Pastor Noah Heron of Wade Church in Nashville, Tennessee.
What's up, brother?
What's up, man?
Honored to be here.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me.
How about that dinner last night?
I'm still basking in the glory, you might say.
Well, I was pretty happy with...
Decision to go for sushi.
Yeah.
As I was preparing for this podcast, you know, we decided on sushi weeks ago.
Sure.
I made the reservation.
It's currently Steph and I's favorite sushi spot in Austin, Uchiko.
Yeah.
And I was on your website just going through some stuff.
Yeah.
And, like your blurb says, like one of your favorite things to do is finding the best sushi spot in Nashville.
For sure.
For sure.
I was like, oh, we're good.
Locked in.
We're good.
I was very excited about the sushi spot because, for those of you listening, it was planned six weeks ago.
And when Nick was like, hey, let's have you on the podcast.
We'll go eat dinner.
He literally said, I just made a reservation here and sent the spot.
It's pretty rare for me to reserve a spot at a restaurant six weeks out.
So I knew like you've been thinking about this meal for six weeks.
Oh yeah.
And it did not disappoint.
It was absolutely incredible.
I think we had every single type of nigiri on the menu.
It was amazing.
Well, ordering sushi for me is such a... an experience.
Yeah.
Like growing up, I'm from a small town in central Pennsylvania.
We had one sushi spot, which was in the town next to us.
Wow.
It was called Wasabi.
Wow.
And we would go get sushi once a year.
Yeah.
Special.
Yeah, it was special and we'd order like Chicken teriyaki and maybe like a California roll.
And then as I got older, I was introduced to...
All you can eat sushi and more advanced rules.
And then nigiri.
Yep.
So when Steph and I go for nigiri, for sushi, it's a few rules.
Sure.
But I'll look at the menu and I don't even know what I'm ordering.
Like three of these, nine of these, 12 of those.
And then I'm hoping like we ordered the right amount.
Yeah because regardless, whatever gets put on the table, we're throwing it back, we're in yeah, and Steph goes one for one with me.
She went, we all went one for one last night.
Yeah, pretty much for the most part totally, and it fueled our run this morning.
It was fantastic.
Our sauna and plunge it's been a great.
It's been a great 24 hours last couple yeah, last couple days together for sure, But I really appreciate you making the time
Absolutely, man.
And coming to the podcast.
Steph and I had the amazing opportunity to visit Wade Church a few months ago when we were in Nashville.
And love what you guys are doing.
Thank you, man.
I mean, the worship was powerful and so intentional.
I know you guys are expanding and building something absolutely amazing.
I really enjoy your sermons, your messages.
To be able to witness it in person was great, but I also keep up with your podcast.
I keep up with your sermons on iTunes.
I listen to them all the time because they're so clear, there's no fluff, they're scripture based and there's always for me a very clear takeaway that wakes me up in the moment of where I am, and that's typically a morning run log in five to eight miles.
Yeah Well, thank you, man.
That means a lot.
It's cool what God's doing for sure.
When we moved to Nashville, we were expectant.
We weren't gonna pick up our family and move somewhere, thinking that we were gonna be a part of something that God wasn't in.
And anytime God's in it.
I really believe that he wants it to be something that we have to depend on him to do.
Like, I don't think God's ever gonna call you to something that you don't need him for.
And with that, I think oftentimes it's stuff that's bigger than you.
Like it's stuff that We have this phrase at our church called only God, like we wanna live lives.
Only God could get the credit for.
And so when we moved to Nashville, we were very much of that mindset of like, we know God's called us, we know that this is gonna make an impact, but what has happened the first two and a half years of our church has blown our minds.
Like, just truly like.
There's no way that a person or a group of people could get the credit for what God's doing.
It is truly the Lord that is doing something in Nashville right now.
And yeah, it was super cool for you guys to come.
I think you guys came on.
It was like the Sunday that we did the Christmas thing with the kids, which is always my favorite Sunday.
You just never know what's gonna happen, so.
You kind of alluded to this last night at dinner, but I didn't pry on it.
And I'm curious now, you said it was kind of an interesting story of how you got to Nashville.
Yeah.
Where were you before Nashville?
Yeah.
And then why Nashville?
So we were in Atlanta for about two years leading up to Nashville.
I served on my dad's church, on my dad's staff at his church.
And...
We were there for two years.
I kind of did full-time traveling ministry.
So I actually preached a hundred different places in the last year before we moved to Nashville.
It was like way too much travel, but this was pre-kid.
And Matty would go on a lot of them with me.
And it was so fun.
It was so fun.
Different cities, different churches.
And we actually were exposed to so many different great pastors and great churches that we were inspired by.
And we would go, oh man, we really liked the way that they run their staff meeting.
Or we really liked the way that they structured their service or the way he preaches.
And we were just constantly like all these data points of like this is what we wanna start in Nashville.
And we felt like we were called to plant a church.
I felt like I was called to plant a church.
That means start a church, by the way.
One time I told someone I was a church planter and they thought I did church landscaping.
So I have to preface it.
But when I was 21 years old, I was being discipled by a church planter and it didn't make any sense to me.
I was like, why did you start a church?
That sounds like the riskiest.
Like you could just go work at a church.
Like, why would you do this?
And he said that he felt like church planters were kind of like the Navy SEALs of the kingdom of God that you just jump out of an airplane and hope you hit a bird.
And the moment he said that I remember with this little Starbucks in Cleveland Tennessee, there was like something in my heart that was like I like that, I wanna be like that.
I wanna have the kind of faith to jump out of an airplane and hope that Jesus takes over.
And so we felt that early on and ultimately Nashville it came down to we got some advice from a mentor.
He said, plant in the city that you love the most, because when the ministry gets hard you won't be tempted to leave.
Um and.
So when he said that we had already fallen in love with Nashville uh Maddie, my wife looked at me and she was like we're moving to Nashville.
And, uh, we moved about six months after that.
Oh, wow.
So it's funny.
You bring up Navy SEALs.
Yeah.
I recently had DJ Ripley on the podcast.
Tier one operator.
He was a Navy SEAL and then spent time with DevGrew.
Wow.
Yeah.
Just an impressive operator.
And I asked him the question what separates tier one operators from the rest of the conventional military?
Sure.
And he said, commitment to the craft.
Wow.
And if you think about what it takes to plant a church and be a pastor and held to this higher standard, It requires commitment to the craft, commitment to the skill, commitment to the word, commitment to the relationship with Jesus Christ.
And without it you cannot be a tier one operator, a tier one pastor, a follower, a teacher, a believer.
Yeah, absolutely, man.
I think-
I think for being a pastor, it's like The thing.
If there was like a one thing.
Are you familiar with the concept of the one thing?
Where it's like... Like the book?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Okay, so... It's been a while since I've read the one thing.
Yeah, it was like... I should reread that actually.
It was pretty like revolutionary for me.
When I picked it up in my early 20s of like, I didn't know what my one thing was.
I didn't know what I wanted it to be.
But...
Basically for people who are listening, who aren't familiar with the book, there's like one thing that you could do every single day that moves the needle for whatever you do the most right.
Whether it's spiritually or professionally.
You kind of like strip down reverse, engineer your goals down to the one thing you can do every day.
That moves the needle.
And when I first got into ministry, I thought the thing that would move the needle was my knowledge about the Bible, my knowledge about the word, which is so important.
Like I'm not saying that it's not.
