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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s.
The podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our
20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Today is International Women's Day and I thought what better way to celebrate than to
bring my mom on the show to discuss motherhood, feminism being a leader, a successful woman
in a male-dominated industry, all of the above.
She is a pretty cool lady and my personal hero.
I know that sounds cliche but I am super lucky to have had such a wonderful role model who
has a lot of wisdom to share and I thought you guys could benefit from some of that wisdom
as well.
This episode is part of IHART's International Women's Day initiative called Women Take
the Mic.
You can find a bunch of other interviews just like this one by searching Women Take the
Mic wherever you get your podcasts.
Let's jump into the interview.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast, the new listeners,
old listeners, whatever you are in the world.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we break down the psychology
of our 20s.
Today we are going to be doing something a little bit different.
I know I say that every guest is my favorite but honestly this one I think is a great
kind of has to take the cake by obligation because they are blood.
I thought it is International Women's Day today who better to talk to who is more my
hero than my own mother.
So today I am bringing on my mom to come and have a chat with me.
We talk about mother daughter dynamics, motherhood being a successful woman in business as she
is and feminism and all the good things that come with it.
So hey mom, how you going?
Hey Jim, you are saying to me that you were nervous before this?
I am a bit nervous.
Why?
Because I have not been interviewed by you before and it is a different dynamic and of course
I want to do well by you.
Oh my god you want to impress the listeners?
Well I don't want to let you down.
I don't want to come across as not being worthy of your wonderful pod.
Oh that is okay, I will defend you to the death.
Anyone says anything, I will be like that is my mother you are talking about so blocked
deleted.
I honestly think this will be a great chat because we have a good relationship both as a mother
and daughter and as kind of friends as well.
Yeah me too, I am looking forward to it.
It is just a different dynamic for me.
Yeah I am in charge.
Yeah you are in my turf.
I can't hang up.
You can't hang up.
Blood related.
So I wanted to bring you on because obviously it is International Women's Day and I was thinking
let's do a special episode for this.
Let's do an episode talking about what it means to be a woman, to identify as a woman and
part of what comes with that is also a discussion around our relationship with our mothers and
our relationship with our parents and all these other things how our childhood informs
the women that we grow up to be and I thought that we could do a little deep dive into
what it was like for you to become my mom because I am the oldest daughter.
You are also the oldest daughter and just like what I was like as a child but it was like
becoming a mother like I said and then what it is like to run a business basically what
you do, well you are a CEO so what it is like.
Well certainly plenty to talk about.
Yeah I am going to start with the hard hitting question.
Okay go for it.
Because I wanted to know this as well what was I like as a child do you remember?
I would be embarrassed if you don't.
No the funny thing is you really do remember and I suspect that there is, I need to be
a bit careful because of course memories change over time and you think you remember
certain things I am sure you remember some things differently to the way I remember them.
We can get to that but actually the really interesting thing is when I sort of think back
on you and your sisters I have got really clear memories of the days each of you were
born.
My sort of very clear first impressions of each of you and it was, it is funny you are
all different.
You are, I remember, so what I remember of you the day you were born and by the way you
had to come in with a bang you were an emergency Caesar child so there was that.
There was that.
The thing I remember was in amongst all of this sort of calm chaos was you sort of coming
out with these big eyes just sort of slowly blinking at the world as if to say where am
I, what have I come to but not crying so much and just sort of trying to sort of focus
straight out of the gate trying to focus on what was around you and trying to make sense
of it is what it felt like.
I can't remember that but yeah.
Then you were quiet as a little baby for the first week or so but that changed.
But the other thing too is that I think the other really strong kind of recollection
for me was that very early on you realised that your kids come out with their own personalities
and because I too had done a bit of psychology in my time I think there is that whole nature
versus nurture sort of thing that goes through and I think you start off thinking you know
you're going to be this amazing parent and it's all going to be nurture but you know probably
because you are first that it was a pretty overwhelming kind of sense of oh this little
person has come out you know with a set with their own sense of who they are their own
personality.
And then what were you like as a kid?
You were strong-minded.
Oh.
So it hasn't changed much.
No.
It hasn't but you were.
You had strong views even as a youngster but you were happy and as a first child for
us the biggest thing was you were a sleeper and my golly gosh we love that.
That's so cute.
I love that you said I came out and I was quiet for the first week and the irony being
now I literally talk on the internet for my job which is so funny and I am a bit of a
yapa obviously.
I love the yarn.
I love the yarn.
You were just a quiet little mule when you were just a wee little baby.
And I was your favourite obviously for the first five years at least.
Well as Bart and I say you are our favourite oldest daughter.
Yeah that's so diplomatic.
