pink, including her dad's on.

Oh, no. Everything.

And so Dawn's underwear was pink.

And I said, well, one thing we can do is put it through the wash again without the red shirt.

But you got to fix your brother's shirt.

And now she could have blamed it on him and said, have you had to put it in the laundry with the separate?

No. You know, hey, you did it.

You did it. And I, quite frankly, I helped her out with buying him a new shirt, but, uh, cause it was a mistake.

It was an honest mistake.

So I helped her out, but she went to her dad and said, dad, you have pink underwear.

He said, well, it'd be different to have different colors.

But it's, it's, we look at it and okay, it was a mistake.

Had she put a whole load of blue and red clothes in and purposely, because they were her brothers and purposely put bleach in it, she would have a bigger problem.

That would have been a menacing thing.

That would have been mayhem.

In Ted matters, you know, but what I want to do is make it simple for parents, not complicated, but understand that simple doesn't mean easy.

And along with that, I can't impress upon you how important it is to try to steer away from all the bribes and threats and rewards and punishments.

They interfere with ethical behavior and Alfie Cohen said that bribes and threats of the flip side of the same coin.

They don't buy us much.

I like to go one step further.

I think they bankrupt the spirit of our children.

Cause now we have kids saying, well, what's in it for me?

And we'll never break the cycle of, of violence related to bullying.

If everything's in what's in it for me, because it costs you to stand up and to speak out.

So it trying to put it all together and using simple things that we can do every day, whether it's dealing with conflict or sibling bullying, none of us like to think our kids are bullying, but we have to look at it.

If it is a best works on that face, we need to shut that down and help the targeted kid be able to stand up and be strong.

What tools would you give parents trying to put their kids to bed if there, if there's no sort of like threats or punishments and they, you know, you have, let's say an eight to 10 year old and they don't want to go to bed or they refuse to go to sleep or by the time they were that old, you've already

gotten into a routine.

Routines are critical.

And I don't mean brick wall routine where it's eight o 'clock and you're going to bed no matter what bedtime doesn't have to be a nightmare.

I wrote about that in kids are worth that whole chapter.

It doesn't have to be when they're little.

My husband and I would take turns putting, I had three kids in three and a half years.

And so we would take time, time putting them down the littlest one.

We went to bed the latest, you know, it's a busy house.

I was holding them, nursing them and stuff.

But one of us would do the dishes and the other would put the kids down.

One of us would get a break.

We're not sure which one on some nights, but it's a matter of I stayed with them and, and just would hum or we'd have a little routine.

Often it's, you know, being grateful for what has happened during the day and that reading a story and having a calmness about the bedtime.

Also, if you have a child who has a learning disability, I'm a special ed teacher.

If you rub the bottom of their feet, the Chinese knew it well, the eyes of the wind of the soul, but the feet of the doorway to the body and you can firmly rub the bottom of their feet.

It does two things.

One, it calms them down and two, they can't get out of bed when you're hanging onto their feet.

And then you, you can rub their backs and make bedtime a pleasant time.

Instead, what we tend to do is get a, first of all, we asked him, did you brush your teeth?

Which is silly. That's a silly question.

You know, a kid has cookie all over his face.

Did you eat that cookie?

If they need to brush their teeth, so do you.

And so when they're little, you go out and brush your teeth.

They're brushing theirs.

We're sure we get it all done good.

Um, I just had my, I was with one of our grandkids, a seven -year -old, and he's into rules right now because seven -year -olds are.

And, uh, I was brushing my teeth.

I finished before him.

He said, grandma, you didn't do it the full time.

What did you say to that?

So, you know, you do it with them and you really want them.

And then pretty soon they'll be able to take it over themselves and care for their teeth.

And the dentist will have talked to them about teeth rotting out of your head, that kind of stuff.

So you teach them, you teach them and you model it for you.

Make bed time a pleasant time.

Instead of get back in the bed, get back in the bed, get back in the bed, how many times I have to get back in the bed and you start screaming and then they finally fall asleep and you feel like the bad witch from the West because now they're asleep and you're awful and you've been screaming at them.

So taking time, I guarantee you they will want you to put them in bed at 17.

I guarantee you that.

So if you take that time when they're young and get them in the habit.

Now, um, the seven -year -old occasionally likes to still be tucked in, but the, the 10 year old and the nine year old, my grandkids I'm thinking about, uh, will have want to say good night to you and they read and reading.

Not, not on tools, not on the electronic tools, uh, a real book.

There's a reason for that.

The blue light, um, from the electronic tools are not good for helping put them to sleep.

They also can be harmful to their eyes.

So reading a real book will often times, uh, they'll have to read that until they fall asleep or is there a like a bedtime?

Well, you have a bedtime, but it's a time to get ready to go to bed.

And, and you know, within a half hour there's they're out and you haven't screamed, you haven't yelled, you check in on them, you turn the light out because the book is on their face and, you know, making it a pleasant time.

Now for some kids, especially kids who may have, uh, some learning disabilities or some, uh, body issues, um, the massage, the talking to them, I, um, my graduate work was in autism and with them, it was a, a, a, a friction oil, but rub firmly to come.

You don't want the tickle tickle because they can't handle that, but the firm massaging, uh, of them and helping them relax instead of it becoming a battle because you both moves for now.

Do all these techniques work with autistic kids as well as ADHD kids and regular kids or are there different ways to apply them?

The work that's in kids are worth it was originally written for kids with special needs.

And then I was asked to write the book and what I found was, uh, with kids with special needs in that backbone that gives you flexibility.

You don't get from a ridge or brick wall, but it also gives you structure.

You don't get from a jellyfish model.

And we need as parents and educators to have both flexibility and an environment that's conducive to creative, constructive, and responsible activity.

Um, with kids with special needs, we often have to have, uh, a smaller distance between the vertebrae and a whole lot more vertebrae.

So we break it into steps.

Um, and know that there are moments with kids with special needs when they would be horribly frustrated and, and you're worn out.

Um, and making sure that we get a break as parents and little breast, but, but also to understand that your kid is struggling at school and that's a lot of struggle for them.

Uh, and you want to be very tuned in.

If a kid says the kids are calling me names and bullying can be devastating.

How should a parent respond to that when their kid comes home and says that, uh, or hints at the fact that they might be getting bullied at school?

I stop everything I'm doing and sit down and say, talk to me about it.

Tell me about a very soft voice.

Talk to me about it.

Tell me about it. And I listen and I say, what can you and I do?

Oh, mom, don't tell anybody.

You'll tell me, they'll make it worse.

Kids tend to know that, that if schools aren't handling it well, it will make it worse.

And that, but there are things that we need to know.

I'm an educator. If somebody bullying tends to happen under the radar of adults.

