At David's Bridal, love is in every stitch.
From the initial sketch to the final details, each style is designed with exquisite craftsmanship.
Turn those prom dreams into reality with David's Bridal.
Every prom dress features handcrafted details filled with love.
Create the perfect prom look in person with the help of their expert stylist and feel David's Bridal's commitment to making everyone feel special no matter their budget.
Sign up for Diamond Loyalty to save 15 % on your first purchase.
Earn points towards special rewards and more at davidsbridle .com.
Being a rock star is very fun, but helping people is way more fun.
I figured out the formula.
I just have to work hard, and then that's magic.
Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever -important creative spark, the magic.
Listen to Math & Magic on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told.
This season explores women from the 19th century to now.
Women who were murderers and scammers, but also women who were photojournalists, lawyers, writers, and more.
This podcast tells more than just the brutal, gory details of horrific acts.
I delve into the good, the bad, the difficult, and all the nuance I can find.
Because these are the stories that we need to know to understand the intersection of society, justice, and the fascinating workings of the human psyche.
Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains, or often somewhere in between.
Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
hey y 'all it's your girl cheekies and i'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast cheekies and chill i'll be sharing even more personal stories with you guys and as always you'll get my exclusive take on topics like love personal growth health family ties and more and don't forget i'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of dear cheekies it's going to be an exciting year and i hope that you can join me listen to cheekies and chill season four on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show.
Welcome back to the podcast.
New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of our 20s.
Today, let's talk about destiny or something that feels strangely attached to it.
Let's talk about personality, whether it's fixed or it can be changed, how it shapes our future, our beliefs, maybe even how happy we are.
Personality is like a little bit of a black box.
Like we know it's shaped by nature and nurture.
We know that genetics are involved, how we were raised is kind of involved.
But I think as we get older, we become more aware of the parts of ourselves that are holding us back and that, you know, we really would wish for something different.
Well, today I have the honor of interviewing someone who has investigated that very possibility.
What if we could be ourselves but better by rewiring our personality?
I want to welcome on author and journalist Olga Hazan.
Thank you for joining us.
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
I'm very, very excited for this episode and this topic in general.
But before we kind of jump into it, can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience and your work?
sure um my name is Olga Hazan and I'm a staff writer at the Atlantic magazine um and I'm also an author of books um this is my second book uh and it is actually kind of stems from um a cover story I did for the Atlantic a few years ago um so that's that's my backstory and you're not going to give us any spoilers I feel like the the cover story like you go into it kind of in the book right it?
Yeah, yeah, I can. Yeah, I can, I can.
I can give you a spoiler.
So the cover story, I kind of experimented very lightly with changing my personality.
But then I kind of realized that I needed to do more.
And that it, you know, kind of letting up on the experiment.
I backtracked, I noticed that I was sort of falling back into old patterns.
So the book is really an overview of the five traits of personality, my personal attempts to change on three of them.
And because the other two, I actually don't need to change.
They're fine. They're very high in me as it is.
But I do interview other people who increased on those traits through various methods.
We're going to get to that because I feel like it's such an interesting premise.
But I do also want to talk about how you became a journalist, how you became a writer.
I think as much as I love interviewing people about the very, you know, amazing niche things that they're doing, and they're like, whether it's psychology or neuroscience or anything like that, you know, this podcast is for people in their 20s.
And a lot of people probably aspire to do what you do.
Can you kind of talk us through how you got from maybe graduating high school to where you are now?
Sure. Yeah. Wow. That's a long time ago.
So I graduated from high school like 20 years ago.
Then I went to college, did not major in journalism, but really found myself drawn to journalism.
I did an internship in journalism, and then I went to graduate school after I graduated from college, which is not like a necessary step for anyone listening at home, but it is something that I did.
And then I got a job at the Washington Post out of graduate school.
And I worked there for a brief time.
And then I moved to the Atlantic in 2013.
And I've worked at the Atlantic ever since.
And I've done a couple different jobs there, but I've mostly been a writer covering health and human behavior.
Well, that's the perfect topic for this.
