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Hello and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello everyone I am fresh out of the office ready to record this episode for you it's a pretty personal one it's a deep one it's a vulnerable one that's what we're talking about something a little bit different we're talking about social attraction in groups and what it means to be perceived as cool
I've been thinking about this a lot shout out to a friend of mine who I've been having some conversations with this about conversations around status around the anxiety that comes with the acknowledgement that you're perceived by others wanting to fit in wanting to seem cool and it all kind of ties
together and there's a pretty interesting narrative around these topics in psychology and in social psychology so I thought it'd be a great episode to talk about and to talk through today before we get into it though I just want to say um if you're an existing listener of the podcast um I hope you like
the new artwork I updated the cover art and have like rebranded the podcast still the same content obviously but let me know what you think kind of downgrading some stigma around common mental illnesses like depression and anxiety there still is um I think a big corner of society that sees people who experience
mental illness as weak or incapable or unable to kind of operate in society I just think that's bullshit firstly um but I also kind of want to discuss yeah why that's a not the case but b how medication kind of plays into that stigma narrative um and why it is such an important thing to talk about if you
are on antidepressants if you're considering going on antidepressants um this is just my personal experience and some kind of like um you know just being able to talk through these things and investigate them and think about them how much that's um kind of really benefited me and all the growth that I've
been to been through and and that year and thanks for supporting me throughout this this was such a new experience for me when I first started and now it's just such a part of my life it's a part of my identity and it's huge that there are people who reach out every week who say really nice things people
who leave me ratings and all of that stuff so I really appreciate it so social what it was like for me what it continues to be like for me how it impacts my life and how it has improved my life um immensely so antidepressants in our 20s I think I've said this on many podcasts where I've talked about mental
health and mental illness in the feeling like you belong somewhere that's a really important struggle and experience in our 20s especially because this is really the decade in which you kind of start to place down your foundations um you try out different identities you you shift between different social
groups and you're really trying to find your feet and how you relate to others the interactions you have with others and where you feel that you belong and what comes with that is an intense pressure around other people's perceptions of us around other people's perception of our social status of our
likeability our accept whether we could be accepted into their group and where does this pressure and influence kind of come from that's something we're really going to discuss today I'm sure we've all felt that feeling of just like not fitting in not really gelling with people feeling really lame and it's
a really terrible feeling we've all been there and we've all felt it but it's somewhat intangible and this sense of all the time people thinking that those with mental illness are somehow unable to hold jobs unable to take care of their families unable to function and I just don't think that's the case
especially when medication is something that you take and something that is part of your kind of mental health journey additionally I did some searching one in seven adult Australians are on some form of antidepressant it is one of the 10 most prescribed drugs in Australia so whatever stigma they there
may be whatever stigma that you may hold I would just ask you to know attraction wanting to be accepted into a group wanting to seem like an attractive individual not in the physical sense but in kind of the social sense and another important element that I really want to discuss is relative and comparative
status so much of how we see ourselves comes from our comparison to others and to where they stand and their kind of position in this invisible hierarchy this invisible social hierarchy that we all kind of know exists essentially we want people to like us we want to be accepted and to be perceived as
high status whatever that treatment and medication is a big part of that so that's what we're going to be kind of discussing today and yeah I hope that it's it's enjoyable you you gain something from this so perhaps the first thing we kind of need to wrap our heads around when we're talking about antidepressants
is what exactly are they there is this great big myth I think a lot of people panned to that they're kind of like a happy pill you know you take your antidepressants and suddenly like the world's more colorful everything feels better seen as part of the us or as standing out or being cool especially
in our early 20s where social status and interpersonal attraction really matter as we navigate our identity and who we are I say this all the time on the podcast but humans are social animals and being rejected from a social group that we deem as important in the past what that meant was losing access
to things that were essential for our survival like food protection mating partners so to survive our brains have kind of developed an early warning rejection alert system that triggers really sharp emotional pain and sometimes the feeling of physical pain as well that's how deeply we don't want to
