I'm Clayton Eckerd.
In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor.
But here's the thing.
Bachelor fans hated him.
If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would.
That's when his life took a disturbing turn.
A one-night stand would end in a courtroom.
The media is here.
This case has gone viral.
The dating contract.
Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you.
This is unlike anything I've ever seen before.
I'm Stephanie Young.
Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Amanda Knox and in the new podcast Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023.
But what if we didn't get the whole story?
Evidence has been made to fit.
The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed.
What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe?
Oh my God, I think she might be innocent.
Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letbe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.
Her husband Mike was on his laptop.
What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.
I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.
And immediately, the mask came off.
You're supposed to be safe.
That's your home.
That's your husband.
Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, it's Jill Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life.
And today I'm talking with my dear friend, Krista Williams.
It can change you in the best way possible.
Dance with the change.
Dance with the breakdowns.
The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves.
So I'm like delusionally proud of my chart.
Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
You know Roald Dahl.
He thought up Willy Wonka and the BFG.
But did you know he was a spy?
In the new podcast, The Secret World of Roald Dahl, I'll tell you that story and much, much more.
What?
You probably won't believe it either.
Was this before he wrote his stories?
It must have been.
Okay, I don't think that's true.
I'm telling you.
The guy was a spy.
Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hello everybody, I'm Gemma Spike and welcome back to The Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode, as we, of course, break down the psychology of our 20s.
Today we're talking about a relationship style, relationship dynamic that many of you are probably familiar with, either through name or through experience.
You may not have the words to describe it.
I know when I first heard about it, I didn't, but it's called the pursuer-distancer dynamic.
If you have ever been in a situation where the moment you feel yourself getting close to somebody or closer to someone, they pull away, or where you're constantly wanting more from somebody, asking somebody to meet your emotional needs and they just feel incapable of it, or they tell you that they feel suffocated by you or that you are too much, that they need space, you have likely experienced this dynamic as a pursuer.
Alternatively, if you have ever been in a relationship, been in a situation where you you genuinely feel a little bit overwhelmed and you feel like you really need time,
You really need space.
You really need distance to yourself in a relationship.
You really feel pressured by somebody, maybe even getting the ick from their affection, even though you really like them.
You've maybe experienced this dynamic as the distancer
In very, very simple terms, the pursuer-distancer dynamic involves one person seeking a deeper connection whilst the other person resists it for whatever reason, and And this creates a very frustrating cycle where one person tries to get closer to the other person to fulfill their own unique emotional needs, which causes the other person to withdraw to protect their needs, to compensate for that space.
Then the pursuer tries harder. to get even closer.
The distancer pulls away even further and you kind of see the situation and the cycle that we end up in.
And it ultimately continues and ultimately both people end up pretty unhappy and pretty hurt.
I've had so many requests for episodes which discuss dynamics like this, especially for people in their 20s who are kind of encountering this for the first time and thinking like what's wrong with me?
Or like, why can't I get close to somebody?
Why don't people love me back?
Why do I find love so hard?
Nothing is wrong with you.
Whichever role you keep falling into, this dynamic is just really complicated.
It is formed by so many things we often have very little control over and very little awareness over, from neurobiology and to attachment style, to our nervous system, even to our child psychology, and so that is what we are going to explore today.
What is this dynamic?
Why do people find themselves in this dynamic?
Can you get out of it?
Is there something that either person can do to fix a relationship that has fallen into this rut?
And what does that look like?
So that's what we're going to touch on today.
Without further ado, let's get into the psychology behind the pursuer-distancer relationship dynamic.
On the surface, the pursuer-distancer dynamic, I think, seems very intuitive, right?
There's generally one person who wants more, one person who wants less.
The person who wants more, the pursuer.
The person who wants less is the distancer.
I feel like we already kind of went through this, but just as a reminder.
The pursuer, typically, it's not that just they want more of everything.
What they really want more of is connection and intimacy. and reassurance.
They want to fight through their fights.
They want to know that everything's okay.
They want to know why somebody's angry with them.
They want to work it out in the moment.
They want to know they're loved.
They want more date nights.
They want maybe more sex.
They don't want enmeshment.
They just want very deep intimacy.
That is a core need for them.
In contrast, the distancer It's not that they don't want that.
It's just that it's a little bit harder for them.
