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People, my people, what's up?
This is Questlove. Man, I cannot believe we're already wrapping up another season of Questlove Supreme.
Man, we've got some amazing guests lined up to close out the season.
But, you know, I don't want any of you guys to miss all the incredible conversations we've had so far.
I mean, we talked to A.
Marie, Johnny Marr, E.
Johnny Schechter, Billy Porter and so many more.
Look, if you haven't heard these episodes yet, hey, now's your chance.
Got to check them out.
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Hello and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the very unprofessional podcast whereby I, your unqualified guide, talk through some of the big changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Welcome back to the podcast.
I hope your week has been well, that something amazing has happened or you got some, you know, cool news.
I'm recording this with a little cat on my lap right now and it's very, very satisfying.
But this week, we're going to be delving into the chaos, the absolute fucking nightmare of the nine to five job.
This is a topic that my friends and I talk about all the time.
And the general conclusion we most often reach is that the nine to five job should be abolished, left for dead.
It's not a happy way of life for many, I think, and myself included.
So today we're going to talk about how a nine to five is not conducive to a healthy, rounded and happy way of living, especially when we're young.
And we're going to have a special guest come on later.
But first, let's just talk about some of the psychological concepts behind why a nine to five work week is actually just really terrible.
So our work can be a big part of our identity and offers some pretty key insights into what's important to us.
So it is a really rich area of psychological study.
And for many people in their 20s, the transition to full time work is very much like the transition to adulthood.
We have those fun years in university and high school.
We have a lot of freedom to work the jobs and the hours we want.
And for many, that means that we have our days and, you know, well, our lives just free to do what we wish with.
But that can really come crashing down when we enter the workforce and suddenly we have to adapt our lifestyle to the typical nine to five work week.
So I've had this experience recently.
I work the typical nine to five every day, every week.
And after the first few weeks, the novelty kind of wears off and it really started to wear me down and it can be pretty, you know, fucking depressing.
The thing that really got me was that monotonous procedure of going to the same place every day, the same commute, doing the same silly little tasks surrounded by the same people.
And so much of your day becomes devoted to this bigger entity and what's in the interest of this company or organization, which can be, you know, insanely unfulfilling in many instances.
And I especially began to notice this when winter struck.
You wake up at nine at, you know, seven thirty, the sun's still down.
Commute to work, maybe blasting some music so you don't feel like, you know, an absolute robot.
And you finish up after five when the sun is set.
And where has where's your day gone?
Where is this natural instinct to be active in the sun and outdoors going with the hours you have left?
How do you create fulfillment and an identity in so many short hours in such a short period of time when the sun is down and you're exhausted?
And I've just come to the conclusion it's almost impossible to remain human in the system and to maintain a concept of yourself beyond your function as a worker or as an employee.
You know, you just end up having so little time to be yourself and to pursue things that truly do bring you joy.
Now, I know this is not the case for anyone.
Some people find work and jobs that inspire them in light of fire under their soul and push them towards really, really great things.
And some people find it immensely enjoyable and fulfilling to be devoted to people and projects that are bigger than themselves in a sense of purposefulness and productivity.
There's also that element of money, you know, in a world where we have to pay to exist.
No wonder we've become so conditioned to a system that asks us to sacrifice, you know, the majority of our daily hours to work in an office of something we don't particularly love, just to afford, you know, the small pleasures in life like rent.
Like I mentioned, this dilemma between being a free spirit and embracing our youth or sacrificing these young years for full time employment is one I'm sure many of my listeners have experience, especially if you are going through that transition right now.
It might even be keeping you up at night, I don't I don't know.
But even if you don't have this experience, I think we can all recognise this intense societal pressure to enter into this system and the corporate world and work our lives and days away until we're 65, retired, no longer have the bones or the stamina for the life that we actually wanted for ourselves.
And when I started investigating this and the psychology behind the nine to five job in our 20s, it started feeling even more startling and a pretty shitty deal that we've entered voluntarily into.
And I have had this feeling recently, like at what point did I actually choose this life myself and come to the conclusion it would bring me happiness?
Like how much of that pressure was external or intangible?
Me feeling this idealised equation for a perfect life whereby, you know, you have a good job.
That's the foundation and everything else kind of falls around it.
But enough of my rant.
Let's just get into the psychology behind full time work.
We're going to talk about why a nine to five job is not ideal for making a living, burnout, exhaustion and the struggle for fulfillment in a modern day capitalist society.
So before we understand the psychological effects of the five day work week, we have to understand its history.
So the truth is this type of work schedule hasn't always been the standard in Australia or many places in the world.
So basically in the nineteen hundreds factory workers, they were known for being forced to work hundred hour weeks or more.
But fortunately, after years of activist work and many people fighting the powers that be change began and now the nine to five work week has kind of become a standard.
And we've certainly been really lucky to have people from the past who fought for these labour rights and for more free time.
However, I think many of us still believe we're not really getting the best deal.
So there was a study recently, it was a worldwide study that had over 3000 individuals all working those classic eight hour, sometimes more work days and findings showed that half of these individuals believe they can do their jobs using only five hour days.
This means they think they'd be more productive if they worked fewer hours instead of more or a four day work week instead of five, which really kind of poses the argument that working eight hour days and 40 hour weeks aren't necessarily even effective.
And further studies have also shown that those who work a nine to five job versus those who have flexible work hours, more days off and greater emphasis on ledger, they're more likely to express symptoms of depression, anxiety.
They're more likely to laugh less, express less satisfaction with how they use their remaining time and have fewer fulfilling relationships.
According to this recent study that I read about, I think it's only around 30 percent of the US workforce is engaged in their work.
So in other words, they're passionate about their work and they feel strongly committed to their companies.
But that leaves, you know, 70 percent of workers who are either not engaged or actively disengaged.
So that's 70 percent of the population who have this work lifestyle who appear, quite frankly, quite miserable and not really engaged in what they're doing.
And on average, we spent at least 35 percent of our waking hours at work.
And if we're not happy in our job, then it tends to have pretty far reaching impacts on other aspects of our lives.
And it affects things like our relationships, our sleep, physical health, our ability to relax.