I still think that you all have a favourite you just can't say and I think that I'm
yours hopefully my younger sisters hopefully Ellie and Hannah aren't listening.
Yeah well I'm going to assume they are.
Yeah I'm sure they are.
So this is the thing.
I feel like how about you when you had me you were 32 right?
33.
33 okay so you were like well it wasn't well into your 30s but you were like my age like
nine years older than I am now.
And that's like insane to me to think that I would be ready to have a child in nine years
like let alone in like 15.
What was like the biggest lesson you learned having children?
Did you actually always want children even when you were younger?
Yeah I always wanted kids even when I was younger.
It's interesting because like 33 is you know it's not young to be having kids.
Yeah.
In the spirit of total frankness you know this took us a while to get pregnant with you.
I don't need the internet to know that.
But it's just it is one of those things that we were keen to have kids you know life you
find your partners at whatever age other things kind of happen and you know you I think
one of the one of the things that I was thinking about in terms of this conversation was how
people think about when to have kids and you know for me it was when I met your dad
and you know we went overseas and did some things and then came home to Australia and we
were keen to start a family and you know we feel blessed to have three kids but it's not
always a straight line.
I definitely felt very ready to be having kids but it comes with a lot of you know a lot
of ups and downs too and things that you don't know what happens through pregnancies
and whatever and so yeah we're you know was I ready I was but then in some ways I guess
you're never ready because you never know what's going to happen and that's part of the
challenge is the uncertainty of it all.
Was it harder when we were younger or is it harder now now that we're because a lot
of us were I flew the nest pretty young I left her when I was like 17 but Ellie and Hannah
are like getting to the point where they're about to leave.
Has it been that has that been difficult being like oh am I no longer having that role
that you've had for 24 years?
I think it's it's one of the other things you do learn when you have kids and maybe
I think about this because you know you know I was a working mum for big chunks of you
know your younger life and your sisters as well and particularly you know when you were
in primary school and I think there's a sense that when kids are really young they really
need their parents and they do for certain things but you know I found when when you were
in high school and your sisters as they've gotten older that you continue to need your
parents but in different ways and for different things and that sense changes but I kind of
thought that you know there was times when you guys were in high school for instance where
you needed your parents around just as much as you did when we were in primary school and
so I think that's maybe one of the I don't know if myths is the right word but there's
so much focus on you know being there for kids when they're younger and actually I think
the pressure is there all the way through and just being clear about that and recognising
you have to try to find a way to be there for your kids no matter what else is going on
it's just one of the you know one of the challenges but also one of the great joys of being
a parent when when you feel like you you are doing that and hopefully your kids think
you're doing that. Well it's so interesting because I feel like for a lot of like my
teenage I didn't really need you well at least I thought I didn't need you and then as
soon as I went to university and then actually like probably the second year of university
like the first year I really was like I don't need my parents like I am a big girl I am
an adult now I live independently and then it was like oh you get older and it's like
the reversal and you're like oh my gosh I really need my mom and I'm like I really like
it's kind of coming back to the nest like it's such a big thing in your 20s that you
you fly the nest and you go off and you do your own thing but then I think that the further
along in that journey then all you're like actually I want to come home and like and I
want to see my parents and I want to call my parents and I remember it was like my first
like big heartbreak when I was at uni that I was like suddenly so much more rely on you
guys in a way that I didn't feel like I had been since I was a kid.
I think you all you know I've seen it in your sisters and well as well of course you
go through phases of where you really independence is really important to you and it's the actual
independence and I think it's the perception of independence as well but I think you
know from my perspective just being around sometimes is important then so you know because
I think it allows you to sort of go off and and live your life but knowing that if you
need it's there and even if you don't necessarily acknowledge it I think there's a sense that
you know your parents can provide a bit of a foundation and you know if you do need to
come back or need support we're there but it's you know the flip side is it's fantastic
as a parent to see your kids going off and doing that and then yeah hopefully at different
stages the perception or whatever of that independence becomes less important and you
and that's the whole thing about your relationship kind of ebbs and flows and evolves and it's
yeah so it's a nice thing.
What's been the hardest part about being a mother?
Yeah it's a good question I mean I think in all honesty it's the sort of vulnerability
and the uncertainty of it like you just you know with a partner there's an element of
it but when you you know when you have kids and you just love them so much and care for
them so much it's that you know watching them go out into the world and the equal measure
of wanting them to be independent and it and you know excited and exploring the world
and doing everything that you did but you know also sort of probably having a greater understanding
of all the things that can go wrong and just that balance of just you know and there's always
just that little bit of fear you never want harm or sadness or anything to come to your
kids but that's not the way they can live their lives so it's just that uncertainty and
it's you know it brings great excitement and emotion and joy but every now and then you
know you're white knuckling in a bit.