They prefer their alone time.
They need their space.
They like to process things independently.
They value quality time over the quantity of time.
They don't like feeling smothered.
Sometimes they push the other person away, Not because they don't love them, not because they're not interested, but just because it is too much and that can come off as really, really dismissive.
Of course it's going to.
It's going to come off as if this person doesn't want to be with you.
It's not always like that, but I think this is like the general profile of each role.
That's typically what it would appear like from the outside.
It's also worth noting.
This doesn't just happen in romantic relationships, but in friendships as well.
Even sometimes with parents.
One friend, for example, really wants more, more of everything.
More one-on-one time, more invitations, more of a connection, and the other person is maybe fearful of being engulfed by that friendship, fearful of becoming too dependent on that one person, fearful of being hurt.
Again, like I said, it may also happen with parenting, where a parent can feel really uneasy by this idea that their whole identity is going to become that of a mom or that of a dad.
So they push their child to be independent so that they can be as well.
That is a whole other episode.
It's a lot less common, maybe more common actually.
It's really actually the root of a lot of attachment pain.
But yeah, the pursuer-distancer dynamic gets a big hype in relationships.
And when you start looking for it, you kind of see it everywhere.
The thing is, it's not wholly unhealthy, right?
In itself, it's not that terrible.
Maybe people are going to be mad at me for saying that, but every relationship will have some aspect of distancing and pursuing in it.
Dare I say it's healthy to have that chase, for both people to occasionally play each role in a fight to show the other person they care about them or even, when it comes to intimacy, to feel needed to also feel a little bit needy.
There have been a lot of relationship therapists who would say that the push and pull on that level keeps a spark alive.
However, when A, both people always play the same role all the time.
B, both people feel frustrated by the other's reaction.
And C, they can't talk about it.
They can't see the other person's perspective.
They're not willing to change.
That is where we have the unhealthy pursuer-distancer dynamic.
Nobody is happy.
And the thing is is that each person is also constantly triggered by the other person, and Because there is so much natural friction, leading to this impasse.
In this situation, where one person wants more and one person wants less, I think the real issue is who should have to compromise.
Whose way wins?
Who has to receive... less or more or a different amount of the behavior that they want.
So there was this source at the Gottman Institute, which is one of the world's biggest research labs on love and dating.
And this person basically says that This dynamic is one of the main reasons that couples fall out of love.
They researched thousands of couples on this, pursue a distance, a dynamic and they discovered that when people get stuck in this dynamic whether they are, I don't know 19 27 49, whatever it is they have more than an 80 chance of breaking up or divorcing in the next four to five years.
Those aren't good odds.
So we really do need to understand what's actually going on below the surface, what's happening in each person's mind.
Let's actually start with the distancer in this dynamic.
There is this wonderful man, his name is Augustus Napier.
I think that's how you pronounce it.
And he is a pioneer in the field of family therapy.
He's worked with hundreds of couples on this.
And in his research he observed that when someone engages in strong distancing behavior, or what they are really motivated by, is fear.
Fear of being engulfed in a relationship, fear of losing a sense of self, and a big part of that is social conditioning.
This idea that they don't need anyone.
This applies to all genders, but sometimes with men as well.
It's because they're scared of being too reliant.
They've been taught that they shouldn't be that way.
In general.
It's this fear of being so attached that if the other person was to leave, if the other person was to disappear, what would they do?
Who would they be without that person?
That's a strong reason why the distancer is the way they is.
You can also just see how much of this comes down to past experience in childhood with parents, as somebody who wanted unconditional love from a parent, from a caregiver, and realizing that wasn't on offer, realizing that you could only ever rely on yourself.
But also from early romantic relationships, even friendships, where at some stage the distancer has thought this person is amazing.
This person is the one.
I'll give them everything.
I'll show them how invested I am.
And it didn't end well.
They left.
They found a new best friend.
They didn't love them back in the same way.
And our minds, our bodies hold on to that.
They store it in a very deep and dark place.
And they then change our body.
Our mind then changes all of our future behaviors to avoid that ever happening again at all costs.
We don't want to live through that hurt.
We don't want to be disappointed in somebody else again.
And the best way to ensure that is to just hold everyone at arm's length.
It's just to make sure that there is always something just for you.
Something they don't know about.
