Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers.
And Bo and Yang, we've got some exciting news for you.
You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right?
Well this week we're taking it to the next level.
The one, the only, Catherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culturistas.
That's right, the queen of comedy herself.
Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful.
Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course the culture.
Don't miss Catherine Hahn on Lost Culturistas.
Listen to Lost Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Guess what Will? What's that, Mango?
I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part -Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults.
I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy.
We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food, and how do dollar stores make money, and then of course, can you game a dog show?
So what you're saying is everyone should be listening.
Listen to Part -Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Señora Sex -Ed is not your mommy's sex talk.
This show is la plática like you've never heard it before.
We're breaking the stigma and silence around sex and sexuality in Latinx communities.
This podcast is an intergenerational conversation between Latinas from Gen X to Gen Z.
We're your hosts, Vioza and Mala.
You might recognize us from our first show, Locatora Radio.
Listen to Señora Sex -Ed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
How do you feel about biscuits?
Hi, I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascots, the rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the biscuits.
I was a lady rebel, like what does that even mean?
No, no, no! It's right here in black and white in print, it's bigger.
It's bigger than a flag or mascot.
Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello, everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of your 20s.
So a few weeks ago, I got a DM from one of you, the listeners, about a really toxic workplace.
This listener, and she's given me permission to talk about her story.
She told me about how she had recently quit a job that she'd had for two years.
And she said to me this job felt more like a terrible relationship than a job, than a way of making money.
And she was telling me all these details about how her managers would call her after work hours to get her to respond to feedback.
They would ask her to work weekends to do the tasks that they were unable to do, saying that this was all part of her job description, this is what she signed up for.
And at the same time, she wasn't really getting any perks, she was getting paid very poorly.
They wouldn't invite her to any of like the workplace events, they would like criticize her openly in front of other employees, like terrible, terrible things.
And she quit that job three months ago.
And in that period of time, she's been looking for a new job, and she has found that, you know, even applying for new jobs, even looking through new job applications would make her anxious, going into job interviews would make her panic, would make her wanna cry, run away, escape.
And this all led her to believe that maybe her previous job had caused her like a degree of trauma and reading her messages.
I had to agree with her.
And I realized that there are probably a lot of other people going through this right now, and yet we haven't done an episode on how to deal with this situation, how to deal with a really toxic workplace.
We talk a lot on this podcast about finding your calling, how to accelerate at work, how to navigate career anxiety, but we haven't really spoken about what to do when you have a great job, you have maybe your dream job, you finally found a sustainable, secure profession.
And it turns out that the workplace that you've walked into is incredibly toxic.
Now you're kind of in that state where you're dreading going to work, your confidence is shattered.
You wanna quit, but you don't have the means, you don't know how, and this is exactly what I wanna discuss today.
It's something that a lot of us go through during the early days of our career, especially in our 20s, and how do we survive a terrible job?
But also not just how do we survive when we're currently in it, how do we move on from that experience and kind of find a job that respects you and that you love?
Work is a massive part of our identity, so when it's going wrong, it's hard for other things to not be going wrong as well.
I've had experiences like this and I'll share one of those experiences that I've had later on because it really can leave us to be quite broken for lack of a better word.
And there is also, of course, a lot of evidence for this being the case, and whilst there is a lot of evidence, there is little acknowledgement of that evidence.
So a lot of the time we might be in this situation thinking that we're overreacting, thinking that we're being dramatic, but time and time again we see studies, case studies, surveys, polls that show that a lot of people experience this during their lifetime, and also it impacts them greatly.
So we're gonna discuss all of that evidence and the psychology that links toxic workplaces to our psychology and our mental health, how to tell if your workplace is toxic, the different types of toxicity at a job, and also, of course, again, how to survive and how to thrive afterwards.
I have a number of tips to share.
I have a number of lived experiences to share as well.
So if you can relate to having a seriously traumatic former job, former boss, current job, current boss, current workplace, stay with us without further ado, let's get into toxic workplaces.
Experiencing a toxic workplace or a toxic work environment takes a huge and an unspoken toll on our mental wellbeing, and it really does actually surprise me how little we tend to discuss this fact.
We talk a lot about relationship trauma, friendship trauma, experiences with mental health or with physical illness, but work is also a significant pillar of our life.
But when we have a toxic relationship with our workplace or in a work environment, we don't really speak about how negatively formative it can be.
And that is not going well.
It begins to affect everything else.
But you kind of feel silly talking about it.
You feel silly having to explain it.
You know, everyone's job sucks.
No one likes to work, but I want to assure you right now, a toxic workplace does bring a certain kind of emotional experience, and it is not an easy thing to go through.
To really kind of, you know, examine and illustrate why that is, consider this recent statistic from Gettysburg College in the U .S.
This statistic suggests that you and I, we are probably going to spend around 90 ,000 hours at work across our lifetime.