So if a parent would come to me and say, uh, that my son said, the boys are calling you names in the bathroom.

Then I change the bathroom schedule.

I make sure there's one at a time kind of thing.

And then I keep an eye on those boys.

And I say to the parent, I'm going to keep an eye on those boys.

I thank the young boy for telling.

And I also say to him, nobody's ever going to know you told.

And nobody, I tell a parent, nobody's going to know you told.

I'm going to watch them, which means I can't deal with it.

What they did in the past.

But I tell you that the snow, the playground, the lunchroom, we're going to be on our toes watching for that.

And once we're tuned into that, we usually can catch them doing that.

We can nail them. And I do, I, you know, normal conflict.

We're going to have lots of that and we just get through it and help them get through it.

But bullying is our job to stop and, uh, deal with it both for the targeted person and the bully and the not so innocent bystanders who joined in in your book.

Kids are worth it. You talk about the difference between doing good and feeling good.

Can you elaborate on that for everybody listening?

And what does that mean?

And how does it change how you parent?

Um, I want to teach young kids to do good as James naturally say, because good is good to do that.

You do it because it's the right thing to do.

Uh, here, he goes on to say, spurn the threats of heaven and bribes the hell you do it because it's right thing to do, which brings us back to bribes and threats, rewards and punishments.

And looking at the alternatives to those, um, what to do instead.

Uh, feeling good about yourself.

It's about yourself.

When kids understand they have agency in their life, when they sit next to the new girl, no one can take away how good they feel knowing what they did for that other little girl.

No one can take that away.

Uh, but if you bribe kids, then it's an external approval that will help them feel good.

And I don't want external approval.

So let's look for a moment at what to do instead of bribes and threats and rewards and punishments because they are in city as part of our culture.

Um, you know, it's again, if I don't get caught, what I did wasn't bad.

If I have to be caught being good and remember nice kids often get caught being good in the classroom, but they're not been kind to the new girl or to the child with special needs of the child with an allergy.

I'm not into nice. I'm into kind.

Uh, and kind often happens.

Uh, I will walk up to a child and say, I want to thank you for inviting that new girl to sit with you.

Um, she feels a part of the class now.

So that's part of the alternative.

So let's look at what the alternatives are.

Instead of bribes and threats, rewards and punishment.

What kids need are encouragement, feedback, a sense of deep caring and discipline.

We've already done the discipline so we can look at the others encouragement.

Praise can only occur at the end of a deed done the way you want it done.

It's highly judgmental encouragement can occur anytime a kid falls flat on his face.

How do you praise him?

You have bell? Well, no, you, you, you say to him, come on buddy, pick yourself up.

I know you can do it.

My six critical life messages.

I believe in you. I trust in you.

I know you can handle it.

You're listened to, you're cared for.

You're very important to me.

Children need to hear that in lots of different ways.

And one of them is to say, come on buddy, pick yourself up.

You can do it. Encouraging children.

They also need feedback.

Now feedback comes in three C's, compliments, comments and constructive criticism, compliment.

Best compliment you give any child as an educator or a parent is thank you.

Thank you for walking the dog.

He's been inside all day.

Look how happy he is to be outside.

Thank you for watering that plant.

It was really wilted and now it's standing strong.

Thank you for inviting that new boy to lunch.

So he feels like as a new kid, he fits in already.

Now notice how I did that.

You stroke the deed, not the kid.

Be very specific to the deed and let the child know what his or her behavior did for the dog, a plant or another human being.

And you say, but can I ever get excited?

Oh sure, the three -year -old wants you to wave bye -bye to the bowel movement.

You wave bye -bye to the bowel movement.

The five -year -old makes it down the hill without the training wheels touching.

You did it. Do you see how different that is?

And if you make it down the hill, we'll go to Dairy Queen and he doesn't make it down the hill.

He'll lie to you. He'll throw the bike down and say, I don't care about any stupid Dairy Queen.

But you say you did it or you didn't come up.

Pick yourself up. You can try it again.

You go back to that encouragement.

And your 16 -year -old makes it around the parking lot without popping the clutch.

You did it. It's okay to get excited, but it's about your child's excitement.

Praise dependent kids can't get excited to give them permission.

Do you like this? Is this okay?

So we want to stroke the deed, not the kid.

Be very specific to the deed and let the child know what impact they've had.

That affirms their agency again.

The second C is comments.

Good, solid instruction.

We have to teach our kids how to add, subtract, diagram a sentence.

That'll date me. We have to teach them how to be kind and caring.

We have to teach them those things.

We have to teach them to have a healthy regard for themselves, including their own sexuality and a healthy regard for others, including their sexuality.

We have to teach them to be cyber savvy, cyber civil, and cyber safe.

We never had to do that a generation ago.

But today, we do have to do that.

And those are things that as parents, we need to teach our young people.

So that's in the instruction, the comment section.

The last C is constructive criticism, which we're so afraid to give kids in a praise -oriented culture.

We're afraid to disappoint them.

I don't use a red pen at school.

I use a green one. And I check all the answers that are correct.

And I say to a kid, your job is to fix all the other ones.

So they get a green mark too.

And that says to a kid, I believe you can do it.

I don't say to a kid, that's wrong.

I usually say that's not right, because it's bigger than right wrong.

One of my books is just because it's not wrong, doesn't make it right.

And it's teaching kids to think and act ethically.

And ended I talk about the fact that two kids making up a game only two can play because they don't want the new girl to play with them because she played with the other girl yesterday.

Now there's nothing wrong with making up a game only two can play.

But it's not right if your intent is to exclude somebody.

So your intent matters.

So I say that's not right.

And I invite them to fix it.

So it is bigger than right wrong.

So we want them to have constructive criticism.

I say you can fix it.

I know you can fix it.

But how we treat an A plus will give our kids a clue if they can come home and tell you they wreck the family car they've been targeted at school or they worse than that we're we're targeting somebody.

You see, we need our children to be able to tell us about the good the bad and the ugly.

Now praise the many kids are afraid to tell you they're afraid to take a risk.

They're afraid they won't take advanced trig because they might get a lower grade.

And I like good risk takers I wanted to be able to take a risk of sitting next to the new girl and the like so you're talking so with an A plus you said I'm so proud of you take up my side of the family we're gonna put this up on the refrigerator for the other side to look at.

You do that very often you're gonna go to back to school night pick up every child's desk and find every paper in there that's not an A plus because they're afraid to say my kid comes home I've already given you the comment in another situation all I ever say to my kids is talk to me about it tell me

about it. And it opens it up for them to talk instead of me talking about it.

And so I say talk to me about it and the girl who spelling comes easy say says spelling is easy I don't get excited about that but the other child where spelling comes hard for them they say look mom I got all the words right even spelled February right and the R's in a funny place.