A past, a memory, a hobby, a friendship that you can escape into, should you feel overwhelmed, should things be going pear-shaped.
To them, it's safety.
It's insurance.
But to the pursuer, that looks like secrets.
It looks like distance.
It looks like an unwillingness to try and open up.
It may also come down to simply how they learned to self-regulate.
I think I just mentioned it, but a big part of being a distancer as personal history is that they obviously learned that they needed to take care of their own emotions and their own problems.
There is a great deal of overlap here, with hyper-independence and emotional avoidance and only needing to rely on themselves.
And this isn't always because their parents or their family were neglectful or something went wrong.
It's simply that at some stage in their life, they've encountered stress.
They've encountered something that was very heavy, maybe not traumatic, just very heavy.
And they realized that if they could just deal with it themselves, maybe that was more effective.
They didn't need to be let down.
Maybe there wasn't somebody there available to help them.
They didn't want to be a burden.
Especially, I think, with guys, right?
Big emotions.
Maybe they did have a chance to express them once and it wasn't taken well.
So now it's that idea that approaches off the table.
Essentially, what they realized was that when something bad happens, if they go away and if they self-isolate and if they rationalize a problem enough, it will be solved.
And they won't have to rely on somebody else's assistance.
And maybe they won't have to be burdened by somebody else's emotional problems at times as well.
It just feels a lot more freer that they just have themselves.
So that is the emotional blueprint they follow.
This is the wound they're entering with.
And the pursuer is entering with what seems like a very different wound, but is actually probably the same one.
That same researcher, Napier.
He observed in similar research that when looking at pursuing behavior, This individual is often motivated by a fear of rejection, a fear of being left alone.
So they seek frequent, intense connection to soothe that fear.
For them.
They maybe actually went through some of the very same experiences as the distancer of being left, of being hurt, of feeling unseen.
But their reaction to it has been to go deeper, to not leave any gap between them and the other person for distance to occur.
Part of pursuing behavior is emotional monitoring, right?
Constantly being like, hey, are you okay?
Are you mad at me?
Can we talk about that?
Like what's going on?
Wanting to keep tabs on how our relationship is going.
That's probably very healthy.
But then sometimes it getting to a point of like constant reassurance seeking, constantly needing to know every second of the other person's emotions so that there is no opportunity to be blindsided.
How do you prevent yourself from being blindsided, from being left?
Is making sure that every single emotion is visible at every single time.
Every single issue that could come up, you were aware of it a hundred kilometers down the road.
That's why a big part of pursuer's behavior is yes.
Doing the emotional labor of the relationship, doing the relationship maintenance, bringing up problems because they want a future with this person, but also because maybe a part of them is like this way I kind of get insight into if something's going to blow up in my face.
And that can sometimes develop into yeah again, a compulsion or a very intense behavior for the distancer, not an intense behavior on itself, but an intense behavior for the distancer of like why are you always in my business?
Why do you always want so much from me?
And it's not that this person or any person in the situation is broken or has done anything wrong.
It's just how they are responding to the prospect of being hurt and to the prospect of social pain.
Something you may be asking.
If the wound is maybe similar, what makes one person go one way and somebody go the other?
What makes somebody a distancer and somebody makes somebody a pursuer?
Again, yeah, a bit of it comes down to past experiences.
A bit of it comes down to socialization.
I feel like we could say a lot more men are probably going to be distances than women.
Not that it's an exclusive thing, but majorly it's nervous system regulation yet again.
From a regulation standpoint, These patterns often map onto different stress responses.
Distances often lean towards a deactivating strategy.
So when stress rises, their nervous system says like reduce intensity, pull back, self-soothe alone, and pursuers lean towards what we call a hyper-activating strategy.
So when stress rises, their system says Get your hands dirty, increase proximity, seek reassurance.
Problem solve here.
Close the distance gap between you and the other person.
Again, both people are trying to manage the same underlying fear.
I don't want to feel that original wound again.
I don't want to be hurt again.
They're just doing it in a different way that when these two people find each other, actually makes it worse for both people.
There is this famous idea in Carl Jung's work of the container and the contained.
And essentially what he says is that when you look at anybody, we're all going to lean slightly towards one of these two people, styles or systems.
Are you going to be the container or the distancer, who finds emotional security within the self, or the contained, the pursuer, who finds security in the relationship?