be rejected and how deeply we crave except after the 70s what doctors and psychologists began to realize this isn't this isn't just you know because your life circumstances are crap or because something traumatic has happened depression is not just experienced in moments of intense grief or intense
suffering it's something that people experience all the time even when your life might be perfect even when from the outside everything seems to be going well you've got food in your belly you've got a family you've got all the things that would fulfill you there's something still quite not right and what they
identified that as being is a chemical barrier have really tuned into the importance of rejection for shaping our behavior it's like the whole field kind of missed the centrally important part of human life but that's changed over the last decade and a growing number of researchers and institutions
have really turned their eyes towards this uncomfortable fact of life that rejection it matters to us people have realized just how much our concern with social acceptance kind of spreads its fingers into almost everything we do everything and i was having this conversation with a friend of mine around
how you navigate that do you just accept that social pressure and the desire to appear like you have status or to be accepted do we just accept that that exists and live within that system and so how these work is i guess we have to go back a step our neurons communicate using chemical impulses electrical
impulses but also chemical signals as well so what what these ssri's are trying to do they're not so much trying to address the electrical impulses but the chemicals that these unlock and these chemicals are things like serotonin and dopamine so when those chemicals or people who from that rejection have gone
on to do terrible things and it's really really interesting how our conversations around that have really integrated this this idea and this acceptance of rejection as a bad thing into our discussions of these instances and these people because humans we have a fundamental need to belong just as we
have needs for food and water we also have needs for positive and lasting relationships so if we're hardwired to avoid rejection where do we seek acceptance and approval well that would be from the groups that we are a part of all of us every single person listening to this i'm sure that you can name
at least four five groups that you're a part of maybe it's a sport team it's the place that you work up again so it means that more of that chemical becomes available within the synapse essentially meaning that it changes the chemical structure of your brain to be more receptive to serotonin to have more
serotonin and dopamine available to you and therefore kind of change your life and change your kind of outlook on life so what is your brain like on antidepressants if we have this kind of chemical understanding of how they work so like i said there's this myth that they're happy pills that they work
kind of like ecstasy or some kind of like immediate they provide this immediate jolt of just like pleasure and happiness and all your suffering ceases to exist and it's just not like that it's not a wave of joy it's not a wave of ecstasy what these hormones uh what these sorry chemical kind of drugs
intend to do is to push you back into equilibrium they're not trying to like push you to the other side and make you deliriously happy they want to kind of stabilize your brain so you're at a point where you can operate um so basically the way that i describe it is if you are someone who is depressed
um like i have been for a big you know not a big part of my life but for some of my life what ssris do is they don't shift you all the way to this like other end of the scale they put you back in the middle and the result of lives as an individual or as unique and whilst we do possess specific characteristics
that really distinguish us from the crowd we are all unique the majority of us comply with some set of social and societal rules most of the time so conformity is the act you no longer have to experience those lows it kind of steadies the roller coaster if you can imagine like a roller coaster at lunar
park or like an amusement park you know the first part of the roller coaster is often like really up and down really up and down you get those like the fear the excitement the anticipation that's your brain without antidepressants it's just like chaotic and there's extreme lows and extreme highs but on antidepressants
it's kind of like that end of the roller coaster there's still a few bumps but they're not as significant and it allows you to relax more you can see you're coming to the end of the ride to those who are like -minded norms these there are these implicit specific rules intangible really that are shared
by a group of individuals and they guide our interactions with others and it kind of brings up the question we've kind of already answered it but just to reiterate why do people conform to these norms why do people conform in a group well yielding to group pressure in this way it often have an imbalance
in your brain obviously there are external factors that can make you depressed there are things that create deep suffering and deep grief but every day kind of run -of -the -mill depression not that i really like to call it that but general the general disorder or the general illness that is depression is chemical
it has a chemical origin in your brain and that's why SSRIs which govern our behavior and which norms you need to follow to be seen or deemed as acceptable so importantly although traditional ideas of ingroup acceptance often speak of conformity and obedience to the norm is the most important part of being
accepted it actually appears a lot more nuanced the deeper that you kind of dive into the literature and what is cool or what is socially acceptable it no longer seems to just be based on conformity but in some ways rebellion and violation so researchers they've tried to kind of unpack the paradoxes