I get excited about their excitement but the child who got the A plus because spelling comes easy for them I say you have a phenomenal gift we have to find a way for you to use that gift.

And at home I would say something like we've been going over to the senior center and you're old enough to come with us and with your spelling gifts you can answer their emails you can write thank you notes for them you can write letters for them.

I want young people to know that if you have a gift you have an obligation to use that gift instead of I'm so proud of you for that gift and then they'll be less likely to take risk if it's they're afraid they're going to get disapproval from you.

At school I would say you know you have a phenomenal gift and we have a young child in class who has a difficult time reading out loud and spelling and not but and she's a phenomenal storyteller which by the way is true of many kids with dyslexia.

One of the things you can do is you can write out the story she dictates to you oh we have an artist in the class you can illustrate her story we have a musician you could score her story we have two class clowns you can act out the story.

What I just did didn't cost a dime and didn't interfere with standardized testing is I just created a larger circle of caring which goes a long way to breaking the cycle of violence.

The chances of kids mocking the young girl with dyslexia have been radically reduced because they have seen that she has a gift.

I take a child with a learning disability and let them be the first to climb the rock wall why they often are willing to take those risks and the kids at the very top and the other kids going wow instead of oh he takes ADHD medicine he has to go down that yuck no wow look what he can do I take kids

who are impulsive get them in Red Cross programs so that first aid classes so they can learn to fix the nose bleed they get gave somebody I I try to get them to learn to swim really well.

I want all kids to know how to swim being a former water safety instructor I want them to swim well so they don't drown but kids who are impulsive make phenomenal I mean this very seriously phenomenal lifeguards they make wonderful EMTs and paramedics lousy brain surgeons but I don't need a brain surgeon in the back

of an ambulance I need somebody who uses their impulse quickly and they've got that trained so it's a mindset that we have to have about what are the gifts these kids have and I want them to say you know talk to me about getting an F okay talk to me oh you ran the car into a post at school talk to me

about it and then show me how you're going to fix it it was a mistake you know how to fix it on it fix it learn from it move on um now if they were uh drinking and they had an accident they got mayhem on their hands and that's a much bigger issue so but you see how it fits in that structure of the backbone

I like that a lot I find so often the schools are focused on what the children can't do and it's usually geared towards some curriculum or they don't fit inside this ever narrowing sort of box instead of what they can do and taking advantage of maybe special gifts or different ways of viewing the same

problem well I try to change that as an educator regularly when I'm lecturing and working with schools when a kid walks through those doors I've been doing a lot of opening of schools it's the beginning of the school year and I say I don't care where a kid comes from dad's an alcoholic mother has an interest

occupation brother's been in jail any kid walking through those doors it's a kid and they need those six critical life messages I believe in you I trust in you I know you can handle this you're listening to care for very important to me I think that's creating psychological safety for the children yeah

I mean it's the exact same thing we do for adults to create an environment of safety well we may indeed I have people say to me when I was working with seriously troubled adolescents but they're going to go home to the same environment they're home to the same streets I say I have five and a half hours

a day I can only do all I can do but I've got to do the best I can do with them because this truly is safe harbor Alice Miller the psychiatrist um did a study of kids who had been horribly abused and found that those who did thrive had one person in their life they cared about them and very often it

was an educator so we can make a difference in their lives we have to believe that oh totally I mean I had one teacher make all the difference for me and it it was grade 10 it was the only teacher who ever believed in me and it just changed everything it does change everything it does Carl Upture wrote

convicted in the womb he spent a good portion of his junior high and high school years in prison juvenile detention and then went on to prison and an English teacher in the prison said you're a good writer and he went out and wrote and he also got the crips and the bloods to put down their colors in Kansas

City and went on to be a phenomenal advocate and writer but it was that one teacher that said I believe in you yeah I totally agree with that mr.

Duncan if you're listening thank you so much I want to talk you're a big proponent of real world consequences I want to understand what real world consequences are and I want to understand when parents or teachers should intervene and when they shouldn't yeah that's not life threatening morally threatening

or unhealthy let it go let them experience the consequences but you don't say to a 16 year old go ahead and jump off the building we'll discuss the consequences after you land you pull them back give them a second chance at life but the rest of the time I give them the opportunity to make those choices

and decisions does that mean I don't give them wisdom no my own wisdom we're there for a reason you know as adults we're not just kind of hanging with them and we're certainly not their friends do you give them recommendations oh I do and I would say to someone you know I know you love that combination how

do you think I try to get them to quit how do you think some of your peers may respond to that when you walk through the door and if he says I don't care what they think and says it very strongly I said go for it you're your own person but if they say I don't know uh what do you think mom I tell them

that well in my day this is what might have happened you know going back to me because I'm they'll I only know from my own experience and as experience as an educator I know these things I also can talk to them about if you said that to somebody and said it in that way how do you think they might respond

it's a matter of teaching I was driving one day with my oldest granddaughter and my daughter and my oldest granddaughter asked something and I went off into my teaching mode and my daughter said you're always teaching aren't you I said yep you know because it was a teachable moment and I think you take

those teachable moments um take them and you get them yeah yes and and you give it to them you know and I I believe I'm a good teacher and I think that I have some knowledge to impart and I want my my grandkids I want children in the neighborhood to be able to experience that um and that's why I lecture

the teachers hopefully they can take some of the wisdom that I have um and make it a part of their own school um I want to go back a moment here because I said you know they needed the three but they also need deep caring which is something you just alluded to deep caring is not liking somebody I tell

kids you do not have to like every kid in this classroom but you must honor their humanity deep caring is the must to relieve somebody else's suffering and wishing them well which by the way is the antithesis of mean and cruel um so if you care deeply about another human being you want to be in there

to help relieve any suffering they have uh and wish them well and that's what we as educators uh we need to be mindful with a wise heart um and uh if we're so locked into rules I have very few rules on many more guidelines rules are how we expect kids to behave guidelines are how we hope to behave but a rule

is important but it must be rooted in deep caring uh that I'm going to go back to brick wall with that uh you know there was a situation uh outside of Atlanta Georgia a few years ago where they had a rule about cell phone use it was a good rule about cell phone use however 30 percent of those kids had

one or both parents deployed in Iraq or Afghanistan and a grade 11 boy made international news his phone vibrates in the lunch room it's his mom from Iraq she doesn't get to call very often he goes into the commons area uh and forbid her cell phone reception and a moral absolute rigid brick wall teacher

came by and said turn that phone off and give it to me he said but it's my mom from Iraq and how telling moral absolutism is she said I don't care she took the phone he got belligerent he was suspended five days for using his phone five days for getting belligerent now the board back that teacher because they