And I think with this, we can more clearly see the dance that's going on here.
One step in, one step back.
Actually, both people are always moving in synchronicity, just in opposite directions.
Never touching, never close enough for one person, too close for the other.
The question we may all be asking at this point I know I've certainly asked this is why do people stay?
Why do these two kinds of people find each other So often if, from our point of view, it looks like they just shouldn't work out?
Why is this relationship dynamic so common?
Well, that is what we are going to reveal after this short break.
Stay with us.
Hi, this is Jill Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life.
And I just sat down with a mini driver.
The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men.
Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary.
Okay.
Aquarius is all about freedom loving and different perspectives.
And I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius like are misunderstood.
A sun and Venus in Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.
He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the isness of it all.
If you're navigating your own transformation, or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity and real life, this episode is a must listen.
Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze. her husband Mike was on his laptop.
What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.
I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.
And immediately, the mask came off.
You're supposed to be safe.
That's your home.
That's your husband.
To keep this secret for so many years...
He's like a seasoned pro.
This is a story about the end of a marriage.
But it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark.
You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people.
Your predator might go up in good.
Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast.
This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families.
Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime.
He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground.
He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator.
Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years imprisonment.
I'm like, Lord, this can't be real.
I thought it was a mistaken identity.
The best lie is partial truth.
For 22 years, only two people knew the truth.
Until a confession changed everything.
I was a monster.
Listen to Burden of Guilt, Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
We talk about what it's taken to grow up in the entertainment industry and stay grounded through every chapter.
It's a raw and honest conversation about identity, evolution and building a life that truly matters.
You desire in family like this picture, and that's not reality a lot of the time.
It's for people.
My sister and I don't speak.
It's definitely a very painful part of my life, and I hope it's not forever, but it's for right now.
Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG.
But did you know he was also a spy?
Was this before he wrote his stories?
It must have been.
Our new podcast series.
The Secret World of Roald Dahl is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life.
His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans.
What?
And he was really good at it.
You probably won't believe it either.
Okay, I don't think that's true.
I'm telling you, the guy was a spy.
Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelts, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman?
And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film.
How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever?
And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids?
The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote.
Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
The key thing to know, neither person in this relationship is wrong.
Nobody is the problem.
Nobody is the bad guy.
I think distances get a bad rap as like the damaged one, but that's not true.
Both people have wounds, the same way that we all have.
We all have baggage that we bring into a relationship and we throw all over the floor and we have to figure out which items are ours and which items are the other person's.
The thing is, if a distancer dated another distancer, it would probably be okay.
And if a pursuer dated another pursuer, it would probably be smooth sailing.
It's not to say those relationships aren't going to have issues.
But it's not the individuals that are the problem.
It's the friction that is caused.
Distances and pursuers find each other a lot, because of the challenge the other person presents, but also because of this desire to kind of fit into each other's lives.
They kind of both want a little bit of what the other person has.
The ability to get truly close to somebody for the distancer and the ability to be a little bit more mysterious and elusive for the pursuer.
It's intoxicating.
It's like this yin and yang situation where they both are kind of seeking something that they're not.
The other thing is that at different times during the pursuit distance cycle, each person is briefly going to get what they want.
And that is the intoxicating thing.
At some stage right in this whole cycle, the pursuer is going to get really upset and they're going to pull all the way back and they're going to revert to the silent treatment.
They're going to use tools they haven't thought to use yet.
They're going to be exhausted.
They're going to be like, fine, I'm going to go.
I'm going to give you all the distance.
And in doing this, they actually give the distance exactly what they want.
And the distance to finally feels calm enough, regulated enough, able to process things enough.
So they come back.
And ironically, now the pursuer gets what they want.
It's like, huh, finally, this person is here again.
The intimacy is back.
The chance to repair and heal is here.
And the thing is, is that this looks like forward movement.
It looks like healing.
It looks like You've discovered the secret to getting the distancer closer and the distancer has discovered the secret to getting the pursuer to move further away.
It is literally just the same desperate pattern in a new form.
When this happens, very briefly, both people switch roles for a short period of time.
This makes self-identification as the pursuer or distancer really a lot harder and very confusing, because if both people are, at sometimes very small amounts of times, playing the other role, surely it's not an issue.
