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One thing all managers, parents, and romantic partners know is that things don't always go the way we want them to, which means we sometimes have to have challenging conversations with our employees, our children, and our partners.
While never fun, these tough talks can be made easier and more effective.
Hello, I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
I am super excited to chat with Collins Doves.
Collins is a lecturer in management and an executive coach at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
He teaches in several MBA courses, including Interpersonal Dynamics and Leadership Labs.
Among many things, Collins focuses on diverse leadership styles and cultures and how they impact interpersonal relationships and management effectiveness.
Welcome, Collins. Thank you for being here.
I am so looking forward to chatting with you.
Thank you, Matt. Thank you for inviting me.
I look forward to our conversation.
Excellent. Let's go ahead and get started.
Now, when most of us are confronted with a challenging conversation, we focus almost exclusively on how we want the other person to change.
Might focusing on other things be more helpful to us?
I think it can, Matt.
Certainly, as a starter, I'll tell you one of the things that I like to think about is I think it's very helpful to slow ourselves down and to focus on our own awareness of what's going on for us.
And part of that is, am I aware of the depth of my excitement, the depth of my resistance, the depth of my emotions?
And clearly, what is it that I want from this particular conversation myself, and do I feel grounded to have that conversation?
So I think that's a great place to start.
The other thing, Matt, that I find that's helpful is if I can slow myself down and be anchored, I am going to be a better listener because now I kind of have cleared some space and some anxiety away, so I can do that.
And then the corollary is, and then it also allows me to then listen more actively or more openly.
And rather than necessarily listening for how do I cause change in the other person necessarily, can I start with some curiosity and certainly with a goal of mutual understanding?
So I think that's usually a nice baseline to start with.
Yeah. So so important.
Many of us, myself included, when I'm in these situations, I'm so focused on what I want the other person to do or how I want them to change.
And what I'm hearing you say is we have to pause.
I love this notion of slowing down because our minds are often so active.
Slow down, really reflect on what's motivating our position, focus on where we're at.
And I love what you said about focusing on what our goal is.
Sometimes I know for myself, I just want change and I don't think deeply enough about what's a reasonable goal for that change.
And then you spoke the magic word, listening.
I think in all of these situations, we could benefit by listening and anything that gets us into a place where we can listen better will be so helpful.
So thank you for that guidance.
Really, really important.
Do you have suggestions for ways for structuring constructive or critical feedback?
One model that I've used in executive education, we use a piece of it in interpersonal dynamics.
It's kind of a three step, three considerations, right?
And the first one is is called the AIR feedback model.
So the A stands for action.
And in some ways, the way I like to talk about that is very simply, can we share data that is accessible to both parties involved in the communication?
So A is for action.
So if I can name a specific action that you took, something you said, something you did, something that is there and obvious that we can refer to as a concrete data point for us to kind of both look at.
So the specificity it helps with the conversation.
The I is, so given that action, what was the impact on me, right?
What was the impact?
And so very often what happens is is we respond based on actions.
The other person is actually responding not necessarily to your intentions, but often they're responding to what was the impact of the of that behavior.
So when you're getting feedback, you might say, so in the meeting during the presentation, I was about to review the numbers and it was at that point that you jumped in and said, hey, you know, wait a minute before we do that.
I think there's an opportunity to talk a little bit more about the marketing plan.
So the action was when you joined in at that moment, the impact on me at that moment was I felt frustrated.
I felt confused because I wasn't ready to go there.
And I think I was building the narrative that we agreed on.
That's the kind of that might share that with a colleague to say that was the action.
That was the impact on me.
And then the R for air is a request.
And so now that I've shared that the request might be so in future meetings, what I would find very helpful would be either a if you can hold that comment or if you could check in with me and say, so Collins, I know you're finishing the you know, your portion of the presentation.
When you're ready, I would like to maybe circle back and transition to cover another part.
How does that work with you?
So that's a specific request.
So then you give the other person some hooks and handles for how they can actually provide feedback for you that is less risky or certainly that in a way that you might feel that's more responsive.
Wow, I really like that air model.
The idea that you identify an action, that it's observable, it's objective that you can see you identify the impact that it had on you as the recipient of that action.
And then you make a request and I like the acronym and it helps you clear the air.
You know, when I teach this, the feedback skills, I love that you have a model that we can follow.
I look at feedback is really an invitation to problem -solve to try to figure out a way to work together.
And I love that this structure ends with the request.
It's your request, which could be, as you gave an example, a declaration, here's what I need from you, or it could be a question.
It could be an inquiry.
How can we collaborate together?
So I think if all of us were to embrace this air model, we could make our feedback more concise and more clear.
And what I really like is it also strips out some of the emotion, which leads to my next question about what thoughts and advice do you have on how to manage the emotions that we often feel when we find ourselves thinking about and actually in challenging communication situations.