Really it's so interesting because I even feel that way towards Hannah and Ellie like my
sisters where Ellie is going to uni and I think about what my first two years of uni are
like and I want her to have those experiences but I also know like how chaotic and sometimes
awful they were and I'm like maybe I'll just protect you from them like maybe you could
just be a little girl a little baby for a little bit longer and like not have those that
independence and I'm like I feel that towards my sister I can't imagine what that would
feel like as a mother being like I give birth to this child who was now like doing like
often the world and I like don't know what that where they are don't know what they're
doing at all times what was like an experience where you said you were like white knuckling
it.
Oh it's you know this thing well I don't know you go overseas and you know what I was thinking
about that time I was an Amsterdam and I called you and was like I'm dying possibly
but I wasn't even like on anything I wasn't I know the connotations of like being an
Amsterdam I was just like really tired and I was like I'm dying I've decided like my
anxiety and I called you guys like 3am well and it was it was the you know it was that like
maybe white knucklings the wrong way to describe it but there is a certain sense that
when your phone rings in the middle of the night you know once you've had kids that has
a certain like you leap you can leap to the wrong conclusion and so your heart starts
racing you calm yourself down but then you know there was an element of do it would have
been nice if you'd phone the next day to remind us that you're okay.
No no that's not how it works.
I was too so I was 18 and selfish I wasn't going to let you guys know I was okay but the
other thing too is just the emotional sort of stuff and the emotional hurt and so that's
why white knucklings not the right term but you do expose yourself to feeling it you
know you've experienced it yourself but then to watch other people who you care about
go through some of that stuff which is just it's just life but you know it's not it's
not easy to see other people go through that and to be sad or to be you know to be harsh
and in some ways really the emotional stuff is harder than you know going to get the
stitches or whatever else and you know we've had conversations about this that you know
we've we try to do the right thing we try to to raise each of you as independent people
who could make their own decisions and who were resilient to those challenges and sometimes
it meant you know letting you find your way a bit and I'm sure that felt hard and it was
hard to watch but and experience as well but you've got to you know it's always trying
to walk that line of doing things that you know trying to be the parent that sets you
up for success in your future which sometimes you know comes across as you know not necessarily
being the kindest or most protective parent at different stages when you're younger.
I know exactly what you're referring to and I remember being in primary school and all
of the people all of my friends had these like helicopter parents who on a drop of the
heart would be there to fix things for them and you guys were not those parents you were
like oh you're having problems with school great go on talk to your teacher deal with it
like not that callous you went like deal with it like get out of our face we don't want
to hear from you but it was like that thing right did have a point where I was like gosh
I wish that my mom was just like a bit more angry on like on my behalf and I'm sure you
were but you were like and now I'm super grateful for the fact that you made me be a problem
solver and independent because it's I think a big part of my personality but those definitely
times where I was like gosh I do just want my mom to scream at someone for me.
Well there were times when can I just say that little bit of independence which usually
your dad let you exercise more than me.
I remember moments when I similarly went to pick you up from childcare and thought what
is she wearing or what is she doing and then packing your own lunch that had its highs
and lows as well.
Oh yeah what was one of they packed junk food?
Well just fair few crackers.
Yeah dad I was a growing girl.
I was hungry.
I was sharing them I don't know why.
So this is like a hot hot hot question but you have three daughters.
Did you ever want a son?
Oh yeah so interesting isn't it.
Look I think you always I think you always sort of think oh you know one of each you know
at least like having one of each in the family not necessarily just two kids but yeah I
think you do but can I be really honest and say well for starters I reckon with every
one of my pregnancies at least one at one stage someone told me that I was having a boy
and no one ever told me I was having girls but like with you we were walking down the
street in Fitzroy one morning and this Italian non-er came from across the street like walked
you know a hundred meters from across the street came up to me and said it's a boy.
So that was pretty funny and when I was pregnant with Hannah I definitely thought she was
a boy just because she behaved so differently in the womb to the rest of you because she
was a little pocket rocket in there but so after you and like after you and Ellie I have
to say my greatest fear was that I was going to have a boy because I was like okay I've
got two girls now I think I understand them and and a boy is just going to like throw
me off now but I think it's this is going to sound like such a cliche but and I know
honestly because after you were born like you know the whole the emergency season thing
was a moment and at the time it was you know our doctor was fantastic but when I look
back I thought wow that was a moment and from then on you do just sort of think well
I'm just I just feel blessed to have healthy kids you know so that's the truth of it.
So I you didn't know what gender was it a surprise?