But the longer that I'm in the game, the longer that I'm pastoring, I really think the one thing is what can I do today to fall a little bit more in love with Jesus?
And that is the one thing, because I actually think the greatest thing a pastor or a dad or a business leader can give to their family, their church, their business, is actually their relationship with Jesus.
Like that's the most powerful thing you can give your people is when you're around them And you're the same person on the microphone that you are in the lobby, or you're the same person in the board meeting that you are in the gym.
I think people see that and they go, I want to be like that.
What do they have?
Uh, It reminds me of this scripture in Proverbs.
It says that those who refresh others, will they themselves be refreshed?
And it's like when you're around someone who's really in love with Jesus, you just are like so refreshed by them that you then wanna go refresh others and you wanna be someone that is refreshing, like them.
And so it's been like a real, like mindset shift for me of like some days.
The thing that I do that does make me fall the most in love with Jesus is read the word
And then, some days, the thing that made me fall more in love with Jesus was going on a walk with no music, with no agenda other than to just listen to the Lord.
Some days it's listening to a sermon.
Some days it's listening to this podcast and being like wow, like hearing Nick and Steph's story just encouraged me so much in my relationship with the Lord.
And it's like, when you're falling in love with Jesus, the rest of it falls in place.
That's what I think.
Why do you think people sometimes fall out of love with Jesus?
And I think in many things that we do in life, you discover this new thing.
Maybe that's a hobby.
Maybe that's like a newfound passion or a new skill.
Maybe it's being saved by Christ and there's this fire.
I don't want to say the fire burns out, but it goes from being this like wildfire to then being a steady maintainable, sustainable fire.
Totally.
But in some people's fire burns out.
Yep.
They give up on the sport.
Yep.
They give up on the hobby.
Yep.
They give up on following.
Yep.
When it comes to following Christ.
Why do people fall out of love?
Yeah, it's actually, it reminds me of the book of Revelation.
There's this critique of churches from Jesus, and he critiques this one church and he says you fell out of love.
Like you lost your first love is his critique and the first love being him.
And I really think what you see is like a lot of times, a new believer.
They have the most passion out of anyone in the church they go to.
Like they respond to every altar call.
If there's an altar call, they're the ones that are in the front row.
They're the ones that are amening, they're journaling, they're in the small group.
And a lot of times the people who've been following Jesus the longest are the opposite.
They're kind of like, if we're just being honest, they're the most rude.
And I really think there's two main things.
I think the first one is I'm convinced that passion following Jesus is directly tied with how often you remember what he did for you.
So those people who just gave their life to Jesus, they've had a fresh taste of the grace of God.
And they are just, I cannot believe what Jesus did for me.
I cannot believe that he would die on a cross for my sins and pay the penalty of death for me.
And then you followed Jesus for 20 years and you've heard the message of grace.
You've heard the cross.
You've heard every sermon under the sun and you just kind of take it for granted a little bit more.
You get used to it a little bit more.
And I think that that is like something that we all have to push back on.
And we just have to constantly remind ourself of how good Jesus is.
The other part of it and I think this one is really.
It was revolutionary for my relationship with Jesus is, I think, a lot of us.
What we do is we focus on our love for God.
So we're like if I could just love God more today.
That's how I'm going to stay on fire, for God is loving him more.
But our love is so inconsistent.
I mean, like even those of us who are, like the most disciplined and we try really hard to love God, our love eventually falls like it falters.
It's flaky, it's inconsistent.
And so it's conditional, absolutely.
And it's not a good foundation for you to build your life on, your love for God, it matters.
But a much more solid foundation is to build your life on God's love for you, because it's unconditional.
It never fails.
It's strong every single day.
It's not dependent on performance.
It's not dependent on my past.
It's dependent on the fact that God's heart is for me.
And so what I've been trying to do for the last five years is to remind myself and to learn more about God's love for me because inevitably, what happens is the more I learn about God's love for me, the more I love him.
And the more I learn about God's love for me, the more I want to do the things that God wired me to do and created me to do.
Like my obedience to the Lord, my faithfulness to the Lord, comes out of a place of me just naturally wanting to do it, versus like I've got to do this thing because this is what the Bible says.
It's like, I want to do this thing because I love God back.
Does that make sense?
It makes sense.
On your first point, of what we constantly need, this reminder of the sacrifice that Jesus made for us.
I felt that re-ignition of fire, Not to say that my fire burnt out, but when I was initially saved, I mean the whole house was in flames.
In a good way, you're saying.
In a great way.
Yeah, yeah.
In like the best way possible.
Yeah.
And then it became this steady burn after that.
And I settled into this new life and...
It's like, okay, I got to have some endurance.
As we were talking about previously, there's no finish line to this journey.
And for much of my life I have approached it as here's the milestone I need to get to, here's the finish line I need to get to.
This is different.
This is an ever-evolving, growing, learning relationship and journey.
But come Easter, this Easter felt very different than any Easter before.
Where I felt the sacrifice that Jesus made for us.
And it was a very heavy Easter.
And... this reignition of the fire was kickstarted and relit again.
It's like, man, he died for us.
Yeah.
Of like this brutal death, this crucifixion.
And it was as you were explaining that I kept thinking back to man what I felt Easter morning was.
It was like the same thing I felt when I was initially saved.
So finding ways to remember, to remind ourselves, this is why we follow him.
This is the sacrifice he made for us.
It is not to be taken lightly.
And it can't just become like part of the norm.
I was listening to a podcast Easter morning that was kind of explaining this.
And it's really easy.
I mean, I did for much of my life.
Easter is just another holiday.
And yeah, Jesus rose.
And it's like this bubbly, happy conversation and talk, but there's a lot of deep pain and sacrifice rooted in that and like to recognize and respect that I think is really important absolutely man, it's a crazy story and every time we get to Easter, like I think about, I think really hard about, like Saturday in the Easter story of like, Saturday is the day that gets skipped often when we talk about Easter, like 2000 years ago, Saturday was a horrible day.
It was like the day that all the people who did believe in Jesus were like, wait, he's still dead.
Like this guy that we picked up and followed and sold everything to follow and gave up our old life to follow and thought he was going to set us free to follow.
He's in a grave like every other person.
It was like a real day of disappointment.
And I actually am so encouraged by Saturday because there was a time when this picture of Christianity was painted for me of like puppies and rainbows, kind of.
It's like everything's just always gonna work out exactly how it's supposed to and there's gonna be no trouble.
And that's clearly not the story that we see in the Bible.
And it's actually really encouraged me in times where things aren't going well and I am discouraged and it feels like the timeline doesn't match my expectations, to just be reminded that even on Saturday, in my disappointment, God is still working.
Like God still has the final say.
And often man, it's like in those seasons of disappointment is actually where I've grown the closest to the Lord.
It's like when I've gotten to know him in a way that was much deeper than in the mountaintop season, where everything was going great.
It was like I almost needed a season where everything was dark for me to just be like man.
I don't have another option but to run to the Lord.
And I hope that He can handle this mess in every single time He has.
And that makes Easter so much more special to me is that it's not just a story of Jesus rising from the dead, but it's this story of Jesus ultimately proving that he always does have the final say, even on the other side of disappointment.
Yes.
Something I've been thinking on recently.
I was having this conversation with a mentor.
This past week was about appreciating the storm that you're in.
And the conversation we were having was in reference to the gospel.
After Jesus fed the 5000 and they got on the boat and there was a storm and the disciples were asking Jesus to stop the storm.