that are inherent in social acceptance and being perceived as one of us and as cool and they have obviously focused in particular on norms but more so on the importance of violating norms or setting oneself apart from certain dispensable norms so one author this really interesting author did this i
thought it would be maybe interesting to talk about what my experience on this medication has been why it has helped me what it was like going on it what it was like kind of going off for a while um and what it's kind of done for my life so i've been on antidepressants for two years i continue to be
on them at this point it is kind of normal for me to just take one once a day um and i find that especially when i first started taking them it helped me a lot it really helped me at the point of my life that i was at i think if you met me as a person in real life and for those who do know me i don't
think that you would know that i've had you know and the unwritten behavioral and attitudinal codes that govern our lives they differ from situation to situation from group to group and like i said they're importantly fixed to certain groups and our memberships to them so we are aware of the different
norms that exist in different contexts so how you behave at work what's expected of you will differ wildly from how you behave when you're on like a rowdy night out with your friends but norms are the building blocks of being liked and being perceived as part of the in -group and as um what it was like
and why he thought it would help me and i remember him saying to me this is not something you take for six months it's not something you take for a yacht it's time to adjust and there is it's probably not particularly healthy to go off them cold turkey now this is really personal and i was kind of hesitant
to talk about it but um you know i think it's important and and at the end of the day what really drew me to take and to get on antidepressants was um just the sense that what i was going through i just couldn't endure it i was really struggling and i don't think that's something that you need to be
experiencing especially with all the options these days i'd been so hesitant about going on it before when it had been suggested to me i think because i myself was experiencing a lot of personal stigma around what it would mean for my character the fact that i couldn't just persevere the fact that i
couldn't just change my life and make myself happy through daily habits and through exercise so acceptance and being perceived as cool or as part of the in -group nowadays can actually mean breaking the rules violating the norm but only to a certain degree so according to one researcher the way people
um and things are perceived as cool as if they're seen as autonomous so as my GP had explained it takes a little bit of time to adjust to um your new brain i guess to adjust to the fact that your brain suddenly has um this new drug in its blood in its bloodstream passing through the blood brain barrier
creating chemical changes between your neurons and um i just felt so tired so tired and numb for the first maybe month or two that i was on them and i was like these if you're doing it for some superordinate goal um and in a way that is very unique or seems really self -motivated that's when you're more
likely to gain acceptance from your unique subgroups furthermore norm violation it not only indicates that you can be an independent thinker and that you're autonomous but that you operate in the way that favors the more specific inner group norms of your groups without needing direction or instruction so it
kind of validates that you are actually a true member of the group and in that way you begin to receive social acceptance a really interesting um kind of example of this is the idea of style and how we dress and that fatigue went away those you know sense that sense of being heavy and of being numb
went away the world became clearer and it also became more manageable before i went on them and before i went on my particular dosage everything in my life just felt acceptable what makes people like you and there is a perception these days that rejecting trends and choosing kind of a niche unique look
shopping at op shops or having um kind of a look or a style that's one of a kind i guess that's that's what's cool because it shows a rejection of popular fashion and dress that can be used to signal independence but also allegiance to a more contradictory and anti -establishment trend that exists within the certain subgroups
that we may be a part of norm violation has become cool making it such that kind of the new norm is to be anti -norm i know it's like a bit of a contradiction but an interesting thing to think about nonetheless it becomes more about in this situation independence and uniqueness over norm loyalty and that's
when autonomy itself becomes the norm and becomes how we gain social acceptance so in some sense coolness our desire to be seen it did start getting better you know as my brain adjusted to having this little helper and having this assistance um there started to be more of an equilibrium and a balance
between those periods of like pure elation and joy and happiness um and those lows weren't as deep one is crushing what weren't as debilitating and i found that i could manage my life in my life a lot more so that's the idea that's kind of what happened around starting other things that i noticed was um
i was always thirsty that was just like well -known psychologist this author this thinker and he describes self actualizers as autonomous standing apart from their culture and environment in important ways they might break or reject the rules of broader society that just don't make culture or means to
an ends in general to receive extrinsic satisfactions rather they're dependent for their own development and continued growth um and in this way they kind of set themselves apart and can become accepted for that very reason self actualization though important it's totally up to you but always seek health