So what is it about this system that creates such unhappiness from a psychological perspective?
I think it's important just to break it down from an evolutionary perspective to begin.
So humans, they didn't evolve to work a nine to five job.
We evolved as hunter gatherers and our innate instincts, our minds, our bodies, they've evolved to suit this context, not that of an office.
Our central nervous system and many of the structures and features of our bodies, including our circadian rhythm, fight or flight system, sensory systems and cognitive features such as our attention.
They've all adapted as a result of that evolutionary environment.
So, for example, one of the primary jobs we used to have in a hunter gatherer society was obviously hunting.
And this involved brief spurts of intense activity followed by large amounts of leisure time.
Similarly, for those who rely primarily on gathering food, this would have required kind of more time invested, but involved large amounts of physical activity, rest time in between.
And it was the lifestyle that brought about specific and instantaneous rewards such as finding something edible.
So both elements of this lifestyle have three important aspects that are no longer kind of present in the modern day work environment.
So firstly, they have this specific task based reward.
You've got time outdoors and you're active and you've got a greater amount of time for leisure as well.
So our bodies and minds, they were formed for these activities.
They have evolved for environmental stimulation that is varied and involves active and external input from our surroundings.
Our genes, they're still expecting that we chase prey or collect roots and seeds, but human innovation, firstly, with the creation of agriculture and manufacturing and industry, it's really moved us away from our natural tendencies and rhythms.
And this is why the discomfort and boredom of a nine to five job can be so profound and unsettling for so many of us because we've forced ourselves into a lifestyle that is fundamentally opposed to what our bodies and minds have evolved to do.
What's worse, I think, instead of being outside, people now work in these large buildings.
They're awfully tightly packed with people, technology, not much ventilation.
And instead of being this tribal creature chasing after your next meal or working alone in small groups, humans have become cells and pretty unindividualized cells in a much larger organism.
And it's an organism which has little use for their creativity and their individuality.
Basically, our genes haven't had much time to evolve to this lifestyle.
So working nine to five on small tasks and projects that really have much larger meaning or you feel anyone can replace you, it doesn't really fit the logic that's hardwired into our DNA.
Like I kind of mentioned, we've traded brief spurts of intense focus and activity for long days of continuous, monotonous work.
We've traded skilled, knowledgeable work for this cog -like activity and we exist in concrete boxes with little time outside or in nature or as individuals as well.
And it's really interesting because a lot of organizational psychology has shown that employers who are willing to adopt an evolutionary psychology approach to organizing their workplaces, they may drastically improve their workers overall, physical and psychological health, as well as their general productivity.
So what impact does the nine to five have on our mental state and our psychological wellbeing?
So not just being asked to fit into a nine to five lifestyle, but also does the things we know, we're not doing the things that we aren't passionate about and we don't really do things that fulfill us cognitively or creatively.
And there are some pretty long term consequences of that.
Firstly, we've got fatigue, burnout, depression, existential dread, just to name, just some fun for you.
And long hours, they do cause fatigue, both physical and mental.
And that fatigue affects not just the last few hours of a workday, but all hours of the next day.
So an employee who drags back to work after only a few hours of rest at home isn't going to be very productive in the morning.
Then the next long day ties them out even more and this kind of punishing cycle begins.
They're not going to be able to fulfill their other obligations in life or properly utilize their leisure time if they're exhausted, mentally under or overstimulated and dealing with the pressures of the workplace and just life in general.
And this is particularly pronounced if it's a big life change kind of shifting into that everyday habit, which it is for those in their 20s who are just entering full time work and it's probably why we see so much burnout and dissatisfaction in that age group.
So burnout, it can happen pretty fast and is projected into all areas of life.
It doesn't really help anyone maintaining a nine to five schedule.
It doesn't help the individual or the employee who has a group of tired, exhausted, unfulfilled young professionals aspiring for better things and greater pleasures of life.
And it's not just the nine to five long working hours and blurred boundaries between work, life and private life.
They're pretty common amongst young professionals.
And for employees, there may be, you know, temporarily acceptable reasons for working longer days.
You expect positive career outcomes in terms of a higher salary or intrinsic rewards.
But long term, this isn't emotionally or psychologically sustainable.
Burnout, it can present as neglected personal care needs, dim detention, withdrawal, depersonalisation, which I talked about in my episode with Kate, emptiness, emotional instability and depression.
And in the long term, how do you recover from repeated cases of burnout or do you just adapt and begin to detach and close off doors to other areas of your life that might be contributing to your schedule?
Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is by trying to recover from the exhaustion of monotonous office life, you might actually begin sacrificing other elements such as sleep and passion projects and socialising to adapt because so much of your day is being taken up by your work.
And you're only we really only leads to becoming a bit of a shell of yourself.
I found this quote that I think really captures this pattern of thought.
So work time actually is lifetime, too.
And I don't want to spend my lifetime only at work.
And when I read that, it kind of sent me a little bit, made me a bit scared because it really does hit the nail on the head in terms of what we're giving up to work for a larger entity that might not even care about us, might not even know who we are.
And a meta analysis of I think there's like 200 over 200 records of all these academic papers that had over 800000 participants.
So think about that close to a million from 13 countries.
It demonstrated that longer working hours to have a positive relationship with occupational health problems and higher rates of depression and anxiety.
And this is particularly the case for employees who report feeling unfulfilled by their projects and their role and your ability to enjoy your life beyond your workplace becomes intrinsically linked to your position as this kind of capitalist cog.
And it strips you of your health and it strips you of your individuality.
So this is the question.
If the nine to five causes depression, dread, fatigue, burnout, why do young people feel psychologically pressured to submit to it?
And we have a guest to explain this a little bit and I'll welcome her in just a second.
So welcome, Erin. Hello.
Hi, how are we all going this time?
Day, night, yeah, lunchtime, evening, evening, midnight.
Spicy. Podcast after hours.
Podcast after hours.
No, that's not the theme of the show.
We didn't agree on that.
So Erin is a good friend of mine.
It's our one year friend anniversary around this time around this.
And definitely, yeah, I think so.
And, you know, an avid listener of the podcast and also a bit of a nine to five expert.