When you find yourself in a situation, let's say I'm about to receive feedback from you as a colleague.
One of the things that's really anchoring is I might say a version of, so Matt, I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say really value, you know, your thoughts.
I must say at this moment, I'm feeling a range of emotions, which could be I'm both naturally have some anxiety because I don't know what you might say.
I might feel I may have disappointed you in a way that I'm not aware of, and that doesn't feel good.
And I'm also pretty curious because, you know, in the past you've really given me helpful feedback.
So I've got a mix of emotions.
I just want you to know that so that we know kind of what's in the room.
So there's a way in which rather than in some ways totally stripping away emotion and trying to make the feedback fully cognitive, what usually is more resonant and connecting is this can we then connect at that place?
Because then you might say you have more information.
You might say, oh, balance.
I didn't know that we work together a lot to me.
I wasn't, you know, I had no idea that this might be higher stakes for you.
And it gives you more choices in terms of, you know, how you might deliver the message or how we might then talk about what's going on.
Because very often what can happen is because we believe that we're delivering the message, full content, full details, and being quite helpful to another person.
And a person walks away not taking it in certainly in the way that we had hoped and sometimes that's because there was so much unexpressed emotion in the room.
They weren't fully prepared to hear it in a way.
And so if and then you walk away believing that they did and then it can lead to again further sort of missed expectations further down the line.
So that's that's one of the things that we like to think about in terms of like, can we just honor and make a part of our experience and I might say to you just like you said, you know, on the request side, it would also be helpful, Matt, for me to hear how are you like, what's going on for you in terms
of this, are you feeling any of this?
You know, similar emotions, different emotions.
So starting from this place of I like to say very often connection before coaching is really powerful, right?
Because very often our best coaching happens sometimes and we forgot to actually connect emotionally with the other person and they can easily miss it.
And as you know, this happens in our professional relationships and it often happens in our our dear personal relationships as well.
Well, first and foremost Collins, I would never give you negative feedback about the information you share.
You give wonderful advice and guidance and thank you for clarifying the role that emotion plays in and I have to agree that that naming emotions owning emotions and then it sounds like soliciting input on others emotions can really help and this notion of connecting before coaching is really powerful
because a lot of us want to jump right to that coaching piece.
Here's what you need to do to be better or different or to help me or to help yourself.
But making that connection on an emotional level sounds like is absolutely critical to have lasting impact.
I'm curious, you triggered a question in my mind, are there things we can do when we are receiving feedback to help us be more open to it?
I know personally that there are times where I will get very defensive, especially if I know potential critical feedback is coming.
Are there things that you teach or perhaps you do in your own life to help you be more receptive when you're receiving constructive feedback?
I tell you one of the things that I've noticed when often feedback gets spoken about is it is often a lot more focus on the process and the skill set in delivering emotions versus receiving emotions.
And I actually believe that the leverage of a strong feedback conversation actually sits with the receiver by Enlarge.
And so what I love about your question is one of the things that I then try to do is adopt that mindset first because right if I think that on the receiving side, I just kind of am without agency.
I feel naturally to your point most people can often then feel quite defensive and I'm just sort of less open.
But if I can adopt the mindset on the receiving side that you know what I have some agency about this is data.
I will kind of hear it from a place of curiosity and interest and I have some choices about what I do with that which could be a range of a right now that might feel a little bit too much for me to deal with but I appreciate it and will study that a little more and follow up with you later as I kind
of get grounded with that or B I might say that's a great idea.
I hadn't thought about that.
Can you help me unpack that a little more in terms of impact on you or other examples so I can actually learn something about it or you know I might do something totally different with it.
But if I then as the receiver can put myself in a place of curiosity a place of agency and a place of like kind of openness to this can as you were talking about feedback being learning and problem solving it opens up a whole new world of possibilities.
Wow the power of having the right approach and mindset can certainly make a difference and I love that that notion of curiosity and interest in what the person is saying.
We've done a lot of talking on this podcast about seeing opportunities and offers in other people's actions relative to us and the feedback is an offer.
It's an offer to help us be better to help us grow perhaps change in a direction we hadn't thought of but you have to have the right mindset and the notion of agency strikes me as being so important.
I often think of when I talk to my kids that I want to when giving them feedback give them a sense that they have some control in the situation and it sounds like that agency goes beyond the parenting relationship I couldn't be involved in lots of other relationships as well.
One of the things I appreciate so much about the work you do Collins is not only is the advice just very actionable it's really memorable too.
I like the air model.
It's easy to remember the acronym.
I like the connect before coaching.
I have heard you also talk about pace space grace.
Can you define what you mean by this and how can we benefit by deploying these concepts?
Thank you Matt. I play basketball in college and one of the things that we talked a lot about was you know when you're thinking about a game plan depending on who you're playing against you know pacing and spacing right on the floor and all of that.