But the opposite role doesn't come naturally.
Again, this is temporary.
This is a small switch.
This is a symptom of the cycle continuing.
Both people get so worked up that they briefly become the other person.
So what is the long-term damage happening here?
And how do these relationships often end?
Therapists talk about this point.
In a relationship like this, where the person who has always been the emotional seeker, the one who wants closeness, who spurs on those deep conversations, they just become silent.
They become what we call a burnt out pursuer.
They basically just stop reacting altogether.
Again, as we were describing, this situation of just like My hands are up in the air.
I don't know what to do.
I don't know how to get you closer to me.
So I'm just going to give up.
And yeah, therapists talk about this moment and they say like, this is when I get scared.
This is when it looks like the relationship is probably going to break apart for good.
And the thing is is that it may look like it comes all at once, but If you are the pursuer, you've probably been running this race for a long time.
There have been so many rounds of the same cycle of pulling back, them stepping forward.
There's a temporary closeness.
It all looks great, optimistic, and then things slowly return to the way they are.
You have probably had so many times of being like, all I want is for you to say that you love me.
All I want is for you to say is to work on a problem with me.
All I want is for you to remember the small things, to want to fix things in our relationship.
And the emotional load just becomes too heavy.
And then again, when it gets to this point, there is no coming back.
This other person has sacrificed their needs for too long.
The distancer might also have a moment like this where they just feel so tired, so unnatural by trying to change for this other person that they just jump ship.
They panic.
They don't just become the distancer, they become the fleer, they just can't do it anymore.
The mismatch becomes too evident.
And people are left hurt.
People are left frustrated and saddened that they gave so many months or years trying to compromise.
And you might look at that and think, what did they expect?
And the thing is, though, this isn't the only outcome.
You might think this is always going to be how to pursue a distance in relationships, how the course goes, but there is actually things that people can do to break out of this.
That's the good news in this.
This is the worst case scenario, but Our brains are malleable.
They're neuroplastic, even into old age.
Given the right conditions, if you were in this situation right now, you can adapt your brain to form new synaptic connections, to replace old relationship patterns with healthy ones, to find a new way of bonding and caring and being with somebody else.
If you want to change,
Even if you recognize yourself in what we are speaking about today, there's nothing to say that it is all doom and gloom.
Because the core thing here is if you can relate, you are self-aware, you can see the cycle taking place.
And if your partner can also see the cycle taking place as well, your chances are so much better.
That self-awareness is the most critical thing I think I've learned from so many years of just reading the research.
But it does take a lot of compromise from both people to mend and to bring.
Both people have to want to be at the table.
And I think the hard thing is that sometimes the distancer doesn't want to be.
They want things to be okay between each other, but the emotional debt of having to try is just too much for them.
So if you do want to work through this, you really just have to start with self-compassion.
If you're trapped in this cycle being angry at yourself, being frustrated, being like what do I expect?
This is never going to work out. isn't going to help you.
You need to allow yourself space to feel composed, to feel clear about what you want and to be able to regulate your nervous system again, not in the way that you have been doing, which is to either seek an artificial level of closeness or seek an artificial level of distance.
Perhaps you are in the cycle because of the reasons that we've spoken about, because of psychological childhood wounds.
Acknowledge this, give yourself grace and really ask yourself.
You know, if I had a choice, I probably wouldn't choose this.
That means that it's probably not my fault.
That doesn't give you an excuse to then treat somebody in a way that doesn't feel kind, or to be like, or to keep hurting yourself even.
But it may also and definitely will just give you some kindness and provide an explanation for why you are the way you are, instead of just because I'm a bad person or because I don't deserve love.
Secondly, you need to have that compassion for the other person.
You need to realize that the same way you have wounds, they have wounds as well.
It's just that they are acting out their own subconscious, unconscious processes in a different way.
They are looking for the intimacy that they lack in a different way, just different to you.
You are both trying to feel whole again through this relationship and to feel loved, and equally you're hurting each other, but that's not the way it has to be.
Basically, you need to step into their shoes and be like essentially, why would I be the way that I am?
Let's swap positions here.
Why would I continue a cycle like this?
Why would I always put distance?
Why would I always need more closeness?
Can you have empathy for the other person's position?
If you can, I think that's like, amazing progress.