And I often find myself if I think about like the last decade of my life.
I've been in a storm for the last decade of building a business and being an entrepreneur and building anything.
You're just constantly.
You're battling battles and fights and blocking and tackling on a daily basis.
As my mentor and I were having this conversation, he was challenging me to really appreciate the storm that I'm in, because this storm is shaping me.
God might be using this storm to shape me into the person he wants me to be.
And we were kind of talking about this at dinner last night and you brought up a proverb and it really
It really resonated with me last night.
And as I woke up this morning, I went and reread it and just like sat with it for a while.
And it was Proverbs 14.4.
Hmm.
Where there are no oxen, the manger is empty.
But from the strength of an ox come abundant harvests.
And I sat with this for a while and I'd love for you to kind of break down and explain it.
But my interpretation is if we apply it to our life, We want comfort.
We want cleanliness.
We don't want the mess of our environment or other people or relationships.
And that sounds great.
Yeah.
But when we have that, there's emptiness.
That's right.
We need the hardship.
We need the discomfort.
We need the relationship management and to be challenged and pushed to have abundant harvests.
That's right.
And I was sharing this with one of, with the entire creative team this morning.
And the question I was asked and I didn't know how to respond.
So I'm like I'm curious your thoughts on this.
What are the abundant harvests that we are getting in the context of this scripture?
It's great, man.
It's one of my favorite scriptures because like you said, we would all prefer the cleaner route.
We'd all prefer no friction.
We'd all prefer things to just go up into the right and whatever area of life we're talking about.
When I read that scripture, I'm reminded I can have impact or I can have no friction, but I can't have both.
So the context that I think of is mostly relational when it comes to that verse.
I think about the oxen as people, no offense people.
Oxen are great animals.
They do great things.
But like that's what I'm thinking of is like so much of the mess of life comes from us being in relationship with other broken people like us.
And so when we're in those relationships, it can feel like man, like this is a really hard conversation I'm having to have today with a coworker, or this is a really difficult season that my friend is going through, that I feel like I'm supposed to walk with them through this.
But man, this is a mess and this has added stress and tension to my life and it has nothing to do with me, but I feel like I'm supposed to go through this.
It feels messy.
And you can either remove yourself from that.
But if you do that, you also remove yourself from the opportunity to impact their life, to plant seeds that might bloom immediately.
They might bloom 10 years later.
They might bloom long after you're in relationship with that person.
One of my favorite scriptures is Galatians 6, 9.
It says don't grow weary of doing good, for at the proper time you'll reap a harvest if you don't give up.
What I love about that scripture is like, we've got one job, which is to not give up.
And then all of the other results are up to the Lord.
It's like the actual fruit.
I've been thinking about John 15 this week, which is Jesus, when he says that he's the vine and we're the branches.
And his command is just remain in me and you will bear much fruit.
And the thing about a branch is it never has to strive to be a branch, it just stays connected to Jesus.
Just stays connected to Jesus, it just stays investing in people and the fruit happens naturally because of that.
So fruit could be.
Hey, there's someone on my team or there's someone that works for me or I work for that.
I'm just consistently like a person who encourages them.
I'm just consistently in their mess with them.
When they have hard days, they tend to come to me to talk to me.
I try to encourage them, whatever it is.
Maybe they don't have a relationship with Jesus right now, but maybe five years from now, when their life hits rock bottom, they remember who the rock at the bottom of your life was.
And they go, hey, Nick, dude, I'm struggling.
And every time I've ever struggled in the past with smaller things, you always had this piece about you.
Can you tell me where you got that?
And then boom, gospel opportunity, fruit from years of messy stable.
You know, messy, messy situations, hard conversations, or maybe it's sooner than that.
You know, maybe it's they already follow Jesus, but it's like you're getting in the mess with them and they're realizing man, I actually follow religion.
I didn't have a relationship with Jesus.
I was just doing things because I thought I was supposed to do it.
But- as followers of Jesus, we have this crazy thing.
There's no other religion like this where we're immediately saved and then also immediately called.
So we're immediately saved.
And then Jesus is like okay, now I'm gonna turn you into a fisher of men, go and help other people find me.
And that's what I think about with that.
Scripture is like That's messy work going and sharing the gospel and encouraging people.
I wanted to touch on this later in the conversation, but this feels like a good time.
You know, we know...
Ephesians 2, 8 through 9, that we are saved through faith.
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith.
And this is not from ourselves.
It is a gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.
Yeah.
So when you read and hear something like this, it's not by our works.
Yeah.
It is by grace.
You've been saved through faith.
Yeah.
But then, on the contrary, you read something like James 217 faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead.
Totally.
So how do you respond to, this is the one faith, this is the one religion, where we are saved...
It is by grace you are saved through faith.
But it does not mean that faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead.
How do you respond to that?
So I think it's really about the order.
And I think both are actually absolutely true.
It kind of goes back to what we were saying a few minutes ago about falling in love with Jesus.
So the best way I know how to describe this is when Maddie and I got married, I didn't do any chores around the house because I just I don't know what I was thinking.
I wasn't thinking, that's what was happening.
And one day I came home from work And she was extremely upset with me.
She was like, I asked you to do the laundry last night.
You did not do the laundry.
You haven't done any laundry since we got married.
I mean, she was letting me have it and I deserved it.
I was just very late.
I watched sports when I came home from work and I did nothing.
And so she, the next day she was gone for like three or four hours.
And I thought, I am going to do every single piece of laundry in this house.
And what I did is I like left all of it folded on the bed so that she could see that I had done it.
And so dumb.
And when she came home, she had never in our entire relationship been so excited about what she saw.
Like she started trying to kiss me.
I mean, it was like, I was like, you need me to vacuum?
Like what else do you need?
But I learned in that moment that great relationships require effort, that if you wanna have a relationship that actually thrives, you can't just be like well, I hope that this gets better.
And then you don't put effort into the relationship.
And what I think about those two scriptures is our relationship with Jesus can only start because of what he did for us.
It is only started by our faith and belief that he actually is God, that he actually did die on the cross, that he actually did raise from the dead and that it counted for us.
Like that is the only way you can begin a relationship with Jesus.
But because you love him, you naturally want to put in effort into the relationship.
You naturally want to get to know him.
And the more you get to know him, the more you fall in love with him, the more you're going to start doing the things that he wired you and called you to do.
And so this, like James is, I love the book of James.
It's like one of the most like hard nose, like this direct to the point relationship.
I love the books of the Bible.
It's amazing.
And I love it because it's a reminder that this journey of following Jesus I really think the audience he was speaking to is not dissimilar to American Christianity, which has slipped into a little bit of how can it, slipped into a little bit of what can I get out of following Jesus versus here's everything that I have.
Jesus, you're the Lord of my life.
And I really think what he's saying is like, hey, like, you're just making this all about you.
It's time to get some skin in the game here.
Like you call yourself a follower of Jesus like, do the things that he did, like follow in his footsteps.
Like you say, you're a follower, but you just, you're just.
You look like you did before you accepted Christ.
Yeah, that's good.
Dude, it makes me think of...
Steph's birthdays.
Steph is a big like holiday, birthday, make a moment experience.
Lots of balloons.
Yes.
Like balloons, cards.
And I have historically for our entire relationship failed.
Yeah, all she's ever wanted is flowers and a card.
Yeah, and I'll be very honest.