I don't know, I feel like you were the first one of our friends to really jump into that kind of way of living.
I think I was. Yeah, yeah, I think that there are a couple of other people, but I started my nine to five job in August last year.
So that's almost a year.
And she was still doing uni at the time.
I was still doing uni at the time, which is a terrible idea.
If anybody ever says to you do a university degree and work nine to five Monday to Friday at the same time, don't don't listen.
They are not your friend.
They are not your friend.
Run in the opposite direction as fast as you can.
How many courses were you doing?
So I meaning a cookie by the way.
I was doing well, this is what I told myself.
It was fine. I was doing two courses at the time and then I had to pick up another two to graduate in time to qualify for my other job, which will remain nameless.
It's secret, secret.
No, sorry, guys. The Spud, the cat just stood up to leave us.
This is a very casual episode.
I was like, I'm bringing on an expert, but really, it's a let's get friendly in disguise.
It's a let's get friendly.
But we're talking about work.
And Erin providing commentary on the cat she's looking after.
So you started in August last year.
Yes. Now it's almost August.
It's almost been a year.
I hate to remind you.
I know your concept of time is.
My concept of time is short, probably due to being in an office.
A work slave. A work slave for a year.
There's a lot of, sorry, the jingling, again, the cat, please cut the, please cut the jingles out.
Spud, nobody wants it.
Um, so yeah. Um, I've sat in a room in an office building, breathing in other people's air for a year.
How terrifying is that?
But, um, it's, it's one of those things that I, I don't know, I think we've talked about this a lot, but being able to like afford the lifestyle that you want at one stage at I would go into the grocery store and I would really stress about, um, what I was spending money on and now I can go out for drinks
with friends. I can treat friends.
I can buy, um, Uber's, Uber's.
Um, yeah, I do, I, I guess I try to still be do it all within reason because I'm not earning the largest amount of money, but it is nice.
And there like is a certain amount of privilege associated with that, that I certainly, um, I don't want to take for granted, but also as I've said, I feel like it's good because you're kind of being like, Oh yeah, let's talk about the positives.
Cause obviously it's not modern day slavery.
Like we really make it, like, I know a lot of the early part of this show was me being like, fuck the nine to five, my life's so hard.
Like I get paid, you know, in the top 2 % to do nothing.
I don't do nothing.
I think that I actually do quite a lot of work, but like, you know, Aaron's made a very good point.
This is something you signed a contract voluntarily.
Like, you know, you're getting into, you get to afford things you like.
And it's, it's suddenly, uh, the position I'm in at least is a lot better than a casual job that I used to work in that doesn't really care about your health and wellbeing.
Um, so the workplace that I'm in at the moment tries to, you know, make sure that their workers are looked after properly.
And we have people advocating for our rights and you know, we've got, like, I'm a member of the union, which I strongly encourage you all to be all of the listeners.
If you're not signed up to your union, definitely do that because they're the ones advocating for positive change in your workplace.
Yeah. I mean, it's a very socialist episode, I think.
And I, I don't know.
I also think we were talking, cause we had dinner before this and we were talking like, I know you can't really get into it because you don't want to get sued to whoever's someone from your work listening to this.
I was about to say someone's name, but you know, whose name I was about to say.
But yeah. Um, but I also think that sometimes they don't always have your best interest at heart.
Like you've had a pretty shitty experience whereby they were pretty standoffish about letting you be flexible and it really kind of wrote, raised those questions of like, why am I being forced into a nine, like a nine to five, five day work week?
When A, I'm not even being productive.
B, it's really bad for my health and C, you guys don't even need me here.
Yeah. As so I'm, I come from this standpoint as somebody with a mental illness.
And so I worked five days in my job a year ago.
Oh, spud creating noise.
That's fine. Um, so as somebody with a mental illness, I worked five days.
Uh, in my job a year ago when I was doing uni, and then I dropped down to four days to do uni and my life became eminently so much easier.
And currently in my current job, um, I'm trying to do that.
I'm nearly there. It took a lot of negotiating, um, and a lot of advocating for myself.
But I think you can probably attest to this.
I already just feel so much better because I think there's a, there's a huge concept of everybody always asks you your whole life, where are you going to work?
Like, what are you going to do?
What are you going to be when you grow up?
I hate that question.
It's so, I can't say that because they listened to this, but like, especially older people will often ask that.
And it's like, why do I need to answer you?
I'm 21 years old, 22 years old.
Like I don't know. Also, it just puts this whole emphasis on like, what are you going to do for work?
Like work is your whole life.
And I remember I told someone like, I'm going to take a year off.
And they were like, Oh, Oh, what are you going to do?
And I was like, I'm going to do creative things.
I like, that'll be really good for your resume.
And then what are you going to do afterwards?
And I was like, well, I don't know.
Like, just let me be, just let me exist.
Yeah, just let me exist.
So much, so much worth is put on to your productivity and what your career is going to be.
Like, I've been listening to a lot of other podcasts.
Of course, this podcast, loyal listener.
Yeah. What do you mean you're listening to?
But I've listened to a lot of podcasts that are talking about finances and careers.
I like, I, there's a beautiful, beautiful Facebook, um.
Post out here, uh, out there in the world, rather.
And it's basically says, um, what's your dream job?
Question mark. I simply do not dream of labor.
And that's exactly, that's exactly how I feel.
Like I really until I started having three days on the weekend for myself and four days during the week for work, I had no balance.
Like, and if you're not, I'm sure that there's people with really, um, amazing jobs out there that fulfill them.
And that's what they want to do.
But I often sit at my desk and just think, Oh my goodness, what I would give to be outside and I stay out the window and I go, why am I here?
And I, and I think it's like, there's so many skills that I've learned at work.
Um, and all of that.
And I think the more that you have a work -life balance, the more going to work is something that isn't terrible.
Um, and so for me, like having flexible work arrangements and working part -time has really helped.
Do you, but quick question.
Do you think you can have a flexible work -life balance of five days of your life?
Oh, is absolutely not.
I don't know. Bring on the four -day work week.
Honestly, whoever came up with this concept of having to work five days a week, two days on the weekend is simply not enough to do like I describe it as I have my day that brings me joy.
