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How would you like to work at a podcast young lady?
Is that the question?
I'm Angela Duckworth.
I'm Steven Dubner. And you're listening to No Stupid Questions.
Today on the show, when it comes to decision making, is it better to maximize or satisfy?
Can I ask is synonym for maximizer pain in the ass?
I know. Also, what is the ideal interview question?
Oh, I noticed you've got a Phillies hat on.
Are you from Philadelphia and then all of a sudden an hour's gone by and the interview's over?
Angela Duckworth, I have a question for you today.
Sure. I want to know whether you are a maximizer or a satisficer and why and while you answer I want you to explain maximizing and satisfying where it comes from what it means I am a maximizer I had a feeling yeah you knew me so that means that when it comes to my work I am trying to do better and better and better That's what maximizers do.
They try to maximize.
Better and better and better compared to your previous self or better compared to other people?
Compared to my previous self.
And I think that's generally what maximizers are trying to do.
Basically they're trying to optimize outcomes and that's the intuitive answer, at least the way economists think about human beings making choices.
Like, of course you're trying to get the best ice cream cone, have the best outcomes, but satisficing is a more recent idea.
It comes from Nobel Laureate Herb Simon. He won the Nobel Prize for Economics, but he was really more of a psychologist, decision scientist. And Simon coined this term, satisficing, for a very different process.
You're not trying to get the best or do the best or choose the best, you're trying to choose good enough.
So what's so interesting is, even as you're describing it, you've got a sneer in your voice.
I know, I have maximizing tendencies, probably in lots of domains, especially in my work.
When asked, are you the kind of person who settles for good enough?
Every cell in my body says no, why would I do that?
All right, let me transfer you virtually to a totally different domain.
Let's say you and I were hungry, we've been working together and we need to get a bite to eat.
Do you remain a Maximizer there?
I am absolutely a Maximizer.
I wanna know that within a certain x block radius, I have chosen the best restaurant, including lots of parameters like price, so value for money.
And not only that, Stephen, I want to know that I ordered the best thing on the menu for me at that time in my life.
Can I ask, is synonym for Maximizer pain in the ass?
I have to say I can't even help it.
I literally say sometimes when I'm staring at a menu, Oh, I wonder what the best thing is?
And I'm usually the one asking the waiter or the waitress, what's the best thing that you serve here?
Whenever I asked something like that, the answer I get is people seem to like the chicken.
Yeah, but it's like, what do you mean, people seem to like it?
It wasn't that hard of a question.
Well, Steven, are you a satisfacer?
I mean, you asked me these questions like you're suspicious of my maximizing tendencies.
I have to say, I'm not so surprised that you're a maximizer, especially in a professional realm.
And look what I study, Steven.
I study excellence.
And I admire you and everybody else who wants to maximize, and it doesn't have to be a professional setting.
If you're a volunteer, if you're a parent, I very much appreciate the urge to maximize.
And I share that urge in many realms some of the time.
but I also really, really, really appreciate the value of satisficing.
Okay, give me an example.
I'll take our same example, you and me going out for a bite to eat.
We're both hungry. So now I'm starting to think about what is the opportunity cost of maximizing?
How long do we have to stand here looking on our phones to find the place that has an eighth of a star higher rating and then we have to debate the merits of Yelp versus whatever ratings to see, well how can we tell what's the best actual empirical evidence of this.
When I say to myself it's just a meal.
And, this perfectly good cart over here can serve us chicken on rice.
Right, let's have some dirty water hot dogs and be done with it.
Follow the day. I mean, this is really about decision making.
Every decision is different.
If you're talking about choosing a life partner or a vocation, let's do some maximizing.
If you're talking about lunch, I'm okay with some satisfying.
And then, there are many, many things in between.
So I was exposed to this idea of maximizing and satisfying, I dunno, 15, 20 years ago from psychologists Barry Schwartz, and to me it was a very useful concept because I do feel I'm a maximizer in certain realms, especially when it comes to work, things that I care about or my family, but then I just started to feel like if you think economically, I wanted to come up with categories of life where I consciously wanted to be a satisficer, and so to me that seemed like a very logical bifurcation.