Like I have failed many times, I've gotten caught up in my life and work yeah, in my training and it's 11 pm the night before the big day and I'm like crap.
I did it again.
I did it again.
So I'll go like make something on the computer, or like I'll make a custom card which is like a piece of paper folded over and I'll write some stuff on it.
Custom does make it sound better.
It does.
It does.
But she knows.
Yeah.
I forgot.
Not even that I forgot.
I just didn't care enough.
Yeah.
And I hate to say that, but it's the truth.
So, her birthday was three weeks ago.
Okay.
And I was like, I'm doing it big this year.
Like, I'm making up for... Like, this is the new standard.
Yeah.
I did it all, dude.
I got one of those companies to come and do the sign in your yard.
Oh yeah, it's like happy birthday, steph.
She's into tennis right now, so there's a tennis ball on it.
Come on.
I got flowers delivered.
I got custom cupcakes done wow uh, i took the day off of work.
I got her a birthday present.
We went into austin, we went into the spa.
Uh, she's been craving like a chicken Caesar wrap.
So I found the best chicken Caesar wrap spot.
Wow.
Austin.
I could find we went to this like natural regenerative butcher and grocery shop.
Afterwards got coffee.
Uh, she wanted homemade burgers and fries for dinner.
I did that.
I did it all.
And yeah, She was so happy.
Wow.
Not because of like what I got her and it was the thought, it was the intention, it was the works.
Yeah.
Like she knows I love her.
Yeah.
But it was the action that I took that like reinforced that. the love that I have for her.
And that was an eye-opener for me because I watched how it made her feel.
Like, man, I could have been doing this for a long time.
And I didn't because I relied on the fact that we got married.
I'm committed.
We're already good.
We're good.
We're wearing our rings.
Yeah.
What else do we need?
Right.
And I was so wrong, but I resonate with that.
Yeah.
And the way that it aligns with faith and works and deeds makes so much sense.
Yeah.
It's faith first.
If you try to do works first, there's no relationship with God.
Your works can't earn it.
Like it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter how, what your spiritual pedigree is, who your dad is, who your mom is, how much money you've made.
It just doesn't matter.
It's like you got faith is first.
And then, once we realize that it's his works that did it, not ours, then we naturally want to do things that he's called us to do.
Yeah.
I'm curious, running a church in Nashville Tennessee, Which I mean as a whole.
You know we spent a nine-month sabbatical in Nashville.
Yeah.
In 2023.
I like that.
Nine-month sabbatical.
The people in that area, it's different.
Mm-hmm. you know, Steph and I were in, we were visiting Franklin a few months ago.
We're in a coffee shop and there was like this group of mid 20 year old girls that came in.
Yeah.
And they were dressed very Southern.
Yeah.
Proper.
They were all carrying their Bibles.
We're like, Wow, this is like really awesome to see.
Yeah.
Especially when you compare two parts of Austin, Texas.
Sure.
Just being very honest.
But Way Church has a younger audience demographic.
We do.
What problems do you see that the younger population is struggling with when it comes to their faith and their relationship with Christ?
Or the world.
I would say the biggest one, and it's so encouraging that you saw those girls carrying their Bible around, because I would actually say that the biggest issue with younger Christians is biblical literacy, meaning that they don't always know what the Bible actually says.
And the reason that that's really dangerous is because there are so many things whether on social media or conversations that you're having with people that people can say that sound really really good and valiant and loving, that are actually super contradictory to what the Bible says.
I have a mentor who told me 10 years ago.
He said Noah, there's coming a day where people are gonna set aside the Bible in an attempt to become more like Jesus.
And what he was saying is like there are going to be things that people think Jesus would do or Jesus would say, because they sound like the most loving thing that you could do.
And because they don't actually know what Jesus said and did 2000 years ago, they're just gonna do that thing that sounds loving and tolerant and good now.
And they're going to miss who the real Jesus was.
Because if you're building your life on a Jesus, that's not from scripture.
You can call him whatever you want, but it's not Jesus.
And that's the danger that I see with young people is, whenever the word is not the foundation of who Jesus is in your life, you'll fill that foundation with feelings.
You'll fill it with whatever culture is filling it with.
And you'll have this kind of Jesus that has some stuff that's accurate and some stuff that's not, but ultimately you're going to end up in a place that is not the place that God wants you, because your truth is not coming from the word.
The way that I say it to our church all the time is that if Jesus said it 2000 years ago, he would say the same thing today, because the Bible tells us that he's the same yesterday, today and forever.
So if he was for it 2000 years ago, he'll be for it now.
If he's against it 2000 years ago, he'd be against it now.
And a lot of young people.
When talking about the things that Jesus is against, they get super uncomfortable.
Like, well, why would he be against that?
Well, why would he not want me to have that?
Why would he say no to that?
And what I'm trying to teach our church is that anytime Jesus says no in scripture, it's always because he has a better yes.
It's because the designer always knows how the design works best.
And so we have to like...
I really think lean in with the next generation of like, this is what the Bible says.
This is why it says it.
And ultimately this is why it's for your good.
And if we don't do that, I think what we're gonna see is just this continuation of a Jesus mixed with culture.
That is not actually who Jesus is.
Do you have any examples of that?
Yeah, I think sexuality is like the one that's like, It's like really, it's really prominent right now.
So like just an example would be a couple who comes to church and they're sleeping together.
You know they're living together.
But they're not married.
But they're not married and they don't see any problem with it.
They're like, I love her.
She loves me.
And we're going to get married one day.
Like, what's the big deal?
And it's like okay.
Well, first of all, like all throughout scripture, we see that God's design for sex is in the context of marriage.
Like ah, but like that means that I've got to like move out and like she's going to have to find her own spot and she's going to have to pay for that.
And like, that doesn't feel like a win.
That doesn't feel like, like Jesus would want us to have to pay twice the amount of money.
And it's like well, The whole reason Jesus said this is because a lot of people who are doing what you're doing this doesn't end in marriage.
This doesn't end in sacrificial love for each other.
Like there's a reason why sex was held out to the end, because a lot of times, the moment you start getting that, you stop serving the other person in the way that you should.
And but like, in the short term, it's just like well, you're gonna make us like completely upend our life.
Like that sounds so hateful.
And it's like, actually, it's the most loving thing that the Lord could do is cause you to move out.
And it's one of the reasons I tell people, like I'm for quick engagements.
Like if you know that you love them, like get married, like jump, like don't wait, like just go all in.
But that's like a pretty practical common example that I think we see a lot.
Have you had anyone at the church who came to way?
They weren't married, they were living together, they were sleeping together.
And then they were realizing that they made a mistake and Like went backwards?
Yeah.
So we had a couple that was invited to a small group.
They were living together.
They'd been dating for about a year.
And they just genuinely had no idea that it was a sin.
Like they didn't grow up in church.
So they gave the like- That's how Steph and I were.
Yeah, yeah.
Like we-
We moved in together before we were engaged.
Yeah.
And we didn't know.
Yeah.
A lot of people don't.
And it's like... the Lord has so much grace for that.
You know like I remember this couple in particular.
They actually both gave their life to Jesus at our church.
So they're like passionate, like we're talking about, like all this passion, just clueless about like anything the Bible says.
They're just like, Jesus died for my sins.
I have eternal life.
This is amazing.
And they start going to this small group.
And this was like right at the beginning of the church.
So we only had eight small groups at the time.