I have my day of life admin and then I have my day to do whatever I want.
Yeah. So like all of the stuff that like the relaxation, the laundry, I guess that's the life admin, but you know what I mean?
Like the stuff that's like you have to do like maintenance kind of stuff.
Look after your plants.
Look after my plants.
Oh, hours of my life go on to my plants.
But it's fulfilling.
It is, that is something I care about.
And I also remember speaking of like you being at your desk, being like, I just want to go outside.
I remember being terrified when you told me when you're working at your old job in that building, you would say to me like, Oh, it was bucketing down rain today, but I've made a promise to myself to always eat my lunch outside.
So I went and sat outside.
Yeah. And I was just sitting in the rain.
Yeah. And I was like, Oh my God, sounds fucking terrible.
Like, you know. Yeah.
And I mean, the other thing I do because, uh, I really don't enjoy sitting inside all day is I eat lunch outside.
I try to do that as often as I can.
And I cycle to and from work.
And I was saying recently to my housemate, shout out to Nara if you're listening.
Hi. That my favorite part of work now is not work because work would never be my favorite part of my day, but actually cycling to and from work and doing exercise, because that's how I've built in looking after myself when eight hours of the day, which in winter is all of your daylight hours gone.
Literally nothing. We live in Canberra and it's like sunsets at five.
So if you're working nine to five, you don't get daylight hours.
And so that's my motivation to exercise as I cycle to and from work.
Um, because I can luckily, which is obviously not something that everybody can do, but that really, really helps me and helps maintain my mental health.
And I think the really interesting thing actually, there's probably a direct correlation between nine to five and me actually realizing I have to look after my mental health.
Like I don't, I don't know whether you remember that, um, when I started my job, I like suddenly, like my nine to five job, I suddenly got very into like running because I was like, I have to know walks with a big thing.
What are you doing?
Cause we used to live around like literally like a hundred meters from each other and that what are you doing?
Can I come over and you'd be like, I want to walk.
Yeah. Just cause I needed to breathe fresh air and be outside.
Um, because it's a big thing.
And I had this realization today when I was leaving work and just quickly disclaimer with, I don't know about you.
I love my job. Like I love the people I work with.
Very, very different.
I'm so glad that you feel that way.
I, I love people at my work, but I don't think I share the same sentiment.
I go to work to get paid and hopefully one day.
Well, me too. Like I wouldn't, like it's not, I wouldn't go if I was a volunteer.
There are people who would go to work if they, if they weren't being paid because that is, they've been brainwashed.
That's why. Simple explanation.
It was like people, no, don't get it.
Well, also like people who volunteer like in old age, I'm like, I get it, but I'm also like, I don't know.
Like you've lived your whole life and now you're retired.
You're going to go work for free because you can't do anything other than work.
I actually really like volunteering though.
But if it's like, I don't know, maybe I'm just dissing what I haven't tried yet.
Yeah. I think it depends what volunteering you're doing.
I find a lot of satisfaction in volunteering because I know that what I'm doing actually contributes.
But is it like you're outside because you often do like tree planting, volunteering, always.
I did volunteering for a while where I worked in like a vinies, like an equivalent of vinies overseas.
And I loved that. That was amazing.
That was a lot because of like human connection as well.
And being able to talk to people.
Okay. You can actually think that.
Yeah. And I've, I volunteered for a group called See Change who are a non -profit in Canberra.
And I do that because I like it.
And I think I like the, the feeling of contributing to being part of a community.
That, that's like a big value for me.
So... Community is another big thing we should talk about.
Yeah, definitely. Um, but yeah, I don't know.
And I think that's probably what I do enjoy about work is having like a network of people.
Yeah. That's, that's what I was saying about my work.
Like I really love the people I work with.
Like the things I do feel somewhat meaningful.
I have responsibility.
And I think that is really important, by the way, not to interrupt you.
But if you are working in an nine to five job and you have the ability to change where you are and you are not feeling fulfilled where you are, just move, find somewhere that does fit.
If you have that flexibility.
Well, so what Erin's talking about, like I am a notorious job quitter.
Like I don't like where I'm working.
Quit, quit, quit. Like as you should.
Life is too short. I know.
That's what I used to say.
The option to life is way too short to sit in a job.
Yeah. And especially I think while you're young and you don't have a mortgage, you don't have kids, you don't have looming financial responsibilities.
Why not? Yeah. And this is the thing about like being in your 20s, like a lot of us do have that freedom and it's like, why do we submit to something that doesn't work for us?
And I had that, like my friends used to always joke with me, like you're a notorious, like, oh, how many jobs are you working out?
Like where are you working now, Gemma?
Because I would constantly change, but I had this really very strong feeling, like right now, world is my oyster.
So much freedom. Why would I stay in a workplace that I don't feel valued in?
Working hours I don't feel valued in.
You know, it just isn't worth it.
And it's not worth it when you're young and you have so much health and stamina and opportunity and friendships.
Yeah. To just sacrifice that.
And this is like, obviously there are people and positions.
To not who can't do that.
And in which case, I think I had an amazing conversation with my psychologist the other day about the concept that if you do have to be where you are and like that's something that's important to you because you need to grow your income or for whatever reason, you know, you...
Maybe you do have financial responsibilities.
Yeah. And in some ways, as well, there are people who work to support what they love in other aspects of their life.
So they'll work to be able to do other things that they really like.
And I think that's, you know, that's obviously a value as well.
If you do have that kind of balance.
But my psychologist, I'm not going to name her, but shout out.
Love her. Shout out to you.
Don't want to listen to this.
I will. I will tell it.
I think she'd like it.
Get it recommended to our patients.
So we can get some more listeners.
Many people in Canberra are public servants.
I would say the majority of our friends.
I would say almost all of our friends work in jobs that either serve the public service or are the public service.
So even if they're not working in a department or a branch or a group, that's what my job is, primarily serving the public service.
So you really get...
It gets ingrained in you.
And there's a lot of...
Actually, there are benefits.
There's a lot of flexibility in the public service, and I'm able to go down to four days.
