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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our
20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast, new listeners,
old listeners, wherever you are in the world.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the
psychology of our 20s.
A subject I'd like to talk about a lot is agency and the fact that I think in about 80% of
instances in our lives we get to control our reality and what we're experiencing.
I think so much about how we operate and how we function, our daily lives is actually
within our power but a lot of us choose to live quite passively and we let things happen
to us rather than actively choosing who we are, our outlook, our experiences, our
behaviors, who we spend time with.
We say it all the time on the podcast but I think sometimes the easiest and most convenient
choice is not always the best for you and this is especially important to recognize in
our 20s when we are at such a formative juncture and in the midst of really deciding what we
want long term, what we want with our careers, with our health, with our finances.
I don't think that we can actually afford to be passive.
It doesn't mean that we have to be constantly finding for the next big thing and overworking
ourselves.
We don't always have to be focused on achievement but I think more so that we need some kind
of structure to how we think about our future but also about our present and what kind of
life we are creating for ourselves.
I thought who better to bring on for this episode than the wonderful hosts of Girls With
Goals to have kind of a discussion and informative conversation on how not to be passive when
it comes to creating a happy and fulfilling life.
So Carolyn and Catherine, welcome to the show.
Hi, thank you so much for having us.
I'm Carolyn.
I'm in Catherine.
We are twin sisters.
We're based in Boston in the US and we host the show Girls With Goals.
We talk so much on our show about health and wellness but mostly in the sense of how it
fits into our lifestyles and ultimately building your own most confident life.
However, that's going to look and every topic we dive into is something that we're actively
navigating at the same time and I think figuring out how to have that right balance of control
over your lives while at the same time being kind of trusting in the path and not trying
to get too overwhelmed with the control is something that we're always working to figure
out.
So I think hopefully we'll be able to come and bring some good advice on how to stop
being passive in your life and take more control without it being too overwhelming of a
feat to take on.
Yeah, I love the word control in a good way is what we're getting at here.
Control is in the power of your life, which I think is really important when we're talking
about whether or not you're living passively.
So we love, like Caroline said, this is a time that we're navigating actively ourselves
and that's what we talk about.
So we're working on trying not to be passive or being aware of that and knowing how to
be confident within that and actively work towards moving away from passable life and taking
more control and feeling empowered in our lives is what we talk about all the time.
So this is a really great episode.
Thank you so much for having us.
Absolutely.
Well, I feel like that's something I really admire about you guys.
Firstly, you're in your 20s, which I think is like obviously a psychology of your 20s.
Like I like talking to people who also kind of get it, but I really admire how you're
both like quite intentional in how you live, right?
You really like prioritize the good parts of life as much as you can, even when it's
difficult.
Like you guys are full-time students.
You're running your own businesses.
When it comes to that, what do you think it means to be intentional, especially when
we have like so many other things on our plate that can make it really difficult to focus
on bringing.
Like I feel like being intentional sometimes gets compared to putting in more effort, right?
And having to give more energy when you don't actually have it.
But what does it mean for you guys?
Yeah, it's definitely not just straight up putting in more energy.
And I think we've all been there where that is our default because it's the simplest,
seemingly simplest solution before you actually, you know, try out some solutions.
It's kind of our, our default, our go-to.
If things aren't working out or they're not working out as you want them to, just throw
more effort in.
Like do more things, work harder, not the answer all the time because that almost pushes
you further into that, you know, passiveness.
Anytime I felt like I'm in a state of passiveness, passiveness.
First of all, I don't realize it until like a month or two or even more down the line.
And I'm like, oh my god, I've been living on autopilot.
Like I couldn't even tell you what happened these past four months.
But having the, you know, ability to acknowledge that and pull yourself out of that is a really
intentional thing.
And it's not to say that you're never going to have times of feeling passive or, you know,
that you have to throw yourself an autopilot.
But when you do notice it, being able to, you know, pull yourself out of it.
And sometimes that means not throwing more gas on the fire, but taking a step back and
going back to those foundations.
And so knowing that there are a bunch of different options and that maybe not putting all your
effort in, and losing all of your steam and absolutely burning out is the best answer.
Sometimes it's taking a step back and going back to your, you know, foundations and things
that you absolutely have to do.
Yeah, I totally agree.
I read this article actually like today by the Atlantic called like the status of being
busy, which is that like in this day and age, being busy is seen as like as being
successful as being popular as being like a go getter when actually busyness really just
demonstrates.