Now we have like I don't even know how many, but I went to one of them and I meet this couple and they're asking, like the most elementary Christian questions
And I think a lot of times people are like, oh, like they should know better.
But people who have real spiritual maturity.
When they're around people that are in sin like that and asking questions like that, it's the most encouraging thing, because it's like what better place for someone who's new to their faith, who doesn't know what the Bible says, to be asking those questions than around other Christians who are also trying to follow Jesus and live a life that's submitted to him.
What ended up happening is, about three months after they started coming to small groups, they moved out, they got their own places because they realized, like this isn't what the Lord has for us.
And they actually ended up breaking up like six months later.
And one of them is now engaged to another girl because it's been like a year and a half now.
And the other one is dating someone else.
Both are in healthy, like holy relationships that are honoring the Lord.
And the guy is the one that I'm the closest to naturally.
And he talks about how life-changing.
He was like I really think what would have happened between the two of us is we would have gotten married because we were so comfortable living together and so comfortable sharing what we were sharing.
I think we would have gotten married and I don't think that we were supposed to get married.
And we just couldn't see that when we were living together.
And it's like, so sometimes it ends up working out like really good.
Sometimes the relationship ends up ending, but it's like you can't argue with the results now of their life because they both are like.
We're so thankful that we moved out.
Yeah.
I think what happens with some people, couples sometimes is, Like say you start dating.
Yeah.
And then you move in together.
Yeah.
And then his becomes hers and hers becomes his.
Right.
Before they commit to each other and decide to get married.
Totally.
But here you are now in this situation where you're living together, you're not yet married.
Yeah.
You're starting to think, maybe this isn't the person for me.
Yeah.
But we're already in it.
Totally.
So it's going to be so much harder to get out of it than just to keep going.
Yeah.
All right, let's just take the next step.
Let's just get married now.
Let's keep going.
Because we're already in it.
Yeah.
And that's like an unfortunate place to be.
Yeah.
And I think that's one of the downfalls outside of listening to the word of God.
Yeah.
That could potentially lead to.
For sure.
I also want to say like if there's someone listening to this and you're living with your girlfriend or your boyfriend like it used to drive me crazy when I would like hear like pastors talk about like different sins or whatever.
Like I just want to be super transparent.
Like all have fallen short of the glory of God.
Like we could sit here and have a four hour episode of me just telling you all the things that I did that were against the will of the Lord.
And the really cool thing about the grace of Jesus is um all it takes is a moment of repentance to be forgiven.
And then you just turn and follow Jesus and do what he asks you to do.
And there's no condemnation for you.
So I just wanted to say that for anyone who might be in that season, because I know that there's a lot of people who are
Yeah, it's helpful.
Yeah.
I was sharing this with you earlier.
We've been talking about Pastor Joey Martin the last 24 hours.
Legend.
And I was listening to a podcast of his earlier this week.
And he was talking about how to read the Bible.
And I thought this was very helpful.
This would have helped me a long time ago, but he had three steps.
Like as you're reading the Bible, you ask yourself, like, what did I just read?
What just happened?
And that is the context.
Yeah.
And then the second question you ask, what does this mean?
The actual interpretation of the word.
Yeah.
Not your interpretation.
Right.
God's interpretation.
That's right.
The actual interpretation.
That's right.
And then number three, now what?
Yeah.
Like, how do I apply this to my life, what I'm doing?
Yeah.
And you said something earlier that I would love for you to kind of tap on again.
People start their journey of faith and it's like, what can God do for me?
Like, how do I, what do I get out of this?
Yeah.
As opposed to like, how do I glorify God?
Yep.
How do you help people understand like what that looks like and means and how to explore that?
Yeah, so like, I think Jesus very easily can become a means to an end.
It's like, I hear that he died for me.
That's amazing.
Yeah, like I trust you.
Like there's two places that I can spend eternity.
One is really high and one feels like San Diego.
Like, yeah.
I prefer the one that's not really hot.
Like I'll do that.
I follow you, Jesus.
And then like, you don't actually, you don't actually really have a relationship with the Lord.
You just are like using him to get to heaven.
Does that make sense?
And then all of a sudden you like start, basically Jesus becomes an accessory.
Like you wear the cross but- you don't follow him.
You wear the cross, but you don't ever do the things that he did.
And that's what like we're pushing back on is like, really following Jesus comes with a cost.
Like when Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me.
Those early disciples knew like this comes with a cost.
This is gonna cost our reputation.
This is gonna cost maybe our finances.
This is gonna cost maybe our plans, our decisions.
And ultimately, when you know that there's a cost following Jesus, you've gotta decide.
Do I wanna do this enough?
Like, I know we were talking about John 5, like, do you want to be healed?
In John 5, there's like this guy who's, he's been lame, he's been paralyzed for 38 years.
And it's like, that seems like a really obvious question of like, you've been lame for 38 years.
Of course you want to be healed, but Jesus doesn't ask dumb questions.
Like there was a reason he asked it.
And I think the reason he asked it we talked about this last night and this morning is because there's a comfortability that comes with your brokenness and with your consumerism even.
And following Jesus like really following Jesus.
It looks like giving him your most valuable possession.
Jesus can't be your most valuable possession until he has your most valuable possession.
And so it's like, for some people that's gonna be money.
And for other people, it's gonna be what they do, their vocation, their job.
And so what I'm not saying is like you have to quit your job or you have, to like, give away every dollar in your bank account.
What I am saying is that truly following Jesus looks like Jesus saying hey, like they're taking up an offering today and you're in the service and you hear him like tugging on your heart to give towards it.
You're not going.
No, like this is mine.
It's you going yeah, I'll give that 100 in the offering that he's asking me to do, because he's the Lord of my life, not my money.
Or oh okay, like you want me to go this direction in my business man, that's a really hard decision, but ultimately you're the Lord of my life.
And so I surrender all to you and I'm gonna do that.
Like I value your plans more than my plans.
That's what we're talking about.
It's like, I'm just, I'm...
He's not just someone who adds to my life, but he's somebody who, if he asks something from me, I willingly lay it down.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
I mean, everything is his.
Yeah.
My prayer time, like I explained to you, is in my sauna at night.
Yeah.
I love that, by the way.
Which I'm excited for you to get a sauna.
Me too.
It's like, it's a challenge being the first like 12 minutes of that prayer time is, it's very...
Present.
Yeah.
It's very deep.
The last three minutes, it's hard to focus on anything.
For sure.
So like you really got to go like... Well, we were in there today, man.
I was real close.
I was like, I don't know how much longer I can do this.
That's why I kept adding water on because I'm smoking them out before we get in the water.
But that's like, it's really... powerful time for me.
And when I'm in the sauna, I look out the way our sauna is set up.
It's in our backyard and I see our pool, I see our fire pit, I see the backyard.
I can see where my kids' room are.
Yeah.
And it creates the perfect backdrop for a place of gratitude.
And I sit in there.
I'm like I start every prayer off with Lord.
I'm so grateful for all the abundance, the security, the wealth that you've provided us.
It is more than I could ever want or ask for.
Yeah.
But all of this is yours.
Yeah.
That's great.
And One of the things that I was telling you about Chad Wright.
Yeah.
Chad Wright shared with me months ago and has become part of my prayer every day.
Is God, please conform me to the image of your son, Jesus Christ, at all costs.
Wow.
And I say this and I really mean it, take it all.
Take it all.
Wow.
If you want it.
The house, the money, all of it.
And when I walk into HQ and I'm oftentimes touring people they ask me the question how proud are you?
