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Having crucial, critical, constructive conversations can be challenging for all of us.
Today we'll discuss how to make those easier.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School
of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I'm super excited to chat with Irv Grossbeck.
Irv was the co-founder and co-director of the GSB Center for Entrepreneurial Studies,
which he helped run for 20 years.
And he is the co-author of the textbook, New Business Ventures in the Entrepreneur.
He teaches conversations in management for the GSB and for 10 years he taught managing
difficult conversations at Stanford Medical School.
He co-founded Continental Cable Vision later called Media One.
He serves on numerous boards and is an owner of the Boston Celtics Basketball Team.
Irv, thanks so much for joining me.
I am super excited for our conversation.
Well, Matt, thanks for asking me.
It's a treat to be here.
Yeah, shall we get started?
Let's do.
Excellent.
You've spent a lot of time as an entrepreneur, thinking about entrepreneurship and teaching
about it.
To your mind, what are the key ingredients, ideas and actions that lead to success in
entrepreneurship?
Well, Matt, an entrepreneur to our way of thinking is someone who is looking for opportunity
without regard to the resources that he or she currently controls.
How many people think, gosh, I don't have much money, I'm going to wait some time, I'm
going to build up a little money and then I'll be able to find something of business to
start or buy and invest in.
I'm not going to do that now.
Then time passes by.
If they think about it that they aren't the capital supplier, they're just the opportunity
finder.
Then the second key to me is to be sure that you get comfortable with the domain that
you're in.
Now what's a domain?
It's healthcare is not a domain, it's a whole aggregation of domains.
But back office support for hospitals is a domain.
There's an old adage that we like to remind students about, which is when great management
meets a bad business, the business always wins.
I love that idea of being an opportunity finder and looking for the right domains.
I think that applies in daily life and in the decisions we make.
Indeed.
What are myths or counterintuitive ideas that you want people to know about entrepreneurship?
Well, there's a common perception that still lingers among many people that entrepreneurs
are a certain personality type.
They're bombastic and they are attracted to risk and they're egotistical.
Indeed, the best entrepreneurs are antifetical to that.
They are thoughtful people who try to shrink every possible modicum of risk out of what
they're doing.
And further, to be sure the risk they must assume or choose to assume is execution sensitive
rather than what the economists would call exogenous or uncontrollable.
Do you think entrepreneurs are born or can they be made?
A lot of people think 300 hitters in baseball are born, but boy, some of them get there
by hard work and that's how I feel about entrepreneurs.
I had no idea I would be an entrepreneur.
I wasn't exposed to any growing up.
I didn't even understand or think about that path.
So was it in me all the time?
I don't know.
I rather suspect not, but I came to it and I think so many of our students I've tracked
over the years feel the same way.
I believe that all of us can become more entrepreneurial if we allow ourselves and we surround ourselves
with the opportunities and the people who can help.
You teach courses both at the Graduate School of Business and the Stanford Medical School
where you used to teach that help students with challenging situations.
Of all the various communication challenges you work on with your students, what is one
that is most difficult for them to handle and what coaching do you provide them to help
them with that?
So I think a difficult one is when they are in a tough conversation and new information
comes to light, they don't change position because they worry about how they look.
And indeed, if they think about serving the organization, they need to change position.
And if it's too hard to change position right there in the spot, the next important
thing to do is to tell a person, let's take a deep breath here.
I need to reflect on this new information.
Just meet tomorrow at 9 o'clock and continue this conversation.
So certainly changing position is difficult, difficult for all of us, but particularly difficult
starting out when many students as entrepreneurs have the imposter syndrome.
A second one is really hard for students to be brief, especially when they're uncertain
and nervous about the context and the person on the other side of the desk and what they're
saying, they tend to be elliptical to repeat themselves.
Brevity conveys conviction.
Getting them to say it in a third of the words is something we often ask them during class.
And finally, I would say it's really hard for students not to make difficult conversations
all about them rather than all about the other person.
Difficult conversations are really very little about the person who's the initiator of the
conversation in most cases, focusing on the issue and the other person and his or her needs
is counterintuitive.
Those are three really important bits of advice that you gave.
That we have to not allow our entrenched or previous position to lock us into a way of
thinking, especially when new information comes to us.