That is about one third of our lives.
If one third of your waking hours were spent in a place where you didn't feel welcome, you were constantly stressed, you were under intense pressure or scrutiny, you were treated poorly, you are going to see that manifest in all other areas of your life.
But at the same time, there is this expectation that you should be able to detach.
If we just build up our lives enough beyond work, if we get a few hobbies, if we turn off our emails, you know, as soon as our shift ends or it hits five o 'clock, we should be successfully able to turn off completely and like shape shift back into the normal version of ourselves.
Most of us though know that is not true.
We know that it's very hard to have that separation because when you spend that much time in a job, a profession, an environment, it will ultimately influence your personality, your thoughts, your beliefs, even your sense of hope.
And it also becomes kind of like a defining feature of how other people identify you as well.
You know, what's the first question that you are inevitably going to be asked in a new social situation at basically every party, every social situation, every conference that you go to.
What do you do for work?
It is inescapable. This can create a psychological state that we know as enmeshment.
So enmeshment, this concept was originally used to describe codependency in families and especially in families where there was a lack of boundaries.
And it meant that there was kind of no way of separating, you know, a parent and a child or a sibling.
Everything was intertwined.
They did everything together.
They had all the same beliefs.
They had the same routine and their lives were enmeshed.
This can also happen with your job or with a workplace when a disproportionate amount of time is spent at work, is spent talking about work, is focused on your career, is spent with coworkers.
There needs to be a natural separation of some sort.
Otherwise, we do kind of end up tying everything back to our job.
And that's going to directly impact their self -worth and our self -worth.
It's important to remember that I think the current culture around work is very different to what it was a few years back.
It is very hard to disconnect.
Actually, in Australia, we just passed like right to disconnect laws, which basically means that if you don't answer your boss's text at 7pm, they like can't fire you.
They can't say anything about it, which is an amazing step forward.
But a lot of us will still check our work emails after 7pm on the weekends, because it's so much more accessible.
And I think because, I don't know, I just feel like previously our career was just the thing that we did to make money.
Now there's a lot more glory to it.
It's the thing that you can brag about.
It's this thing that identifies you.
It's this thing that others use to kind of place you in their life.
This is all basically a long way of saying that, work is such a huge part of who you are.
And more so the further along you get into this decade.
It's a very common experience that as you age, the circles that represent friends, play, socializing, hobbies, free time, leisure, those circles get a lot smaller, and the circles representing work, responsibility, career, they get larger.
And sorry, one more point on this as well.
When you are in the early stages of your career, you wanna do everything right and you wanna be good, and you wanna be praised and you wanna be promoted.
You're also probably the least experienced.
You don't have as much knowledge.
And that can again also lead to a real hustle culture mentality of like, I have to be the one staying late.
I have to be the one who never makes mistakes.
I have to put up with whatever is thrown my way, including a toxic culture or a bad work environment because everyone has done it before me.
This is just how it is.
This is what is expected.
I can't say anything.
I cannot say anything because all jobs are like this.
I just have to put up with it.
And in those circumstances, you have to take very special care of your wellbeing.
I wanna kind of tell you a story of my worst job.
I wanna tell you a story of my most toxic workplace.
So the worst job I have ever worked by far was back when I was at university in Canberra, and I worked at a restaurant, and I'm not going home and said the name.
I'm not gonna say the name, but it was a steak restaurant and it was very expensive.
So a lot of like CEOs and government people and people in town for work who wanted to like spend big on a meal would come to this restaurant.
And it looked very lovely from the outside.
It looked very like designer luxury, but behind the scenes, it was just awful.
It was a walking HR disaster.
There were like three things that made it really, really terrible.
Firstly, there was a group of people, group of women who had worked there for like years, some of them for like five years, super clicky, and they were all like managers and supervisors and they were all friends and they would go on holiday together.
They were honestly just horrific.
So new people would start like myself and they would kind of almost, oh, they also lived together.
I remember that being part of it.
Some of them lived in the same house and you would start and they would like vet you to just see if you were like one of them.
And if even one of them didn't like you, they didn't think that you were like working hard enough or you weren't going to like pick up their ships or do whatever they said, they would make your life awful.
I remember one time getting yelled at by one of the senior girls who worked there for coming into work and immediately making myself a glass of water because I used to ride my bike all the way from like uni and it would be really, really hot in the summertime and I would have to wear this black outfit
and I'd ride my bike from uni to work and I would make myself a glass of water, make myself a drink glass of water.
And she was like, you are incredibly entitled.
You don't even have your apron on.
You haven't even like clocked in yet.
And it was just that kind of stuff.
Like they wanted to make your life difficult and like during the busy period all the junior staff would be working and they would be like out the back gossiping.
So that was the first component was the click.
Then there was the boss and I cannot even begin to tell you how much I dislike this man and the dread I would have when working with him alone.