Yes, obviously like a period of just having a lot on in chaos, but actually it represents
an inability to set personal boundaries in a way because you don't and you haven't been
intentional in putting time aside, right?
I think you made a really good point.
Like we talk about not being passive, not being passive doesn't mean being active, right?
Like you would think that that's the opposite, right?
Okay, but I don't want to be passive.
I better be doing things all the time, but it's actually being intentional.
It's actually being like, okay, wait, is this really, I think I really liked the example
of you being like, okay, feeling the need to spend every single night with friends, feeling
need to go out to go out to dinner.
That is the easiest thing because saying yes is the easiest thing, but saying no is the
hard thing and it's sometimes the right thing.
So how do you think we can shift our outlook and our behaviors to be more intentional?
What do you think like kind of being in the past and just being in like the driver's state,
not the passenger state, really like means in our 20s?
Yeah, ironically some of the times that I felt most passive in my life have also been
sometimes where I'm most busy because I am filling my plate with all of these things
while I'm being avoidant to maybe more of the personal goals and the personal things
that are actually going to fulfill me.
Busyness does not always equal fulfillment and sometimes I think the hardest thing is to
slow down, be honest with yourself, spend time just with yourself and like doing those
slower things and figuring out kind of what your next step is and deciding what step to
take forward rather than being so busy that you can't even make that choice you're just
always moving.
Sometimes for me that that busyness actually is the passiveness because I'm being avoidant
to my own life.
And so I think the first thing that I would do if you find yourself being passive is to
try to figure out why that is happening.
Is it fear of not being able to reach a goal that you have in your mind?
Is it a lack of self confidence to spend time with yourself and to step up because maybe
you've never been very comfortable just being alone with yourself and being accepting
of yourself and working on yourself or maybe it's even just being kind of overwhelmed
and unsure of which direction to go because especially in our 20s when nobody has their
lives figured out at all and we see all of these people around us in our own lives and
then also perpetuated on the internet going in all different directions all at once.
It can be really overwhelming to decide which direction we even want to go in and then
how do we even take that first step forward if there's 100 options and we don't know
which one to do.
So being able to take that step back first rather than feeling our lives with more busyness
and see why I'm a being passive.
Is it fear?
Is it self confidence?
Is it that I'm overwhelmed?
And then what is that first step forward for myself that's actually going to work?
Not just what everyone else is doing.
And I think that comes down to values, right?
That is such a precious and personal thing for each of us.
But when we're really caught up in comparing ourselves, that's a big one, seeing what everyone
else is doing and feeling like we're coming up short.
Your motivation is not the same as theirs.
You have no idea why they're doing what they're doing, why it's important to them.
They're stamina, they're energy reserves, whether they're actually sitting back at the
end of the day and being like, wow, nothing I did today was intentional.
This was all just like clutter that I felt compelled to do.
So I think taking time to be like, okay, I don't actually need to know what I want exactly.
I don't need a five-year plan.
I don't need to have it all worked out.
Think having it all worked out is actually a bad thing because you have never room for flexibility
and for surprise and for excitement.
It's mainly being like, what are the values that I want to guide my decision making by?
Is it that I want to be guided by creativity and I want to be exploring ways to be creative?
And that means that no, I can't say yes to all my social plans because I do need space
for rest and space for my imagination.
Is it, okay, I'm really motivated by growth and I'm really motivated by intelligence
or I'm really motivated by whatever it is that is like, oh, I think independence.
Maybe that's like the value that drives your kind of financial goals and how active you
are and your financial goals, right?
It's like, stop trying to pursue things from a place of wanting to please others or wanting
to do what others are doing.
That's what makes you passive.
Do it from a place of once again, when you're intentional about your motivations, your inspiration,
your mission, I think everything becomes a lot easier.
Have you guys kind of found that?
Exactly.
Something that has always grounded me in my own life because it can definitely be overwhelming
for me to think about like, where do I want to see myself in five years?
What do I want my exact career to be?
Because for me, that's never been something that has come naturally, picking one path.
But what really grounds me and helps me be more stable and be more active in my life
regardless of that is to think about, okay, I don't know exactly what the tangible thing
is that I need.
I don't need to know exactly the tangible path in that career and whatever the relationship
and the timeline.
I don't need to know that.
So what really matters to me is to know what my values are that are always going to be
there and what the feeling that I want in life is because you're 20s, and I say this
as someone who has just basically started my 20s, I'm only 21, but I think it's such
a good time to experiment because nobody knows exactly where they're going.
And like you said, I don't think you should.
