At one level, effective communication boils down simply to making things accessible, simplifying so people can understand, providing the context to help them learn and allowing yourself to build curiosity to motivate people to pay attention.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today, I am really excited to be speaking with Adam Bryant.
Adam is a senior managing director and a partner at the Exco Group, and he is a former New York Times journalist and bestselling author, known for his corner office column, where he interviewed over 500 CEOs and executives.
His work focuses on demystifying leadership, identifying the key qualities of successful leaders and translating those insights into actionable advice for managers.
He is the author of several books, including Quick and Nimble and The CEO Test.
Welcome Adam.
I am really excited for our conversation.
Great to be here, Matt.
Thank you for the invite.
All right.
Shall we get started?
Let's do it.
You've documented the career journeys of countless leaders.
What are some of the specific patterns or trends you've identified that have helped these leaders to be successful in their careers?
It's something I think a lot about, and I've come up with my top three, if you'll indulge me.
So the first one is the ability to simplify complexity, which I know is a topic that's near and dear to your heart, but I don't think you can be an effective leader if you can't do that.
So much of leadership is like.
There's a lot going on in the world, in your particular industry, inside your company.
And I think it's a key leadership moment to be able to stand on a stage and say this is where we're going.
This is how we're going to get there.
And this is when we're going to get there.
But the timeline is.
That's a high art of leadership being able to simplify but not oversimplify complexity.
So that's number one.
I do think a lot about this word, authenticity which I think has become much more important just in the last several years.
People want that and expect that from their leaders.
Authenticity is one of those words that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
The way I think about it is that you need to know what your values are and to be able to communicate them.
And not just in terms of fridge magnet poetry that, you know, integrity is in part.
But to be able to say, like, I want to share with you the three values that are important to me.
I want to tell you the stories about how these became important to me.
And I want to tell you how these values show up in my leadership style day to day.
So you know what to expect and you know where they come from.
And to me, like that's a big component of being an authentic leader.
The final point I'll make is just leaders have to be comfortable in the balancing acts, the paradoxes, the contradictions of leadership.
Because the thing about the leadership space people are always looking for shortcuts and saying leadership is about this one thing and it's never about one thing.
It's always about two things that are usually in intention.
Part of your job as a leader is to create a sense of urgency while also being patient.
Part of your job as a leader is to be compassionate, but also hold people accountable.
You need to be a really good listener, but you also need to know when to say folks, I made a decision.
We're going left.
We're not going right.
And so just all those sort of gray areas, those balancing acts.
I think that's another thing that you simply have to be able to do to be an effective leader.
I really appreciate you distilling that down.
So it's to take complexity and make it accessible, simplify it, help people to prioritize.
Authenticity, which is really about values and setting people's expectations for what you expect from them and yourself.
And then this ability to deal with the dialectics and tensions that present themselves.
We spent a whole episode talking with Rob Siegel, who I teach with, who wrote a book on system leadership.
And you're right.
There are so many tensions that we all have to deal with, especially leaders.
That's critical.
When you look back at the synthesis you've done, the career journeys that you've seen, Is there a particular mistake or two that leaders tend to make, especially when it comes to communicating around themselves or their companies, that you've seen, that we could learn from and try to avoid?
I do keep coming back to simplicity.
So two things, one simplicity and two repetition.
And I think for a lot of leaders, things tend to be very clear in leaders' heads.
In the work that I do at my firm.
We coach senior leaders and usually there's a gap between how clear things are in the leader's head and how clear they are to everybody else.
Look earlier in my career, when I was a reporter, I followed around a CEO for a couple of days doing a profile on them.
And there was a moment where they stood on a stage in front of literally thousands of employees.
And the first words were, I've got 11 things on my mind.
And you could literally just feel the energy drain out of the room.
And all the science shows that most people can't remember more than three or four things day to day.
So I do think there's this learning curve that I've seen, that I've heard a lot about in leaders, which is just I have to keep simplifying this.
From one of the CEOs, I interviewed a guy named Marcus Ryu.
He had this great expression that really stayed with me in terms of communication.
I think about a lot myself when I give talks, and my shorthand version of his theory is the Einstein theory of communication.
And what he said is that you can have a room full of Einsteins literally the smartest people on the planet but there's something about the human brain that the bigger the audience, the more the collective IQ drops.
So I think about that a lot.
And so when you're giving talks like, my advice is big fonts, a few bullet points, short sentences because yes, everybody in the audience is smart, but there's something about as audiences get bigger you have to keep it simpler and simpler.
So the second point I'll make is about repetition.
And again, I've heard this a lot from leaders as part of their learning curve.
You're like, why do I have to say this again?