And he would like deliberately try and make you uncomfortable as a joke and like you'd be scheduled to finish at nine but if you did just one small thing to annoy him or like, you know, you wouldn't laugh at his joke he'd make you stay until 11 just with him.
Just you and him in this like one restaurant and he would make you wipe down everything again and again and again and then make you go down in the elevator with him and make these like disgusting jokes whilst no one was like there.
He was so gross. He was so gross.
And he would yell at you.
He would pretend to trip you.
And when we were closed he'd like bring all of his buddies to get drunk and you would have to stay on shift to like serve them free alcohol otherwise you would get fired.
And you know, oh my God.
So I'm going on about this man but he is a terrible man and I remember for years afterwards if I thought I would see him I would like, I would be scared.
You know those people you just look at and like there's nothing behind the eyes.
That was it. And then finally they were just the customers.
You know, they were so rude and I think that they definitely expected a lot from their experience because they were paying for the experience.
But the kitchen was understaffed.
We were often down three people because all the senior people would be in the break room and our boss was like never going to stand up for us.
And that time was so terrible for me because every night I would go to work and I would get paid not very much.
And I would just cry before I had to ride my bike over and I wanted to quit so badly and I would get anxious walking through the door.
Everyone was so on edge.
So there wasn't even like a camaraderie or a friendship that could sustain you when it got bad.
And I was like in my early twenties at the time.
So it just felt like, you know this is something I have to tolerate.
I have to just take it because I'm trying to finish my degree.
And you know, I was just like getting sick.
Sick with worry about going to work and thinking that this was like everything to me.
This job, like I'd be thinking about like something, some mistake I did and how I could fix that like the next day and like all these things.
And it just took such a significant toll.
And in hindsight, you know, I still have nightmares.
I, oh my God, remembering this.
I had a nightmare last night about this colleague who I worked with.
And that was like, how many years ago?
Seven, six, seven years ago.
And she was like following me around my house.
Like that was literally a dream I had about her last night.
I was so scared, like not outside the dream but back at the job to quit.
And on my last shift, I called in sick actually which I think it was like one of three times I've ever done that.
And then I blocked all of their numbers and all of their Facebook profiles because that was how they used to like talk to us back then.
And I just was like, I'm never gonna I don't want to interact with you ever again.
And I know that I'm not the only one who has had this experience.
This is just one example, a hospitality example, right?
And I think my experience, the toxicity came from the people.
There was this level of harassment and bullying and intimidation that takes an emotional toll specifically because it has to do with an underlying sense of security.
And I would even say safety when I was there and the uncertainty that each shift would, you know bring something new and not in a fun way but in like a destructive anxiety inducing way.
I don't think anyone who worked at this restaurant at the time was like having a good time.
And interestingly, I actually read a study the other day that was conducted in China back in 2021.
And what the study said was that when a workplace in general, when the culture is toxic the feeling becomes toxic amongst the coworkers and it means that they are more likely to ostracize, bully, be quite cruel, because they themselves feel like they have so little control and they are so dissatisfied.
That is often the root of workplace bullying and workplace intimidation and just meanness and cruelty is that these individuals recognize that they're actually not happy themselves but there's this like sadistic need to see that unhappiness reflected back in someone else.
And this can extend all the way from the top.
And I mean like your bosses, you know they start to feel this shift as well.
And they start to act in a way that's just like very unkind and you don't feel respected you don't feel like you can speak up you feel completely stuck.
This really links back to me towards a theme or a lack of respect.
And that also extends to other kinds of workplaces you know, not just hospitality jobs but corporate jobs where people don't respect your boundaries they ask you to work when you know you can't they assign you things that you just don't have the skills or the capacity to do and then they criticize you
that make you feel small.
That is a very hard thing to go through and still maintain your sense of self -esteem.
You know, I've heard from a lot of people whose biggest complaint about their toxic workplace has been the unreasonable workload and the expectations that made them feel like they were on a constant treadmill and this treadmill was getting faster and faster.
And I would categorize a boss that does this as using fear -based leadership pushing people to their limits out of a fear of repercussion you know, getting fired, being humiliated, being criticized rather than giving people space to expand.
It's all about consequences rather than growth.
That treadmill I'm speaking about that puts us into a hyper aroused and stressed elevated state because you are essentially running on cortisol and adrenaline.
If you've ever wondered why after you go through a super stressful busy period at work or at school, you immediately get sick that is why your body requires mental and of course, physical rest to switch off to restore to pleaded reserves and more importantly to calm down that stress response because that stress
response is incredibly harsh on our bodies.
When we aren't given that chance it weakens our immune system.
It makes us worse at fighting illnesses or more susceptible to certain diseases, certain sicknesses.
So it's not just that this is having a mental consequence you are going to also see a physical result of this bad environment.
Then there is, you know, overworking as well which feels very similar to the above, right?
This culture of like you need to give this company everything you need to be on a hundred percent of the time.