care advice i think is the thing um and there are some like pretty serious dangers if you decide to stop taking your antidepressant your SSRI like cold turkey um it's like withdrawal from any other type of drug your brain is addicted to it you are taking it regularly your brain is not used to operating
without it and i won't lie i think about stopping every month there will be days when i just don't take my antidepressant um or sometimes even you know half a week some i think the most was a week and at that point after a week of not taking it oh my god did i start to notice and i was told that um
you know if you were to stop cold turkey you're probably going to experience this thing called discontinuation syndrome and i had a little bit of a taste of it it was just like tingling sensations trembling headaches confusion vertigo and it can get a lot worse you know people have extreme insomnia a return
of extreme anxiety sweating trembling vomiting and that confusion i was talking about and i just remember i hadn't taken them for a week it was not intentional maybe it was unconsciously but i don't remember being like i'm going to go off them i just hadn't taken it and i was riding home from the pool
on my bike and i just all of a sudden got this like incredible dizzy front of the head feeling and confusion and i got my head started to hurt and i just felt awful i felt extreme dissociation like i couldn't really feel my body and i was just had this pounding headache and the next day i woke up same
feeling everything just felt really and i guess it goes without saying that different groups have different expectations that's the basis of culture and that both scared me for two that really scared me for two reasons firstly it scared me because i was like oh my god this is an awful feeling i don't
want to feel like this again so i'm going to go back on these because if this is what life was before i was on them a it's much worse than i imagine and b i don't really want to go back but it also scared me because i had this sense of like have i permanently damaged my brain am i going to be on this for the rest
of my life and is my brain hooked on these things is my brain unable to operate without this assistance and is this what it's going to be like if i ever decide that this isn't what i want to do anymore and that was really really terrifying i think that was also exacerbated by the fact that withdrawing
from antidepressants is like withdrawing from any drug because it's become a part of your system and a part of your biology in some senses so you know ceasing to take it really quickly you can't really trust your emotional and mental and cognitive reactions to things especially in those first few weeks
because your brain is adapting to a whole new way of perceiving the world a whole new kind of chemical system and machination that is just really confusing and one that you probably haven't experienced for a while um so i did end up going back on them and that's happened a few more times where i've
just you know gone on a holiday forgotten to bring them had those awful symptoms come back and been like yeah i don't know what i was thinking this is not for me um and i think that is kind of an important sidebar to make note of if you're thinking about taking antidepressants don't take it lightly
it's not a six -month happy you know happy crash course like it's something that your brain um and that your body will be on and hooked on for some time and going off them is not as simple as being like okay i'm ready to step back into the real world and experience things like you know as they are um
it's a lot more complicated than that so i guess in recent years um some kind of areas of the psychological and medical and mental health community have kind of been turning away from often typify the existence of an in -group but rather subgroups they have or subcultures have kind of loose and informal
participation mainly because the boundaries of who and what embodies a subculture they're contested and they're fluid so membership is not exclusive sub -culturalists can identify as just with just one part of the subculture and simultaneously interact with people in another culture and broader social
networks and consequently i think the boundaries between mainstream culture and subcultures are often indistinguishable as the two kind of cultural domains they can share ideas and coexist in the lives of individuals they can be seen as existing within whereas in groups kind of are seen as existing
outside of and here's why we might actually count that you need to look after and sometimes you just need the safety net of knowing that your medication or your SSRIs are kind of taking care of things for you whilst you continue to live your life and it gives you time to kind of get back on your feet
and sort out what practices you want to incorporate so um funny story my friends jock and julian friends of the show they gave me this really interesting book um for my birthday nonetheless about depression thank you boys um yes very funny but also very sweet and it was called lost connections and this book
was something that i read when i was kind of considering whether i wanted to continue to stay on my antidepressants and it provides an alternative point of view if you ask or expensive vegan skincare or yoga pants um those things might not be as it might not be important to the average person you know
someone came up to me in the street and was like oh my gosh here's this fantastic brand of cruelty free sunscreen or whatever um i probably would not know what the fuck they were talking about but it could be a status symbol for that clean living culture or subculture that they operated so as subcultures