All three yeah no way I didn't know that.
Oh that's so cute and the funny thing is that each time around we had three names for
boys but only one name for a girl.
So they knew someone in the someone in the universe knew so that's actually really interesting
I had no idea but I do also think you didn't have sons but you raised us like sons.
I I've said this since I was like younger I'm like you guys raised us like boys in a
very like traditional stereotypical way that people raised children like boys just letting
us get into so much mischief we were always dirty I pretty sure I only wore boys clothes
for a long time Buzz Lightyear t-shirt.
Buzz Lightyear outfits honey don't just say t-shirt you were the full kitten caboodle.
Yeah well I was a super fan I was I was a I was a stan I loved that man.
Yeah but yeah I just feel like there was so many ways that you guys kind of didn't raise
us without like an idea of gender like I maybe I'm just being remembering things that
I want to remember them but I don't remember having dolls.
I I think also was the fact that maybe like the gennisterial line now come on really what
dole did I have oh my goodness come on what did you used to do to your Barbies.
Oh I said I made weird Barbies to cuddle the hair off.
Yeah so you know fingers as well I want the extra.
Yeah definitely I don't remember the fingers but you definitely were queen of the Barbie haircut
this were punk rocker Barbies.
Yeah I think one of the things too that I've come to really appreciate and you know you
make the decisions you do in terms of work and life and all the rest of it but I've really
come to the view that the fact that your dad's you know spent a lot of time at home with
each of you and it was very clear for you I think from my perspective and I think it's
because there were fewer men in the playground at the time but having a father at homes
he let you take more risks there's no doubt about it and he was much more comfortable
with that and I can there are so many times we want to talk about white knuckling actually
watching you race to the corner of the footpath on your bike every time as you just screened
down the street on your bike I just used to think oh my gosh I hope she stops in time
and it's the same for all of your sister you know each of your sisters but you know
Bart was just he let you guys you know jump and run and climb and you know he he was famous
in the I mean I remember coming around the corner of the playground at the school and
seeing all of the mums kind of standing in a semi-circle with their mouths open and I
knew what was going on and it was Bart standing there throwing kids in the air and they had
this kind of half happy half terrified look on their face and it just so explains the
difference of you know I think how you guys were raised.
It's true because dad was a stay-at-home dad for most of our childhood I know there was
a period where you were you stayed at home but you were still working but he was like a
full stay-at-home dad and I know I'm talking to you but that was definitely moments I remember
being a kid where he faced a lot of discrimination for that whilst you probably also faced a lot
of discrimination for being a working mom like neither of you had it easy to kind of
subvert the gender norms the one I always think of is the time that that woman wouldn't
let her daughter come over because she thought he was a sex offender or something like that.
It was someone who yeah did I I won't repeat it because it was illegal.
It was illegal yeah and it was but yeah he faced that it was yeah he faced that but equally
I'm not sure if you remember this it was this was when I went to when I just started this
period so there's about five years when I was predominantly the stay-at-home parent.
You were in high school by then but your sisters were in primary school and I remember going
to a birthday party that one of Ellie's friends was having and we were at you know that
indoor playground and I arrived to the party and the woman who was hosting it you know
sort of said to me oh you know who's who's your child and I said oh Ellie and she said
well she goes oh are you are you bats wife and I said yes and she said oh and all along
I just thought he was this lovely single dad oh my gosh and I just thought embarrassing
for her oh it's just it was just really brutal and I thought what and what do I think about
all your mums who come and pick your kids up and so it's just it's fun both ways yeah
it really did yeah but I'm glad that it happened that way because I feel like we got a really
unique childhood and now it's so much more common but back then like it was so weird like
early early 2000s to see like a stay-at-home dad oh it was just it was it was a tough gig
it was in both ways like it was very hard for him very lonely to be honest but and look
I don't you know I'm not trying to say it was better or worse for either of us but it was
it was equally frustrating if you'd rock up in the school yard you know I'd drop you
off at school and I'd be in a suit and on my way to work and people would stop and ask
me if I was coming to the book reading at 11.30 and you know in contrast that the dads
who are dropping off in their suits no one except everyone knew where they were going they're
all going to work and they didn't get they got praised for making time to drop their kids
off and they weren't asked you know are you going to stay longer and it sounds like a small
thing but there's always a bit of it was hard not to feel a little bit of guilt yeah
or like feel like they're being like oh you're you're like a failure as a mother because
you're not sticking around and we are because I haven't I haven't made the time for that
it was it just felt like that was the message. Here's the thing I don't remember a single
book reading so I don't think it mattered that you weren't there you were there for the
important things yeah well I think I hope that that's the case but regardless you have
to you make the you make the decisions that have to work for you know your family and it's
a combination of a whole bunch of things and it's you know you've got to have income and