said if we let him use the phone then everyone will use the phone see moral absolute rigid brick walls are so afraid of moral relativism jellyfish but they even got that wrong it isn't moral relativism jellyfish isn't everyone will use the phone but who you are who you're related to what position your

parents held in the community and who caught you that's the jellyfish also reinforcing not thinking right like you're just blindly following some sort of rules or procedures and you're not exercising any sort of judgment i mean you might as well be working yeah that's what zero tolerance is all about it

zero thinking so what would a deeply caring teacher do who's the rule is a rule it's a good rule but there's a time to bend to go above the rule not because the rule isn't a good rule so you see the child with the cell phone you say cell phone and he looks at you said but it's my mom from iraq and a deeply

caring teacher whose ethic is rooted in deep caring and rules are rooted in deep caring says i'll talk to you when you're finished and hangs around and then when he's done with the phone calls say how's your mom doing and how are you and grandma doing it's been a long deployment for all three of you

is there anything i can do to help that says i care and that you know the rules there but there's a time to bend um another kid comes up and says how come he gets to use the cell phone and i don't and i say when your mom's in iraq you get to use your cell phone too you have a child with cancer needs

to wear a hat but you have a hat rule there's a time to bend it's like two yellow lines down the road that's a rule um not a guideline uh and i we have to trust the highway department rules are about trust i have to trust you say on your side of the road you have to trust i say on my side of the road

however an ambulance comes down the middle of the road they have not violated that rule they superseded the rule it's still a good rule but there's a time to supersede to get to the place so that you can be deeply caring you know the must relieve somebody else's suffering wishing them well oh go ahead

do you think people follow those rules because they're trying to avoid punishment or trying to avoid being wrong if they exercise their judgment well i ask people when i'm talking about this in the the lectures i say if any of you have a radar detector i don't want you to raise your hand well if your

child's in the car with you what you have just said to them is speeding is not bad it's getting caught that's bad and some people go and moan a little bit but it's about getting caught um we don't none of us like to get caught none of us like to pick but if that's the only reason we're not speeding

then we have a problem um and you know rules are there for a reason there's only when i say develop your school rules your classroom rules your general area rules the basis of those rules has to be deep caring and it's a matter again of does it have to do with safety or the way we relate to other human beings

if you have a rule that doesn't have those two things one of those two things in common then i challenge the rule you have what were your family rules uh my own well my school rules my classroom rules are easy show up on time be prepared do your assignments respect your own and others life space very

simple i had a lot of guidelines where you said how you ask for things guidelines but rules are how we expect you behave god that's not how we hope you'll behave uh in our own home it was be kind and caring help out with chores um that you're a responsible member of this family we're counting on you

to do chores uh and treating one another kindly i think was the biggest thing can you walk me through what would be age appropriate chores for say six to eight eight to ten ten to twelve twelve to fourteen fourteen to sixteen well remember our goal is to constantly increase responsibilities and decision making

and reduce limits and boundaries so you don't uh let us two -year -old play with a gas stove um but you uh let them help uh put peanut butter on the celery and put the little raisins on top for ants on log you know that kind of thing uh it's again age appropriate and i would impress upon you ability appropriate

you may have a child with special needs who's the oldest but the second oldest is more capable of getting more responsibilities in decision making they ought to be allowed to do that and not because oh i'm worried that the other kid will feel bad no we we honor each one's differences and seek out one

another's gifts as well um it was interesting to me i had a niece who's a doctor um say that she was talking to some of the her patients and uh some of them who came from third world countries those children were more likely to do more chores and be more helpful around the family because it was expected

now that even they live in a first world country uh than our children we have to take a serious look at if our goal is for them to be independent what chores are we willing to take the time to teach them to do and hold them accountable for so you know i couldn't give you exactly all i know is your goal

is when they leave home they know how to do the laundry they know how to mow a lawn they know how to wash windows they know how to uh keep a house in order um they know how to shop so the and some of you listening may say i got a 15 year old we've lost it we're what do we do now we've done it all wrong

no you haven't it's never too late yeah you can say kid you got a job to do and i've got a job to do and that's to get you ready to go outside on your own at 18 so we got some catching up to do and we can do it it's again that's an affirmation we can do this we can do this what responsibility decisions

do you think you're capable of doing now and what limits and boundaries do you think we can take away and you're open and when they realize that you mean it they won't give you some far out things like i think i can stay out all night at 15 well no not really but you're open let's see what limits we

can put and how about curfew you know some people have that ridge of brick wall curfew uh jellyfish says oh well my kid will come home whenever but a backbone says um a half hour after the event's over or an hour after events over because an event may end at 10 but you say curfew at 12 well they can get

enrolled during that time right but you know an hour after the event's over and you that means your child can still say mom the other boy had something to drink i'm driving him home thank you for telling me my parents always had this rule which i think we might not even need anymore because of the likes

of uber and stuff but their rule was you can call me anytime anywhere no questions asked and we'll come get you that's still a very good rule that's still a very good rule because it's not always about drinking it's not always about an uber sometimes it's about they're in an uncomfortable situation they

want out so you have a code that they can give you a text message or something that says please come get me now all my mom needs me home right now darn it i gotta babysit my brother you know because they're uncomfortable you get to be the funny duddy um it's like three alternatives to know you know

how often we say no to kids mom can i have a cookie no it'll spoil your supper dad can i go to jamie's no uh mom uh mom can i have the car keys no dad can i stay out all night no we say no so often that they don't take it seriously on that big one well there's three alternatives to know you start today

so when you need to say no you say it and mean it and follow through with it mom can i have a cookie yes later and how do you find a no a yes later the five -year -old says but i'm hungry okay have a cookie it's already later it's at least three seconds later but most importantly you didn't change a no to

a yes it was a yes all along um the second dad can i go over to jamie's house give me a minute there's nothing wrong with asking for a moment to develop your own case you might think gee it'd be kind of nice to have him out of here yeah you can go or wait a minute we have this and this and this to do

no you can't go at least when you say no you know why you know how often we say no we are the foggiest because it sounded good you know why why did i say that i don't know so yes later give me a minute the third i often use with adolescence but you really can use it with anyone who's verbal mom can i

have a car keys convince me why should i spend all my energy at my age convincing my adolescent she can let her expend all her useful energy convince me why she should um although i'm all my friends i'm convinced mom you let maria i'm not convinced mom if you don't give me the car keys you got to take

all of us to play practice i'm convinced and then when your 16 year old says can i stay out all night a good line is no there is a time and a place for no and they're gonna say how come and our typical response is because i said so which is not a wise reason at all um they're gonna go out the back window