emerge distinct meanings form to kind of define that decision is going to perform a lot better because any mental health problem is not one -dimensional and i think that's the thing that's important to remember at the end of the day taking um a pill once a day yes it's really probably going to help you
but there is freedom to kind of debate existing meanings and create new ones um and additionally the way that subcultures and in groups are kind of distinguished yet again is that there aren't any kind of barriers to people who are members of subcultures being equally loyal to society and other people
in society in general so it's kind of generally accepted that there are interactions between people who aren't really members of the group and those are just as important as the interactions we have with those who are members of the group in these situations the main form of influence and power is common bonds
and attachment to other group members and a sense of a strong common identity so in this way this way it's kind of a different idea around social acceptance within these subcultures in some ways it's easier to seek social acceptance and to be seen as cool or as an in -group member within these kind of settings
but in the other way of medical technology that has allowed people like myself to kind of get back on the horse and sort out their lives and think better about the circumstances they're in and inform positive relationships so yeah but in a shorter episode a really personal episode i asked that if you
have listened to this you have an open mind about what was discussed and if you're considering adding medication into your mental health journey definitely talk about it do your research think it through it has its amazing benefits it's made me a better person it's made me a more reliable person norm
violation and going against what is typical so if we wrap this all and we link this all back together there's this idea that to be seen as cool and to be seen as part of the in -group and to be seen as socially attractive and attractive and socially acceptable you need to conform you need to be able
to identify what's cool and just follow along with it but what this recent research is saying is that it that really depends because there are actually certain groups in which your membership is based on your ability to go against what is the norm and your ability to act as an autonomous individual
and what makes someone cool or sets people apart within subcultures my own journey with my mental health and my well -being has grown with the podcast and has the podcast has definitely made me think about these choices and made me think about my health and art you'll know where that is but this concert
it was like not something i take i would like normally go to it was super grunge kind of goth and i walked in wearing the clothes that i would normally wear and i just felt so out of place i think you know if i was walking down the streets of newtown or if i was at my old uni what i was wearing the kind
of perception i don't know like the kind of image i was giving off would be seen as pretty typical elsewhere but in this situation it was really obvious that i was not a member of this particular subculture i was not a frequent participant in goth underground music that kind of music scene and i felt
incredibly uncool but if members of this group were to step into one of my cultural identities or one of the groups i belonged to i'm sure they would have felt the same and the way that that was kind of indicated to me the the reason i felt uncool was because of these status symbols because of what people
were wearing and there was a sense of convergence here but there was also a norm of independence and a norm of authenticity that we've been talking about a lot all good all 100 free what if i had three jobs still 100 free what if i once saw bigfoot that has nothing to do with taxes so still 100 free
now that's what i'm talking about now this is taxes see if you qualify in the turbotax app excludes turbotax live must start in filing app by 218 do you want to see into the future do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes
us human on tech stuff we travel from the minds of congo to the surface of mars so how do trends in this kind of globalized environment how do they emerge so the origin and the emergence of social conventions of trends whatever you want to call them um it's kind of been a bit of a problem child for cognitive
scientists and um social psychologists in the past and prominent ideas they've often assumed that institutionalized mechanisms like a centralized authority figure leadership or incentives for collective agreement around norms these are what are required for shared conventions to become prevalent obviously
we know that's not true trends emerge without someone telling us what to do with it was a university study in the netherlands i think and they put these students that were part of um like a first year psychology course they placed them in chat rooms for the entire year and people were placed randomly
in different chat rooms and over time these trends started to emerge and how people talked to each other the jokes they made um and there was also like a convergence within these little groups that were defined by these chat rooms on how people took notes on where people ate lunch um on what people
did and all of these things all of these indicators of the specific chat rooms they differed they differed um and when all these groups and one of the chat rooms were kind of combined people still kind of stuck to the groups that were created by those initial kind of conversations and what the researchers
noticed within that was a trendsetter or a leader within these smaller local groups who kind of started doing something from a place of authenticity and autonomy which we've talked about and then everyone kind of followed suit we would call them a trendsetter but why was this person more influential