you know ideally you have a house to live in and financial security and you know you've
got to you just make those choices and and they're not certain forget you kind of even
flow with that but I think the hard the hard part and the thing you probably get a bit
more perspective on when you get a bit older is that those opinions don't really matter
and yeah you just got you've got to glide past them a little bit and know that you're making
the best decisions that you can you know and there's no you're never going to do it perfectly
well. Well that kind of leads to my next question do you think you made any mistakes would
you do anything differently? Did we make mistakes 101 mistakes? Yeah name a couple I want
something to blame you about I want something to hold over your head well there's there's
there's I don't know there's lots of little things you go back and you in a partly you
say things you phrase something in a particular way and you know you you don't think about
it but it lands it gets heard in a particular way and and you know when your kids recount
things back to you you didn't mean it that way or you didn't the content you saw the context
differently there's 101 little things like that and you know all sorts of stuff and I don't
look back and think that there's one major thing that that we did you know we had but you know
that you didn't get everything right and whether it was what you did or the tone that you did it
within the time you just know that but would you do anything differently I think that's a I mean
in some ways I think it's a hard question or even a harsh question because you know you do the
best that you can at the time and you know I think one thing that's very hard on parents if I'm
honest is that there's so much else going on there's so much other context that your kids don't know
about and nor should they but it does mean that sometimes you know you come home from work there's
been a lot of stuff going down there's a lot of stress or anxiety related to other things that you
don't necessarily want to share with your kids but it doesn't form some of the decisions you make
or how you communicate them and at the time you know I don't think your kids appreciate it when
you grow up I think you do but yeah that's that's that's all in the mix on a lighter note I'll give
you an example yeah Ellie teases me all the time because I'm not sure if you remember this but
you know I used to sing songs to you guys when I was putting you to bed and Ellie in particular
always just wanted to sing along oh she's so cute she's still like that but I just wanted I just
wanted to go to sleep and so she teases me now about the fact that I would be quite firm on the
like no you're not to sing the songs with me and she says you're singing all these cute songs and
all I wanted to do was sing along but you would say no you've got to go to bed now so maybe on
the other reflection I would have done that differently that's that's so cute because it's like
I forget that although we each like grew up together we I'd never heard that like we had such
different memories of like our interactions with you that's so cute oh my god she's adorable
but she I'm gonna say she also well I mean so here's the other thing so I'm trying to get her to
sleep because Ellie a henna of course didn't sleep at all and so when she's recounting these stories
like we're in year one of the five year stage of you know youngest daughter not sleeping in the ice
I'm gonna ask you a few more questions around motherhood and I want to ask whether you think that
you were a feminist mother not just a feminist but were you a feminist mother so this is a really
interesting question for me because for a couple reasons one because I actually think I've become
more of a feminist as I've gotten older and if I think about it in the context of not just being
someone who you know believes in equal rights and lives that way and hopefully raises their girls
that way and I'll come back to it but but I've probably I'd probably be a bit critical of me in terms
of being a really strong advocate for other women so I think in the way I lived in the things I did
but if I think about you know feminist feminists being it as an advocate and a really strong advocate
for all women I'm not sure I'd give myself a huge score on that to be honest I look back and think
I could have done more or been more vocal and in different circumstances but in terms of
how I raised being a feminist mother yeah I think so and yeah and I think you know in terms of
being an advocate for each of you both as individuals but also as girls and young women yeah I do
I do think so yeah I would say so as well I do think that like this but the brand of
feminism that we had when we were younger was very white feminism but I think also that was like
just what was there at the time like I always think about like Hillary Clinton
as like an example but I also think that like it's just like the process of
unlearning your white feminism in a way especially like where we lived you know we lived in like
in Australia in in a city Australia where like the discussions about like intersectionality weren't
being had back in like 2000 like the early 2010s but now I feel like you're such a good example
also I feel like you're not giving yourself enough credit there like you being an advocate I think
you did a lot more than most other people think about all your friends like you have so many strong
female friends who you advocate for in so many ways yeah look I appreciate that I do there's
just some things I've learned on the way through and some things in leadership roles where
if I was being honest you know I think I could have done more and maybe I came late to some of the
things that I should have been you know doing more of and being much more supportive and more
demonstrably supportive I think and just recognizing the importance of that over demonstration of
being a champion or supporter of people not not having it be sort of implied or assumed.
How do you think that our relationship has changed as I've become an adult?