after you lock the front door they still won't know why tell them why kid you can't stay all night because of sex, jail, drugs, and personal safety what nope you can't stay out all night because of sex, jail, drugs, and personal safety mom you don't trust me oh yeah i do i trust you from the moment

you walk out of this house in the morning till you come back in the evening it takes less than 10 minutes to get involved in sex, jail, or drugs and i just trust your note but after midnight in this community there's a whole lot less to do with sex, jail, or drugs and i just don't want to put you in a position you

can't yet handle oh but mom everybody's staying out not true you're not you don't love me i do i'm not gonna argue but i do they're not gonna be real happy many of our kids so will be relieved because now they can say mom won't let me and you get to be the funny daddy while they're still developing

that strong backbone of their own i like that approach a lot where you can take the blame for the kids my mom won't let me my dad won't let me and then that gives them an out and a way to save face yeah yeah without them having to stand up and say i don't want to do drugs which is really a hard position to

put them in yes and and also now that they all have their phones a text a code word that they can text to you that means please come get me or i'm scared or i'm worried and you right there and you can even walk into that party and just say john you didn't get something that you need to come home right

now and they'll think whoa is she firm and and i we took in when before we had our own children kids who were troubled adolescents and one of them was on the verge of being sent back to juvie hall if he messed up one more time and i said you can always blame it on me i'll back you up and this was new

for him and he came running in the house ahead of his buddies said tell me no tell me no and i had no idea what i was telling him no about but he said tell me no tell me no and so his buddy come on in and mom all the foster kids call me mom and i mom mom can i go to i said nope oh come on nope you can never

mind you i have no idea but nope and i got even firmer no you absolutely asked me one more time it's going to be a bigger no no oh they she won't let me and then after they left they said explain this to me well they were going to go do something he knew he would get in serious trouble for but he had

it we had that agreement that if he needs me to say no i'll say it how long did it take the foster kids to integrate into the family well i didn't have kids then we took in the kids before we had kids we took in uh young offenders that while they were being adjudicated or leaving one foster care to

another my husband was a psych rehab counselor i was a special ed teacher some of these kids were my students so some of them that boy in particular had me morning noon right what a phenomenal place to land though oh we loved it and you know i told my own kids we've handled kids who have seriously harmed

others and hurt themselves so you're gonna have to work hard at shocking us they all three did by the way in the teen years uh they worked hard uh but again you go back to it's not life threatening morally threatening or unhealthy let it go the purple hair will grow out nobody likes admitting they're

wrong how should parents admit that they made a mistake to their reacted they discipline or punished too much or yep i blew it um you know we all we all lose it you know we we yell and scream how dare you you're grounded for six months i mean why would you get want to get home for six months um but we

if you've ever done that you can always pull back just like we teach kids we can always pull back and say i lost it give me a few moments to come up with something that makes sense and i will know you are not grounded for life um i had a friend ground her adolescent for six months including senior prom

um because she lost it and so often we see admitting we're wrong yeah that didn't make sense go back and you just say the kid i blew that one now sometimes you have to say i blew it i'm gonna go back outside i'm gonna call myself down i'm going to start over which gives them a tool for how to do it

too and they see that we make mistakes and we're vulnerable and what's hard is when your kids say you blew it um and i had one i was lecturing in uh Toronto and we were in an elevator and i had taken my son with me that on that trip and he turned around he was 13 and he looked at all the people that were talking

about the lecture i'd just given and he said well would you like to me for me to be good or bad so you can see how she handles it you know like oh please so um yeah humor always helps if you blow it humor helps too no you're not grounded for life um but let me come up with something that makes sense

and by the way i'm open to suggestions it's okay to ask a kid for some suggestions of what to do and some kids will say spank me i say well that's off limits i don't do that because it destroys my dignity and it will destroy yours too so let's come up with another option and then tell them to try again if it

if it's not uh in line with what happened yeah yeah one of the techniques you use in the book that i thought was particularly interesting and i tried it on my kids last night it was the sit can you explain that and when to use it if you hit you sit yeah yeah if you hit you sit okay let's look at time

out um because i'm often asked about that there's time in there's time out and some people have an interesting time out i had a parent one of my workshops say i have a wonderful timeout program it works our son hits his sister he goes and sits i don't even have to tell him anymore i go oh that's not working

if he's still there's something wrong there yeah yeah so do i believe in time out not that kind but i do believe in time out when a child bops another kid over the head i say whoa it's all right to be angry it's not all right to hit your brother i want to separate those two it is all right to be it's

all right to your brother you need to take time out to calm down and to figure out how you're going to fix what you just did the purpose of time out is to calm down and to figure out how you're going to fix what you just did that's the purpose of it so many timeouts it's obligatory timeout and the obligatory

i'm sorry and that's the little boy who will hit his sister and go sit and then come up and say i'm sorry and not mean it you know and still hit his sister um but i also give him options i say you can sit in your rocker room or on my lap now people in behavior mod said why am i gonna let him sit on my

lap uh i've been trained in behavior mod with rats i'm not going to use it on kids uh and so uh sometimes a very out of control child needs a very in control adult and just rocking them may help suit them the goal is to calm them down then they have to deal with what they did so i give them a choice

rocker room around my lap notice i give them three choices you give a strong willed child two they'll try to figure out which uh one they you want them to do uh and they'll choose the other just to spite you but you give them three they're confused so uh rocker room around my lap when they're done calming

down now the work begins um and mom i'm ready okay if he says i'm done being mad and they're still angry i said well not yet do you want to go for a walk maybe sitting isn't what calms him down you got to know your kid um but he's getting attention for you he's calming down now he still has got to do

the work and it's the three hours he hit his brother restitution you have to own and fix what you did i hit my brother uh with a toy and i broke the toy um figure out how you're going to keep it from happening again and this is where you teach him to share it's that here's you here's your brother you

control half your brother controls half you influence a hole and know is a complete sentence that if he says he doesn't want to give you the toy you got to find something else to do kind of thing uh so very quickly but he says i won't hit him again okay that's what you won't do but what will you do

instead so then you give him the options there and then the third is to heal now your brother didn't get off to such a great start today being buffed over the head with his favorite toy that you now have to go and buy him a new one or fix this one let's see if it's repairable that kind of thing um what can you

do to help him have a better day and he says well he likes to be pulled in the wagon so here's the five -year -old uh pulling the three -year -old the five -year -old knows his own goodness the three -year -old knows his own his brother's goodness and they heal so they can go back and fight later in the day

kids fight but it's a matter of you hit you said they know that right away you hit you said you need to calm down and and work through the process did you have family meetings and if so what what was discussed how were they run and what was the frequency of them yes we had family meetings and they were loosely