Do you remember what your first big piece of writing was like your first article where you were like oh my gosh like I'm a journalist yeah um that probably was so when I did my internship in college I wrote one story um during that internship it was complex why I only wrote one but that that was like the amount that I was allowed to write um and it was about online gaming addiction um and uh I remember when it came out I felt so just accomplished like I was like yes like my life is all coming together and of course like I wouldn't be a full -time writer for I think eight years after that um but it
was it was like very uh good motivation to keep going you know I love stories like that where it's like okay just because your dream isn't happening right now doesn't mean that it's not going to come true eventually like as you said you had this like what sounds like this big accomplished moment.
And, you know, it really didn't come full circle until what did you say, like 10 years ago, almost maybe 12 years ago, which we love hearing those stories on the show.
Let's talk about this book.
The premise of this book was basically that cover story and this idea that you wanted to change your personality.
Why did you feel like it was necessary?
Like, why did you feel like you had to do that?
Yeah. So your personality, you know, a lot of people think it's sort of like what you like or dislike or sort of the kinds of things you say or whatever.
But it's really a lot about your reactions to situations and kind of like something comes across your way.
And are you like, yes, let's do it.
Or are you like, oh, I don't know about that.
Or, you know, it's kind of like how you interact with the world.
And I noticed that a lot of how I was interacting with the world was not helping me, really.
So the intro to the book kind of gives a good overview of this.
But I had this day, this is before I had a kid.
And it was like, now having had a kid, I'm like, wow, this was actually like a fantastic day.
I should have just appreciated it.
But you know, it was like, I got stuck in traffic.
I got a bad haircut.
I got photos taken that looked really bad.
Um, I had a stressful thing where I had to like pick my mom up at the airport, but I had to go grocery shopping before, but the, like there was like a delay at the grocery store and then I was going to be late to pick up my mom.
And it was like this whole thing.
And I just had a meltdown.
I got back to my Airbnb that I was staying in and I like drank wine and like cried to my boyfriend at the time and was just like, I hate everything.
Um, and then I kind of got to thinking and I was like, even like me saying that now to you, I'm like, wow, that is so whiny and like unappreciative of the fact that like that day, you know, I was able to buy groceries.
I was in Miami like I got myself to Miami.
I, you know, was getting a haircut like spa day for me.
You know, I got professional photos taken like, you know, and it was sort of like I had this realization that like, wow, I can take anything good and positive and maybe or maybe even just like mediocre, right?
Like a lot of things that happen in life are kind of like, oh, that was whatever, you know.
And I have a tendency to dwell on the negatives and to like emphasize the negatives and create these stories out of the negatives that were not serving me.
And it was making me like not enjoy my life.
Like to the extent that I that it could have and should have been enjoyed.
And so that's kind of the long and the short of it why I decided to change that's actually really interesting and can I be honest maybe I'm like maybe I need to change my personality because I had a day like that like literally yesterday like I'm sorry I know I literally even got my hair cut and like I didn't like my hair cut and like my mom was literally in town yesterday as well and that's like honestly crazy um so like you're here I'm like hearing that story and I'm like no like you you just feel your emotions girl like there's a time and a place to feel your emotions but you can feel your
emotions and also like look at the bright side you know yeah no it's just really funny and i think like what you're really pointing out is like this wasn't like a one -off situation like you had seen this pattern of not being able to enjoy your life and what i'm hearing is that you were like okay well something needs to change in me why did you hone in on personality and like specific building blocks of personality rather than something else why didn't you like speak spiritual enlightenment why didn't you like say to yourself oh I need to change something about my lifestyle like did you feel yeah
what was like the focus on changing what I'm guessing is like neuroticism right like as a building block yeah so neuroticism was one of the things I wanted to change so neuroticism is one of the five traits and it's just anxiety and depression right and I I had a lot of that.
I had a lot of anxiety and a lot of kind of negativity as I mentioned.
But there are other elements of personality and they sort of encompass those other things that you mentioned.
So actually as far as like improving my neuroticism, a big thing I actually looked to was Buddhism and a lot of Buddhist teachings.
Because a lot of neuroticism, it's not about like reducing the number of things that happen to you that are bad.