So we get the moment because of the flexibility with that.
But anyway, so she was talking about this concept of happiness, if you are not somebody who loves to work and work is your life, happiness is not just going to strike you at work like a lightning bolt from above, and you're not just going to sit there and become super deliriously happy.
It's not going to happen.
And for all my life, I think, because of the conversations that everybody has around careers and work and what you're going to be and finding fulfillment through what you do, I always thought that if I found a job that fit totally right, I would just experience insurmountable happiness.
Like a dream job. Like a dream...
Oh my goodness. The concept of a dream job.
Concept... Abolish it.
Abolish it. Concept of a dream job, hate it.
Because she literally said, even if you work in something that you're completely fulfilled in, it is scientifically impossible to be happy eight hours of that day.
Yeah, true. You can't.
Yeah, or to be stimulated.
Or to be stimulated.
Or not bored. Or not bored.
Constantly. And even if you are stimulated, you're probably stressed.
Yeah. You can't keep your attention for eight hours of a day.
It's literally scientifically impossible unless you're on drugs.
Even then, you still need to go to the bathroom.
Maybe not. I don't know what you're taking, but...
And for me, that just...
I found it such a concept.
And she said you've got to create moments of happiness in your day at work.
So for me, I like cycle to and from work.
That's a huge bit of my happiness.
I have lunch with my friend.
Shout out, Lindsay.
Love you. Friend of the show.
Friend of the show.
I have lunch with her almost every day.
I love it. Half an hour to just chat shit about the world.
Not the public service though.
We never chat shit about the public service.
Totally numb. We would never talk about work on our lunch break.
No. Abolish work. Yeah.
Actually, you shouldn't talk about working on your lunch.
You shouldn't. We had...
Sorry, just to interject.
We had this moment, no, it's like we were having dinner just like hanging out.
And we got into like work chat.
And I like came and we haven't seen each other for like a week.
Gusting. I was sitting on the couch and I got into work chat.
And I really had a moment where I was like, I always promised myself, did you ever do this when you were a kid?
You're like, I'm not going to work in nine to five.
Like people who talk about work on their free days, they're so lame.
And then there I was.
I have never ever pictured myself sitting in front of a computer in an office and I've been doing that for a year of my life.
And I have many moments during the day where I sit there at my computer and I go, what the heck is going on here?
What am I doing? Crazy.
What am I doing? But you know, it's skills gaining.
I get to. It's the way of the world.
It's the way of the, it is the way of the world.
It's one of those things.
And I don't think anybody preps you for it.
No. Well, I actually think maybe they do like school kind of preps you for it.
Think about like going to school when you're, but that's the thing.
I had this thought and not in a good way that it preps you for it, but like a whole life where conditioned to give up the hours of our day to something that we might not always see a purpose in.
Like you go to school from 8 .30 to 3 .30 and then, you know, you go to work from nine to five.
Like I used to fall asleep in school classes.
Yeah. I'm sure you would have, you would have been so bored.
How can you, how can you sit down that long?
Anyway. So in terms of creating happiness in your workday, so you don't feel like that, like me sitting at my desk going, what the fuck am I doing?
Having an existential crisis.
Having an existential crisis every single moment.
You know, she was like, go get coffee.
If that's something that you like, do something in the build connection.
If that's something you like, you know, and I really, I really appreciate that concept and like going for a little walk in the afternoon.
Do a walk. Do it. Go for a little walk.
Who's stopping you?
You know? And let's talk about that.
So that's actually really good skills, like really good habits to form because I feel like I don't have that right now.
Like, I often skip my lunch break.
I often don't go outside.
Absolutely not. I drive to work and then today I saw the sunset and I like almost cried because I was like, wow, real existence.
But let's talk about making the most of your off time because you do a really good job at that.
Do I? Yeah, you do it.
Thank you. No, you're so good at it.
You always like you just prioritize your friends.
You do things that make you happy.
Like she works nine to five and she still has time to volunteer.
Like I've been volunteered for about six years.
Well, it's what you value, right?
I don't value work.
So I think I do put a lot of time and energy into doing things like on almost every day that I work, because I work four days at the moment, on two of those four days.
So 50 % I have a set activity that I know I will be doing every week.
And then the other 50 % of that time I usually fill with spending time with friends.
So I go to poll on Tuesday night, which I love.
So that's like my first day back at work.
Absolutely heinous.
Gross. But I get to go to poll in the evening.
And that's something I really like.
I tried to get her into spin classes, but we tried once.
We tried spin on Wednesday.
I cycle. So why would I spend when I cycle?
But I know still loved it.
Still loved it. Of course.
Yeah. And then on Thursday, I played netball and it's like social netball, which is amazing.
And I never pictured myself playing netball either.
But it's really good because I get to spend time with a whole bunch of people that I really like.
And they're super lovely.
And then on Friday, I usually do something really fun with my friends.
Yeah. Normally we get drunk.
Or I go out for drinks.
They're actually...
That's an interesting topic.
People drinking to forget the fact that they have to work five days a week.
Because I think that is a big thing to talk about.
That's a big trend, especially in Canberra, where a lot of people have disposable incomes and no children.
And a job that means that they have both days on the weekend off.
Yeah. So it's also a lot of young people.
I feel like most of the people who are listening, but it's a lot of people who are under the age of 30, moved to the APS, and have just come into heaps of money off and moved out of home.
And it is a huge thing.
Also, the big thing is, if you're young, this is meant to be your time to really figure yourself out.
If you're working all the time, when you do have time off, there's this huge compulsion to be like, I need to have fun.
I need to be fun. I need to do things, make memories.
And often that's like, well, I need to be drunk.
Or like, what's Canberra?
Well, that's Canberra.
Socialise, right? In Canberra, there's not much to do.
If you're okay, we're not really outdoorsy people.
We have a lot of friends who like, you ride your bike, but we have friends who will go to the snow.
Ultra marathon runners.
Ultra run, ultra marathon.
To Kate. Yeah. Tineya, Lucy, they always go skiing.
They always cycle, Meg.
Yeah. I think there's a lot of people who do the weekend activities that require traveling, and then your whole weekend is spent camping.