There tends to be a belief that overworking and to an extent burnout is an occupational hazard of some jobs.
The same way that you know, you're more likely to be injured working in a mine or doing something dangerous like working on an oil rig and you accept that that is part of the role.
If you're a doctor, a lawyer, a nurse over time and burnout just, you know, you just have to accept that but that is also becoming the norm for almost all jobs these days and I'm not talking about staying 30 minutes to finish off your emails but late nights, working weekends without being compensated,
without getting support.
The biggest contributor to burnout according to the University of California Berkeley the biggest number one thing is overworking and excessive workload.
And they have even made the claim which I think we should take with a grain of salt but the University of California probably knows more than me they've made the claim that burnout is contributing to the deaths of millions of people each year because of its all round negative impact on your health.
You know, I want to say this, not to scare you but to remind you that you are not being dramatic if you find yourself completely depleted by the expectation to work long hours and the inability to say no because you are a junior because this is how it's always been done.
I'm gonna take a short break but when we return I wanna talk about some of the further consequences of that for all elements of our health.
Hey everybody this is Matt Rogers.
And Bowen Yang, we've got some exciting news for you.
You know we're always bringing you the best guest, right?
Well this week we're taking it to the next level.
The one, the only, Katherine Hahn is joining us on Last Culturisthes.
That's right, the queen of comedy herself.
Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful.
Tune in for all the laughs, the stories and of course the culture.
I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you.
Oh my god, I would love it.
I have to watch Lost.
Oh you have to. No I know, I'm so behind.
Katherine Hahn can sing.
I'm really good at karaoke.
And what's your song?
Yeah what's your song?
Oh I love a ballad.
I felt Bjork's music.
I just was like who is this person?
I gotta hawk this slalom movie.
Not hawk the slalom, I absolutely love it.
It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it.
It was somehow gorgeous.
Yea, must suck your hollum.
Listen to Lost Culturisthes on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
When you think of Mexican culture, you think of avocado, mariachi, delicious cuisine and of course, Lucha Libre.
It doesn't get more Mexican than this.
Lucha Libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment.
Lucha Libre is a type of storytelling, it's a dance.
Its tradition is culture.
This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12 episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and culture richness of Lucha Libre.
And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, the emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar.
Santos! Santos! Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport, from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture.
We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring.
This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask.
Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask as part of my Cultura podcast network on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you stream podcasts.
Hello everyone, I am Lacey Lamar.
And I'm Amber Ruffin, a better Lacey Lamar, boo.
Okay, everybody, we have exciting news to share.
We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network.
You thought you had fun last season?
Well, you were right.
And you should tune in today for new fun segments like Sister Court and listening to Lacey's Steamy DMs.
We've got new and exciting guests like Michael Beach.
That's my husband, Daphne Spring, Daniel Thrasher, Peppermint, Morgan J and more.
You gotta watch us.
No, you mean you have to listen to us.
I mean, you can still watch us, but you gotta listen.
Like if you're watching us, you have to tell us.
Like if you're out the window, you have to say, hey, I'm watching you outside of the window.
Just, you know what, listen to the Amber and Lacey Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
How do you feel about biscuits?
Hi, I'm Akila Hughes.
And I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the biscuits.
I was a lady rebel.
Like, what does that even mean?
The Boone County rebels will stay the Boone County rebels, but the image.
It's right here in black and white in France.
They lying. An individual that came to the school saying that God sent him to talk to me about the mascot switch.
As a leader, you choose hills that you want to die on.
Why would we want to be the losing team?
I just take all the other stuff out of home.
Segregation academies.
When the civil rights said that we need to integrate public schools, these charter schools were exempt from this.
Bigger than a flag or mascot.
You have to be ready for serious backlash.
Listen to rebel spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Whether it's excessive workload, bullying, intimidation, micromanagement, poor communication, bad culture, all forms of toxic workplaces leave their mark.
And you don't even have to have been there for a long time for that to be the case.
According to the American Psychological Association, when we encounter these environments, it can lead employees, that means you and I, to become, and this is their words, sick, scared, and to look for ways to quit.
They also consistently report about 65 % of the people they spoke to, that their mental wellbeing declines during these periods.
Toxic workplaces take excitement, they take our energy, they take our willingness and our desire to do well, and they turn it into fear.
And they turn it into fear because we need money and we need a job to survive.
So when that is not going well, every other element of our lives feels threatened.
You know, we've already spoken about that cost when it comes to burnout, but burnout is more than just one feeling.
It actually develops in 12 stages.
So the term burnout was created, discovered, I don't know, initiated, whatever you want to say, by the psychologist Herbert Freudenberg.
And in his initial theory, back in the day, he suggests that we often don't even notice burnout until we get to the final few stages.
So stage 10, 11, and 12.
And this is the time when we really feel it.