I just said it the last town hall.
And you have to say it again.
You've got to say it seven times, seven different ways for people to hear you once.
I love the rule that I heard from one CEO, which is you have to get comfortable with people almost teasing you, because they know exactly what you're going to say.
And when you do that, you've got them.
But just being comfortable in the sense of like, folks, you've heard this before.
It's important to say it again.
Let's reset on our strategy, et cetera, et cetera.
This notion of distilling things down so people can really understand them.
I like the term accessibility over simplicity, simply because sometimes simplicity implies dumbing something down and I'm not a big proponent of that.
But making it accessible so people really understand, helping them prioritize, see what's important.
And you're right.
We suffer from the curse of knowledge and sometimes the curse of passion, And that leads us to say much more and get into the weeds in a way that actually detracts.
So I love this idea of really focus on keeping it simple.
And you're right, the more people that you're communicating with, just because of the diversity of experience and knowledge, I do think you have to really focus on accessibility.
The larger the group.
And then this notion of repetition.
I also coach people.
You have to say it over and over again, not necessarily in exactly the same words.
Maybe you say it and then you give an example, you show a statistic, you use an image whatever, but you do really have to reinforce for people to understand.
And I like that test.
If people start teasing you for it, then you've probably done enough repetition.
And I think that's important.
You've written several books.
Your book, The CEO Test, outlines some critical challenges leaders face.
One of these is, can the leader really listen?
What advice do you have for leaders and for all of us really to better listen?
I think the first point is be aware that people may be coming to you, or probably coming to you, with side agendas, that they may not necessarily want to tell you, that there's a problem.
There's that famous expression about be careful about how your jokes become funny when you become a leader.
And people don't really want to go to the boss to bring them bad news.
So just this awareness that you're actually trapped in an information bubble.
And this is the contradiction to me of the CEO role, which is that you have access to more lines of communication than anybody else in the company.
But all of those lines are probably compromised in terms of the accuracy of the signal that you're getting.
So the first step is to be aware of that.
And then the second thing is to build up literally almost a listening infrastructure so that you could find out what's really going on in the company.
And that comes from making sure that you've got those confidants that are going to be straight with you.
When people do give you difficult news, that you thank them for it, so that word gets out, that you actually get points for telling the boss something they might not want to hear, rather than getting in trouble because that word spreads really quickly.
I often tell the story.
So the book I wrote, The CEO Test, was with Kevin Scherer, who was the former CEO of Amgen.
And he was very aware of this phenomenon.
And so on the annual employee survey.
The last question on the survey for everybody was the question what do you think of the job Kevin is doing?
And it was an open field.
People could do it anonymously or sign their name, basically saying like I need to know what you're thinking.
And he said he would gather all those and read them just to make sure that you're getting the straight feedback, because history is full of companies that got into trouble because people on the front lines knew there was a problem but nobody wanted to tell the bosses.
I really like this idea of reminding yourself being aware that there might be some other issue going on.
So what's the question behind the question?
What's the feedback behind the feedback?
And seeking that out, and not just paying attention to what is said but perhaps why it might be said in that way.
And I really like this notion of listening infrastructure.
So it's about having trusted others who can give you insight.
It's about rewarding people who do come forward.
I would add it's being specific in the type of information you want.
Often we don't ask specifically.
And when you ask for something specific, you are likely to get it versus a more general ask.
I appreciate that guidance and we can all make sure that we do that.
And I think another factor there and I'd love to get your opinion on this is demonstrating that you actually listened, not just thanking somebody for it, but maybe paraphrasing or delineating the action you're taking as a result.
Is that important as well?
Oh, for sure.
And to your point, it's not just I hear you, but I think the most powerful thing is thanking them for that and then acting on it.
Right.
Because, again, the word spreads very quickly in culture.
And if somebody has an experience where I went to the boss, gave him some tough news, they thanked me for it and they acted on it.
And now I've got like a gold star on my forehead because of that experience.
Like people go, I'm going to do that, too.
We talked a bit about simplifying complex information.
As somebody who's done what you do, as somebody who's written about this now, as somebody who consults on this, do you have specific advice and guidance frameworks for how you take something complex and make it easier and more simple for people to understand?
Do you have a tool that you recommend or use?
I don't have a simple tool, but I've had sort of two chapters in my career.
One is 30 years as a journalist, 15 years as a reporter where I was having to simplify complexity myself.
And then 15 years as an editor where I was having to help the reporters I worked with.
Simplify, complexity.
And now eight years in this consulting chapter, where again This skill of simplifying complexity is so important for leadership.
But just starting with clarity of what you want to say and what the message is, that's the hardest part.