I wish I could be that person.
I think we should work on it, maybe.
Hey, we're going to Braidwood this weekend.
We are. We're going to Braidwood this weekend.
That's making the most of your weekend.
But this is the thing, we need to...
Well, actually, quickly.
Yeah, please. Sorry, we often get off tracking our conversations, in case you haven't noticed.
That's the thing, right?
And if you have three days on your weekend, you can have a day going on a little trip, and your other days, you don't only then have one day to get your whole life together and then go back to work on Monday.
You have two days to get your life back together and go back to work on Monday.
Or you could take a night time trip.
You could go for a night.
I mean, you could do that, I guess, if you've only got two days a week.
Yeah. Two days a week off.
Just basically what we're saying is so much more opportunity just to do more things.
And like Erin was saying, and we kind of went off this point a little bit, but I do really want to talk about it because I think you raise a really good point.
When everyone's young, everyone's been forced into these lives that they don't necessarily love.
You've kind of cut short your young years.
Oh my goodness. I've become like a 50 -year -old.
I'm sitting here on my couch with my cat.
Am I drinking tea? Drinking tea?
Am I 50? What happened to my 20s?
But this is the thing, because you always have that like, what happened to my 20s?
What happened to my young years?
Where were they? What did I do?
And blinked. Yeah, you blinked.
It was gone, and now I sit in an office.
Yeah. I know. Now you sit in an office.
And I think that is a thing that really like, because this is the time to be young, and like we're talking about psychology here, our brains don't really want to be pushed in.
We're still developing.
So our brains are seeking new stimulation, new memories, new experiences.
So you often say like there's nothing to do on the weekend.
A lot of people have disposable income.
Go out and get drunk.
Go out and drink and forget that, you know.
And then you have to go to work in a day, for two days.
And then you know, it's awful, because then you get really hung over and then your whole Sunday school and anyhow.
So now you only have a one day weekend.
Yeah, it sucks. You know, there is actually, there is actually a formula to making your days good.
What is it? I've told you about this before, right?
No, you have never told me about this.
Really? Okay, so again, my beautiful psychologist, shout out.
She said that when I started having my Mondays off, she said, okay, that's great.
Don't spend all day on the couch resting.
Because whilst rest is great, you need to do something that makes you feel fulfilled.
And so she said that you need to do something on that day that brings you joy.
Yeah. So something that you really like.
So that could be like spending time with friends or...
Cooking something nice.
I often like do a little bit of planting, like a new little plant, plant some seedlings.
Painting, reading. Something that's practical.
So prepping dinner for next week, laundry.
I often try to clean every Monday, so the house is nice and clean for the week ahead.
You need to do something that's cognitive.
So it like itches the scratch in your brain.
So an easy one is watching a documentary, but...
Scrabble. Scrabble.
Crosswords. Crosswords.
Scrabble. Yes. I haven't thought of that one.
Words. But or like researching a topic that you're really into.
Or like a new qualification that you want.
Podcast about something scientific.
Or if that's kind of my realm of interest, is like science and the climate and stuff like that.
Or like doing a bit of reading.
You read the... I read Heaps.
You read so much. But you read really intellectual stuff.
I don't think so. I think I just read like really weird novels that are like kind of whack.
You were talking about reading that article.
Oh yeah. So my friend got like a New Yorker subscription and like when he's finished with it he like gives them to me and I read this really insanely good article about the rise of ovarian cancer and like rural Alabama and like the intersection between that and like Medicaid and how like...
This is a real detour, but it's a really good article.
So that's something that's cognitive, right?
Yeah and it was... Actually it was really fulfilling because I read it right before bed and I felt like I'd done something that challenged my brain rather than just pressing your button on an excel spreadsheet.
And then you've got to do something that's physical.
So exercise. So go for a walk.
I love going for a walk uphill where I live at the moment and if you time it right you can see a little sunset.
Oh she's gorgeous. That's like a combination of joy.
A combination of joy.
All the others. All the others.
I forgot about joy.
So something that brings you joy.
Something that is practical.
Yeah. Something that's cognitive and something that's physical.
There you go. That's the equation.
That's the equation.
So if you do all of those things in your day, then...
You'll feel better.
You'll feel better.
But I don't want to say you'll be happy because happiness is a construct, but...
It is. That really helps me.
And that makes me feel like I've...
Because productivity sometimes I think can...
There's a very narrow field of what productivity actually is.
And I think sometimes there's this big push to be productive.
What does productivity look like?
And the rise of the that girl trend on Instagram.
Which we could talk about for hours so we won't go into it.
When we'll do it on our other episodes that we're going to do.
But that's also tied to professional success and having everything put together.
And a big part of that is having the job or working towards the job.
And I think what we're really talking about here is if we took the job out of the equation or the nine to five job, would everything really fall apart?
Or would everyone get a little bit happier?
Universal basic income.
Just look at the studies done with universal basic income.
And how those that want to work work.
People who find joy in working work.
And people who don't get to pursue what they actually love.
And I feel like everyone falls into place of doing things that they would enjoy.
And they would actually they'd be good at, they'd be specialized at.
You would have more productivity and efficiency I think.
Because you wouldn't have a bunch of people who feel compelled to work but not motivated to work.
Which is a huge thing I'm sure you've seen.
So many people who are like, oh I've got to go to work.
And when they get to work do you really think they're going to be there like, yeah I'm at work.
Let me put in everything I've got.
Let me really commit to this.
No they're not going to flip and do that.
Especially when you're in your 20s or in your 30s or when you're young.
And you have so much other shit that you want to do.
And I just think like, yeah I just don't think that it necessarily works.
And I think with what you were saying about that equation.
You've got these four things you need to prioritize.
Do you find it easier to do it on days when you're not working or days when you are?
Oh I don't think about it on days I work because I simply do not have time.
There we go. Like because by the time I have woken up.
Yeah. Got myself to work.
Being at work. Come home.
I've got what three or four hours left in the day.
And most of that is spent eating dinner or having to cook dinner.
So you're home by five.
You want to be in bed by 10?
Yeah. Yeah you want to be in bed by 10.
So you don't feel like absolute crap the next morning.