So those two concepts have sort of been in my mindset as I think about organizations as I think about game plans as I think about strategies and one of the things that has sort of emerged for me you know more recently is it comes up so much in communications and leadership effectiveness which is we're living
at such a pace of 2021 which is usually super fast in the pandemic it can feel quite distanced but still fast with Zoom and we're like we're trying to take in so many data so much data from so many different sources that the pace just feels really generally rushed and even prepandemic it was the same
way. So sometimes the myths or the opportunities as a coach very often is I try to slow it down and take a look at you know the themes what's coming up.
How do we explore emotions?
What are our hopes?
What are our desires?
What are the patterns that we're recognizing ourselves and others?
Can we slow down long enough to unpack sort of more of what's there which leads a little bit to the space?
So what often happens I noticed in relationships or from coaching is over time you know we work together with colleagues we begin to have a shorthand or you know shorter expectations and what sometimes can happen or people in our life what sometimes can happen is we start to actually narrow the possibilities
not even knowing it.
We start to narrow the possibilities of you know what the other person's actions might be or our actions might be and so sometimes what I like to say is okay we feel like we're a stuck place.
Can we pull back and create some space for other potential opportunities?
Where else might this go?
What else have we not considered?
How might this be different than what we had hoped?
So there's something about that's freeing I think for us individually and often the people we're working with when we can kind of pull back and slow down and just notice breathe differently pacing notice that there may be other interesting possibilities that we hadn't considered and very often solutions
can come from the additional space that we create with each other.
And I would say the last thing that there is often a lot of concern about I'm not exactly sure I know the right thing to say in this difficult conversation right.
So I have a choice there.
So I might either then withhold and just say it's just not worth saying it and usually what happens is if we start to develop that pattern so much goes unsaid over time that the behaviors that we start we start to interact with each other from a pretty distorted reality in terms of what's really there.
So so part of what I like to think about is this can we contract with speak with each other directly about you know what there's going to there will be times in which I will do some things I didn't say I might do some things I will do some things that might disappoint you or that might leave you dissatisfied and so will you
write in a relationship over time can we agree that in those moments we will step back and we will allow ourselves a little a little grace right.
We will allow ourselves to say you know we're not perfect and we are trying and we will make space with each other to do a deeper die.
Well to refer back to your basketball career in college what a slam dunk of good advice there this notion of slowing things down so you can see the situation as it is giving yourself a wider view of the decision space that you're in so you can see other potential solutions or options and this notion of I
like how you phrased it contracting with others to have an agreement that we're going to give each other a little grace a little bit of acceptance can certainly help in in myriad situations not just in challenging situations but lots of other situations so I really appreciate that advice.
Before we end I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone who joins me are you up for that Collins.
I am excellent then here's our first question if you were to capture the best communication advice you ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title what would it be communication is a team sport.
Whoo I love it from a basketball player even help me understand how it's a team sport.
I have to think about my role my responsibilities and things that matter to me and I have to think about my teammates right role responsibilities and I have to think about how we perform based upon challenges ahead of ourselves so there's something that I like that I that this is a we're in this together
and I have to be more expansive and not just go internal and become defensive or only see my my world that analogy is so powerful it brings up so many things you have to coordinate you have to work together you have to collaborate so many things so I love that and it came in at five words instead of seven
which is also exciting.
Collins who is it a communicator that you admire and why I would say Martin Luther King when I what I'm drawn to in Martin Luther King it was a combination of certain certainly competence right it was the it was the connection of the voice it was the connection of the rhythm of it it was in addition to
that Matt there was always sort of these many bigger subtle messages that were very provocative and I also think in many cases they were also very collaborative often left with thinking about what else about this did I not hear and so he would be the one communicator that I go back and listen to over
and over again and I'll learn something new and different Wow well such a tribute to Dr.
Martin Luther King Jr.
who was a phenomenal communicator and did so by blending so many different techniques and thorough understanding of how to create a story that's compelling and as you said a true testament of a good communicator is the desire to hear more from the person and go back and reflect on what they said so thank
you for sharing the final question what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe knowing the audience and believing that we're in it together you need to know yourself and understand where you're coming from you have to take the time to understand and appreciate
your audience and then really take that extra step that it's a collaborative endeavor communication is a collaborative endeavor and as we mentioned earlier it's not always pleasant there are times where you have to have challenging conversations but by leveraging the tools that you so graciously shared
with us today about how to structure feedback how to take a sense of agency when receiving feedback about how to look at communication as a coordinated effort has been so helpful Collins I thank you so much your advice and feedback resonate very loudly for me and I hope for our listeners thank you for your
time Matt thank you for inviting me and thank you for the wonderful work that you do Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart the podcast produced by Stanford University's Graduate School of Business for more information and episodes visit gsb .stanford .edu or subscribe to our
show wherever you get your podcasts finally find us on social media at stanford .gsb