And it might even be painful, just like staring at a blank piece of paper or blank screen and saying what is it that I'm saying and that I want to say and need to say, and doing that thinking work.
And then just understanding this simple thing about human nature, which is most people can't absorb or remember more than three or four things.
So, if you are going to distill it down and be tough with yourself because you talked about it earlier, the dangers of oversimplifying right
There is a sweet spot there of truly simplifying, but not oversimplifying.
I also sometimes think about how the word empathy has additional meanings that we typically talk about, because we usually talk about empathy.
It's like I understand what you're feeling, but I also think that we need to talk more about empathy as a component of communication.
Because to be an effective communicator whether it's a presenter or it's a writer you have to be able to get in the head of the audience and be able to see what you're saying or writing with fresh eyes and ask yourself is this clear to me?
Am I getting this?
Because usually people who aren't good writers or communicators or speakers, they lack that ability, right?
Like, you don't seem to be able to understand how the audience is not going to be able to process what you're saying.
So I think almost that forcing function of having that empathy, forcing yourself out of your own head because we're all trapped by our own context, our own expertise, and imagine somebody receiving this information for the first time and making sure that it's clear to them.
I mean in all my years of working with writers.
After they submitted their story, I would sometimes say to them you are suffering from the most noble disease of great journalists.
You are suffering from expertitis.
You are too close to this subject matter.
You know too much about it and you're having trouble resetting and getting in the head of somebody hitting it cold.
And I think that's another way of thinking about this empathy.
How do you take yourself out of your own expertise to see it through fresh eyes?
I love the term expertitis.
You know, when I do this work, I talk about the curse of knowledge and curse of passion.
And I say the only antidote is empathy and curiosity because those get you out of your head.
And I 100% agree with you that effective communication is not broadcasting.
Effective communication is making sure the other person understands what you meant.
And the only way to do that is to see it from their perspective.
So being audience centric is critical.
This notion of being tough on yourself to really force yourself to be clear is important.
And, starting with that bottom line, really thinking through what is the key essence of what I want to get across.
A lot of us start doing work before we really even understand what it is we're trying to say.
We discover that along the way.
And if we do that work up front, I think it just makes us more clear and concise.
And I appreciate you sharing that.
I have read a lot of your work and I've enjoyed your work over the many years.
And one of the things that I note that you do and I'd love to know if this is just innate and you don't think about it, or if it's strategic you do a very good job of getting people's attention early and building that curiosity and motivation to learn more.
That type of engagement up front, especially in a world where our attention is being pulled in lots of different directions, is really important.
How much of that is innate?
And can you walk us through a little bit of that?
Because it's clear when you look at your body of work that that's something you do very well.
So I started the Corner Office series at the New York Times.
It was a side project in addition to my day job managing reporters.
And it was based on a very simple what if.
I asked myself the question what if I sat down with CEOs and never asked them a single question about their companies?
And everything flows from that.
And for the last 15 years interviewing more than a thousand leaders, I stick to my swim lane of interviewing leaders about leadership and not about their companies.
Because most of the time when leaders are interviewed, they're interviewed as strategists, right?
Like, how does next quarter look, Bob?
And to me, I'm much more interested in how you lead, how you navigate the universal challenges of leadership.
And I think the more I've gotten into this, the more I'm just really intrigued with the humanity of leadership, because who you are is how you lead.
And when I was doing corner ops, I always started with the same few questions.
Tell me about when you were a kid, what were you doing outside of class?
Talk about your parents or whoever raised you and important early influences there.
Questions like that.
The world tends to talk about children as young adults.
And I think adults are just older children.
I'm always curious about those early stories because why do people want these jobs, right?
Like, yes, there's all these material rewards and stuff, but like being a CEO, nobody ever feels sorry for CEOs, but they're like really tough jobs.
They come with a huge tax on your personal lives and stress and strain and all that other stuff.
So why do people want these jobs?
And so I'm trying to ask questions that get at that.
The final point I'll make, Matt, is that I generally boil down my Q&As.
The transcript is often like 8,000, 9,000 words, and I'll boil it down to 12 words.
1500 words, whatever.
And early on I figured out the three things that to me are the most powerful currencies of leadership.
So when I'm condensing it, I'm always looking to keep three things.
One is an insight or lesson, right?
I learned this.
The second one is the story behind it, back to stories.
How did you learn this?
And the third one is, okay, spin that forward.
How did that insight, that lesson, how does that show up in your leadership style day to day?
I like that structure.
And I actually think that structure is useful for anything we're trying to communicate.
What is it that you're trying to say?
Why?
How'd you come to that?
And then how does it influence you?
I think that's a lovely structure.