I think then, each person needs to integrate the part they're struggling with, and they need to be committed to change.
Here's the hurdle.
Here's the deal breaker.
Especially if you are a pursuer right now, listen up.
If you're the only one putting in effort here, if they just keep making excuses.
This isn't about being a pursuer.
This isn't about being a distancer.
This is about respect.
And at this point, it's about whether or not they care about you.
Obviously, labeling our behavior matters.
But when it becomes a shield of like.
Well, you know, I just didn't reply to your message for three days because I'm a distancer.
I forgot your birthday because I'm a distancer.
Or alternatively, like, no, I went through your phone because I'm a pursuer.
That's not about labels.
It's about respect.
And it's not respect.
And it's not healthy.
And it's not about empathy for the other person or for ourselves.
It's an excuse.
Be honest with yourself and with the other person and all together.
Are you guys capable of change?
Is this person you are with capable of change?
Have they given any evidence for it?
And are they showing you movement that isn't just the same cycle or are they showing shortcuts?
For the anxious person, you need to genuinely learn to self-soothe.
You need to learn that you are actually super capable of taking a beat, of taking care of yourself, of reassurance, of seeking safety inside of you.
And for the avoidant, I think there needs to be this like test period.
This period of like I'm just going to see what happens when I take the risk and I talk about my problems.
I've never done it before or it's ended badly before.
If I'm going to lose this person, what else do I have to risk?
I'm going to try.
I'm going to tell them I had a terrible day at work.
I'm going to tell them that I'm struggling mentally.
I'm just going to test how it would feel to be open about that.
And I'm going to trust As much as I can, in my whole body, I'm going to trust that this person isn't going to let me down and it's going to hold me emotionally in a way that I probably have always wanted to be held.
Both of you then need to do the hardest thing in situations like this, which is realize that you could get hurt.
That is a possibility here.
Throughout this whole thing, actually, this is the most important thing to realize.
I think, especially in your 20s, sometimes the best relationships are those that could crush you the deepest because you care about them so much.
You know that feeling when you look at somebody and you're like I really hope you don't hurt me, but this could really hurt me.
I think you kind of owe it to yourself to bet on that relationship.
Because even if it doesn't work out, at least you felt how deeply you could go.
Even if people make mistakes, at least you experience true repair.
At least you could kind of see how much love you truly have to give.
I can totally understand if you don't agree with this, but I think so often we use playing it safe as an excuse to actually be avoidant.
You could get hurt here.
No amount of protective mechanisms or behaviors, no amount of withdrawing or moving closer is going to stop somebody from breaking your heart if the relationship wasn't going to work in the first place.
But continuing to adopt those behaviors thinking they're going to protect you, thinking they're going to save you is most certainly going to break your heart more, because it's going to rule out all of these people who could have given you so many amazing experiences and could have given you so much.
So when you look at the other person across from you and you acknowledge this could really hurt me, is this the person that you'd be willing to do that for?
That's just like the question you have to get to the point of answering at the end of the day.
And then you have to trust that they won't.
You have to trust that if you put in the steps to be different, they will also do that.
If you give somebody space, if you ask somebody to come in further, they are going to be committed to it.
And the outcome for both of you is worth it because people do change out of this.
People do find wonderful healthy marriages and long-term relationships, having come into love and having come into dating with this dynamic.
Okay, we are going to take one final tiny break here before we discuss, I think, the final big question of the day.
I don't know if you guys are asking this, but it's definitely one that me and my friends have spoken about, which is is it worth it in your 20s?
Is this kind of relationship, and the commitment that you need for this kind of relationship, something that you should be doing during this decade?
Hi, this is Jo Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life.
And I just sat down with a mini driver.
The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men.
Storyteller and unapologetic Aquarian visionary.
Aquarius is all about freedom, loving and different perspectives and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius like are misunderstood.
A sun and Venus in Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.
He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms on different houses in different places, but just an embracing of the is-ness of it all.
If you're navigating your own transformation, or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity and real life, This episode is a must listen.
Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.
Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop.
What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.
I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.
And immediately, the mask came off.
You're supposed to be safe.
That's your home.
That's your husband.
To keep this secret for so many years, he's like a seasoned pro.
This is a story about the end of a marriage, but it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark.
You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people.