I think that's kind of a back theme because you're going to put yourself on a path and
you're not going to let yourself change your mind or you're not going to keep yourself
open to other opportunities that might come up.
And so when I try to focus on the feeling that I want out of my life instead of those
tangible things, I can really keep myself open to opportunities that come up and all
of these things that might bring those feelings for me.
So for example, if we're talking about that feeling of independence and freedom, you
can find different ways to get that out of your life on big levels and on little levels
throughout your day.
So maybe that financial independence or just that feeling of freedom in general on the
grandest scheme you can think of is owning your own business and working for yourself.
But maybe that's not a tangible, reachable thing for you in this moment, but you still
want to have that feeling.
So maybe a lower level of that is doing some traveling or maybe reading books and just
educating yourself on things that you're interested in and taking that sense of agency
and independence in your life.
And maybe even on a day-to-day level, it's just doing activities by yourself.
So when you know what those values are and what those feelings are, I think that it helps
you to be active in your life from day one because it doesn't need to be.
I'm jumping right to the finish line right now.
But there are things that I can find today this week, this month that still give me that
feeling and things can really snowball from there.
Sometimes it's kind of silly.
Our show name is Girls with Goals, but in the recent, I mean, we've been doing this for
almost three years and the recent, I'd say, two years, our answer to the question, like,
what are your goals and what do you want to do with your life?
Or do you really have an answer?
Like we just want to chase improvement and chase feeling good.
And that is, I don't think it's the answer that we would have said three years ago when
we started this show.
I probably would have given you a list of like five things that I want to accomplish.
And, you know, maybe I did accomplish those five things, but it doesn't stop when you
accomplish them.
And life also doesn't stop if you don't accomplish your goals or if you have some failures
along the way.
And so I think a massive, massive point that we've learned in the past couple of years
that this has been something that we've, you know, had to articulate over and over again,
the concept of goals and in our frame of mind, what are our goals are that we don't have
any or at least not tangible ones necessarily, but we do have a direction.
We have a kind of quality that we expect of ourselves.
And I think that is a really big point that's taken us, I mean, I'm speaking for myself,
but taken me at least into a more, you know, controlled and intentional and like really
self-aware journey into improvement and whatever that may be literally every aspect of life.
So I can't tell you, I go to the gym every day.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you I have a gym goal because I couldn't tell you
that.
I don't want to stop, right?
Like, you know, I don't.
I don't.
I don't.
I don't.
Three years ago, I was like, I want to hit 150 pounds squat.
I don't know my squat weight is right now.
I couldn't tell you how much I squat right now.
I go to the gym because I want to continue showing up for myself and I want to feel strong
and I want to be healthy.
And like, that's why I do it.
And of course things come in and now you have different mini goals in your life, but
and it's really fun to set mini goals along the way, but that's not like the end all
be all goal.
And sometimes when you do set those really tangible and really specific goals, that's
when you feel the passive passiveness come in because that's all you're working towards.
You're kind of tunnel vision towards that and everything else falls behind or isn't
front of mind.
You're not really putting intentional effort towards it.
And then you get into this right where things feel so much like clutter.
I'd love that word that you said earlier that even the goal you're working towards feels
a little bit like clutter.
And then you're going to get to why really what am I even doing?
And I mean, at that point you're in the passive era and you're, I guess, snapping out of
it.
But that's how you kind of, in my mind, that's in my experience, how I've become passive
is almost by getting too specific on what I want in an overwhelming sense.
That's actually so interesting because one of my questions was, was going to be how is
your relationship to your goals changed as you get older?
Oh wow.
And I was like, that's like such a good answer.
Yeah.
Well, that really is like a maturity thing too.
I mean, I know your toes are fat.
I know a carized hair is so thin.
But the like, please, please yell at me if I get the lyrics wrong.
But 18 and nothing.
How do you know everything at 18 and nothing at 21?
Oh yeah.
That was right.
That's, that's me.
Thanks guys.
I mean, that's obviously something that a lot of people can relate to.
You kind of feel like you have everything.
And maybe those really specific goals work well when you're around 18 because you don't
have to act on them right away.
You don't act on them right away.
Or the dream.
And if you do act on them, like Caroline said, it's not, I'm going to own my own business.
It's like, I go to work.
I work my minimum wage job in high school and that's me with financial freedom.
Like that satisfies that craving, I guess.
Whereas once you're 21.
That's so much fun.
Yeah, this takes so much lower.
It's kind of, it's exponential, whereas a few years later, you're 21 world of possibilities.
Yeah.
