Hi, Matt here. If you want to continue finding tools to a successful and happy life, I recommend listening to the Happiness Lab hosted by Yale Professor Dr.
Laurie Santos. Dr. Santos has studied the science of happiness and has found that many of us do the exact opposite of what will make our lives better.
Based on the psychology course she teaches at Yale, she will take you through the latest scientific research and share some surprising stories that will change the way you think about happiness.
This season she's tackling topics that affect her own life, like stress, perfectionism, and boredom.
If you struggle with any of those, or if it sounds like you could learn more about increasing happiness in your life, then listen to the Happiness Lab right here in your podcast player.
Stress looms large in our life and in our communication.
Today we'll explore ways to de-stress.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, TalkSmart, the podcast.
Today I am really excited to chat with Jenny Tates.
Jenny is a clinical psychologist and an assistant clinical professor in psychiatry at UCLA.
She also writes for the New York Times in Wall Street Journal.
Her newest book is Stress Resets, How to Soothe Your Body and Mind in Minutes.
Jenny and I first met in a class I was teaching and subsequently we've become friends and supporters of each other's work.
Jenny, thanks for being here.
I'm so excited for our conversation.
I can't wait to talk to you, Matt.
Excellent. Let's get started, okay?
Sounds great. Your new book is all about managing stress, which as you know is something we talk a lot about on this podcast.
Our focus tends to be on the anxiety that comes with communication.
You focus more broadly.
Can you talk us through the stress cycle and share what most of us get wrong with some of the typical ways we try to cope with our stress?
Yes. One of the most frustrating things about being human is we have a knack for taking stress and multiplying it without even realizing it.
And so oftentimes something stressful happens to us and then we start co-creating stress in three ways.
We often start getting lost and thinking the worst, getting mired in negative thoughts.
And then understandably our body has some sort of stress response.
We feel tense. We feel like we can't breathe.
And then we start to hyper-focus on our body and then the combination of thinking the worst and our body feeling like it's rebelling against us can easily lead us to sort of act in emotion-driven ways or try to avoid.
And so for example, if you have something to do on your agenda, it's so easy to get lost thinking it's too much.
I can't. It has to be perfect.
It's going to take ten times longer than I have time for.
And then that's understandably going to lead you to feel maybe like you can't breathe and you can't focus and then lo and behold, you are maybe scouring the internet and you know, going for too many breaks and having too many snacks.
So this just compounds our stress.
And so being mindful of the ways that we at each juncture just escalate things and make things so much harder for ourselves allows us to also have a way to exit at each juncture and make things a lot easier for us.
Life is really hard and there's enough stress that we're experiencing that we can't control that I want people to feel really empowered to navigate their part in what they're doing to make things that much harder.
I certainly understand the anxiety spiral that you've talked about.
I see it in my own life. I see it in the life of the people that I coach and my students and my kids.
I look forward to learning ways that we can exit that spiral to help ourselves be a little less nervous and perhaps even a little more confident.
Can you share some of your tips for more effectively managing this stress?
Absolutely. So just to be clear, there are so many tools and different tools work for different people and different tools work at different times.
So I'm just going to share a couple.
And so the tools that I teach in my book really try to target resetting your mind, resetting your body and resetting your behavior.
So I'll just give you a snapshot of one of each.
But to reset our minds, even just taking a moment to notice, I'm in a motion mind.
We all metaphorically and somewhat literally have three states of mind.
We have a motion mind when we're driven by feelings.
We have a reasonable mind where we're just focusing on the facts and we have wise mind, which is where our head and heart overlap.
And if I'm starting to sit down to do my taxes and I'm saying, this is terrible, this is a disaster, that is totally emotion mind.
And if I can even see that for what it is, it's almost like creating this spam filter rather than taking this noise as letting that become my dictator.
And so simply even just catching yourself in emotion mind is incredibly helpful.