We are sick, we are tired all the time, we are confused, unable to regulate our anxiety.
It's in a downward spiral that we're heading.
But it actually begins a lot earlier and it begins with things that we would see as positive, excessive ambition, trying to meet the expectations or fit into the environment.
It's like a toxic relationship where we think we are in the wrong and we try to fix ourselves by working harder only to eventually realize, you know, it was actually never me.
It was always this other party.
The early stages of burnout also include trying to put more on your plate, neglecting basic needs or chores, just saying I'm too busy for that, feeling like you don't have enough time in your day, withdrawing from friends, finding that there is conflict in other areas of your life as well, with your
partner, with your roommates, with your friends.
And then the emptiness sets in.
And it may only be when we are in this final state and we're looking back at the last few weeks, we're looking back at the last months, and we think, oh, oh my goodness, this has been coming for a long time.
You know, hindsight is often the first time that we notice this pattern.
And this is what can lead us to the dark, dark path of chronic burnout or a burnout cycle.
So if you are someone who finds that they get burnt out, like every three to four months, maybe, like clockwork, but, you know, then you feel a little bit better a couple of weeks in.
So you put everything back on your plate and you try to adapt and then, you know, you feel burnt out again.
You're not going through different cycle, different like stages of burnout because you're actually not even recovering.
You've probably never even escaped the burnout to begin with.
You've just gone back to an earlier stage.
You are in the burnout cycle.
And that cycle involves momentary recovery met by escalation.
People in overwhelming or toxic workplaces are more likely to report this kind of experience.
And sometimes it can last years.
Toxic workplaces can even at times create PTSD or lasting trauma after you have left that environment.
A friend of my dad's actually had such a traumatic experience at a job, you know, it was like 10 years ago.
And he has never been able to recover from that.
On a smaller scale, I had a friend who just recently got out of this terrible job, maybe like six months ago, and oh my goodness, I just hated her boss.
Never met her boss, hated him.
He would single her out.
He had such, he was just mean.
He just obviously did not like her for whatever reason.
And he made it very known.
And then one day he just made her redundant out of the blue.
After that, of course, you know, it really echoes that story we said before, she had to find a new job.
And it was so interesting yet quite sad to watch her, you know, apply for jobs and to watch her just struggle and struggle and struggle and feel like she wasn't qualified.
She wasn't confident enough because her expectations for herself had sunk to his level and left a mark on her self worth.
And you know, the more we care about someone's opinion because they are in a position of authority or we rely on their good opinion for our future, the more weight we put on it, the more a negative opinion can really scar us.
It didn't matter what we said, her friends said, you know, didn't matter that we thought she was talented, skillful, charismatic.
Her inner critic had taken her boss's words and spoken them back to her in her own voice.
So what do we do to heal from these situations?
You know, unless you are suddenly a millionaire, which congratulations, please let me know if that's the case.
Congrats. But unless that is your case, you know, we need to work.
You can't always just quit a secure job, even if you want to, even if you're really struggling.
That's why toxic workplaces have their own place in hell.
I also think that, you know, having a job is also an important part of our purpose, our identity.
So you want to have a positive environment that you can thrive in, that you can achieve your goals in.
So what do we do to kind of cope in a situation where that's not the case, and how do we cope afterwards?
One of the best things that a friend of mine has ever said to me ever is if someone treats you badly, they are not going to treat you any better, the harder you work.
And that left me gobsmacked.
Because I think about my toxic jobs, I only spoke about one, but there have been others.
And I think about them and I think about how the whole time I was the one pushing myself to fit in.
I was working so hard, thinking that I was the problem when actually it was the environment that was the common denominator amongst not just my experience, but many others.
In many ways, and I've said it before, but a toxic workplace and a toxic relationship, like share a lot of traits, they make you doubt your own self worth, they make you feel like you are the problem, they make it hard to leave, they blame you, they tear you down, they're of course different as well.
But I think when you consider it in this way, you begin to realize that you deserve more.
Your job is actually just as important in some ways as the relationship that you choose.
And the same way that you deserve the absolute best from a partner, from a friend, you deserve the absolute best from a workplace.
I think with toxic jobs, this is not a matter of trying to convince someone to be nicer, to fix their attitude problem for you.
It's not a matter of trying to convince a workplace to overhaul their culture.
It is a situation where you know, they've probably been asked before and they wouldn't do it.
You are not the first person to suffer and not the first person with these problems.
So whilst you are in it, your main goal is to, and I know it might sound quite selfish, but it's to seriously just get through it.
Put your head down and get through it because you cannot bear the burden of a disorganized and toxic environment.
My first big tip is to take control of what you can and find value outside of work.
Make it a mission to have fun, to do things you enjoy, to put joy and excitement back into the hours that you're not in the workplace.
There is definitely an inclination when we're going through this experience to come home and just be, first of all, you're exhausted, you're emotionally burnt out.