So, first of all, what do you have to say about his view of maximizing and satisfying as it pertains to let's say, happiness or satisfaction.
And then let's talk about how you can move from one realm to the other, if you so desire.
Barry is a great psychologist, and he teamed up with some other psychologists and he created a scale for testing whether you are a maximizer or a satisficer.
And where in that continuum And on his scale, he has items like, I never settle for second best or when I watch TV, I channel surf, scanning through available options, not easily settling on one.
And I remember reading that scale and then quizzing myself and thinking, oh my gosh, I answered Maximizer for every single one.
And then when I read the article, it's a little worrisome because it turns out that in general, it's the satisficers who are happier.
They may not have more money, but they actually might feel okay about that.
They're more likely to be satisfied with their work, etc. So, to me, when I finished that article, I thought, well, I guess they're trade -offs.
So, high standards, maybe on objective grounds things are better, but you don't feel good.
And I didn't change my mind about being a maximizer.
I didn't think, like, oh, I should be more satisficing.
There must be some areas in which you're a satisficer.
Well, look, I'm a satisficer when it comes to exercise, physical exercise.
But I'm not the sort of person who's trying to get better in any athletic domain.
You just want to tick the box.
I got my exercise done.
I think it was Ben Franklin who said that if you exercise to the point where you're a little warm, you just raise your body temperature by two or three degrees, you've probably had a workout and I'm in that camp.
You think Ben Franklin said that?
You know, he didn't really look very fit.
Didn't he dive count?
Sounds about right.
Okay. So I'm a satisficer whether for good or for bad when it comes to my physical exercise regime.
I'm not optimizing there.
And is that because that's an activity that you enjoy less, that you assign less importance to?
I think it must be in part because I don't care.
I don't want to die.
Well, you're gonna.
Hate to give away the end of the story.
But maybe I'll die a little later, because I'm getting my little middle -aged workout during the day sometimes.
I'm trying to think if there's anything else I don't care about.
there's so many domains in my life like what I would cook for our family dinner tonight the emails that I write my professional life I'm kind of hard -pressed to find many domains in my life where I don't care I think you have the right answer though which is it's probably good to be deliberate like where am I gonna be a maximizer and because it is exhausting and time is finite where am I gonna give a little.
I'm just struggling to figure out which of the domains can you help me.
How about this? You say that you're a maximizer even even when it comes to your next meal, what if you take one meal a day and try to be a satisficer for that meal?
Just a good enough person.
And say, you know what, rather than spend the time thinking about this, trying to optimize I'm gonna eat the first thing that looks decent, and see how that feels.
Do you really do that?
Would I do that? No, I do that all the time.
You do that now? I love food.
But there are times when I say, I've been working really hard. I'm so hungry, I'm getting a headache.
I need to eat. But if there's the choice between I could order from the Japanese place and get a really nice, robust, healthy, delicious thing or I can eat the can of sardines and get back to my work.
You're gonna go with sardines.
I'm gonna go sardines maybe two out of four times.
Or one out of two times, that would be another way to put it.
Or five out of ten times!
Bad with fractions.
Good with sardines.
Yeah, exactly. Look, I'm sure I'm just ignoring all the areas of my life where I'm satisfying.
maybe that's a feature of satisfying.
You don't think about this choice very much. That's the point of satisfying, you save time and energy.
Well, let me ask you this.
I believe Barry Schwartz wrote about the fact that people tend to become more satisficers as they get older.
Yeah, he did. He thinks that's why we get happier, our standards go south.
I think there's a different way of looking at that.
It's not that you settle, I think it's about choosing to care less about things that matter less.
Yeah, it's a little more Buddhist, like, it's not just that you're settling, but you sort of unchained yourself.
Barry Schwartz also believes that in so many ways, the idea of having more choices, maximizing our choices, these things that are supposed to lead to greater and greater happiness, they don't.