You've got to shower.
You've got to tidy up.
Do whatever you need to do in your house.
So take care of yourself.
Take care of yourself.
Eat. So what I'm at the end of the day often as somebody who is a little bit introverted.
I often just sit and watch television.
Because I'm like I do not have the mental capacity to do anything else that is slightly challenging.
Or you know you go and do something that is good like you go to netball.
There's your physical thing and there's your joy thing.
Not really practical but yeah like physical and joyful.
There's two things that are really nice.
Somewhat cognitive.
But it's also like but then you have less time to take care of yourself.
Completely. So it's this whole thing of it's like when eight hours of your day are gone.
And the first three hours two hours I've spent just fucking getting ready and going to work.
Well I lie in bed for an hour because I literally don't want to go to work.
Terrible. I always get my alarm ten past seven but I get up at 7 40.
Because I like to wake up and then be like oh I get a snooze a little bit.
Because if I wake up at 7 40 I'm gonna be like it's just not gonna go well.
Yeah and I've really been cutting it thinner and thinner.
Like today I woke up at 7 50 and I was like shit.
Yeah I've got 40 minutes to get out the door.
Like I've actually I managed to perfect it down to 15 minutes getting out of the door at one stage when I just was so sad about going to work I couldn't get out of bed.
Which is not a that's not a good space to be in and I'm not there anymore.
When I first started working my nine to five job and there have been occasions as well that I have literally had to like I've not been able to get out of bed in the morning and I've slept in and then I've woken up at 11 and I've had to co -work and have a chat to them and be like hey this is going on.
My mental health is not great at the moment and they've luckily they've been really understanding but um.
How much of that do you think was tied to work or do you think it was just like a balance?
No I think it really it really was tied to work and it was tied to the fact that I had no time for myself and I was just so exhausted and my mind was just not able to cope at all.
And I think as well like if you have a mental illness like I find it really important to have time to prioritize just looking after myself because sometimes looking after yourself is quite difficult and sometimes it does like take time to do things that other people could do quite quickly you know.
So part of that is like if I have more time on the weekend it is easier to do stuff like that.
Yeah no that's a really big thing and I'm glad that you kind of um recognize that and kind of took control and were like yeah this needs to change but it's you know and you were really lucky that you they were somewhat.
Yeah no I was really lucky flexible around that somewhat flexible yeah.
But do you think if you weren't working your nine to five what do you think you would be doing?
Was that too much of a scary question?
No um sorry I'm taking a moment to think.
I had a concept at one stage of really wanting to be able to do wolfing which is like working on an organic farm.
What's the one wolfing?
Wolfing W O O F. Yeah.
Maybe just one F. And so basically you work on an organic farm for free in exchange for like shelter and food.
Wow this is a real socialist epic.
Universal basic income free accommodation.
Yeah well because I was I think I really enjoy doing things where they're super practical and whilst I did not grow up in a farm in by any shape or form I love plants which you know.
Yeah she does. I own a lot of house plants.
I'm staring at them all right now it's about 15.
They are very hard to miss they are in your face.
Well there's 15 on that one table I know and then you just look around and there's even more but um yeah I just love the concept to like maybe live in a commune.
Yeah oh gosh isn't that's a terrible thing to say.
No it's not it's not at all but why is this?
I feel like it's very like no basic.
No it's not but if it's basic we have to also examine like why do so many people want to do like how many people listening have fantasies dropping everything and going and living in a van or traveling the world or moving to a new country or like living in a commune.
I think it's super stigmatized because it's the absolute other end of the spectrum from what like capitalist society expects of you.
Yeah and sometimes it's stigmatized like you're trying to be like unique like look at you go it's like actually maybe you're just doing the thing that's right for you and you just are scared that you can't do it.
Well who who is meant to be living in an office?
No one not living sorry well practically yeah if you consider you're spending how much?
With 35 percent of your waking hours at work but that does not include you know the time spent getting ready for work the commute like I'm what like an hour commute every day oh my goodness like I have to leave 30 minutes earlier and then it takes me 30 minutes to get home it's another hour then you
have to fucking get ready for work then you have to depress from work and you have to have a shower and then you you know if you want to go to the gym like there's just all these things that become so much more limited whereas if you worked on a commune you really have a lot more time just to actually
exist and know yourself.
I think that's so important and what working in an office does not do is allow you space or time to be an individual be an individual because that's the last thing that capitalism will want.
Yeah can you imagine?
Ah the world will fall apart.
If people actually realize that and again if this is your golden life I'm not dissing it but moving up in a workplace what is it like what is it going to serve you?
What are you going to get from that?
Yeah. Apart from like a weird narcissistic sense of power.
And money. And money obviously.
Yeah I thought this as well because I think when I was in high school I was really like all I want to do is make some money and be super successful and everyone admire me.
But why did you want to do that?
Because I didn't have anything else that I thought would bring me meaning.
So that's the thing because I was like this is what I've been taught will bring me meaning this is what I imagine people admire people who are rich people admire people who are successful and I'm so dependent on people admiring me.
And then I got to uni and about my second third year I was like really restructured that whole ideal.
And I was I just had this moment where I was just like that is actually not going to work for me.
It's not going to work for me because I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I do work from nine to five now don't I?
But is your warm life goal to become the CEO?
Hell no. Exactly. Hell no.
You're not a hypocrite you just exist within a capitalist society.
But also I'm working because I know that I need money to go off and do the things that I want to do and I think I've also been able to do other stuff alongside it like I do this podcast like have heaps of time for other things in my life.
But yeah I think that that was a huge thing that I had in my mind like this is what I need from my life this is what I want and then I had to completely rethink it and I used to always be like oh I can't imagine people who like oh you're just gonna be a bum all day.
I was very conservative I'm not now.
I was discussed in the last episode.
Yeah yeah. Done a full 180 but I really think it's like restructuring your priorities and I think a lot of people hit that point where they have that conundrum and why do you think people have a midlife crisis?
Yeah exactly that's what I mean.
Like because quarter life crisis is a quarter life crisis because you realize that like what you're doing what what's it actually and I think actually quickly COVID has had a huge huge like generated huge societal shift into wow okay life's actually quite short.