And the bottom line answer to my question that I heard you say is the way you motivate people to pay attention to the things you write and the stories you tell is based on your curiosity.
And that curiosity comes through in what you do.
And curiosity is a very powerful engagement tool.
If you can get people to feel curious.
You know, in college I was a tour guide.
It was the highest paying job I could get.
And I learned so much about communication.
And what I learned is if I wanted my group to stay together and not wander off and leave and ultimately give poor ratings to the experience,
If I could build curiosity from where we've been to where we were going next, that changed the whole thing.
They wanted to move forward.
They were interested.
They asked more questions.
So being curious yourself, I think leads very nicely to communicating from a place of curiosity.
So I appreciate you saying that.
Yeah, I've learned so much from all the leaders I've interviewed.
I mean, life wisdom, not just leadership wisdom.
One of the most powerful things I heard from one leader was that and she was the university president her advice to students is basically just to go through life in the way that, at any moment, you could learn the most important lesson of your life.
This could be the moment where I learned the most important lesson of my life.
That is a very valuable lesson.
And I think we should all follow that for sure.
Well, Adam, before we end, I'd like to ask three questions of everyone.
One I make up for you and the other two I've been asking everybody as long as this series has been around.
Are you up for that?
Always.
All right.
From all of your years of interviewing leaders for your corner office column, what was the most surprising communication, insight or piece of advice you heard that fundamentally impacted you?
I think it's this idea of who you are is how you lead.
Because before I started doing all the interviews, I was trapped in that idea, like there's different leadership styles and what kind of leader are you, books about different leadership styles.
What I learned through interviewing all these leaders and hearing their stories and then seeing the direct line between okay, this is how I grew up and the important influences that really shaped me.
And that is how I lead.
I think a lot of people, when they move into new leadership roles, there's a sense of okay, what is going to be my style.
It's like... trying on different jackets to see if they're going to fit.
And so I always say to people like, who you are is how you lead.
Be self-aware about all the things that influence your leadership style and then be explicit about that with your team, right.
People.
They just want that sense of trust and vulnerability and authenticity, because people can smell it a mile away if you're not comfortable in your skin and you're trying to pretend to be somebody you're not.
So taking the time to really reflect on who you are, what's important to you, how you got to where you are, and then be very clear with others.
And that sets you up for connection and success for sure.
Question number two, and you have interviewed a lot of people and watched a lot of good communicators.
Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
So many, but I will tell you the story from the 1990s.
I was a business reporter at the New York Times, and I was covering the airline industry.
I spent a lot of time with a guy named Gordon Bethune who was charged with turning around Continental Airlines.
Continental Airlines at the time was truly a punchline.
It was just a terrible airline in really bad shape.
And Gordon came in, he assembled this amazing leadership team.
And the thing about Gordon he had this amazing ability to simplify complexity and just capture things in metaphors.
At that point, there was this big push to cut costs.
And he said, look, you can make a pizza so cheap that nobody will want to buy it.
And just that ability to create those sort of little visuals, like we can't just keep cost cutting.
He told me this one story about he was at an all hands and some of the pilots were like giving him a hard time about the direction.
And he basically shot back at them and said, look, the gateway is still attached to the plane.
You can get off the plane if you want.
But right now, this is my flight.
And basically said, put up or shut up.
And in those leadership moments I sometimes think of it as being a comedian dealing with hecklers right.
You have to know not to put people down, but you have to know what the quick comeback is, just to settle things.
In relying on metaphors and direct communication can really help.
Thank you for that.
Final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
The first one, be really clear about what you want to say.
Spend all the time, give yourself like 12 words, right?
Just as a forcing function.
What is it that I want to say?
So be clear of that.
Second is make sure you provide the context of why it's relevant and important.
You can't just assume that you have to put it in the broader frame.
And then third, keep it simple.
Whether you're talking or using a deck, I would say big fonts, short bullet points.
I always make the joke that nobody ever complained about too big fonts in PowerPoint decks.
I see way too many presentations at conferences where people clearly built the deck while they were on their laptop.
And then in a big hall, the person at the back of the room has to squint.
And then just sort of use the visuals and metaphors and stories to make it stick.
Absolutely.
So clarity context, so people understand the relevance, reduce that complexity and really make it compelling.
Through the stories you tell, the metaphors you use, the visuals you show.
Adam, this was absolutely compelling and interesting.
Thank you for the insights that you shared.
And I really appreciate your time decoding for us what makes for not just successful leaders, but successful communication.
Thank you.
That's great.
Thank you for the invite and for the great questions, Matt.
Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about leadership, please listen to episode 98 with David Dodson.
This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Ibrahims.
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