And that in some cases, having 24 kinds of jam to choose from would be worse than having, say, three kinds of jam to choose from, in terms of your happiness.
So this is the paradox of choice illustration.
And it was based on a real experiment in California and you were all these jars of jam and when there were 24, whatever, shoppers would look more and buy less, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're happier to have jam.
It's a contentious area of literature, but there are certainly some research studies that suggest that when you come home with your jam, after deliberating, you're actually less happy with your jam relative to others.
Different study, just using jam as the example.
Okay, so let me ask you one last question.
I've asked you to envision yourself trying to move in one realm from maximizing to satisficing by eating whatever shows up for breakfast tomorrow.
What about the opposite?
Now, you don't have this problem.
But let's say somebody out there is listening and say, you know what?
I hear Angela talking about this and I never really thought about satisficing versus maximizing.
I've satisfied a lot and I'm not happy with it.
I wanna learn to maximize.
So, do you have any advice for a would -be maximalist?
Well, it might be off -putting to think like, wow, living life like a maximize, that sounds exhausting.
Sounds like a world of unhappiness.
But maybe I could just offer my own personal experience which is I wake up every day and I want it to be better than the day before.
And I do understand why people from the outside would say it's exhausting, but I find it exhilarating and maybe if I could just share with people that they might say, today, just for one day, let me try it as a maximizer.
And if I don't like it, I can retreat into my little, satisfying shell.
She says derisively.
All warm and safe. So you're saying that you find your maximizing very satisfying.
More satisfying than satisfying.
And that if satisficers would try to maximize more, they would find that their satisfaction might also rise by leaving behind satisficing.
They might. Still to come on No Stupid Questions, what kind of job interview questions are really worth asking?
How many golfers? How many balls do you use?
What's the age range that plays golf?
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Steven, I have a question about interviews.
Interviews like interviewing for a job or interviewing people for journalism?
Of course. I must specify I'm talking to Steven Dumner, job interviews.
And in this case, I am not looking for a job, I am hiring people.
So, I've been doing job interviews.
Is this an academic a research position?
Yep. New people to work at Character Lab.
And here's my question for you.
What is the best job interview question you have ever asked?
So, I'm not a manager person, But I do like questions that have a little bit of logic, a little bit of numeracy and a little bit of like just watching someone think.
So here's one question I read a long time ago that I loved.
I'll just ask you, Angela, I'm interviewing you.
Let's say it's for Freakonomics Radio.
Okay. How would you like to work at a podcast, young lady?
Is that the question, the answer would be yes.
So here's the question.
Let's say one day you're riding to work on the subway or the bus and You see someone sitting near you, say a middle aged woman, and she's reading.
She's got her nose buried in this book and she's got her hair drawn back and these thick glasses.
And right next to her, she's got a big tote bag filled with more books.
What's more likely that she is a librarian or a salesperson?
This is like a Danny Kahneman question, right?
It's a Danny Kahneman type of question?
So I'm supposed to answer with base rates.
So I have to think that there are, I think, more salespeople than there are librarians.
Many more. And therefore, that person is more likely a salesperson, even though there's this salient cue like books, librarian must be a librarian.
So I'm gonna go with salesperson.
So I would be much more likely to wanna hire you now, just because you know what base rate means for one.
And for those who don't know who Danny Kahneman is and what he's done, just describe a bit, please?
Dan Economin is a recipient of the Nobel Prize in economics, even though he's a world -class psychologist. He's one of a handful of economics prize winners who is not an economist. Correct.
Right. So to many people when you ask them that question, it's plainly a leading question.
You're plainly trying to not have it be a librarian.
But then what you want someone to do is talk it through and get to the logic.
So the logic is pretty simple.
And then you want to hear how numerous people are.
The fact is there are something like 150 librarians in America and 18 million salespeople.
So the odds are that any given person who happens to be reading books and they look a little bit studious, even if they're female and librarians are about 80 percent female, even so they used to be about 50 -50 by the way, if you go back 100 years.
If you said all that in an interview, I would be like, wow!