Brevity and allowing ourselves to be other focused rather than self-focused in these
critical conversations is so important.
You mentioned the notion of imposter syndrome.
I'd love to get your perspective on that.
A lot of people listening in, myself included, I have times or bouts of imposter syndrome.
How do you help people think about that and perhaps avoid falling into that trap?
I've simply said, you're well qualified to be in the position you're in.
The reason you feel that way may be that you haven't done it before, but you're in a
position to do it.
And so dig in and do the best you can, and that will most often times be sufficient.
I think that notion that novelty plays a lot into it.
This is the first time I've done this.
I don't have that experience to rely on, and reminding yourself that that's okay.
And in fact, the opportunity is there because of the successes and traits that you demonstrate.
Yeah, it's okay and it's normal.
It's normal to feel that way.
Many of the topics that you teach your students can be very provocative and anxiety-provoking.
How do you help your students manage those various communication situations that you
present them with?
So our students were lucky enough to be teaching smart students.
And if you tee up a problem and ask the students to give you some answers to how that problem
might be solved, they'll probably come up with pretty good answers despite their lack
of experience.
And then you say, well, that involves talking to someone.
So how would you begin that conversation?
Think looks appear, just a few things you're going to say is really helpful for them.
Do you have specific ways you like to suggest that people start these challenging situations,
certain words or phrases or just things to think about that could give us guidance?
The magic word in many of these conversations is we.
If you can have a difficult conversation in which both you and the other person are
looking together at the problem or set of issues and trying to find a solution that works
for both parties, it makes it non-adversarial or at least lowers the temperature.
As opposed to your missing quote, or you've got to do better or we'll have to let you
go.
If I knew, let's assume as a salesperson, if I knew how to do it, I would have already
done it.
And I think it would help, as opposed to, I'm going to work with you consistently over
the next two months.
It'll be obvious both to you and me whether we're successful together and I think we will
be.
If not, we'll have to part ways, but I don't expect that to happen.
Well, that's a conversation that is a shot across the bow, but it also says, I'm going
to work shoulder to shoulder with you.
As opposed to go out there and do better.
Absolutely.
It's very collaborative.
It sounds like you and I have a similar approach to these situations where we need to see them
as opportunities to problem solve through collaboration versus just declarations and it
can really make a big difference.
I know you use role playing as a means to teach the skills that you teach and helping people
to deal with these difficult conversations.
Would you be willing to put me through one of these role plays and coach me as if I were
one of your students?
Oh, good.
Well, we'll have some fun.
So you are Sarah Willsey, athletic director of the Fictitious National University.
You manage 32 sports.
You have a team of 60 excluding the coaches.
You have four associate athletic directors of which I, Tom Steele, and one.
So I had a successful career.
I'm a mid career person.
I had a successful career as a division three athletic director and I came to national
hoping to find a division one AD job.
Your position became open and I applied for it, but I lost the position in favor of you.
So you have received three independent reports from people in your group whom you respect.
And those reports all say that I'm badmouthing you behind your back.
I'm criticizing you.
I'm criticizing your decisions and I'm a real negative influence around here.
And so you've gone to your executive coach and said, what do I do?
The executive coach says you have to have a conversation with Tom Steele.
You don't joke around.
That's a potent situation.
I'm questioning my desire to do this.
So this is a puncture in the culture.
Yes.
At GSB, we talk a lot about culture and we talk about the leader of the organization being
the culture carrier.
Part of that responsibility is to repair punctures in the culture.
So I would be thinking about going into this situation.
I would be thinking about what's my objective and my objective is one, I want to make it
very clear that this is causing issues within the culture.
And second, I want to make it clear that I am here in support of Tom, but that the expectation
is that Tom will be supportive of the culture.
And if there are issues that he has with me or the organization that he will bring them
up.
It's a perfect summary of your goals.
Good.
We're off to a good start.
Thank you.
Tom, it's come to my attention that you are expressing concern about the way I'm doing
things.
Part of my...
Wait, who told you that?
These are...
We have a very open culture here and I expect and ask for people to give me feedback and
insight into what's working and what's not working.
And several in the organization have presented conversations where they have heard you talk
about, disagreeing with or in some cases actually insulting my actions.
We mean I don't get to know who my accusers are.
This is sort of a blind side.