Like this is, you built this, this is all yours.
Yeah.
And I used to be like super prideful.
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
I worked really hard for this.
Yeah.
Look at it.
Yeah.
And I can honestly say, now when I'm asked that question, none of it's mine.
Wow.
It's not mine.
Wow.
None of it.
Yeah.
But that's been like a spiritual journey.
Yeah.
It did not happen overnight.
Yeah.
But that...
That was forged through the storms that I've been in and many of these storms in the last year that have helped me learn that.
Yeah.
Are you familiar with the parable of the talents?
I don't think so.
You should read it soon.
I think it's my favorite parable.
So like Jesus tells all these stories in the gospels that are called parables.
And there's one called the parable of the talents.
There's basically these three guys that he gives different talents to.
And talents in...
Bible times, it was like a certain amount of money.
So it's not like you're gifting, like we would think of the word talent now, but he gives each of them a different amount.
And basically he gives one a lot, one kind of a medium amount and one a little.
And the one with a lot and the one with the medium amount.
They go and they make a return on the talent that he gives them.
They go invest it and they bring back a return.
They multiply it.
And then the one with one talent was so afraid to lose it that he buries the talent.
And when Jesus comes back or not Jesus, but Jesus is telling the story.
So the man who represents Jesus in the story comes back and he's like, okay, what'd you do with it?
And he has to like dig it back up.
And he's like, look, I didn't lose it.
And the man in the story rebukes him. and basically tells him to leave.
Like he's very upset with him.
And when I hear you saying that, I think of like God's blessed you.
He's blessed all of us with a certain amount of talent, a certain amount of gifting, a certain amount of money, a certain amount of whatever it is.
And what he's looking for is stewards, not owners who realize like this is what he gave me.
I'm going to go make the biggest return on investment possible, meaning the greatest impact possible with what he's given me, whether that's the biggest impact through my finances, through my influence, through my time, through my gifting, whatever it is so that ultimately I can bring back.
And the thing that I always remind myself is you don't get to decide the amount of talent that God gives you.
The only thing you get to decide is will you bring him back an investment on it?
That's it.
Because we all get a different amount and some people can say that's fair, that's not, doesn't matter.
It's all his.
The person that you find yourself comparing yourself to the most that has more talent, or whatever the thing is, than you.
It's like it is the Lord's like you nailed it.
It's like, and when you realize it's all his.
It not only helps you have a better relationship with what he's given you, but it helps you have a better relationship with others to not compare, to not compete and just go.
Man, if we're all trying to steward this for the glory of God, we're all going to hear well done my good and faithful servant, which is the goal of our life.
Here's a question for you.
Yeah.
We all have been given these different levels of talent.
And I'm following, it's not for us to own.
It is for us to appropriately steward.
That's right.
How do you respond to someone that asks the question, this person has more talent than me.
Yeah.
And they're not a believer.
Yeah.
And they don't think the same way that I do.
And they're not doing to glorify God.
Yeah.
How am I supposed to think of that individual and what they have?
Yeah, I think our first posture as a believer should be not yet.
You know, like that's the heart that I think the Lord wants us to have is like they're not stewarding it for him yet because they haven't met the right person who's gonna lead them to Jesus.
That's fair.
There's this other proverb that says that the wealth of the wicked is laid up for the just, which means like there are people like that that I fully believe either haven't met Jesus yet, and they're going to meet Jesus.
And it's gonna be, you know, dude, you're a classic example.
I'm literally thinking that as you're saying that.
You're a classic example.
That's me.
Yeah.
In a nutshell.
Yeah.
So there's examples like you who it's like they just haven't had their encounter with Jesus yet, but one day that will be stewarded for his glory and praise God.
I think God uses all sorts of crazy circumstances where like, he blesses a thing and you don't see why he blessed it until way later.
I think there's other examples unfortunately, where people never follow Jesus, but that money doesn't go with them to where they're spending eternity.
And eventually it gets repurposed for God's kingdom.
Fairness, in the kingdom of God is a really slippery slope to mess with.
And the reason I say that is I saw, you know the number one like most questioned thing for people who don't follow Jesus, as far as like, the thing that they wrestle with is like, why do bad things happen to good people?
Why do good things happen to bad people?
You know, flipping it.
And there's so many reasons for that.
But even in the premise of the question there's kind of some like things that are messed up because according to the Bible there are no good people.
Like we've all fallen short of the glory of God.
There was only one good person and his name was Jesus and he willingly sacrificed himself for us.
And so just coming from that place of like hey, like I try to do good, but ultimately, like without Jesus, I can't like.
That's the first thing.
But the other thing is like because we live in a fallen world, that's the part that people really miss.
They're like, well, if, you know, if I'm following Jesus, why doesn't he bless my thing?
It's like, well, that's not the point of following Jesus is to be more blessed on earth.
Point of following Jesus is to go man.
I'm already the most blessed person of all time, because my eternity is secured.
And no matter what happens to me on this side of eternity, I am going to be with Jesus forever.
And so I just think like there are so many things that we won't know on this side of heaven as far as like why God chooses to do some of the things that he does bless some of the people that he blesses.
But I think the healthiest posture for our own soul is when we see someone that God's blessing.
If they're a Christian, I like to say it this way it's like Don't get upset when God blesses your neighbor, because it means he's in the neighborhood.
It's like, just celebrate, dude.
It's kind of like the ice cream truck.
I never got mad when the ice cream truck stuck to my neighbor's house.
I knew he was going to come to my house next.
Yeah, that's good.
That's like a healthy posture to have, I think.
That's good.
You brought up John 5 and I did want to talk about John 5.
Yeah.
My mentor and I were having a conversation this past week about John 5.
And he asked me the question, Nick, do you want to be healed?
In reference to the story of Jesus asking the paralyzed man, do you want to be healed?
He made me think about it in a way that I've never thought about before.
I've read this scripture before many times and I always just like read past it.
And I never tried to interpret what Jesus was actually asking this man.
And then, as I was preparing for this podcast, I went on your Instagram and I saw you made a reaction video to Theo Vaughn.
Yeah.
Which have you ever, he lives in Nashville, I believe.
Have you guys ever connected?
I met him one time, believe it or not, he was in a sauna at a place.
It was like a public place, a public gym that had a sauna.
And I opened the door to get in the sauna and he was sitting in there with headphones on and just looked up.
And I immediately closed the door because, like we kind of had nodded and it was just like I'm gonna let you do your thing.
And I turned around.
So I don't know that he would remember that, but I have met him.
It was just very brief.
When I was in Nashville, I was-
I was going to Soho house one day.
Yeah.
That's where it was.
That's where I met him.
Oh, it was?
Yeah.
He was passing.
He was walking past me as I'm walking past him like, oh my gosh, this is Theo Vaughn.
And as he's passing me, he stops.
He dabs me up, pulls me in, gives me a hug.
Wow.
What's up, brother?
And then just keeps walking by me.
And I walk up to the host that checks you in at SoHouse.
And I was like, that was Theo Bon.
And she goes, yeah, he does that to everyone.
But you made a reaction video.
I love that.
He's been sharing some really... some good stuff lately.
You can tell he's, he's really exploring.
He's hungry.
His faith.
Yeah.
In a very like authentic and genuine and vulnerable place.
I agree.
Which is cool.
But you made a reaction video and he was talking about John 5.
Yeah.
And, I mean, you can watch his gears turning.
For sure.