This person isn't just smart and nice, they're encyclopedic in their knowledge.
But they know some stuff, yeah.
Well, you know what you're reminding me of I was finishing up a master's degree and I decided for whatever reason that you're a master's degree It was my own master's degree.
I was at Oxford. Let me help you with that buddy Exactly.
It was not finishing up someone else's masters.
I'm not that nice And I decided I wanted to work at McKinsey consulting and I remember that the interview was all of these sort of like logic slash fractions problems, right?
I think this is the question of this how many golf balls are sold in the United States every year?
And you know the logic part is you have to think like how many golfers how many balls do you use what's the age range that plays golf the math part comes where you multiply fractions one out of four people whatever that kind of question is sometimes called a Fermi question because I guess Fermi would ask these questions I bet his were better than golf balls though I bet he was really good at it.
I think physicists has really good questions.
So do economists, so do psychologists.
But, I will say this, whenever you look at the list of questions that actual HR people ask actual would -be employees, I'll be honest with you, I cringe a little bit.
So, here are the top five most common interview questions.
What are your strengths, what are your weaknesses, why are you interested in working for our firm, where do you see yourself in five years, 10 years, and why do you want to leave your current company?
So personally, I think the strengths and weaknesses, I just think they're not going to draw much good material.
Where are you going to be in five or ten years?
Of the five, I like that the best. I've heard good answers to that.
I do ask some version of that to people.
I think, like most people, I'm not looking for the quote write answer, I'm looking for a revealing answer, I'm looking for some that tells me in a relatively short time about character, depth, curiosity.
On the other hand, I know Danny Kahneman, who you mentioned, he's argued that when you're interviewing, you want a structured interview, almost a survey really, right?
I think it's not only Danny Kahneman, but you know, there's a consensus in social scientist that what's typically done is the unstructured interview, which is like, person walks in.
You strike up a conversation, you're like, oh, I noticed you've got a Phillies head on.
Are you from Philadelphia?
And then the conversation is a random walk through topics and then all of a sudden, an hour has gone by and the interview is over.
That's what most interviews probably are like in America.
And the consensus in social science is not only do they not add much predictive value to hiring the right person, but in many cases could detract value.
In other words, if you hadn't interviewed the person at all, you would have been better off as an employer.
Because you're basically building up an image, a projection based on kind of garbage?
Well, I think the idea is this, you can come out of an hour -long interaction with another human being with a really strong visceral and emotional liking or disliking for that person.
And then you could overweight it you could ignore things like well, the resume is not so strong And I don't know the recommendations were if you but God we had this great conversation about the Phillies So for what it's worth when we hire a free economics radio or associated project.
We just do mostly written homework We asked them tell us about an episode that you liked of ours and why and tell us an episode you thought was really bad And why oh, I like that.
Oh, thanks I'm glad you approve We should have probably run these by you before we started using them.
Then we ask for some other homework like to propose some ideas and how you'd go about executing them and so on.
Like you, I'm pretty skeptical that interviews are going to add a lot of value in the decision process.
Like Danny Kahneman and many others, I worry that they can actually provide negative value.
What you just proposed, which is of course not an interview question per se, it's really something else.
I think that's called a work sample.
And I think there's like a mountain of research showing that unlike unstructured interviews, work samples, which are just like, hey, you're going to have to do X, could you do a little of X now?
Let me see how it goes, those are really good.
And I recognize that the world being as diverse as it is, every job is different, every industry is different, you can't always get that.
But when I was hired by the New York Times many years ago, the size of the work sample was unbelievable.
What did they ask you to do?
Do you remember? So, I was interviewing for an editor at The Sunday Magazine.
I don't remember all the details, but I had to propose a number of story ideas attached to each idea, a writer that I would want to assign and kind of conceive that whole thing.
But then there was also just a lot of editing.
So I would be given manuscripts of eight or 10 ,000 words and you'd be given just a paper copy.
So you can't use Microsoft Word track changes, not Google Doc.