Yeah. Life is really uncertain we don't know what's going on.
Yeah so you better do something that you actually enjoy.
Yeah and family spend time with family.
Spend time with family.
And I actually think that as well and also just like how many workplaces you know how much we realize that actually you could take time off.
Oh like you could work from home quickly.
You could be flexible.
Half pay. Live with half pay.
What was that? I don't know that's available to you but it's a bit of a thing in the APS.
If you take leave take leave with half pay if you can afford it because basically for that day of leave or days of leave you will get half your pay but that means you get twice as much leave.
Oh if you can afford it fuck yeah.
If you can afford it concept.
I didn't know that was something people could do until like eight months into working in this job.
I want to do that. I don't get leave.
You don't get leave.
Oh are you a your contractor?
Well yeah I just get I'm not on a permanent contract.
Yeah. So I'm technically casual but I work well but I don't know but I'm on a semi -permanent basis working nine to five.
Oh my goodness. But I think it's just because I started out there as someone who was like just there as like a support person like as a researcher and then I got like promoted.
Not promoted but they need to get you.
No I love my workplace but like it's not the workplace that I don't like it's the concept of the work life.
Yes that's a really big thing to distinguish.
Well I truly and I have had a serious existential breakdown about this before now in front of my mum and my brother where I literally lay on the kitchen floor and I cried because I was like why can I not simply receive money for existing?
Yeah. Why do I need money?
Why do I need money and why do I have to work to a giddist and I can like I can hear the economic bros shouting at me as I say this.
Shut up Brad and shuts your name.
Oh gosh. Oh something lame like that.
But why like why? Yeah.
Why do humans like we've created obviously this huge doom.
Yeah. But why why did like why did we choose another one?
Nothing about me existing actually requires dollar dollar bills.
Yeah nothing. Right?
Nothing. It obviously facilitates things like healthcare and somewhere to live.
But then again why does that require a dollar dollar bills?
Why does that require dollar dollar bills?
Yeah we gotta go back to it.
It wouldn't well once upon a time it wouldn't have.
I mean bartering. But you also would have died at 35.
But I also would have died, oh I would have died very early on.
I got sick as a very young child.
I would have been killed off early.
Oh. Well you do not condone infanticide on this podcast.
No no no no. I'm sorry.
No I'm kidding. I'm teasing you.
No but you're right.
Like why does everything require money?
And that's what I think we were really getting at.
What's the pressure?
The pressure is money.
Yeah. The pressure is two things actually.
Like kind of what I was saying the pressure to be need to be to be conforming and to be doing what you think is going to give you meaning.
And work is what has given so many generations of people meaning because that was really a necessity.
And also money. And money requires allows you to do other things.
But it's like that equation.
It's like another equation where it's like at what point do you not even have the time to spend the money that you are earning because you wanted to spend money on things that you like?
And at what point are you just accumulating wealth?
And for who? Yeah well that's not going to go when you're dead.
Where's that going to go when you're dead?
And if we throw into this the good old little climate crisis.
Exactly. Working in the background.
If we only have like how much amount of time that we have left.
Which is probably not a lot.
Before things really hit the fan.
Hit the fan. Am I going to spend 20 of the best years that we have left on this planet as human beings before we go extinct?
Sitting in an office staring at a computer screen.
It's like an episode of Black Mirror.
It is like we are living in an episode of Black Mirror.
We really are. But and seriously I'm like so I mean if this is a motivation to anybody.
Quit your job. Are you gonna quit your job?
Look I need to figure out what I want to do that is not working nine to five.
And then I will be seriously considering.
And I'm locked in. The job that I'm in right now requires a certain period of time to do things in.
So to do things in.
It's like a set contract we'll say.
So it's kind of like but if you have the opportunity.
Also if there's younger people who are like.
Because I remember last year I had this whole thing.
I was like I just want to get a normal job.
I just want to work nine to five.
And I thought that was going to make me happy.
I was like I just want to do it like that.
No no no no no. Spend as much time as you can on A.
Centrelink. If you have that option.
Or B. Just like doing other things.
Working jobs that are you know might be different hours.
But like a lot more suitable for your lifestyle.
Having a nine to five job.
Fitting into that lifestyle doesn't actually bring meaning.
It doesn't make you a more mature person.
You don't need a rush to grow up and fit into that.
Yeah. Because you just give away so much of your freedom.
And even though you might have been told your whole life that that's something to aspire to and work towards.
Sometimes. It's just not.
It's just not. And you know the grass is always growing on the other side.
But yeah exactly. That's what obviously.
But if you seriously like seriously consider.
What is it that brings you meaning and value.
And joy. And joy. Yeah.
For probably 80 percent of people it is it is not working in an office.
It's not for me. No it's not for you.
Oh it is. There we go.
There's a hundred percent out of our sample of two.
So. So obviously. Lessons learned.
Peer reviewed research.
Yeah literally peer reviewed because we are peers.
We need to say goodbye because we have recorded 45 minutes.
Oh my goodness. Of this.
But we hope. Well I hope especially that this was kind of an informative look into what it's like transitioning into nine to five work when you're in your 20s the psychological shifts and changes that you undergo.
And yeah what it means for your health what it means for your sanity and your sense of self and why it's probably not all it's cracked up to be.
And yeah I think it's just a good discussion of the pressures that you face to fit into that mold.
Yeah. Even if it's against your own well -being.
Yeah. So thanks Erin.
Thanks for having me.
No worries. You know I love a good chat about work.
Yeah. No more work chat.
No more work chats.
No more work chats ever again.
Can we bend them? I think we should.
I think we definitely should.
Anyhow I hope you enjoyed this episode.
We'll have a new episode next week.
It's the psychology of the breakup.
And uh yeah. Spicy spicy.
Juicy. Juicy episode.
Oh yeah. It's juicy indeed.
Erin's giving me a knowing look.
But thanks for tuning in.
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On Tech Stuff, we travel from the minds of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel Prize winners to the depths of TikTok to ask burning questions about technology, from high tech to low culture and everywhere in between.
Join us. Listen to Tech Stuff on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