One playful way that I teach people to really amplify this is even if you have a repetitive, unwanted thought, 80 to 99% of us have unwanted intrusive thoughts.
If you have one that just simply is not helping you, like, I'm not good enough, that's never going to be helpful.
Doing something silly, like seeing that thought to an upbeat tune, like, do you believe in magic?
Can automatically short circuit, the hours lost, drowning in that depressing thought?
And so a quick mind reset would be just changing your relationship with your thinking, making your thoughts more playful, curtailing the time that you're spent losing yourself.
We would hate friends that spoke to us this way, but we're doing this to ourselves all the time.
I also like a body reset of relaxing your facial expression because doing something as small as ever so slightly raising the upper corners of your lips creates a landscape for more acceptance.
So if I'm really frustrated or if I'm really nervous because of facial feedback, if I ever so slightly relax my face, that allows our minds to feel less judgmental and as to feel less like we're rebelling against what is.
And then my absolute favorite behavior reset is opposite action or approaching what you want to avoid taking one step forward because doing the things that, unfortunately, when we're stressed, we do things that make us more stressed.
But if we can think about what we would do, if we were feeling differently, what would be the first thing that we would tackle on our to-do list, what would be the thing that would help us make things better because when we're sad, we act in ways that keep us sad, when we're anxious, we act in ways that keep us anxious, whether that again is like perfectionism or procrastinating.
But maybe it's setting a timer and going for good enough on the hardest thing rather than doing something like procrastivity, which is like pseudo productivity and like emptying out your inbox.
And so through being really aware of our mind, body and behavioral urges, we can choose a different point, ways to exponentially transform this moment and many moments.
I really appreciate the delineating of the very specific things we can do.
And I know your book is full of many of them and I know you help your patients and friends myself among them with some of these tools and tips.
So this notion of doing things for our mind, our body and our behavior, I like this idea, we take some of the fangs out of that anxiety.
I want to talk about some specific things.
Again, I'm turning this into a therapy session, but a lot of us spend time overthinking and ruminating when it comes to these issues around anxiety.
I am certainly guilty of these.
What are some ways we can turn down the volume on overthinking and ruminating?
A very important first step is being aware of our beliefs, our metacognitions, our beliefs about our thinking because if we believe on some level that thinking about something endlessly is going to lead to some sort of epiphany or breakthrough, then we're going to feel compelled to continue to do this.
And it's very interesting when it comes to overthinking, people have very negative beliefs, like this is ruining my life and also positive beliefs at the same time.
Like this is going to help and I'm somehow on the cusp of a breakthrough.
And so being aware of what your beliefs are about overthinking is of important first step to increase your motivation to be willing to change this habit.
And then a lot of times people overthink because they are trying to deal with their emotions.
And so rather than just skimming the surface and almost having a new sticker going in your mind about something that really matters, doing something to allow yourself to go deeper and actually feel your feelings is far more powerful.
And so in research studies when college students are asked to journal about their deepest feelings about something for three days for just 20 minutes each day, six months later, those same students have significant reductions in their depression.
And so we might think just casually carrying something or thinking about it in pop up form is allowing us to process our feelings.
But if we have situations that are plaguing us actually allowing ourselves to sit with them and go deeper and process them in a way that's constructive rather than destructive is really vital.
And then we also have so many thoughts that are simply just noise that we don't need to be thinking about.
And so for those, there's so many options that I talk a lot more about, but again, because different things work at different times for different people.
But a couple might be to even have a session where your rumination time, if you feel like this is something that you do and it's too hard to say you're never going to do it, which is understandable to think about, okay, from four to four, 15, I can put all the things that I've been that are on my mind on a posted and I'll unpack those at that window.
So you're going from like an all day habit to a more condensed time.
You can also really learn to step back and thinking like, what are thoughts?
Thoughts are just mental events.
I probably won't be thinking about this five years from now.
We get really lost in thinking that what's happening right now is everything.