Your creditor might go up in good.
Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast.
This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families.
Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime.
He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground.
He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator.
Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years imprisonment.
I'm like, Lord, this can't be real.
I thought it was a mistaken identity.
The best lie is partial truth.
For 22 years, only two people knew the truth.
Until a confession changed everything.
I was a monster.
Listen to Burden of Guilt, Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG.
But did you know he was also a spy?
Was this before he wrote his stories?
It must have been.
Our new podcast series.
The Secret World of Roald Dahl is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life.
His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans.
What?
And he was really good at it.
You probably won't believe it either.
Okay, I don't think that's true.
I'm telling you, the guy was a spy.
Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelts, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman?
And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film.
How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever?
And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids?
The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote.
Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
We talk about what it's taken to grow up in the entertainment industry and stay grounded through every chapter.
It's a raw and honest conversation about identity, evolution and building a life that truly matters.
You desire in family like this picture and that's not reality a lot of the time.
It's for people.
My sister and i don't speak.
It's definitely a very painful part of my life and i hope it's not forever, but it's for right now.
Listen to on purpose with jay shetty on the iheart radio app, apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
As i said, A controversial question to finish us off for today.
A question I don't actually know the answer to, but I thought it could stir up some thoughts.
Is this dynamic worth it in your 20s, especially maybe in your early 20s?
What I kind of mean by this question is, and what I mean by this dilemma is that when you're in your early 20s, when you're in your 20s, there is this narrative that the world is full of opportunities for love.
The world is wide.
The world is open to you.
There are so many fish in the sea.
Should you be spending time in relationships that ask you to change and to do so much for the other person?
Is it worth working through this with somebody, or should you cut your losses and find a distancer?
Find a pursuer who more matches your style.
What I think is that sometimes we confuse discomfort in a relationship with pure misalignment.
Relationships are always going to have their problem.
Maybe this is just your problem.
The pursuer distance dynamic is uncomfortable.
It activates you.
It brings up old wounds.
It exposes your attachment system in ways that feel almost embarrassing.
It's not embarrassing.
That's just the way it feels.
But discomfort alone isn't the reason or a reason to not try.
Sometimes discomfort, especially in your 20s, is data.
Personally, I think this decade it's not just for collecting experiences, it's also for collecting awareness.
That is why, even if this relationship with the distancer, with the pursuer, doesn't last, it is still worth its weight in lessons.
If you notice that you consistently choose emotionally unavailable people, that's not random.
If you notice that you feel bored when somebody is consistent and is safe, that's not random.
If you panic the moment somebody gets close or somebody gets a little bit of space, that is not random.
These are patterns that the research shows us will be repeated again and again in life in your 20s, until consciously examined.
Because patterns don't dissolve just because the person you're in a relationship with changes.
What I mean by that is that if you leave, every time the pursuer-distancer dynamic gets activated, you're probably just going to find yourself in another pursuer-distancer dynamic.
You may feel temporarily relieved You got out of that situation, but this is your blueprint.
You're going to find a very similar individual attractive very, very soon.
The dance just starts with somebody new.
That is what so many longitudinal attachment studies have shown us.
Our internal models for relationships are remarkably stable unless they are actively worked on.
And I'm not saying fixed, I'm not saying cured, but brought into awareness.
So I think as a pursuer in your 20s, it is worth asking yourself, why am I like this?
Why is this showing up in all of my relationships?
And is there somebody I feel safe enough to tackle that with?
And as a distancer, it's worth asking, why does closeness feel so engulfing?
Why does needing to be pursued rather than pursuing feel like a connection?
Why do i feel attracted when there is uncertainty and when there is certainty i lose interest?
Like this is worth exploring whether the person you explore it with ends up being the one or not.
You know, I know people won't agree with that, but I just think your 20s are the safest time to confront this and to really go deep in a relationship like this if the other person is somebody you really care about.
Because the stakes are emotionally high, yes, but logistically lower.
Especially in your early 20s.
You might not share children, you might not share mortgages.
You definitely don't share decades and decades of shared history and family.
So you have flexibility, you have time, you have room to experiment, you have time to repair.
Working through a dynamic with somebody who is willing to self-reflect is going to be what I think would be transformative.
Again, the relationship might not last forever.
There is no promise of that.