It's I mean, although like if you're like addicted to drugs and like that's why bad things keep happening to you, like that's something to look to.
But let's say you're like a like a functional person who's who's, you know, living like a basically normal life.
It's going to be a lot easier to change your reactions to the things that happen to you than it is to like make every single thing in the world go your way.
So that's why I kind of like looked inward.
And personality does encompass a lot of those things that you mentioned.
So like spirituality, Buddhism has a lot to say about depression and anxiety.
And, you know, as far as like lifestyle, that was really more extroversion.
Like I wanted to become more extroverted.
And that was a big part.
Lifestyle was a big part of that is, is sort of, uh, how often do you go out to socialize and do you make an effort to do that?
You know, not just like, do you sit, sit by the phone and wait for people to contact you, but do you make connections?
Do you try to get out there?
Um, so those, those are things that I did.
Um, but it, I, I called it personality change because personality includes all that.
Okay. That makes, that makes a lot more sense.
Um, so in this like endeavor to change your personality did you figure out like who the happiest kinds of people were like was there an assumption that like the happiest kinds of people are extroverted and are lower neuroticism and like high and openness to experiences like thinking about like the big five what did you come across in your research yeah so people are not going to be thrilled to hear this but the happiest people are like high in all the traits except for neuroticism um so so there's five traits um i will just briefly say what they are it's so openness to experience happy people
are high in that because that's like yeah spiritual but not religious like creative imaginative um uh conscientiousness which is like getting stuff done um so it's like being places on time time and being like healthy and exercising.
Happy people tend to be high in that.
Extroversion. Extroverts are happier.
That's like a really consistent finding in psychology.
Unfortunately, I'm an introvert, and I was not thrilled to hear that.
Agreeableness. Agreeable people are happier.
They're always like making friends and going to baby showers and what have you.
And then neuroticism is the one that's correlated with unhappiness.
And so the opposite of it um is emotional stability that's what it's called and people who are high in that are happier kind of rough I'm not gonna lie yeah I know I know I'm sorry like I'm an introvert and I have anxiety I think like maybe caveat like I'll put the caveat in um like sometimes I think that it's like are introverts less happy or the scales by which we measure happiness just obviously overly influenced by extroverts right because who's going to participate in those early studies that like created indicators for happiness it's going to be the people who have a lot of friends who are going
to invite them to participate and who are like yeah I'll do this I'll go out like I'll get paid to like sit in a room with a stranger for an hour like so sometimes I think that and I also do think that like what we'll get to is even if you don't think you can change your personality you can most certainly manage it and you can manage like medications and you can manage lifestyle factors and routine and therapists so don't see this as like a curse upon your name if you kind of associate with some of those other traits um but this kind of leads me to my next question like at what age do you think
our personality really starts to stick um at what age do you think we really feel like stuck in who we are yeah so I would say there's not an age at which we start to stick in who we are.
So that used to be the thinking, this like influential psychologist named William James had this infamous sort of quote that like the character is set like plaster by the age of 30.
And which is relevant for your podcast for people in their 20s.
So I mean, even he said, like, in your 20s, you can still change.
But but kind of more recent research has found that that's not really true that people kind of continue to change throughout their lives even naturally even if you don't really do anything to try to change your personality is gonna kind of shift from decade to decade you're gonna be a different person you know when you have kids and like a job than you were in college um than you were in high school you know um and that is like freeing and it's kind of scary but it's also kind of nice that like you're not gonna be like if you're not crazy about something um you know about yourself or about your
life you're not stuck with it forever that is very very freeing and even like as we get um into like older age as well something that i like a statistic that i really like to talk about is how um by the time people reach like 60 and 70 symptoms of mental illness really decline um which i don't i don't know i've always like thought about that and been like oh that sounds great like can't wait for that yeah can't wait for that like maybe i'll have 10 years of just like bliss um but it is like a really beautiful thing that you mentioned this i hear this a lot like another myth about personality change
slash personality stuckness is by the time you reach 25 like your frontal lobe is fully developed and i think we kind of think like okay so like that's it like this is who i'm always going to be what evidence did you find like on the contrary before i like really dive into your personal experiment yeah so um so there's two kind of um branches of evidence to the contrary um so first uh your frontal lobe being fully formed doesn't really mean anything about your personality because we don't have like a lobe in our brain that is where the personality lives um so like even if they study like um brain changes
or or you know like those like fmri studies where it's like brains lighting up, um, those don't necessarily correlate perfectly with, uh, personality necessarily.