But if we can increase our perspective around our thinking and stretch time a little bit, it can allow us to feel a lot more hopeful.
One of the things I love, Jenny, about just chatting with you is you have such actionable ideas and you use very vivid simple terms to help.
I love this idea of describing rumination and overthinking is that constant ticker or those pop-ups that come up because that's exactly how it can feel sometimes.
And to step back and think about your thoughts, the medication you talk about is really important because then you can do the reframing that you're talking about.
When I work with the people I coach on a similar issue, I make sure to distinguish between rumination and reflection.
Reflection is a good thing, but you do it after the fact with the purpose being to improve things in the future.
Reflection is like an anchor into the past.
And I like your ways of dealing with it where you allow yourself time to feel deeply, to really think about it instead of being very cursory in how you approach it.
And that was very helpful for me to hear from you.
And I love this idea of really just setting up a time and say, okay, I'm going to dedicate time right now to do some rumination.
And that's important because again, it gives you a sense of agency and it helps you put things into perspective.
I thank you for those tools and those tips.
When reading through the many suggestions you provide, one of your suggestions really hit home for me.
And I'd love for you to explain it more.
I really gravitated towards your idea of swap the why for the how.
Can you explain this and share with us how it can help us feel less stress?
Absolutely. So so often when we're remainting, we're just circling, going in a dead end over and over and over again.
And instead of doing that, like why didn't I get a second round of interviews or why didn't I get a third day with this person that I thought seemed to like me.
Or why didn't I get the promotion when my colleague did instead of going from something that's circular and not going to let me read to any information or empowerment.
If we could think about how can I move forward given this is true.
So we're taking something that's unproductive and making it much more productive and creating some sort of plan.
So you mentioned this sense of agency and so we can spend hours and hours on the why, but what we really need to know is what we can do to start to problem solve.
Why is just speculative, right?
But how is something that is actually allowing us to set motion, a plan to cope and to create some sort of positive future for ourselves?
After reading about this technique, I started to listen to my internal dialogue and I use the word why a lot.
And I've tried as you suggest to swap it with how.
And it's been very helpful for me.
At first I was just surprised at how many times I say why did this happen and turning it into a how really has been helpful and moves forward.
It's got action. It's got momentum.
So thank you for explaining it for all of us, but for helping me to get a better handle on what's going on in my mind.
Jenny, anyone yourself included who listens to Think Fast Talksmart knows that I love a good acronym.
In one of your New York Times articles, you suggest that communicating empathy helps our conversations go more smoothly.
Can you give us some insight into the acronym you use to help people show that empathy?
It's crazy. We make ourselves think that we need to be ready to give a TED Talk or have a Netflix comedy special when we're connecting with people.
But really all we need to do is embody Mr.
Rogers a little bit. If we can communicate to someone that we're listening and articulate empathy, that's everything.
People want to feel seen and heard.
That's our ultimate goal in life.
We do almost everything is to feel seen and like we matter.
And so a very helpful acronym that I teach my clients and that I'm always personally trying to practice myself is give, which stands for being gentle, which is another way of just being respectful, interested, validating, which again is articulating empathy and understanding, and having an easy manner, smiling, being easy going.
So many people insist that they need to be so ready to ask someone on a date or to be liked, but really if we take a moment to just think about the people that we like to speak to, I'm guessing that they embody give.
And this takes a lot of the stress out of connecting with people and allows us to actually be present.
If we're searching for ways to validate, that is far more validating than searching for ways to impress or prove how intelligent we are.
Thank you for sharing ways that we can feel less anxious about our everyday communication or small talk.
I love this idea of channeling Mr.
Rogers. Now for those who are listening who are not steeped in American early childhood culture, Mr.
Rogers was a children's show that taught kids respect and curiosity and connection.
And this notion of ourselves doing that.
In other words, giving the people we're talking to, the respect and the connection is great.