than the other ones than the other people so I think we know from um just our basic knowledge of social interactions and of society in general social media as well that not everyone can kind of be a trendsetter or start a social movement towards a particular convention or norm or action so we typically
believe it's tied to charisma natural intelligence attractiveness things like that but on a deeper level it has to do with in -group prototypicality so in -group prototypicality that is the key that seems to unlock this whole kind of secret closet and strange world that was really weird gnarly a reference
but you know what I mean um of of social attraction and being perceived as cool so in -group prototypicality basically what it means is that you are the most you are kind of the median the most central and normal figure of all those around you you kind of represent the amalgamation of the attributes
the characteristics the likes the behaviors the attitudes of all those who might be with within kind of your atmosphere and within your social atmosphere and people recognize that you're the person who has the most kind of relatability to every other member of the group and what comes with that is a sense
of trust a sense of trust from other members that you'll do the right thing by them that they should follow you and with that comes charisma and attraction and the emergence of a trend set of a trend setter so in -group prototypicality being the most familiar and typical member of a group is what gives
you the power one individual the power to set a convention that is then carried on by others but navigating that is so not simple some people just fall into that role naturally and find group membership and acceptance and leadership whereas others are kind of really forced to examine group dynamics
and trends and figure out where they sit the good thing is all humans and all groups they kind of leave a track or a pattern of behavior that can be followed and emulated if you really want to be part of the in -group if you try hard enough to be cool but the other thing that we've learned is that always
converging on the norms on the conventions on the on the trends that define the groups that you think are important isn't probably going to get you to a point where you feel accepted it comes it kind of comes more naturally to those who are authentic and who act independently these are the trend setters
these are the people who aren't seeking social acceptance these are the people who gain social acceptance from violating norms not just obeying them you know we can talk about the research behind this but i think it is comes from a more anecdotal place in a more kind of yeah anecdotal perspective when you
try too hard to be seen as someone who everyone should like and to be socially accepted often it has the inverse effect no one likes you they can tell that you're being fake they can tell that you're not authentic they can tell that you don't naturally know how to follow the norms of the group trying
hard is uncool so i guess the lesson from all this conversation is the way to kind of gain social acceptance is to be independent autonomous and your authentic self that way you end up kind of drifting and finding the groups who you actually have more in common with naturally but people are more attracted
to you because they see you as somewhat of a leader and an independent thinker and as someone who is self -actualized as maslow said that is what makes you the most powerful in social interactions is not actually needing social acceptance i hope you enjoyed this episode i do realize it was a lot more
theoretical based and kind of like weird ramblings from me than our typical episodes are but i really enjoyed looking into this i think it's something i've been thinking about a lot having moved recently it's not really recently anymore having moved at the start of the year it's like how do you figure
out how to fit in in a social situation and circumstances that you don't really know very well and why is it that we're constantly seeking to be liked and socially accepted and seeking symbols or indicators of status so i guess that's where this episode kind of came from is just me unpacking how that kind
of area and element of the social world world really works and what things we should consider what kind of topics and conversations and subjects come up so if you're thinking of feeling it a similar way i hope you enjoyed this i hope as weird as it was as convoluted as it was you kind of took something
away from it and thank you for listening if you've made it this far as i always say if you have made it this far and you feel cool to do so please consider leaving the podcast a review on either apple podcast or spotify it really helps us grow and when i say us it's just me so it really yeah it makes
me really happy to see that people are enjoying this people are enjoying me being my authentic self even if it's not cool um but yeah thank you again for listening and uh tune in next time this year i've been really rethinking my relationship with alcohol and so i decided to commit to dry january to
really kickstart 2025 and just test myself heineken 00 is the perfect companion for dry january because you feel like you're still participating when you're out for dinner with friends out for drinks whilst you're still meeting your lifestyle goals i'm a big beer fan so i also love the taste of heineken
00 plus being alcohol free you can enjoy whenever refreshment calls heineken 00 is available at your local heineken retailer or for delivery at heineken .com you must be 21 plus to purchase enjoy heineken responsibly and good luck with dry january do you want to see into the future do you want to understand an invisible
force that's shaping your life do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes us human on tech stuff we travel from the minds of congo to the surface of mars from conversations with nobel prize winners to the depths of tiktok to ask burning questions about technology from high