Um, so, um, there's kind of two elements to this.
The first is that, um, when researchers have followed people, um, you know, and given them personality tests over and over across the years, um, they do find that people change.
Um, you know, they tend to change in certain ways over time.
So like you mentioned that people become kind of mentally healthier in old age, neuroticism does go down naturally across your life.
So if you feel like you're very anxious and depressed, usually in older age, people become less so.
So that sort of just naturally happens.
You don't have to do anything.
You don't have to like take any Lexapro.
That naturally happens for most people.
The other element of this is that if you actually try to change, it can happen even faster.
So there's been studies that show that people who get therapy, for example, become less neurotic.
And in a short period of time, they become a lot less neurotic than you would expect them to having just like naturally, you know, decline in neuroticism.
And the same with some of the studies that I cover with my in my book, researchers who have given people these like challenges, you know, people will say, I'd really like to become more extroverted.
I'd like to make more friends.
And they're like, OK, every day for or whatever, every week for a month, reach out to someone new and have coffee with them or have lunch with them or whatever.
and they do maybe like five to 10 challenges like that over a period of time they actually find that they do grow in extroversion based on personality tests that they take at the beginning and the end um so not only do you naturally change you can also change through effort so are things like introversion like I always thought that they were very innate like it's a genetic oh my I don't know like genetic predisposition it's temperament but you're saying that actually no it's more of a nurture factor well it's like environment sorry yeah it's so it's both so um so genetics is responsible for about 40
to 60 percent of our personality um and even then it's not like direct like if you think about either of your parents you're probably not exactly like either of them right you're probably like you have like elements of them but you're not like they're twin like you you kind of most people are i mean usually people are relieved to hear this, like not exactly like either parent, right?
So you get a little bit, like you get some ingredients.
So I have like a natural proclivity toward anxiety because both my parents are very anxious, right?
But at the same time, there's like this 40 to 60 other percent of personality that we don't really know where specifically it comes from.
It's not necessarily like the way your parents raised you um it's like it's like kind of that but it's also like your friends it's like did you go to college what kind of job do you have um you know do you make an effort to like read self -help books it's kind of like the stuff that you do and absorb into yourself that creates that other part of personality so that's the kind of element that I'm talking about is that like yeah if you have two parents who are totally bookish and hate talking to people you're going to naturally be kind of like, I feel really introverted.
But if you go into a job in sales and you talk to people all day and everyone around you is extroverted and you get high fives and promotions for being extroverted, you're going to be a little bit more extroverted than you naturally would be, if that makes sense.
So it's kind of like at some point reinforcement does kind of work like yeah yeah absolutely rewarded see I find this really interesting because like my parents are so totally opposite each other like they are the perfect definition of like opposites attract like my dad is like a stay -at -home dad and like we call him like a charity wife like he runs like a non -for -profit like giving bags to refugee children in Australia and like then my mom is like a like badass like CEO and like she has like she is Olga like she is the lowest person like the lowest neurotic neuroticism levels I've ever seen in an individual
like I have never seen that woman break a sweat she is not anxious at all like nothing phases her and then my dad is like the complete opposite and it's like completely like he's not completely anxious but he's very anxious and very existential and very like in his own head about very deep things and it's really funny like seeing like me and my sisters always joke that it was like you know one of us got my mom's jeans and my me and my other sister got my dad's jeans and it was like damn like if I could switch like I totally yeah so it's yeah so there you see it yeah yeah yeah but then again it's
like me and my sister like not to like tell her story but had like had very different approaches to like how we face neuroticism and like um and other things as well and like agreeableness and all those things and like there definitely has been a difference in like how we've approached it and how we've changed as people so I'm ranting really what I want to get to is what you found in yourself but we're going to take a tiny break and we'll be back in just a second stay tuned hey y 'all it's your girl cheekies and i'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast cheekies and chill i'll be
sharing even more personal stories with you guys and i know a lot of people are gonna attack me why are you gonna go visit your dad your mom wouldn't be okay with it i'm gonna tell you guys right now i know my mother and i know my mom had a very forgiving heart that is my story on plastic surgery this is my truth i think the last time i cried like that was when i lost my mom.