Remember we made a promise to each other that we have to be okay with getting hurt, but because you have the opportunity to learn, to learn what it's maybe like to, to not always play the same role in a relationship and to not always be that like same hurt individual who enters every relationship looking for something that, no matter what the other person like, cannot give you because you're either looking in the wrong places or searching for it in people who aren't willing to change.
That being said, this is not a blanket endorsement to stay in every relationship that triggers you.
There is a difference between a dynamic that is two self-aware people trying to grow and a dynamic that is one person refusing to take responsibility.
Sometimes, let's be real, someone isn't a distancer.
They just don't like you that much.
It's a hard pill to swallow, but it's true.
And trying to label them into wanting to work on their behavior.
Trying to be like don't you see, like you're a distancer.
That's why this isn't working.
It's not going to work if they genuinely don't care.
Same thing with a pursuer.
Sometimes they're not a pursuer.
Sometimes they just genuinely don't have boundaries and don't have respect for you.
I think through all this discussion, this is definitely where I want to leave things.
Be able to identify what is a pattern, what is a wound, and what is just a genuine lack of interest.
If someone is dismissive of your emotional bids, if you never get out what you give, if you never feel comfortable enough to say I want to address this.
This isn't working.
I don't like how this is going.
This person isn't it.
And again, it's not about the role you guys play in a relationship.
It's not about what dynamic you are falling into.
It's just because you guys are not right for each other.
And it's just because this other person isn't emotionally safe enough to work through a complicated situation with you.
And love is complicated.
Relationships are complicated and hard.
And half of why they are beautiful, I think, in our 20s beyond, is because somebody else is like yeah okay, I'm committed to doing that with you, whatever the outcome.
So if they're not, it's never going to be as good as you want it to be.
And it's definitely your sign to call it quits.
So with all of that in mind, a final summary.
The pursuer-distancer relationship dynamic, unbelievably prevalent, by the way, even over the course of researching this episode,
Not that I seek all of my examples from my friends and family, but it's definitely apparent in past relationships of mine and in people that I see around me.
Once you start noticing it, you cannot stop noticing it.
We do all typically fall one way, not completely one way or not to an extreme, but whether we are a pursuer, whether we are a distancer, comes down to attachment, comes down to nervous system regulation, amongst a bunch of other things.
That doesn't mean you won't find love.
It doesn't mean all your relationships are doomed with the right person. you will grow.
You will love each other or find a connection that is so incredibly deep if the other person is committed to it, even if it takes a while.
So that is the message I want to leave on.
If you have made it this far and you are listening on Spotify, let me know.
Are you a distancer or are you a pursuer?
Or are you somewhere in the middle?
Which role do you find yourself relating to more?
Make sure that you are following us on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast and that you maybe have watched an episode on Netflix if you are listening in the US or Canada.
We actually recently got a new studio and it is very, very cool and a real vibe.
So if you want to check that out and see behind the scenes of where I'm recording from right now, You can go and watch that over there.
We also have a sub stack if you want to read our transcripts instead of listen to them in podcast form.
But until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself.
Thank you for tuning in.
We will talk very, very soon.
I'm Clayton Eckerd.
In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor.
But here's the thing.
Bachelor fans hated him.
If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would.
That's when his life took a disturbing turn.
A one-night stand would end in a courtroom.
The media is here.
This case has gone viral.
The dating contract.
Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you.
This is unlike anything I've ever seen before.
I'm Stephanie Young.
Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Amanda Knox and in the new podcast Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023.
But what if we didn't get the whole story?
Evidence has been made to fit.
The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed.
What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe?
Oh my God, I think she might be innocent.
Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letbe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, it's Jill Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts and how to step into your most vibrant life.
And today I'm talking with my dear friend, Krista Williams.
It can change you in the best way possible.
Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns.
The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn Power Moves. so I'm like delusionally proud of my chart.
Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.
Her husband Mike was on his laptop.
What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.
I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.
And immediately, the mask came off.
You're supposed to be safe.
That's your home.
That's your husband.
Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast.
My latest episode is with Hilary Duff, singer, actress, and multi-platinum artist.
You desire in family like this picture, and that's not reality.
My sister and I don't speak.
It's definitely a very painful part of my life, and I hope it's not forever, but it's for right now.
Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Guaranteed human.