I think how my relationship with goal setting has changed in the more recent years is that
a lot of my goals are more of these continuous goals versus end game goals because it in,
for my mind and the way that my mind works, I am very future and forward thinking.
And if I tell myself that I need something and want to do something, I get so one track
minded with it that it tends to lead me down this like anxious path of having to get
somewhere as fast as I can and like on that track.
And then I'm pretty avoidant of other things around me.
And then obviously that is not good when you don't get exactly there.
And I think something that really showed me that I actually like have matured in that
I've done that well recently is I was looking for part time internships and things to do
with this next year ahead of me because I have one year of college left.
But I actually only have one semester worth of classes to do.
So I have a much lower schedule and I was like, okay, well, maybe I want to work for a
start up in Boston and kind of fill more of my time.
And I was really excited about this one opportunity.
It was like sports marketing seemed really up my alley.
You know, had some social media aspects and fitness and marketing.
And I was one month, three interviews deep in this company and they turned me down.
And which yeah, sad.
But honestly, I was so shocked that I got that and I was like, huh, okay, well, it must
not be what I was supposed to be doing.
And like myself a couple years ago, having been rejected to something that I was, you know,
a little bit emotionally involved in and like starting to think forward about it.
I would have been so much more destroyed by that.
Whereas I was able to like move on and forget about it than today because I have my podcast
going for me and I still have school and I know that the other opportunities are going
to come and open up.
And so I think that being able to have more of these continuous goals of like, I just want
to feel successful.
I want to feel independent.
I want to feel healthy versus I want to feel successful by getting this exact position
at this exact time really keeps me moving forward because I think that in later years,
if I got rejected or something, then I might have just stopped and stalled right there
and I wouldn't have kept moving forward.
And so I think specifically in your 20s when you're navigating these paths and like,
what am I going to do?
If you can set out to do things without the pressure of them having to be end game, then
taking that path forward is so much more exciting and you're able to learn and evolve and
grow along the way rather than, you know, seeing something as a hard stop.
And I think that kind of the really tangible, really specific big goals that are almost too
far out of reach in the current moment because I will never tell you that nothing is too
far out of reach.
But in the current moment, something is probably too far out of reach if you're setting a massive,
massive goal.
The way that that becomes passive, I think just listening to Caroline talk is my, my concept
on it is what my brain's doing.
Well, I'm listening to her.
When you get those really, really big goals, the reason I know they don't work out for
me and I know a lot of people probably have the same experience is you're almost doubting
yourself and self-doubt is something that we talk about a lot or the inverse self confidence
because we want self confidence, of course, don't really want self-doubt if it's debilitating.
But in the passive sense, it self-doubt is debilitating.
And so when you set these really, really big goals, it's like, you kind of self sabotage
and I'm sure you've talked about this on your show before too, but you kind of self-sabotage
and that default into the passive zone is in my mind, 100% that self-sabotage because
you're like, kind of I'm not even going to try.
I'm just going to in the back of my mind, hope of this massive goal that I think I want
for myself worked out, but I'm really not going to put like tons of effort towards it
or like intentional effort.
And that's not a zone that we want to be in because it feels like you have so much time
right because it is such a big thing.
But I also see so much space for excuses.
Exactly.
I also think that like with big goals that are like numbers, for example, you talked about
like 150 pounds squat or like, I don't know, a huge milestone, a marathon, that's another
one.
Something like that.
It's like, okay, once you hit that, you lose steam because it's not sustainable because
your goal is one point in time.
It is before you reach the goal and it is when you reach the goal and the after is you
don't have anything for that.
And I was talking to my friend who did a marathon recently, so impressive.
And she was like, yeah, I don't want to run anymore because that was so freaking exhausting.
She was like, that was awful.
Like I was working.
I was, she basically re-created her whole lifestyle around this huge thing that she,
I think thought was going to bring her a lot of other things.
Was going to bring her confidence.
It was going to bring her control.
It was going to bring her empowerment.
Yes, those things did happen, but she wasn't thinking about how running was going to
promote those things as a lifestyle.
She was thinking about how she was going to get to this goal and what that meant was that
once the goal had been obtained, all of the habits, all of the processes, all of the
attitude adjustments that she'd had in that process were suddenly, you know, no longer
useful for her.
And so I think that's like a really important part about when we think about goals and you
think about being active in your life, not being a passive agent.
Immediately your mind might go to, okay, well, I need to set like the biggest goal possible
because that's going to give me focus, but really your time kind of ends when that goal
is reached and you're not thinking about how you actually want to create a good life
around that thing and beyond that thing, if that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
I love that.
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