Like that, like yelling.
I was like, no. I was like, oh, and I thought, what did I do wrong?
And as always, you'll get my exclusive take on topics like love, personal growth, health, family ties, and more.
And don't forget, I'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of Dear Cheekies.
So my fiance and I have been together for 10 years.
In the first two years of being together, I find out he is cheating on me, not only with women, but also with men.
What should I do? Okay, where do I start?
That's not love. He doesn't love you enough because if he loved you, he'd be faithful.
It's going to be an exciting year and I hope that you can join me.
Listen to Cheekies and Chill Season 4 as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey y 'all, I'm Maria Fernanda Diez.
My podcast, When You're Invisible, is my love letter to the working -class people and immigrants who shaped my life.
I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before.
Season two is all about community, organizing and being underestimated.
All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks, let's do something about it.
I can't have more than $2 ,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits.
They won't let you succeed.
I know we get paid to serve you guys, but, like, be respectful.
We're made out of the same things.
Bone, body, blood. It's rare to have Black male teachers.
Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament.
Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the My Cultura podcast network.
Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia.
I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing.
I'm having conversations with some interesting folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reached the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use.
I'll be joined by innovative leaders like Chairman and CEO of Health Beauty, Durang Amin.
The way I approach risk is constantly try things and actually make it okay to fail.
I'm sitting down with legendary singer, songwriter and philanthropist, Jewel.
I wanted a way to do something that I loved for the rest of my life.
We're also hearing how leaders brought their businesses out of unprecedented times, like Stéphane Boncel, CEO of Moderna.
It becomes a human decision to decide to throw by the window your business strategy and to do what you think is the right thing for the world.
Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever -important creative spark, the magic.
Listen to Math & Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Did you know that companies hire the most in the first two months of the year, or that nearly half of workers are worried about being left behind?
I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn's editor -at -large for jobs and career development, and my show Get Hired brings you all the information you need to, well, get hired.
People are forming opinions of you even before you log into the Zoom or walk into the room.
And so you really have to think about, what is it I want to display?
You don't plant a garden and then just walk away and expect it to thrive.
You are in there pulling out the weeds, you're pruning it, you're watering it.
It's the same thing with your network.
You should always be in there actively managing your network.
If you don't feel confident to say a number, even admitting that to a recruiter is going to be far better than saying, well, what is your budget for the role?
A lot is in the follow -up, right?
don't wait to follow up whether you're a new grad an established professional or contemplating a career change get hired is for you listen to get hired with andrew seaman on the iHeartRadio app apple podcast or wherever you like to listen we are back with Olga Hazan talking about can we change our personality this is kind of the crux of this whole interview what happened firstly what did you do and secondly what did you find yeah so um that's like the whole book so um let me just break it down into let's talk about extroversion first because I think that is like the easiest to wrap your head around
and also has had the clearest results so um extroversion basically the secret to increasing extroversion is to socialize with people some of the other traits are more existential and more like mindset oriented and kind of like how you think about things um extroversion is like very clear cut go talk to people like go do activities um so I signed up for a bunch of stuff I signed up for improv um sailing club uh a bunch of meetup groups um so which is like groups of strangers meeting up literally um I like throw a party at my house Um, I just went out all the time.
Um, I went from basically going out maybe once a week to going out like pretty much every night or like not, and not like going out drinking, like, although there was a lot of drinking, um, like, like just being around people.
Um, and I found that like almost every time before I went, I dreaded it.
I did not want to go.
I was like I hate improv I don't even know why I'm doing this this is stupid like I don't want to go and then almost every time after I would do it I felt better I was like that was super fun or like that person in the sailing my sailboat today was really interesting or like that was cool or like hey like I got to get whatever a burger on the way back home like there was something that came out of it usually that I was like, huh, that was like a nice break from the day.