Do you think we've gotten close off? Yeah no I definitely think so but I think it's one of those
things that yeah I don't know like it's I think it's just a different type of closeness right
like there's maybe a weird word but there's an intimacy when you're with your kids when you're
younger and a closeness and a dependency that's you know that's really close right and
and and a lot of fun in that and that you know that fun piece is is a closeness that's pretty unique to
that younger step when your kids are younger and it's it's just lovely but you know as your kids grow
out and certainly with you you know being able to have grown up conversations and you know what I
think it is is being able to experience and appreciate that respect and you know there's not a lot
of people that you go through life with where you just really look at them and think I really respect
who you are as a person and well and I've got you know I feel lucky to have a lot of really good
friends who I do really respect but there's you know there's not that many people and anyway it's
fun to sort of have been a part of that and to have seen you grow up and then to have so much
respect and appreciation and admiration for what you've done and I guess to be honest if I'm being
a little bit egotistical you sort of feel like you're a little bit a part of that and
it's very special I do like to give you guys a lot of credit I will say
I don't like I don't want too much it's just it's just that little bit where you sort of like
every now and then yeah she's mine do you yeah I think dad does it more than you do
oh no comment no tip from out do you find it weird when you know when I was like in my as I
like got into my early 20s did you find it weird when I would talk about my relationships
or like sex or anything like that was that weird because I feel like there was a point where
it kind of yeah I don't know I was like am I treating my mum more like my my friend or like my
mum yeah I didn't find it weird I mean occasionally there was an early podcast that
I'm not sure if you remember this but you said something along the lines of oh my parents might
be listening and I jokingly was saying yeah I rang you up and said yes I'm listening which
you know of course was not contemporary but nonetheless so every now and then there's maybe a bit
you know too much information I think the hardest part is that I was probably I'm very close to
my mum your grandma you know that and we probably share more information now but when I was younger
so it was me and my brother but I had a step brother and a step sister and that sort of mixed marriage
and you know my mum and my stepfather were sort of off kind of building their own life together
and and the easiest thing for me to do was just you know play my cards close to my chest
so I didn't share a lot of information it wasn't really letting anyone know what I was up to
live in my own life and like you I was at uni when I was 17 and so and then you know my parents
moved into states I was like like you really independent but in a kind of flip scenario if you like
and so I probably wasn't sharing as much as information and you know I think it was just getting
used to what you were prepared to sort of share as well it wasn't that it was right or wrong or
I felt uncomfortable it was just different to perhaps the way I had been at that age and so just a
bit of getting used to that yeah it's so interesting other things you don't want to hear
maybe there's maybe a bit of dating information that before the not to be named
boyfriend arrived in the scene that I I went a little bit it was not wanting to look uninterested
was a bit la la la in my brain I feel like I'm very good where I had like I don't talk talk about
them by name or introduce you until it's like serious like until we've been dating for at least six
months so I feel like my current boyfriend such just not even my current my boyfriend will be for
a long time um but just kind of like popped onto the scene and then you guys I think I mentioned
him and then you met him like a month later yeah that's fine it was it's more I mean if I'm
being really honest it's not bad it's more the the more casual relationships oh you didn't approve
it's not that I didn't approve I just I just didn't need to know about him yeah I'm just gonna say
this for the listeners the information that I was giving my mom was like oh a man was at my house
last night and you'd be like no no that's not true that's not true the funny one was when I picked
you up on a Saturday morning because we were flying back to Melbourne for grandma's birthday and you
were furiously texting someone in the backseat of the Uber which was the person who was still at
your place did you know that well yeah because you ended up having to tell me because I couldn't
figure out what all the texting was going on about yeah that was oh my god I completely forgot
about that oh yeah that's so true that did happen and the thing was you know what it was was this
was actually it was actually not good because my house where I can't I'm moving out literally today
but my current house once you're in the house and the door is locked you can't get out without a key
and it's metal bars all over the windows all over the doors and the all of the doors were locked
and there were no keys in the house and my roommates weren't coming back until that that evening so
I accidentally locked that man in my house for eight hours before he could get out and I was and I
was like I we were running late for our flight I was like and uh well obviously he's not around
anymore so I'm not gonna say I'm gonna be like sorry but can you imagine if he was listening sorry
I locked you in my house for eight hours that's so funny that's so funny
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black and unlimited to discover all the amazing black owned products that you can add to your daily
routine. Business I want to talk about work because I was very lucky that I had a mother like you
who was very very independently successful no nepro babies here you worked very very hard but you
all set a very unconventional way to success like you got you know it was crazy to hear when I
first went to you knew that you actually got asked to leave your university you got kicked out
from the economics department and now you are an economist and you are a very good economist