As he's explaining what this meant to him.
Yeah.
And as Jesus is asking this paralyzed man, do you actually want this new life?
Yeah.
Because life you have right now, you are being provided for.
You have comfort.
People are taking care of you.
As soon as I heal you, you won't have those things anymore.
Are you ready to endure and embrace what's on the other side of healing?
And as I was reading this and we were talking about it, I think a lot of us, myself included we say we want the other side.
Yeah.
We want to be healed, but then we don't take the action to get there because there's fear of what is on the other side.
That's right.
And the, the more I read the Bible, uh, To be honest, the more impressed I am by the golden nuggets.
You can reread the same chapter a thousand times.
Yeah.
And you pick up on something new every time.
Absolutely.
And it is the most beautifully written thing- It is.
Ever.
Yep.
And-
I think, like 20 years from now, I will still be mind blown by how much is in it that I actually don't see right now.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
It's the only book where the author is always present.
So the Holy Spirit is always there when you're reading it.
I think that's a big reason why we're always getting things out of it.
What was crazy about that Theo Vaughn clip?
First of all, I love that he, like in that clip that I reacted to, he says there's a story it's called John 5.
Yeah.
I just love the way he started that.
He is.
I believe this with all my heart.
Theo Vaughn is going to be an absolute force for the kingdom of God one day.
Like that's what I believe.
But- I would love to have a conversation with him.
Oh my goodness.
There's, yeah.
So I had just preached a sermon two weeks before on John 5.
So it was fresh.
It was like fresh on me.
And one of our team members, he's actually here with me.
His name's Andrew.
He sent me that clip and he was like, dude, you gotta respond to this.
Like one, he was like, this is incredible that he is wrestling.
And this is gonna encourage so many people that he is wrestling with the Bible and with what God says.
But two, he lives in Nashville and-
Maybe he would see this.
Maybe this would encourage him in his faith.
He was getting pushback, as you can imagine, for even bringing up the Bible.
And so we were just kind of like, let's put something out there that's like for this, that hopefully people see and encourage him in.
And we had tons of people who did that, but-
In order for you to pick up the new thing that God wants to do in your life, you've got to put down the old things.
And what you could see in Theo Vaughan and what I absolutely believe you could see in John 5 if we were there 2000 years ago, is this man healing would require me to put down so many old things.
And this isn't super popular to talk about in 2026.
In fact it like gets you canceled a lot of times on the internet, but it's so easy to have a victim mentality.
Oh yeah.
About like what you've been through.
And there is a difference between being a victim and having a victim mentality.
So a victim has something happen to them.
A victim mentality is when you let that thing happen to you for the rest of your life where, because that thing happened to you, it now affects every part of the way you think.
It affects the conversations you have, it affects the relationships with you have.
It becomes your identity.
It becomes your identity.
And I think that that's what happened with the paralyzed man, which is why Jesus had to ask him a question that seems so obvious.
Do you want to be healed?
38 years.
Bible scholars believe that he actually made good money as a beggar, that you can make great money in that area of town, that there was no real incentive for him to stop begging.
Like it just...
It makes me think of this, like if you're a victim who's listening to this.
You've had something bad happen to you.
As followers of Jesus, we have all the compassion in the world for you.
And so what we're not saying is that you need to toughen up.
We're simply saying that, because of what Jesus did for you, you can get up.
Like you don't have to stay there.
Like you have victory.
You are more than a conqueror through Christ Jesus is what the Bible says, which means that On the other side of you saying yes, I wanna be healed there is actually victory.
Like you can have a new identity.
You can be somebody, not just better, but alive.
Like the gospel is not about becoming better.
It's about becoming alive.
And when I think about the words of Jesus, I am the way, the truth and the life.
The life that he's talking about is the life that you've been looking for in all the wrong places.
You've been looking for in your old identities, but the life that Jesus offers is Zoe life, which is abundant life.
It's life to the fullest.
It's life that actually fulfills.
Do you remember the scripture?
I think it's in Matthew that talks about New wine, putting new wine in old wine skins.
Yep.
Yep.
And that, I've been trying to find it.
I'm flipping through Matthew, but... Yeah, I don't know the reference.
That really... spoke to me when I first came across it.
Where if I imagine I give my life to Christ and I am saved and I am new wine.
Mm-hmm.
It's really easy to say like, I want a new life.
I want to be healed.
Yeah.
I want to lean into this relationship.
Yeah.
But it's also really comfortable to go back to our old ways and old rhythms.
For sure.
But if we put the new wine in the old wine skin, the wine skins burst.
You can't put the new wine in the old wine skin.
That's right.
So once you have transformed... Yeah.
Like you have to take the step forward and be bold.
Totally.
Or you will explode internally from your old ways.
Let me think about Theo Vaughn.
Like, let's just use him as an example.
Let's say Theo Vaughn decides like, I'm going all in for Jesus.
Like I'm going to have like a radical transformation and follow Jesus.
It's like, How different would that make Theo Vaughn's life?
Like the sold out comedy tours that he does.
I'm of the conviction that I think he would still sell them out with a different demographic of people who are like dude we love what God's doing in your life.
But like his content would probably have to change.
His shows would change his whole persona, of what I mean.
His identity would be completely transformed.
There's got to be so much fear in that.
Absolutely.
I mean, and anyone who says that there isn't is being naive.
Like there's so much fear in that.
Like, let's just be real.
And the whole reason we reacted to the clip is because we wanted to acknowledge like this dude has a lot to lose if he decides to follow Jesus.
And people don't talk about the cost of following Jesus.
And we made the clip to say, hey, Theo, we see you, we're praying for you.
And on the other side of you picking up your cross and making this decision.
I promise you it is way going to outweigh the cost.
The benefits that being a follower of Jesus come with that knowing Christ is Lord of your life is gonna outweigh anything.
Paul said, I count it as nothing.
One translation says, I count it all as dog poop compared to knowing Christ Jesus is Lord.
And it's like, yeah.
Ultimately, you can't make that decision for anyone else.
But man, we just made the clip trying to encourage him.
You can do this, dude.
It is fearful.
But man, on the other side, it's so much better.
That's why they call it being bold.
That's right.
When you have... I mean, it's bold regardless, but when you have a lot...
I don't want to say to lose, but there's a lot that you're turning off in that step.
That is a bold move, but it is so respectable to stand for something as opposed to fall for anything.
That's right.
The last thing I wanted to touch on.
Yeah.
You shared this in a sermon and man, this like spoke to me a lot.
You said, we serve a God who does not give opportunity, but gives assignments.
Yeah.
And you went on to talk about the difference between a God-given assignment versus a man-made opportunity.
How do we know if we're pursuing a God-given assignment or a man-made opportunity?
Yeah, so it might be helpful for me to try to define the difference first.
A man-made opportunity might make your name great A God-given assignment will make God's name great.
A man-made opportunity might bring more money into your bank account.
An assignment will bring more people into heaven.
So opportunities are not necessarily evil or bad.
So that's something that needs to be said is like, there will be opportunities that come our way.
And just because it leads to more of something that this world has to offer, as long as it's not sin, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad.
Money, wealth is not bad.
It's not bad.
It's bad when it becomes the thing that rules us instead of us stewarding it.
That's when it becomes bad, right?
Jesus never said that money was evil.
He said the love of money was the root of all evil.
And so that's really important distinction.
But unfortunately what happens is a lot of people sacrifice their assignment for more opportunity.