That was like a nice way to like liven up the day a little bit.
Um, and I think that's kind of like the, um, when I talk about increasing extroversion or like changing your introversion, um, you can remain an introvert, but just do like 20 % more stuff, like connect with people 20 % more.
And there's a little bit of a mood boost there like researchers who are introverts have studied this concept and have found that like even just connecting with people a little bit and it doesn't mean that you have to be like the life of the party like i think people assume extroversion means like you're super talkative and like can't shut up and you know or you're always telling jokes you can like go hang out with two close friends and like you know listen more than you talk and like knit the whole time.
And that's still extroversion.
That's, you know, still being around people.
So yeah, for that one, my extroversion did go up.
And I think what I took away from that is that, like, I do enjoy having fun.
I need to sometimes force myself to have fun.
But it's okay to do that.
It's okay to be like, commit, you know, kind of to an exercise class or to something else that doesn't sound super appealing all the time but ends up being rewarding this is what I always say like people people will dm me be like how do I make new friends or like how do I stop feeling like everything is an effort and I'm like pick two things to do a week and do them in the same place at the same time and you will meet other people who are doing the same thing as you like whether it is it an exercise class or like an improv class or a life drawing class or like social sport there are so many people
out there who also want to make friends and who also are like seeking connection and there's like no shame about it either of being like okay I'm trying to train my brain to like this more because you do fall into a habit like I'm such an extroverted person and last week I spent the entire day at my house and like the entire week like indoors working and I had such cabin fever and I was like I've just I'm just so depressed like I just don't know who why I am anymore.
And then I went and did like barefoot bowls with my friends and I was like, wow, like life is so beautiful.
Like look at those flowers.
It's like giving your brain what it needs.
So extraversion was the one that you saw an improvement in.
What about neuroticism?
Yeah. So neuroticism, I also saw an improvement.
So neuroticism, I will cut to the chase.
I meditated a whole lot.
And meditation is also something that I did not enjoy.
I didn't even enjoy it while I was doing it, and I did not enjoy it after I was done.
I was not like, that was really nice.
That sounds painful.
Thank God I don't have to do that for another 24 hours.
I signed up for a class where we had to meditate for 45 minutes every day, which is so long.
It's literally the longest 45 minutes of your life.
However, it did work.
My neuroticism went down and my anxiety went down a little bit, but my depression went down a ton.
Um, it went down a lot, like to basically like not being depressed anymore.
Um, and why that happened is sort of anyone's guess.
Um, if I had to like posit why that occurred, it's that, um, I did a lot of what's called loving kindness meditation, which is where you're just like really nice to yourself, for however long and it's usually I do it to like a guided like a tape basically people don't use tape anymore like a recording like a guided yeah exactly like a guided recording and it's like you know like like there's like the line that always makes me cry is like there's you can search the whole universe for someone who is more deserving of love and happiness than you are yourself and not find anyone and it's like like
oh yeah you're just like oh my god this tape is like um so it's it's sharon salzberg um and i use the 10 happier app for meditation oh i love that app yeah yeah up from um the yale is it from the yale person no um i think i'm thinking of jud brewer um the the 10 % happier is Dan Harris.
Oh yeah. Dan Harris.
Yes, yes, yes. He does podcast as well.
I think. Yes. Yeah.
I mean, everyone has a podcast.
It's so embarrassing.
But but he, yeah, but it, it actually like really worked.
I think like there's something about like repeating that.
I don't know. And my meditation teacher also really tried to like hammer home the self -compassion.
And I think it, it worked.