and you are also a CEO. What do you think was some of the hardest parts about breaking into that
male dominated industry? Well first of all let's not just slide over getting kicked out of uni
because I do actually think it's an important message I think there's so much pressure on
people at high school and in their 20s around you know going to uni and just doing everything
getting amazing grades you know paying for a life that's more and more expensive by the day
you know and doing all the extra curricular stuff so that you end up with a CV that gets you into
a job that you want right and I just think this you know there's just so much pressure on I think
and to understand where you're going and what you think you should be doing so I actually
make a point of talking about the fact that it took me you know quite a few years to get through
uni I was fortunate didn't cost what it cost you guys now but I did fail two years of university
because I had no idea what I wanted to do so I actually started off doing a psychology degree
double double degree and really struggled when I was doing a whole bunch of sport and athletics
and just didn't know what I wanted to do decided I didn't want to be a clinical psychologist
but yeah it was just sort of floundering you know when I came out of uni I couldn't I couldn't
get a job interview why because your grades were so bad like transcript was crap and yeah I'd
done all these other things and I'd worked and I you know I had competed successfully in athletics
and blah blah blah but you know it was just on a wing at a prayer for me to go well those grades
don't reflect who I who I really am and they're like well whatever so I took a year off and worked
for the awhile traveled overseas um which was a great experience I you know I met some people who
just didn't have the opportunities that I had including a young woman studying um economics
you know in a in Turkey of all places who was just never going to have the opportunities that I had
and so I came back and um started studying again to sort of show that I could get through it and
then ended up really enjoying it so I guess you know the risk of sort of waffling on a bit about it
I do think it's um an important message for people to life isn't a straight line and as long as
you're sort of learning and growing and heading in a direction that you're enjoying you know just
keep going with it and when it stops working then go and do something else it's so interesting
because you have lived so many lives that like I wasn't there for like I always think about how
you know I've known you my entire life but you've only known me for the last 24 years
and there were all these things that happened before me that you have like a little wisdom from
like you were my age once and like just going through the same level of like confusion and like
big life changes and I do think that's a really nice message and I think that's one that you really
always instilled in us of like there is not a clear blueprint for what creates a good life
you're allowed to like take time to figure it out and obviously we're all kind of doing that now
like what is this job I don't know what this this wasn't a job when I was a kid actually it kind
of was do you remember we used to always listen to the radio this year in life I love that show so
I feel like that was such a huge inspiration did you experience a lot of like imposter syndrome
going back to uni or when you were applying for jobs again because your transcript was so
not great well it's really it's really funny like on imposter syndrome yes all through my career
and you know I've done I've chopped and changed a little bit and absolutely like I can
like imposter syndrome when I started my first job because I started at federal treasurery and
you know to get in there was you know challenging and they were you know my cohort of grads was
just so impressive like in some ways I was pretty focused on what I wanted to get out of that
I had a really clear objective and so in some ways I kind of ignored a whole bunch of other stuff
like if I'm really honest and you know back to the question about feminism or whatever like I had a
goal and I just ran hard at it and in some ways I was you know people sort of said to me well you're
sort of singular singular focus on that opportunity you know was probably too much and whatever but
you know I don't think they would have said that if I was a man to be honest and it worked away so
it worked yeah you are now but so it was like you were doing economics which at the time like
a bit of a boys game and then also business is like like commerce kind of a commerce side of it as
well yeah I mean I think I'm sorry can I I'm sorry I interrupt I also wanted to come back on the
imposter syndrome and my results when I when I was interviewed for treasurery the person who
was interviewing me asked me precisely once about those my results and they and they said what
happened here and I told them and that was it and it never what did you say you're just like I
just didn't know what I wanted yeah I said I was doing all these other things I had way too much
on I didn't know what I wanted I was floundering I came back with intent and here's the results
and and that and that was fine and and sorry to come back the reason I wanted to come back to that
is because fast forward a few years later when I was actually interviewing graduates for treasurery
there was a bunch of people being put on piles who whose results kind of looked a bit like mine
and I wanted to interview one or two of them and a few people in the room were just like no way
and so I fast up and said well you wouldn't I wouldn't be here like don't you want to like there's
one person in particular I was looking at their results and they'd gone from in a really poor results
to just knocking out of the park and I said don't you want to know what happened there
don't you because that switch has flipped and I want to know what's gone on and what this person
is up to because that's the person I want to talk to and so again it was just a kind of an
interesting life lesson if you like boys boys jobs yeah like I probably treasurery there were
fair few female grads and you know we were very focused on making sure we continue to recruit them
so yes it was male dominated it was more that I had opportunities to be in really interesting