put together when there was a need to come together as a family uh to decide when they were older we talked to them about options for holidays now they can get to choose oh we want to go to australia we had limits and boundaries we said we're going to go to this place and what can we do and talk about it

as they got even older you know they were better at planning trips when they were five it was a matter of who's going to do the map reading um and what do you think we need to put in the cooler to get us from this point to this point problem solving basically if there was an issue in the family um where mom

or dad had to leave because uh somebody was ill or something um we had a really big issue where our kids godfather was kidnapped in lebanon he was in 1983 he was one of the lebanon seven and uh we held many family meetings over what do we do to be effective and our kids were like 10 and and um nine

and seven at that point and so we we uh decided we've always had family meals at the table tv was off but when marty was kidnapped um ted koppel used to have a show every night um this will date me uh and so we watched tv uh while we ate to get caught up on what what's happening with the hostages so you

know every family is going to deal with different kinds of very difficult issues um and marty did come to stay with us a period of time after he was released and and our kids were very close to him he was their godmother father uh and so that was a traumatic time to deal with it we also when our kids

were about the same age um my brother -in -law died and we had the two kids one older than our oldest and one the same age as our oldest and so we had them and what do you do when all the other adults are planning a funeral that nobody had planned on and all of those things so we got together the the three

kids myself my husband of course was with the family helping plan everything because it was his brother and the two whose father had died and said okay what should we do this afternoon to remember in a special way um perry and and shay's dad and they all just kind of look kind of solemn in this that perry

said i think we ought to go to a walt disney movie because dad loved those with us okay so we're going to a wild is he you know but it was a matter of coming together and so we didn't have meetings every week i know some families do that our lives were just a little more hectic but we did know a format for a meeting

that we would have that we all listened to one another and we didn't frown on anybody's suggestions we would tell them how we felt and i think those are all important skills in communication um and if there's an issue uh where we have a problem it needs to be solved um okay we had a chore nobody nobody

likes to do bathrooms it's just the reality at our house nobody like to do bathrooms okay how can we make this something okay we all we'll all rotate the bathroom but we all have to do a stint at the bathrooms now if there's a chore um one of my kids love to cook and another liked uh not especially

but she didn't like to cook so she would uh clean up uh and so working those kinds of things out uh and if the one who always had to clean up says but you're using too many dishes here okay what can we do to solve that kind of a problem it's oh you got a problem what's your plan basically is a formula that we

use we you know i like to have some kind of structure there you got a problem okay what's the plan i'm a huge fan of that because it gets the kids out of uh knowing what to do and get some thinking how to do it yeah yeah and they gotta figure it out you're not telling them yes you're still the adult

you are their parent till they reach puberty and then you become their mentor their model their guide i really dislike it when people say my teenager is my best friend i say get a life you know they need a mentor they don't need a friend right now not you as a friend then in adulthood you can become

their friend and you better become a good friend because they do pick out your nursing home um and so we need to move through that progression but it's critical during those formative years that we are truly a parent and then we become a mentor and a guide and then we can become a good friend in their

adult years two questions left before we wrap up i want to talk about teens in social media and yes now we have five -year -olds in social media but yes how do we as parents be responsible with our children and what what kind of conversation should we be having with them and what kind of monitoring if any

should we put in place and how do we it's the very same thing as red pajama blue pajama um i mean some of our kids today come out of the womb knowing how to use the phone because mom and dad were using it in the in the room and when they were born you know texting to their friends sending pictures and you

see an 18 -month -old who takes a picture book and tries to slide it and it won't it doesn't change because they're so used to sliding on the phone uh and so what we want to do is teach kids three things to be digitally savvy smart about the tools they're using and this starts very young and i know we

often think that we don't need to teach them because they don't have a cell phone yet but i was working uh with the department of defense schools in europe and i had done a day session for teachers and then i was working with the parents at night and then in the day i had third and fourth graders together

and then fifth and sixth graders together and teachers were in the back and i said to third and fourth graders can anyone here tell me how you might be mean on a cell phone this little boy shot his hand up had a smirk on his face and he told me how he had been not how he could be mean he said well i

asked my classmate uh and he was real cocky he said i asked my classmate if i could borrow his phone to call my mom and then he had the smirk and he said but i didn't call my mom i went into his phone book and a lot of you say i know a lot of parents who don't know how to do this but i went into his phone

book and sent an ugly text message to every one of them it got him in trouble and he's laughing right the teachers in the back of the room were stunned you know who's the most stunned the fourth grade teacher his mother oh she believed she didn't have to teach him this stuff because he didn't have a cell

phone yet no you borrowed a friend so i believe it's important about age five we start teaching him to be savvy about the tools they use to be civil uh and that's where we put the structures on it um i used to use the old sufi saying that our words must pass through through gates first is it true not kind

of true maybe true after a rumor but is it true is it necessary to say something may be true but not necessary to say and the last is is it kind if it won't pass through all three gates don't you dare push send but it also is true in in the offline world too is it true is it necessary is it kind and again we're

fighting in a climate today um uh with adults not going through those three gates before they engage their mouth or their fingers um so we've got to work against that so we teach them uh to be digitally savvy digitally civil digitally safe now it starts about age five you have limits and boundaries

of course you would just like crossing the street for a five -year -old more limits and boundaries and fewer responsibilities and decision making and then you constantly increase the responsibilities and decision making as they demonstrate ability and age appropriateness then um you look at what limits

and boundaries can we put on it i believe through the early teen years it's important that we know their passwords that they trust us and we trust them but trust and i use ronald reagan's uh comment trust but verify right with them because there's so much dangerous stuff out there today um and we need

to talk to i i try to stay up and there is a wonderful website um started here in colorado commonsensemedia .org and you can subscribe to it free and it will give you the latest apps the latest games um the latest concerns with movies and they've done a wonderful thing they hired experts in the field

uh to make handouts for parents and educators uh from preschool all the way through high school on digitally they're both savvy and safe but uses a different terminology so that's a tool that i use regularly um then the other one uh stop cyberbullying .org that perry aft have started is made for middle

school and high school kids and their parents to help them help their kids stay safe and civil and uh savvy about it i mean the tools are changing so rapidly and you've got to know that kids are not targeting their their peers uh on facebook now because grandma's on facebook they're using apps and they're

using them quite effectively and these are tools they that's all they are they can be used for good or for ill and parents have an obligation to kind of keep up with what's going on we do and so do we educators both of us do but i also feel very strongly rafi the singer started the red hood project

uh rafi beluga the whale was one of his samus songs after a young girl had killed herself after being targeted by a predator from the netherlands uh and she lived in canada uh amanda tod and she thought she was communicating with a 15 -year -old and he blackmailed her um and the our crack team here in the united