Yeah. Wow. See, i get this like meditation i i've never met someone who's been like i'm really into it all the time like i do feel like you kind of have to drag yourself into it kicking and screaming it's like when you have to like get a needle and you're like i really don't want to do this or like go to the dentist or like go to the doctor and then you feel amazing like oh wow that pain's gone like that's what meditation sounds like and it's just like discipline towards your soul right right in the same way that you exercise your body like you're exercising your mind even if it's like tense and uncomfortable
and stressful or whatever in the moment like it feels gives you strength later on I think it what it did is made me less afraid of my negative emotions um so you're sitting there like sometimes for hours and you're just like your mind is like going and going and it's silence you know and I think what it does is like for me at least I don't know if this is like correct but um for me at least it made me like inevitably like negative feelings will come up during that but it was sort of just like it's okay like nothing bad is really happening right now you're literally sitting in a room in your house
on a cushion like um meditating but you you kind of have you still have your same negative you know strong emotions if you're someone who's prone to neuroticism but it i don't know it just lets you like um kind of not be as thrown off by them or like because bad things are still i mean my meditation teacher would say this all the time like things happen that you don't like um which is like very simple but it's like oh yeah and like you're just you're gonna have to deal with that for the rest of your life and it's all about you know do you you know your mom you mentioned is like so not neurotic
i'm sure bad things happen to her but she thinks about them in a like somehow more zen way than the average person I'd love to know her secret I would love to as well it's crazy and she's had a tough life like not to give her story and I have done an episode with her where she talks about it but not even the full extent like not an easy life and sometimes I just look at her and I can see like there'll be a time that like me or my my sister will like be panicking about something or being like don't you just see like how terrible this is and I can literally just see her looking at me being like
no like trying really hard to have empathy for me and being like I just can't do it like she's incredible and like I she has obviously like learned what to say but she doesn't like feel it in her bones the way that like my dad would or my sister would so she honestly needs to do like some kind of life course like she's pretty incredible okay I want to ask this question that I think everyone is probably thinking at this point you did all these amazing exercises how long did this last as well like six months this lasted a year okay a year and when did that experiment and um I honestly only had a year
of book leave so it was just like June of uh 2022 to June of 2023 okay cool um so like a year a solid year have you found that you've gone back to your old self since so in some ways but not in others um since I did that I had a baby and And that necessarily like changes a lot about how you're thinking about things, especially in the beginning.
But I would say that there are still a lot of things that I carried through into even my life as a – I guess I'm still a new parent technically.
So one example is like just reaching out to other moms.
So it's a very stressful time when you first have a baby.
Like it just is. there's no getting around it.
Um, you don't know what you're doing and they're very tiny and they, um, cannot speak to you.
And, um, so you're just like, ah, what do you want?
Um, so I kind of made a point of reaching out to other moms and like, I'm in a mom's group that's been really supportive.
Um, I also just like really, really try to, even in day -to -day life, if I meet another mom with kids the same age, I really try to like reach out and at least see if she's open to the possibility of friendship.
And sometimes that means that I, and this is not something I would have done previously.
I actually do a lot of reaching out repeatedly.
So like if someone, let's say I reach out to someone and they're like, yeah, let's have coffee.
And we have coffee and we both have a good time.
And then some time elapses and no one follows up.
I might reach out again, even though it was me the last time too.
And then I might do that like a third time.
Like there are some relationships where I'm just always the person who organizes things.
And that used to really bother me.
Like I was like, that person doesn't want to be friends.
Like I'm going to move on because they're not putting in equal effort into organizing things.
And like, I don't, I don't want that.
But I kind of just realized through this that like everyone has stuff going on and like people just don't think about things the same way they are maybe swamped in other ways they're maybe like not as comfortable with reaching out like I don't know it just made me like a lot less um sensitive I guess about these like rules of social interaction that I had previously thought were like iron like laws you know um so that's been one thing that I've noticed like yesterday we went on a play date to this woman who I like barely knew just because I was like I'm really bored and if I have to like sing
baby beluga one more time I'm gonna lose my mind um so I was like let's go over to Yu Chen's house um and yeah that's what we did and it was great you know so I don't know I think it's like a really interesting like how you can I it's quite personal but like whether you would have been a different kind of mother if you hadn't done this experiment like the year before you had a baby and like maybe the answer is no but maybe it's like wow like in this weird way like maybe you were preparing your personality for like literally the biggest challenge on planet earth like i heard this quote it's like
when you become a parent you have to use every single skill that you've ever put on a resume like and the ones that you haven't um so it would be interesting to see that not that you wouldn't have been a very competent capable mother if you hadn't have done this but it's yeah it's fascinating like i would have loved to see a control group I know I'm not very competent or capable as it is but I will say that I think that doing this experiment helped me decide to have a baby okay cool interesting like it helped me get more comfortable with the idea of having a baby yeah babies listen I don't have one
but they seem like a lot of work and they seem like they will put you in like a state like they will bring up all those challenges.