I don't understand this.
Well, I'm surprised that you see this as a blind side.
We have a culture here where you and I give each other feedback all the time.
My goal here is for us to focus on the relationship you and I have and the role that you fulfill
within this organization and the impact that your thoughts and actions have.
And together, I believe we can come up with a way to not only help you voice your ideas
and opinions in a way that I can hear them and direct, but also to continue the culture
that we together are building.
I think you're doing a great job and I actually don't know what you're talking about.
Well, to me, I've heard in a few instances that when we talked about our new program to
offer further education for some of our new members of our team, that you thought that
that was a waste of time, that they would learn most by being on the job.
Okay, okay.
I understand.
Well, I want to make one thing clear.
Never ever have I criticized you personally.
Now as far as the education initiative goes, you remember that when we discussed it in
advance, I didn't think it was a good idea.
And yet it was put into place.
And so I've simply commented that I didn't agree with the decision.
I mean, I don't understand exactly why isn't that normal?
It is absolutely normal and appropriate to share opinions and ideas.
The tone and timing of those opinions are important and then they can convey information.
As a respected leader on this team, you and all of us in the leadership role need to be
very thoughtful about when we voice our concerns and opinions.
We are role modeling at all times the culture that we want to be.
And I hope that you feel comfortable sharing your opinion.
I just want to make sure that we don't create an adversarial relationship because I am
fully supportive of the work you do for us.
And I have seen the value that you bring to this organization.
Okay.
Well, I understand and I'm in agreement with that.
I guess my lips are sealed after the decision.
Regardless of how I feel about it, I'll have to suppress my views.
I certainly don't want anybody on this team suppressing their views.
But I do want us to be all thoughtful about how our views and how we communicate those
views might have a broader impact.
Right.
Wow, you are good.
I am sweating as we have this conversation.
Share with me the feedback about how I did or the things that I could do differently or
better.
I'd love to learn as your students do for me.
I thought you were extraordinary.
I thought it was very polished yet substantive.
This is an actual vignette we teach in class.
A couple of things I would have added would include if I kept denying, I would say I use
a phrase like, well, we need to get past denial and talk about the future.
So please bring your disagreement after the decision is made only to me.
Otherwise, it looks like bad mouthing the decision and maybe me, even though I know that's
not your intent.
And then you could have added in at the very end and this is kind of frosting on the
cake.
Look, Tom, I want to need your support.
I think I'm in a position to support you in your own career goals of becoming a division
one athletic director.
I hear of a lot of opportunities and openings.
I'm in a position to tell you about them and also to write you letters of referral.
I can't do that unless we're working together.
So you're really at a crossroads here.
I hope we can close ranks.
I do respect you.
You add a lot of value here.
If we can't close ranks, it's going to be necessary to part ways.
I really take to heart that notion of naming the behavior that I'm seeing in our conversation
was purposefully not naming some of the things because I was trying not to make the person
defensive.
If I were to say denial, I felt that might cause the person to be defensive, but in hearing
how you said it, I actually see how it punctuates the point.
And coming to the end of the conversation and being very clear about what's needed, closing
the ranks and the fact that I can support you.
But if this doesn't work, we might have to reevaluate.
Very helpful.
We've talked a lot about talking and what we say.
I'm curious to get your opinion on listening.
What's the value of listening in these crucial conversations and what advice do you have
to help people listen better?
I often compare persuading, which is an essential quality of leadership with salesmanship.
And no one ever bought anything while you were talking.
So say what you're going to say and pause.
Pause is show respect.
They show respect that I want to hear what you want to say and I want to stop talking
and I don't wish to dominate this conversation.
Open space is really the ally of the person conducting the conversation.
We often talk about listening as getting the information you need so that you can process
and then communicate.
But listening as you've just shared demonstrates openness demonstrates a willingness to listen
and seeding the floor and showing I value what you have to say.
We are a careers podcast and I know you have advice for people who are choosing careers
or considering changing careers.
What career guidance can you share with our listeners?
I think in terms of paths and I often say to the student, I know this is a daunting question
and you don't need to answer it now but it might be useful to go back and think about
where you'd like to be in 10 years.
I'm thinking as much about context as I am about domain or sub-industry.
I'm thinking do you want to be in charge?