So we were talking last night like I think it's really clear, just from being your friend for the short amount of time that we've been friends, that your assignment is to help other people.
Like from the day, like the first time I met you at the park, you were like talking about coming back to Austin because you cared so much about your team, you cared so much about helping people.
And it's like the avenue in which you have helped people for the last 14 years, I think you said?
14 years.
14 years has been helping them become healthier, helping them grow in their fitness, helping them grow in their discipline, helping them grow in these different areas.
Like that's clearly the assignment on your life is to impact people and to help them.
Um, What would be catastrophic would be going hey, instead of helping people, what I would prefer to do is just chase more opportunity that's going to lead to more money, more whatever.
Sometimes our assignment does lead to those things naturally, and that's okay.
But where it doesn't become okay is when we sacrifice what God's called us to do so that we can gain more of what the world has to offer.
So how do you know if you're, sometimes an opportunity can look like an assignment.
Yep.
What's a confirmation that you're pursuing the right one?
So an assignment will always bring glory to God first and foremost, and it will always be for the good of other people in some way, shape or form.
So those two things are kind of pillars.
The other thing is your assignment often comes with a cost of some kind.
So you know, for instance, I'll just talk about my assignment, I feel like, is to be a pastor, to teach people God's word and to make disciples.
Like that's what I feel like my assignment is.
And...
The cost of that is that sometimes I have to say things that are very against culture.
And we were talking about last night offline some of the things that people have done and said about my family because of it.
And some of the things we've had to do just safety wise.
And it's like, I'm not despising that.
That just comes, that's just the cost of what I'm called to do.
And I'm honored to do this.
Like compared to people in other parts of the world.
That's nothing that people say mean things to you.
In other parts of the world, people die for doing what I do.
So I'm very blessed.
All that to say, there's often a cost that comes with it.
And sometimes it's hidden.
But the other thing about an assignment is that it's really hard and can be extremely challenging, but at the same time there's a grace on it.
So like, it feels like you're running downhill a little bit where I'm still exerting lots of effort.
I'm still like, my heart rate is still up, but this shouldn't be as easy as it is.
It's like an example of this would be like when we moved to Nashville.
It was like We had zero money.
We were so poor.
We would walk by the pond and ducks would throw bread at us.
We had no team and nothing.
We just knew like, this is the assignment God's given us is to start this church.
And it was really, really hard.
Like we were.
I mean, we started with six people and we're meeting in our living room and we're praying and we're casting this crazy vision to six people.
And for the last two and a half years we've seen 1500 people give their life to Jesus for the first time.
We're about to start a second location, all these things in two and a half years.
And it just kind of feels like we're running downhill, like hard things, hard conversations, hard conversations obstacles, but it just feels like God's hand is on it.
The Bible would call it God's grace.
God's grace makes impossible things possible.
And that's when you know you're running in.
Your God-given assignment is I'm doing hard things for the glory of God, the good of others, and there seems to be a grace on it.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Actually, it's really good to hear because that is confirmation to me.
At least I think that I'm on assignment right now.
Yeah.
There is a huge cost and sacrifice to... to the assignment that I believe I'm on right now.
Yeah.
And I'm still battling a lot of battles.
Yeah.
And fighting the day to day.
And it's by no means easy, but of where I'm trying to get to.
Yeah. and I believe that my assignment is taking me to, it does feel like I'm running downhill.
Things are just falling into place.
Other parts of my life, outside of that direct assignment, there's still a lot of hardship.
But for where I feel like God is taking me And I've told Seth this all these things are falling into place almost too easy.
Wow.
Without us having to do anything.
Yep.
And it's a really good, as you were explaining that, that is a very good breakdown.
Yeah. of like what the difference between a man-made opportunity and a God-given assignment is.
And when you try to pursue the man-made opportunities, it exhausts you.
Oh, I know.
Me too.
Dude.
I know.
Yeah.
And, like You know, right now I'm in a stressful season of life and I'm working really hard, but I'm not exhausted.
For the first time in a long time.
Wow.
Like a long time.
Wow.
I've been exhausted for...
I mean much of the last 14 years.
I feel like I was in some sort of zombie state of pure exhaustion.
But for the first time in a long time, I don't feel like I'm in that state right now.
It's awesome.
It feels really good.
You're running your lane, man.
Yeah.
Assignment.
But it doesn't mean...
It's all blue skies and rainbows.
And it'd be really easy for me if I didn't have the perspective or insight or the right people around me.
Yeah.
These conversations.
Yeah.
To focus on all the bad things that are happening.
Yes.
And be like, man, there's nothing working.
Yeah.
But I just have to look at it a little bit differently and think, oh, everything's working.
There's things that I'm not happy about.
Yes.
But it's all still leading me.
I'm still running downhill.
Right.
And I can feel that.
And what I love about being around guys like you is I feel like you naturally get the idea of taking big swings for the kingdom or big swings for your assignment.
And like that's the thing that I really hope is people are listening to the end of this, like I hope people will do more of that because, like when I read scripture, like we talked a little bit about ambition, even on this podcast in a roundabout way.
It's like the Bible says do nothing out of selfish ambition.
But there's a big difference between selfish and godly ambition.
Selfish ambition is pursuing man-made opportunities.
Godly ambition is going.
Hey, I just believe that God is so big and God is so good and that he actually wants to like wring out every possible part of my life for his glory, that we should take bigger risks for the kingdom of God.
Like when you read the story of David.
There was no part of that dude that was not full of godly ambition.
Like when he runs out and goes to fight Goliath and calls him an uncircumcised Philistine, which is like the ultimate Bible disword ever.
And then attacks him.
It's like dude.
That's the kind of faith that I want to have, as like we're pursuing our assignments is like man.
Like this is a big swing, but imagine how much glory God could get from this if this works.
Like.
I think that God really loves to show up for people like that and show out because he knows that he'll get the glory from it.
Yeah, I like thinking of myself as a warrior of God.
Like Leonidas from 300.
Yeah.
With like the six pack abs, the huge chest, the beard, and like the uh, the sword and like the armor.
I'm like, I imagine like that kind of warrior for God as opposed to like this softer, gentler.
Yeah.
Um person.
But yeah man, the the journey has been so rewarding and it's really hard for me not to take the big swings because I've never gotten excited about the incremental stuff.
Yeah.
Like even when it comes to business, I'll have people come in here and do an audit and show us where we can make incremental progress.
Like, damn, I'm getting excited about the incremental stuff.
Where's the big swing?
Like, let me go take the big swing.
And I know it's like massive risk, but huge reward at the same time.
Yeah.
That's what I want to be on that mission.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In the kingdom of God, man, it's really nice knowing that the Lord's behind you.
Yeah.
You know I'm taking this big swing, but ultimately, if he's the one who told me to do it, it's him who's footing the bill.
It's him who's going to show up, you know, and it brings a lot of exhilaration and, at the same time, peace.
Just...
Because who better to have on your side?
It's like, what is money to him?
What is team to him?
What is fear to him?
And it's like, it's all got to bow to him.
So I'm taking big swings.
Well, brother, I appreciate you.
This was great.
It's an honor.
I love what you're doing.
I can't wait to be able to sit Sundays, listen to your sermons.
It's going to be awesome.
At some point, but very grateful for you, dude.
Grateful for you, bro.
Such an honor to be here.
Thanks for taking care of us.
And I love this podcast.
So it's a huge honor to be on it.
Thank you, man.