So, you know, the other day, this is like so funny, but I didn't realize you can't give babies water.
Not until six months.
See, guys, I don't know if any of you did know that listeners of the podcast, but I was like, wow, if I had a kid right now and no one had told me that, like that would have been a real problem.
Like what are the other things that I don't know about this?
Like, you end up, you end up Googling.
Don't worry about that stuff don't don't worry about it right now it's honestly you will you will be googling you will google the internet has answers you google everything no one knows any of this stuff before they start there we go guys and I think it will be a long time but um I've got one final question for you and I ask every single guest on the podcast this same question what advice would you have for listeners in their 20s like what's one thing that you'd wish you'd known earlier and it doesn't have to be about what we talked about today I would say that um my advice for people in their
20s um is that it's okay to just pursue what you want um you uh don't have to do something that um seems practical or like what other people want you to do or just because you've always been doing it.
It's a time of life when you can completely pick the thing that is your biggest goal, the thing you most want in the world, and just go at it with full force.
That's what I would recommend doing.
I also love that. I love that piece of advice.
I would give that advice myself.
Oh, good. Which is brilliant, which is so brilliant.
I want to thank you for coming on the podcast.
Where can the listeners find you?
Actually, I want to give a shout out to an article that you wrote um that I think is really would be a really amazing it's called the joy of underperforming I think you wrote it like a couple of years ago maybe um but if you guys are looking for further listening for further reading I'm sorry um all grown men and not even let you give your own recommendations I will in a second but um I remember reading that article that you wrote and being like wow this is incredible for people in their 20s but it's great but where else can can they find you?
Yeah. So our website is theatlantic .com.
And I'm a writer there.
You can find me and all my brilliant colleagues there.
And you can find my book, which is called Me But Better wherever books are sold.
I'm very excited for it to come out.
It comes out today.
If you're listening to this the day that it launched, this is released.
You can literally go and pre -order a copy.
And I know we had quite a few spoilers, but having already read a few chapters slash pages of this book like there is so much more there and so much more science and research and just like fascinating tidbits so thank you so much Olga for coming on the show and as always if there is someone that you know who would like to listen to this episode who you think would be interested in this topic feel free to send them a link make sure that you are following along if you want to rate us five stars that would be very much appreciated until next time thank you for listening and stay kind, be safe, be
gentle to yourself.
We will talk very, very soon.
I'll be joined by innovative leaders like Chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Terang Amin.
Legendary singer -songwriter and philanthropist, Jewel.
Being a rock star is very fun, but helping people is way more fun.
And Damian Maldonado, CEO of American Financing.
I've figured out the formula is have to work hard, then that's magic.
Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever -important creative spark, the magic.
Listen to Math & Magic on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told.
This season explores women from the 19th century to now.
Women who were murderers and scammers, but also women who were photojournalists, lawyers, writers, and more.
This podcast tells more than just the brutal, gory details of horrific acts.
I delve into the good, the bad, the difficult, and all the new ones I can find.
Because these are the stories that we need to know.
to understand the intersection of society, justice, and the fascinating workings of the human psyche.
Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes, or villains, or often somewhere in between.
Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey y 'all, it's your girl Cheeky's and I'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast, Cheeky's and Chill.
I'll be sharing even more personal stories with you guys.
And as always, you'll get my exclusive take on topics like love, personal growth, health, family ties, and more.
And don't forget, I'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of Dear Cheeky's.
It's going to be an exciting year and I hope that you can join me.
Listen to Cheekies and Chill Season 4 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Emi Olea, host of the podcast Crumbs.
For years, I had to rely on other people to tell me my story.
And what I heard wasn't good.
You really f***ed last night.
It felt like I lived most of my life in a blackout.
I was trapped in addiction.
I had to grab the lamp and smash it against the walls.
And then I decided I wanted to tell my own story.
Listen to Chrome's on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