And obviously the reaction to that is just to rest and is to lie still and is to just like enter a catatonic state.
I get that feeling and I get that urge.
I want you to treat that as the first option and then to explore the second option.
And the second option is to, almost in defiance, say I'm not gonna let this shitty job ruin my life.
I'm not gonna let this shitty job mean that I cannot experience great beauty and excitement and fun and passion and all the best feelings beyond this environment.
So you cannot control how a boss treats you.
You cannot control how a workplace values you, but you can control what you do before you go to bed.
You can control the hours before you go to work where you drive to the beach, you watch the sunrise, you get coffee, early morning coffee with a friend, you go to the movies after work instead of just coming home and sitting back on the couch.
Fill those hours that you can control with the life.
I also would really suggest to limit your emotional investment in your job by doing something that we call acting your wage.
Obviously it's a play on words, act your age, act your wage.
You know, if someone is, as much as you can, if someone is not paying you for the extra effort, they're not appreciating you for the extra effort, don't do it.
Do not do it. You might think that this is counterintuitive.
You might be like, no, I want to get ahead in my career.
I understand that, but is this the place in which your effort is going to be most recognised?
Or could you take that effort and that time that you're spent trying to impress your terrible boss, trying to impress your terrible co -workers, and could you put it towards having an extra hour to apply for new jobs, having an extra hour to practise self -care, having an extra hour to call a friend or to
call your mum instead of feeling like your life is just this job.
It's hard to detach when you're in it, but I want you to be, to really be reminded that your job does not care about you all that much.
There are certain people within an organisation or within your workplace that might care about you, but as a whole, it's a company, it's an organisation.
It's something that has a mission that isn't to do with you, and I know it sounds quite pessimistic, but if you were to leave tomorrow, they would find a replacement.
And so do not treat this like a family.
Do not treat it like it's this giving friendship and let them guilt you into staying.
This is a job you are entitled to act your wage.
And oh, my goodness, please take a sick day when you can.
This was something that I wish, wish, wish I had done when I was working full -time at my corporate job.
I had so much sick leave by the time I left.
And you've got to remember that sick leave, you have been, that you've paid for those days, right?
That is money that they have not paid you, which they have kept for themselves.
And if you leave, and maybe this is just in Australia, but if you leave, they get to keep the money that they have deducted from your paycheck for the days that you need to call in sick.
So please take a sick day.
This is just a job.
I promise you that in 10 years' time, or after you quit, you, one of the big things, one of my big regrets is, oh my God, I wish I'd actually taken a mental health day when I needed it.
I wish that I had taken care of my emotions.
I also think that if you are in a unique environment in which the main problem is criticism, the main problem is being shut down, not being appreciated, it's not being congratulated or being quite bored, not feeling challenged.
Try and provide some self -congratulation.
So, self -reinforcement is one of the most valuable psychological tools I've ever learned, self -approval, actually congratulating yourself, celebrating yourself, especially when you're in an environment where you're like, I don't think that these people are going to do that for me.
Some of the reasons that, one of the big reasons that we become quite burdened by a negative work environment is we begin to expect that our validation needs to come from our employer because our career is a core pillar of our identity.
And we don't really know where to search without validation beyond the workplace.
And I'm gonna make a caveat here, this is especially the case of you are quite a high achiever.
You are very, you know, a good student, you are an A student, you were, you know, just excelling, you're a gifted child, you were used to praise.
You like praise, you like to be congratulated and when you don't have that, it feels like you're quite worthless.
So try and get into the habit of being like, I'm really proud that I got all of that done today.
I'm really proud that I tried really hard.
I'm really proud of the extra effort that I put in to this thing for me.
I'm really proud of my work.
You don't need to be reliant on someone else to tell you that you've done a good job if you know you've done a good job.
Now, this final tip actually came from my friend who I was speaking about who was made redundant a few months back.
And while she was in that terrible, terrible job, she said the one really amazing thing that worked for her was having an exit strategy.
So the exit strategy is basically a timeline that you have for when you wanna quit.
It's quite unreasonable to be in a toxic workplace for a lot of us and to be like, I'm just gonna quit tomorrow because we need money to survive.
And that's I think what contributes to us feeling quite trapped is a sense of almost dependency on this thing that we hate.
We're dependent on this terrible boss, this terrible job.
You need to start looking to the future and creating that timeline for leaving.
So a timeline for leaving is not just like an immediate goal of getting a new job, it's a structured way of thinking about how you're going to get there and how you break it down and if you've listened to our episode on five ways to reinvent yourself in your 20s, you'll have heard this strategy.
The way to do it is to break your goals down, your goal being to leave into one day, one week, one month, six month goals.
So the six month goal is to be out of there, but the one month goal is to have a few job interviews lined up.
The one week goal is to apply for five different jobs a week.
And the one day goal is to be filling out your resume, to be thinking about who could be your references, to be taking five minutes to just search through jobs and bookmarking them for later.