meetings where everyone who was more senior was male and yeah that was good um it's I mean
maybe this is a funny sidebar but my my name is Melinda um people sometimes call me male but at work
I and particularly at treasurery when I was at treasurery that's when I decided people had to call
me Melinda because I think as male sounds like a male as well that was too dismissive oh really
I went into my male Boston to do some one day and said oh this is male and it was just sort of
this it was just a throwaway line and I thought I can't have that throwaway line and so I so you
needed the extra syllables for the extra legitimacy well it was but it was just all part and parcel
of how you presented yeah I actually agree with that um so I just thought I can't have in just
saying that the and you know we work closely together but it just felt like it was the trivialization
of of my introduction so yeah so you're kind of like at this point in your career now where you just
I'm sure you feel pretty secure like you're a bit of a boss bitch it's true though and I know
that like that word like like she's such a boss like what does it like go a boss it's go a boss
um is like kind of funny because it's now like yeah it's used very dismissively like your go boss
um but having come through so many stages and like I don't think you're gonna retire anytime soon
unless you you are and then that's a surprise for me what advice would you give me right now at
this stage in my career and I know it's very different to what you're what you were doing at 24
like you hadn't even graduated at 24 had you no you wouldn't have you would have just gotten your
masters oh I graduated a couple of degrees but what what what what what you doing what what
advise would you give me at this stage well can I can I ask a slightly different question and then
what can I respond to a question you have an ask and then I'll respond to that question
you're asking the questions now you're taking over the show well you can't if you want no I'm
joking you can totally do that the one thing just just a reference to sort of being the sort of
boss bitch language or whatever or label or boss girl boss or whatever you want to call like I do
the I think I did want to say there's one thing I've really enjoyed about um leading an organization
is being able to sort of set the tone in the values and I think people can think about a
whole bunch of things that being a CEO means or whatever and there's a lot of there's different
responsibilities but probably the one thing I I didn't really think about and underestimated
was that was the sense of satisfaction that you get out of kind of being able to set the tone
for an organization yeah and I think the reason it's I'm kind of I'm using as a bit of a segue
into your question because I think it's like it's it's caused me to sort of reflect on how you set
your tone through your career and and I guess that's um that would be my kind of advice I guess is to
you know to think about you know who you are and what sort of person you want to be through the
work that you do um and and to not be necessarily confined by thinking about a particular role
or a particular point in your career but to you know think about the things that you enjoy doing
because you do them well and because you can have an impact whatever that is and just that
that sort of tone and the values and the way you want to live your life to to find ways to live
that through work um and that's probably something that I've you gain a confidence to be able to
do through your career and when I look back you know it's probably one of the things you feel
less confident doing when you're you know early on in a job or whatever that you sort of feel
sometimes you have to behave a particular way or be in a particular role um and you know I was
a company director at a very young age I was the only woman on on the first board sir I joined
and there's certainly a lot of pressure to sort of be the persona of that and and I guess that's
probably my bit of advice if if you can find a way to do that faster than I did that would be my
my advice oh to find like your mission well like you're like but what's it just just to be
to be who you are and to know that that's you know you don't have to be the you know the
the persona you don't have to perform that role in the way other people have performed that role
or be that person or and so it's just trying to you know be true to who you are as a person
and and bring that into your work um is is probably what I'd I'd put on the table thanks mom I
appreciate the advice I now I think that's all the questions that I have are there any more questions
you would like to ask yourself if you feel the need no no no that's it you're yeah that's good
I'm glad I feel like we covered a lot of bases here we talked about motherhood we talked about
we talked about feminism we talked about how you were a terrible parent and everything I have
to blame you for just kidding nothing was the answer um so thank you so much for coming on
absolute pleasure I could think of nothing else I'd rather be doing yeah well I'll
that's so sweet why don't make me embarrassed and like oh thanks mom no it was actually so
nice and I feel like it's so nice that we'll have this for like it will be on the internet for a while
and we can listen back to this when I'm thinking about putting you in a home or something oh I remember
you can just play it on repeat and I'll feel happy oh I'm not going to put you in a home do you
want to be putting a home depends depends you may want to put me in a home no I won't for as long
as possible in the eight months I'm looking forward to coming and sleeping on your couch tomorrow oh my
gosh yeah my mom's coming to stay in my new place tomorrow it's very comfy I actually had a lie
down on it before I did I tested it for you perfect I can't believe I'm making you sleep on the couch
but unfortunately the bed's taken well thank you again for coming on as always if you enjoyed
this episode please feel free to leave a five star review on apple podcasts spotify wherever
you're listening right now share it with a friend if they would like to hear it and if you have
any further episodes suggestions questions for my girl boss mom um please feel free to DM me on
Instagram at that psychology podcast or my personal at gemis bag and we will be back next week for
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