Like a red pencil. So the first thing I did was I made about 10 photocopies because I knew it was gonna to take many drafts to get it where my comments were good, then your comments are handwritten all over it, and then you're taping pieces of paper into the margins for where you need to handwrite another 200 words, and then you're having all these arrow diagrams to show, no, this paragraph that's now appearing at the beginning of the third section needs to actually be the first paragraph or the second section.
So basically, I did probably a week or two's worth of editing just to kind of get to the third of what turned out to be seven interviews.
To me, that makes a lot of sense.
I think the logic is, if you're not going to ask someone to be an editor, why don't you see how they edit, as opposed to, let's see if I can have a 45 -minute conversation with them.
So, if you're interviewing yourself, or if you could choose, what's the one question you would be most excited to be asked?
You know the question, and I know this is really meta, so I hope it doesn't explode your brain, but if I were interviewing someone, I would ask them this question, tell me the question that I should ask you that's going to make me hire you.
And I actually got this idea from someone who I did hire and is fantastic.
He runs character lab and he said, if I had asked him, will you eat, breathe, drink, and sleep your work?
He would have said 100%.
And, you know, metaphorically, he does.
I have to say, if you were not a mid -career, accomplished, big -name professor at the University of Pennsylvania, I would definitely offer you a job.
At least a summer internship.
Coming up after the break, a fact check of today's conversation.
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And now here's a fact check of today's conversations.
Angela says that Ben Franklin was an advocate for mild exercise.
Franklin was an avid swimmer and as a boy, he built flippers to propel himself through the water.
Remarkably, in 1968, Franklin was posthumously inducted into the International Swimming Hall of Fame.
However, he did struggle with health issues and suffered from obesity.
He developed gout, which he personified in a satirical conversation entitled Dialogue Between Franklin & Gout.
In the piece, Franklin says to Gout, It is not fair to say I take no exercise when I do very often, going out to dine and returning in my carriage." The disease was not ultimately his cause of death, as Angela surmised.
Franklin died of pleurisy at his home in Philadelphia in 1790.
During Stevens' Librarian or Salesperson Hypothetical, he says that there are 18 million salespeople in the United States, which is about right.
But then he says that there are only about 150 librarians.
Clearly, Steven was miss -speaking.
It would be a very sad world if we only had three librarians per state, so apologies to the librarians of the country.
Steven likely met to guess 150 ,000 librarians, which is roughly accurate.
Finally, Angela refers to the question, how many golf balls are sold in the United States each year, which, in case you're curious, is about 30 million.
She called the question a Fermi question.
A Fermi question is a quickly calculated estimate of something that's hard to measure directly.
It's named for the famous physicist Enrico Fermi, who is known for his impressive ability to quickly approximate difficult scientific calculations.
The Drake equation is one famous example of a Fermi question.
The Drake equation tries to determine the likelihood that we'll make contact with intelligent alien lifeforms by estimating the number of actively communicative extraterrestrial civilizations in our galaxy.
So in case you're asked to do this, at your next job interview, just multiply the average rate of star formation in our galaxy by the fraction of those stars that have planets by the average number of planets per solar system with an environment suitable for life, by the fraction of planets with life that actually go on to develop civilizations, by the fraction of civilizations that develop technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space by the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space.
I'm glad Freakonomics Radio relies on work samples because if they had asked that question, I would be out of a job.
That's it for the Fact Check.
No Stupid Questions is produced by Freakonomics Radio and Stitcher.
This episode was produced by me, Rebecca Lee Douglas.
No Stupid Questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio network.
Our staff includes Alison Kreglow, Greg Ripon, James Foster, and Corinne Wallace.
Our theme song is And She Was by Talking Heads.
special thanks to David Byrne and Warner Chapel music also if you heard Stephen or Angelo refer to something that you'd like to learn more about you can check out Freakonomics comm slash NSQ where we provide links to all of the studies and experts you heard here today thanks for listening well look I'm just one person no you're not I'm two people conversation The Freakonomics radio network, the hidden side of everything.
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