Do you want to be one of several partners in charge?
Which side of the river are you on?
Operator or advisor?
Are you a consultant, investment banker, commercial banker, other advisor?
Or are you running a business or part of a business?
That first decision is one that many of our students have not made yet.
Thinking about context is particularly useful because it rules out part of the world.
Well I don't think I necessarily want to be the managing partner but I'd like to be
a partner and so forth.
Well you've just ruled out enormous parts of the world.
Now come back to where you are and say what are logical paths to get there?
What do I need to do to get there?
If I want to be on the operating side of the river, it's not useful for me to get more
analytical experience.
You know I was a good analyst before I got to business school.
Now I'm an even better analyst.
Do I need to be more analysis?
Know what do I need to do to be an operator?
Well how about I get into some sort of operating position where I have to do some work of a certain
quality or perhaps over a short period of time I get to hire some people and supervise
them.
So let's not go over to the other side.
If we don't want to be on that side and we've already been on it for a long time yet,
it's amazing how many people take what they perceive to be the safe route.
For the first time perversely in their careers there is no safe route.
There are risks at whatever they choose.
There was no risk in what college they went to, they got to go to any one of four wonderful
colleges.
Same with business school most likely.
Same with the jobs in between.
This idea of thinking about the future and considering the context to help us make decisions
so many of us play to our strengths and our comfort zone.
And the advice you're giving us is to take ourselves out of that and look and be more strategic.
Exactly.
Or as we close I'd like to ask you three questions when I make up just for you and to I ask all
my guests are you up for that?
I am.
As a teacher myself I know that while we impart lots of information we also learn a tremendous
amount from our students.
I'm curious what is something you've learned or continue to learn from your students that
you find helpful?
I'm constantly reminded be careful in the words I choose irrespective of how supposedly
good at this I am.
I'm always trying to be better and to choose a better word or a better tone be more sensitive.
They constantly remind me to be that way.
Some of their reminders are negative examples but amazingly and one of the attractions of
teaching is that I actually learn a lot from their phrasing occasionally and their sensitivity.
I got an email the other day from a student with a little sort of reminder if you will
at the bottom try to be kind whenever it's possible.
Dash.
It's always possible.
I'm curious sir for our second question who is a communicator that you admire and why?
I'm a great Warren Buffett fan.
I think Warren Buffett has all of the elements of a great communicator.
He can be whimsical, light, he's direct.
Now have I seen him in a lot of difficult conversations?
No.
A few where shareholders asked barbed questions from the floor but not very many.
I come away from those conversations thinking boy what a nice person he is, how smart he
is and how thoughtful he is about new things that he says.
I picked up a phrase that he said we should always be redefining the edge of our competence.
What a wonderful idea.
Warren Buffett is very approachable yet you absolutely do not question his credibility.
Final question for you.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Business with respect.
If you're direct with someone, somehow that's harsh.
The art of good conversation management I think does involve directness and respect at
the same time.
The second would be strength with warmth.
And by strength I don't mean power, I mean decisiveness.
But I want to convey my decisiveness not like I'm putting down a fiat that they have to
follow but that this is the path that makes them most sense and I'd be glad to talk with
them about it.
I'm soliciting their support for it and I respect what they've done.
I think that those two can go hand in hand and that is definitely something that the
students resist at first.
The third one is don't mistake vagueness for compassion.
Being vague with somebody is actually not being compassionate.
That's particularly true in medical situations where they really want to know where they stand
and they deserve to know where they stand in the kindest way.
That's true in business settings as well.
I think of conversation, difficult conversation management as a performance art.
I don't go into a difficult conversation unless I've actually said the words in advance.
I have talking points.
Talking points do not suffice.
It's a practice art.
I'm not going to go out and play the violin in front of people unless I have the piece
rehearsed.
So much richness there, many of us want to be nice and kind and sometimes that impacts
what we really need to do in the circumstance.
And I'll end by simply saying I 100% agree communication is something you have to practice.
It's not just talking business.
This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Michael Riley and me, Matt Abrahams.
For more information and episodes, visit gsb.stanford.edu or subscribe to our show wherever you
get your podcasts.
Finally, find us on social media at stanford.gsb.
Hi, Matt here. Season leaders know that today's ever-changing landscape demands constant
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