And I love this notion of being gentle, of being interested, validating and being easy in our approach and manner.
I'm going to give a try for sure.
Before we end, Jenny, I'd like to ask you three questions when I'm going to make up specifically from you.
And the other two I ask of everybody, are you up for that?
I'm up for that. Excellent.
So I'm curious, what do you do to help yourself manage the stress you feel?
There are so many and I feel like I truly stack these together and were a necklace of that mess I live my life.
I find it especially helpful to remind myself that emotions come in waves.
Sometimes when something really upsetting happens, it's easy to think I'm going to feel upset for a long time or I won't get over this.
So this is so awful. This could be worse, but to really remember, emotions come in waves is something that I'm constantly telling myself whether or not my child's having a temper tantrum.
Me telling myself emotions come in waves is also just helpful in helping them regulate their emotions as well.
Because I think a huge part of resetting our stress is to create a positive ripple effect for the people around us and our beliefs around emotions also affects the beliefs of other people in their ability to manage their emotions.
Actually, interestingly, in teams, when an manager has a positive view of their ability to manage stress, that's contagious and their teammates are less stressed as well.
So emotions come in waves helps me with that.
And I also really love a skill called radical acceptance, truly wholeheartedly accepting this moment just as it is right now.
And that is not against change, but that's a stance that nicely accompanies change.
I appreciate you sharing what you do for yourself and acknowledging that you are somebody who experiences lots of stresses.
That point about the ripple effect and how our responses to stress impact others' responses to stress is really important.
What many people listening in are managers or aspiring managers.
We all have relationships with friends, family, partners, and that ripple effect, I think, is important for all of us to be thinking about.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
There are so many amazing communicators yourself included to choose from.
But one that comes to mind is Sharon Salzburg, who is a leading mindfulness teacher who popularized teaching loving kindness meditation, a very powerful practice of wishing yourself in others' statements of loving kindness like, may I be happy?
May I be healthy? May I live with these?
And one of the reasons I love Sharon is because, firstly, I think it's important for listeners to know that Sharon was once totally terrified of speaking in public to the point that she was leading retreats and not speaking at the retreats that she was leading and having her co-leaders do all the talking.
I think it's just to normalize that we can have beliefs about our ability to speak that are totally justified and not speaking is such a missed opportunity again, both for you and for the people around you.
And what I love about Sharon's way of speaking is that she shares such profound ideas in such simple ways, oftentimes through so many stories that are really memorable.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I love that you are reinforcing that many of us get nervous in speaking.
And yet we can learn to manage that anxiety and be better at it.
And it certainly sounds like the message is that Sharon is sharing are helpful to many, many people.
My final question for you, Jenny.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Having some sort of agenda being clear, because I think a lot of times we lose ourselves were having small talk when we can go deeper or were missing an opportunity to actually move past something that's trivial or we're just going along with gossip rather than having a clear sense of what am I after in this moment and what matters.
And so an agenda is really key.
I think being present of course is everything because no one wants to be with someone that's multitasking and it's not good for the person or good for the relationship.
And then I think articulating empathy, making a person feel seen, like you notice them, like they matter.
You have shared so many useful insights and some good acronyms as well.
And you just did another one maybe unintentionally, but ape, have an agenda, have a strong presence, be present in the moment and demonstrate empathy.
Those are excellent ingredients and clearly you embody those in your personality and in the work you do.
And I know that it is something that all of us could benefit from.
Jenny, thank you so much for providing insight, for providing very tactical and practical guidance based on your own experience, but also academic research.
I appreciate your time.
Thank you. Thank you, Madden.
Thank you for helping so many people feel less stressed and more able to share meaningful work.
Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, TalkSmart, The Podcast, from Stanford GSB.
To learn more about stress and its benefits, listen to episode 69 with Kelly McGonigold.
And to learn specific tips for managing speaking anxiety, listen to episode 122.
This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
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