states actually found him in the netherlands and found her and over 200 other us and canadian boys and girls who had been blackmailed by him and uh so he was so angry he started the red hood project that you can subscribe to but his whole push is that yes teachers and parents can help keep kids safe

would you talk to your kids about examples like that or would you hide them from it oh no i would i would um age appropriate ability appropriate again but he goes to google and twitter and yahoo and the latest app producers and facebook and says you've got to help us out you've got the money you've

got the resources you need to help keep our kids safe because educators and parents cannot do it alone and the police department will be overwhelmed um and so we need to be able to have that conversation and demand that these companies that are developing these tools help us help our kids be safe um

it's more the issue of safety uh but also you know we have an obligation to teach our kids to savvy about these tools not be used by them but to be able to use them effectively and civil probably civil is the most important um sometimes kids will hide behind the anonymity of the net but other times

people say well it's that anonymity no sometimes they can hardly wait to get to school to see how the targeting kids responding to their vile comments to her the day before when they've used their full names because there's nothing going to happen to them now i was a part of developing david's law in san antonio

texas drafting that law for cyber issues because i think he was uh this what is that loss uh it's a site on cyberbullying it's called david's law you can look it up in the texas state legislature this is one of the first to deal with um holding kids accountable if they tell someone to kill themselves

as had happened to david if they demean or harass someone on the web to hold them accountable uh and our laws have not caught up uh and so parents have a kid being relentlessly tormented and what do we do um we can't take it into our own hands as much as we'd like to but the law says they haven't reached

a point well now they have and it's a you know different degrees of offenses there so you know we need all of us to help keep our kids safe the online offline worlds uh we used to talk about the real world and then the online world well we can't use that language anymore it's online offline have merged

to create the real world for our young people today i spent i'm 70 i spent a lot of time trying to keep up um uh you know the popular oh my god tell me about it and and it frightens me because it and people say oh don't be such a fuddy -duddy but i know the research behind um what military has done to

help break down the barrier for killing someone and it's that same kind of thing breaking down those barriers those inhibitions and kids are becoming desensitized to to offline if you were a parent would you allow your child to play that or would it be supervised or framed or how would you go about that um

i'm not a real fan of censorship but age appropriate and ability appropriate and i believe that game was developed for older people it was not developed for seven -year -olds however let me just frighten you a little bit more um there is uh an online uh program where somebody has developed a form of that that young

kids and this is something parents need to be aware of uh in the roebucks and where kids go online and get invited by friends and they thought they may parent may think their their kid is just playing good games here because oh no somebody's communicating with them somebody else is inviting them to

talk uh oh what is this well somebody did a a form of fortnight that doesn't have any of those restrictions on it and you can have a five -year -old seven -year -old six -year -old playing it um now i know there are parents who have actually hired coaches so their kids can get better at it and they've hired

coaches themselves so they can beat their sons or daughters at it i got serious concerns about it because i have i and part of my own world history um my own life's history i work in rwanda with orphans from the 94 genocide i see what happens where hateful rhetoric uh is a short walk to hate crimes

to crimes against humanity and uh and i also look at um the good research out there about what happens with all that violence any violence our kids are exposed to whether it's online or offline become a part of their worldview and we need to be tuned into that um and uh so i have a problem with that with young

kids the frontal portion of their brains are not fully developed um there's a lot wrong with that for young people now i probably get a lot of grief and people saying oh there's nothing that bad about it um but in my book um just because it's not wrong doesn't make it right i talk about um the whole

issue of what's so wrong with all this violence and violent video games it isn't just that one uh and again there's people who will say well the research has said that uh it's not that bad well let's look and see who did the resource a research for it um and when we find out who did it if it's the people

developing the games you know that's going to be skewed if it's people who are truly uh concerned about uh the what's happening in kids uh lives and in their minds and are willing to look at it objectively and now i think we are seeing some good research on that um but i i think it's critical that we

take a serious look at uh what's what's wrong with uh all the violence that kids are being exposed to um and if we can do that then i believe we can show kids that uh you know violence in our homes i don't care maybe it's the way we treat one another it isn't just the online but how do we to our neighbors

how do we correspond are we always online uh and if we're always online when a kid walks into school from school and we're on our phones do we get off our phone so that uh they can uh communicate with us and say how was your day and the kid walks in head down shoulders down in this fine this isn't fine

uh but i want to go back here just a moment the the deadly consequences what's wrong with all this violence um real or imagined acts of violence tend to cultivate a sense of danger of mistrust of alienation and gloom in our kids none none of what our kids need today and children who are regularly exposed

and engaged in media violence and that isn't just the gaming but media violence in general they're more likely to become desensitized to real life violence so they won't see other kids at school being mean to another kid is such an awful thing when it really should their guts ought to say this is awful

one of the scary things is they imitate that violence that they see and hear they also some of them for some they become easily intimidated or depressed because it's online and offline for them others become fearful and distrustful of others oh that really creates community um and i think one of the most

important things that happen is they miss their natural healthy fear clues our bodies want to keep us alive and if they become fearful full of fear they don't get tuned into things that should bother them little ones will say i don't want to go to uncle georgias because they're listening to their little

guts saying it's not a good place to be and we don't live but if they're fearful of danger you know stranger danger which drives me crazy because we usually have to go to a stranger if we need something or if we need help then they miss their fear clues and they're often lulled into thinking that they

are safe when in familiar surroundings with familiar people and that's not always true uh and when you have those video games that you know there are pluses it does draw them into intricate systems where they learn to play and interact with one another it does strengthen eye hand coordination as surgeons

they use it quick thinking and cooperation and imagination and problem solving um and it does some of the games can invite kids to be thoughtful and caring and come up with solutions to quandaries or dilemmas like sim city and the u .n has developed some wonderful games for that but there are probable

negatives as well uh when you're playing a video game it requires a little more than quick aggressive violent responses to perceived threats you see something pop up right away you've got to respond it glorifies violence as a legitimate solution to problems and violence is not a solution like liz lozier

said conflict is inevitable violence is not and it it sets other people up as adversaries praise or targets rather than people that we need to communicate with that martin boobers i am now in our common humanity you know i am i and you are thou i'm unique you're unique and we have a lot in common it

does we know it to be true military abuse it it breaks down our natural inhibition to killing it also does something that neurologists have found out and neuroscience it creates neural pathways that connect violence with pleasure and rewards rather than sadness and sympathy and fright and that ought

to scare us all and it's non -stop stimulation can provide comfort and becomes a source of soothing we have young people waking up at night having to get online to play uh something to soothe them back to sleep and we do know that for some kids it can become addictive so um we have to look at this deadening