You need to have a sense of, okay, there is an end in sight, I'm going to actively start working towards leaving this workplace and you'll find that suddenly it becomes a lot easier to detach.
You can start like to give less fucks, sorry to swear, but seriously, it's when you start to just be like, this actually is a job because I can see what else is out there and you're not in this toxic relationship lined to what is better.
All right, we're going to take another short break, but when we come back, I want to talk about the strategies that you can use in the aftermath.
Even after we leave a toxic, awful, terrible environment, sometimes the emotional impact lingers.
So we're going to talk about how to heal from that and much, much more after this short break.
Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers.
And Bo and Yang, we've got some exciting news for you.
You know, we're always bringing you the best guests, right?
Well, this week we're taking it to the next level.
The one, the only, Catherine Han is joining us on Last Culturisthes.
That's right, the queen of comedy herself.
Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful.
Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.
I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you.
Oh my God, I would love it.
I have to watch Lost.
Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind.
Catherine Han can sing.
I'm really good at karaoke.
And what's your song?
Yeah, what's your song?
Oh, I love a ballad.
I felt Bjork's music and I just was like, who is this person?
I got to hock this slalom, Libby.
I'm not hock this slalom.
I absolutely love it.
It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it.
It was somehow gorgeous.
Yee, ma, fuck ya, Harlem.
Listen to Last Culturisthes on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio App, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
When you think of Mexican culture, you think of avocado, mariachi, delicious cuisine, and of course, lucha libre.
It doesn't get more Mexican than this.
Lucha libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment.
Lucha libre is a type of storytelling.
It's a dance. Its tradition is culture.
This is Lucha libre Behind the Mask, a 12 episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of lucha libre.
And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, the emperor of lucha libre and a WWE superstar.
Santos! Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture.
We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring.
This is Lucha libre Behind the Mask.
Listen to Lucha libre Behind the Mask as part of my Cultura podcast network on the iHeartRadio App, Apple podcasts, or wherever you stream podcasts.
Hello, everyone. I am Lacey Lamar.
And I'm Amber Ruffin.
A better Lacey Lamar.
Boo. Okay, everybody.
We have exciting news to share.
We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network.
You thought you had fun last season.
Well, you were right.
And you should tune in today for new fun segments like Sister Court and Listening to Lacey's Steamy DMs.
We've got new and exciting guests like Michael Beach, that's my husband, Daphne Spring, Daniel Thrasher, Peppermint, Morgan Jay, and more.
You gotta watch us.
No, you mean you have to listen to us.
I mean, you can still watch us, but you gotta listen.
Like if you're watching us, you have to tell us.
Like if you're out the window, you have to say, hey, I'm watching you outside of the window.
Just, you know what?
Listen to the Amber and Lacey Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio App, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
How do you feel about biscuits?
Hi, I'm Akila Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the Rebels, into something everyone in the south loves, the biscuits.
I was a lady rebel.
Like, what does that even mean?
The Boone County Rebels will stay the Boone County Rebels, but the image of a biscuit.
It's right here in black and white in print, a lion.
An individual that came to the school saying that God sent him to talk to me about the mascot switch is a leader who chooses hills that he wanna die on.
Why would we wanna be the losing team?
I just take all the other stuff out of it.
Segregation academies, when civil rights said that we need to integrate public schools, these charter schools were exempt from that.
Bigger than a flag or mascot.
You have to be ready for serious backlash.
Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Recovering from any situation that has perhaps brought you trauma, emotional turmoil, emotional conflict, really involves finding closure.
As humans, we like things to have a neat storybook ending.
We like to be able to put a memory away and say, that makes sense.
That makes sense that I had to go through that.
That makes sense as to why that happened.
And I can move on from that now.
When we go through things that are very much out of our control or quite turbulent and hurtful, it's very hard to find that conclusion.
It's very hard to also find a sense of meaning, often because there isn't any.
There is no meaning behind you having to experience a toxic workplace.
It's just an unnecessary trauma.
So instead, you need to find that closure for yourself.
You can't necessarily go to your bad boss or your bad colleague and say, why did you treat me that way?
Why were you so cruel to me?
You can't go and talk to the CEO of your company and say, why did you pay me so little?
Why did you disregard my needs?
Instead, you need to find that cognitive closure for yourself that's going to allow you to transition away from what's finished to something new.
The easiest way to do that is to acknowledge the impact, is to acknowledge, yeah, I did go through that.
And that was really, really difficult.
And even if this is a disenfranchised trauma, so kind of a trauma that other people don't understand, even if it's not on people's list of what's serious, to me it was, and it impacted me.
And it was really hard.
And I'm allowed to feel sorry for myself.
I'm allowed to feel sad about it.
And then I need to move on.
Another thing that's important here is, sometimes when we have been in that environment, we have almost been gaslit into feeling like it's normal.
We've been gaslit into feeling like we were the problem, as I said before, we've been gaslit into being like, no, I'm just going to shake this off.
This was just a bit over dramatic on my behalf.
So you need to find evidence and collect evidence from other people, people you trust, that you can believe your experience.
So talk to your friends, talk to your family who spoke to you through that time and say, hey, I am kind of doubting whether it was really that bad.
And they will look you in the eye and say, no, that was terrible.
What you were experiencing was objectively awful.
You had every right to leave, you had every right to walk away.
Because again, sometimes we are in that environment and we almost become indoctrinated.
I feel like there are quite a few companies that are quite cult -like in this way.
I think about BuzzFeed, flash throwback from the past.
But remember when BuzzFeed was a huge thing and then afterwards all these people came out and were like, I thought it was the best job ever, but it was actually incredibly taxing and awful.
Sometimes when you're in an environment, the only thing and the only way to get through is to kind of put a positive spin on things and to glamorize.
If your brain and if you were fully conscious of how terrible the experience was, you wouldn't have been able to cope.
So we put up walls, we compartmentalize to survive.
So make sure that you understand that your reaction was valid, your reaction was also completely appropriate by getting objective people in your life to confirm that for you.
Moving forward, and I will caveat this by saying, it's not your fault that a workplace or a job was toxic, you did not deserve it, but try and be picky from now on if you can.
Notice the warning signs of when a job might adopt a certain culture that is unfriendly.
The big warning signs are when they are immediately, like in a job application or even in an interview, unwilling to compromise on anything.
They're inflexible about salary, they're inflexible about hours, they're inflexible about working from home.
When they call themselves a family, when honestly you trust your intuition, like when you walk into the building or you have the interview and they feel quite disinterested in you or you feel like they can't, you know, the people that are interviewing you themselves have only been there for a little
while, that really indicates high turnover.
Start to be picky with the job that you choose and I know that this is a luxury.
If you can afford to take a little bit of time to really try and secure a job that you really, really like through networking or through anything, I think it pays off in the long run and it pays off because, you know, you don't have to feel like you've been forced into another job that's the same experience
and that's the same vibe and the same environment and then six months later you're back in the same spot.
It's not always available to everyone but I do think when we exit one job or one career or one environment, it is a really good opportunity to reflect on what we want from work and to really rethink our values when it comes to work, rethink the balance that we would like to strike, especially if you
have a redundancy, right?
That's a gift. So a few times in our lives, in our working lives, do we have period of months where we can actually just exist and not have to work and can travel or could take a little bit more time.
So embrace that luxury, embrace that experience and then just take a rest if you can.
Take a rest, recover, talk to your friends, spend more time with yourself, building back up that identity that maybe you have lost throughout this experience.
I think that that is all I have for you guys today.
I think that those are all my best tips for handling a toxic workplace.
I'm honestly quite sorry if you can relate to this.
I know it is very, very difficult but you're not being dramatic, you're not overreacting.
I hope I don't need to say that anymore than I already have, but it is a really difficult thing to go through because work is such a foundational part of who we are in this day and age.
So it's okay, take care of yourself.
You will find a better job.
You will find a better workplace and this will pass.
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you are following along.
For future episodes, we also have a bunch of episodes around finding a job in your 20s, career anxiety in your 20s, how to find your calling if that's a follow up episode that might be helpful.
Make sure that you're following us on Instagram as well at that psychology podcast and message.
If you have any feedback, if you have any thoughts on this episode, if you've had an experience yourself, we would love to hear from you and leave a review.
If you feel caught to do so, make sure you're following along, leave a review.
It makes our day. I really hope that this has helped you through what you're going through.
Until next time, remember to be kind, be safe, be gentle to yourself and we will talk very, very soon.
Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers.
And Bowen Yang, we've got some exciting news for you.
You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right?
Well, this week we're taking it to the next level.
The one, the only Catherine Hahn is joining us on Last Culturisthes.
That's right, the queen of comedy herself.
Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful.
Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture.
Don't miss Catherine Hahn on Last Culturisthes.
Listen to Last Culturisthes on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Guess what, Will? What's up, Mango?
I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part -Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults.
I mean, we did just cover the illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy.
We also solve mysteries, like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money, and then of course, can you game a dog show.
So what you're saying is everyone should be listening.
Listen to Part -Time Genius on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Señora Sex -Ed is not your mommy's sex talk.
This show is la plática like you've never heard it before.
We're breaking the stigma and silence around sex and sexuality in Latinx communities.
This podcast is an intergenerational conversation between Latinas from Gen X to Gen Z.
We're your hosts, Viosa and Mala.
You might recognize us from our first show, Locatora Radio.
Listen to Señora Sex -Ed on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast, Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America.
I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring the three -pound universe in our heads.
Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life because the more we know about what's running under the hood, better we can steer our lives.
Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