consequences and what's so wrong with all the violence whether it's online or offline i think that's something all parents and educators should reflect on i want to end with a question on sex and drugs and how we should talk to our kids i mean my kids we can use my kids as hypotheticals sort of like

eight and nine right now walk me through how i should um talk to them about that over the next 10 years and what what do i need to be doing now to lay the foundations i was so younger using the proper words um very young uh a little three -year -old and grown she started mommy by vagina it just people

are like oh you know and and we have 105 words for penis 20 125 for breasts and one ankle you know we have to start young teaching kids to use their their proper words i want a little boy to say that there's something uh my penis feels funny and and instead of using all these euphemisms uh we we uh

uh sausage and bacon or twigs and berries and all the different words that we use uh junk family jewels to use them and you say but why well when they reach middle school they won't be calling one another uh slut horror fag queer or bitch which are derogatory sexual terms so we start young you said

well eight nine no no we start even younger we start giving them the proper terms we talk to them about limits and boundaries just like we talked about limits and boundaries in every other part of their lives that sexuality is an integral part of their being so that instructions how do we treat them

how do we treat their bodies how do we talk to them it when they're real real young uh about proper words then as they're getting older and we're seeing puberty drop with especially our young girls today and so the talk quote unquote has had to come earlier but if we couch it in being free about talking

about our bodies properly and talking about uh that we don't violate somebody else's space and then we can start talking about the difference between teasing and taunting you say but what does that have to do with sexuality teasing is laughing with somebody taunting is laughing at somebody so if we

can start about age five talking to kids about the difference between teasing which is a mutual thing it's light -hearted clever and benign and it's uh only a small part of your relationship uh and both parties are laughing uh and taunting it's one -sided it's a small it's the only part of the relationship

you have these bigoted comments thinly disguised as jokes uh in teasing when the other person appears distressed we stop in taunting we keep going so if we teach them that then by fourth grade we can start talking to kids about the difference between flirting which is normal natural necessary to keep

the human race going and sexual bullying which is none of those because the checklist for teasing and flirting is very similar for taunting and sexual bullying are very similar so that's why I said we have to start young so it isn't just dropping in the talk being open when a kid asks a question about sexuality

uh you're driving in the car and your your uh uh eight -year -old says daddy where did I come from and your mind's going um where do i start where do i start and he and you start talking about well mom and i loved one another and he says no no is it new jersey or new york you know and not be upset when they

bring something up if they use a gross sexual term to stop them in tracks because that's mean and cruel right and then get some help there's some good programs out there um i know my uh oldest granddaughter's 11 and the hospital actually had several sessions for moms and daughters to attend and fathers

and sons to attend about your changing body and they had it well developed and it provided an environment of lots of girls and lots of women and lots of boys and lots of men to help um kids talk about this uh and use those kinds of resources and then when they um notice their bodies yeah notice see

if one is developing earlier than other girls and do you need to get a little sanitary pack and have that ready so you're ready and she won't be afraid to tell you that she started her period or mom uh i want to brah we've sexualized our young children and we've got to get away from that uh so that they

can normally develop uh just like development of everything else the final portion of their brains their emotions and then become tuned in to um that unage where they're unable to be an adult and unable to be a child and wanting desperately to be both um and that's that that 13 through 15 years and those

are hard on everybody including the kid the wonder years weren't so really wonderful when it comes to their identity their self identity their sexual identity and asking lots of questions and be open and you can honestly say i'm gonna have to look that up or talk to me about why um it's important for you

to know that right now um and it's being open and uh talking to them they're hearing things they're able to see things online that you and i were never exposed to uh for good and for ill there's some good stuff that kids are finding out um and it's for media uh but there's also some stuff that's not healthy

uh dr filza bardo um did some amazing work he did the stanford prison experiment but he also uh did a telex talk and you look it up under uh phil zimbardo um i guess the name of the talk is scary but it's about our young boys and what pornography is doing to them and why it's so dangerous um the kind

that's out there today and what it does to their sense of relationships with the real world young girls that they hopefully will fall in love with i think it has a huge impact on adults too doesn't it well you know it does we know it does on relationships but so you know as an adult your brain is fully

developed theirs is not their own sexual identity their sense of self in relation to other human beings is not so it has really devastating effects and so we need to be tuned into those kinds of things and again age appropriate ability what their interests are um uh and they do need to know how their

body is developing and if you're uncomfortable with it or you're not sure my generation my mother uh didn't know the words all the proper body parts because they never used them um and they were never told what they were right uh and so generation was reading our bodies ourselves you know which i gave

to uh my daughters uh when they were 15 and 16 um and uh it but now there's a lot out there seek it out ask for help use your programs that you have in your community that will help you but being honest and open remember if your kids can tell you the good the bad and the ugly going back to you know

not praising them and not using rewards and punishments it'll come much easier where they feel like they can talk to you about anything use humor um and i also while we're on that with drugs and sex you don't have to tell them everything you did wrong you can deal with life lessons but they really there

are things your parents don't know it's probably best that your kids don't know either um and and yes there was a real teachable moment in it uh you're getting your kid out of the local jail and you ended up there once too you know sharing that with them but in a way of you know we can get through this and and the like

and i'm here for you um kind of thing uh but telling about all your experiences with drugs in the 80s probably isn't the best idea so um you know we learn from those things there are things you don't have to share there's oversharing so and we want them to feel good about their sexuality regardless

you know wherever they fit on whatever spectrum there is uh and to be open to them uh and let them know that we love them that we're here for them that they are who they are i think that's a great spot to end this conversation barbara thank you so much this was a phenomenal exploration of how to raise

kids and how to think about it from a parenting and a teacher perspective and i really appreciate you taking the time well kids are worth it they are worth our time our energy our resources to help them be all they can be because that's what matters hey guys this is uh shane again just a few more things

before we wrap up you can find show notes at fernumstreetblog .com slash podcast that's f -a -r -n -a -m -s -t -r -e -e -t -b -l -o -g .com slash podcast you can also find information there on how to get a transcript and if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food go to fernumstreetblog

.com slash newsletter this is all the good stuff i found on the web that week that i've read and shared with close friends books i'm reading and so much more thank you for listening

[아이들의 존엄성을 지키며 주체적인 인간으로 키우는 법: 바바라 칼리사로와의 대화]-[#44 Barbara Coloroso: The Kids Are Worth It]

📋 Summary

아이들의 존엄성을 지키며 주체적인 인간으로 키우는 법

1. 훈육의 세 가지 기본 원칙

2. 뇌물과 처벌을 넘어서: 책임감 있는 선택

3. 갈등 해결과 '백본(Backbone)' 부모

4. 디지털 시대의 안전과 시민 의식

5. 결론: 좋은 것이 아닌 옳은 것을 위하여

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript