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Work hard and be nice.
Is that basically your career philosophy?
Yeah.
Have I said that exactly before?
I feel like I have.
I feel like that's like the number one.
Um, you know honestly, if I put them in order, it would be.
Be be nice first and work hard.
Uh second not not not, like you know.
Um, don't dismiss working hard, but man being being a good hanger, just being somebody that somebody wants in the room, will take you so far.
I feel like in, in any, any sort of any job atmosphere at all.
Why I would have assumed, especially in music, if you're some virtuoso guitarist, nobody likes an asshole dude.
It doesn't matter how good you are or something.
I, I just, nobody wants that person in the room.
I feel like and and uh.
I just how many times I cannot tell you how many times I've done podcasts, or we've gotten a VIP tour of something, or we had a driver, you know, in LA or in New York.
And then we've been like, you ever had anybody that was just terrible to work with?
And, people just remember that, man.
And it's a lot of times it's people that are like really famous and really successful and very talented.
And and there's just I know that people like drivers and you know people that give Disney world tours and stuff like that are not people that are gonna, you know, help advance your career.
But, but I think that transcends stuff like that.
And um, just being nice to people and making sure everybody it's appreciated and feels comfortable around you.
And I just think it's important.
There's a guy called Paul Graham, who's an investor and a writer from the UK.
He lives in the UK now.
He's got this great idea.
Famous jerks are not role models.
Some talented people are jerks.
And this sometimes makes it seem to the inexperienced that being a jerk is part of being talented.
It isn't.
Being talented is merely how they get away with being a jerk.
Wow.
That's really good.
I think it's true.
Yeah, totally.
100%.
The success is not because of them being an asshole.
The fact that they are successful is how they get away with being an asshole.
Yeah 100 yeah, would you call it a paradox a little bit?
Yeah well, it's certainly uh, it's certainly surprising because it gives people this idea that oh, ego is where the success has been, like uh, cultivated from right, as opposed to the fact that like, the success gave them this buffer zone where people are i can't be too mean to hardy because, like you know like, look at all the songs he does and stuff, but he's So I mean it's kind of surprising because I think a lot of people in jobs they see it as being transactional, that if you are good at X, you will get Y, But there's the packaging that your talent comes in which is like well, you were good, hang.
How are you on the bus?
What's your morale like when you've done three shows in three days and everybody's tired?
It's like, are you the one that brings everybody up?
Or are you the one that's like, ah, dude, this is so tough.
This is so hard.
I'm missing the water.
Everyone's doing that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's very true, man.
And it's just, I've always just kind of thought that it's like it takes way more effort to be, you know, like an asshole than just to be nice.
And there's, I mean, I've, I've had my moments.
I mean for sure where I just I'm.
I'm exhausted or mentally drained, or my meter is at an all time zero.
And And those are moments where I feel like I just get more quiet more than, more than anything.
But, um man, it's just so much easier to be just nice to people and and just keep a smile on your face and keep it light and just do do what you gotta do.
And even if it's something you don't want to do, you do it anyway and, and, and have fun with it.
And I don't know, it just seems way less effort to do that.
And your experience is being a good guy uh, performance enhancer, rather than trying to be ruthless and screwing people over.
What do you mean by that?
If you're a nice person, are they the ones that end up winning in the end?
Because there is a sense that ruthlessness and being cutthroat and you know, sort of like going for it aggressive, lean in, oh well, that's how you achieve success.
I don't think, i don't think there's a real, true answer to that, because i think there's tons of people i think I would like to think that more nice people win certainly but um, I don't think it's true every time by any means.
Well, I'm interested for you, especially about the tension between being a songwriter and an artist, right.
Because you've got, you're part of the Nashville engine.
I was talking to a friend yesterday who put you as, like one of the best three songwriters in Nashville, which is probably about as competitive as it can be.
That's very nice.
Um, but you're behind the scenes.
You were behind the scenes.
Then you become in front of the scenes and now you've got to try and balance these two worlds.
Uh, what's the?
What's the tension like between being artists and also being, um like, contributor to other artists at the same time?
I try not to think about it really.
Um, you know, I mean I've.
I'm very thankful to have started out as a songwriter because I feel like I can jump right in and never skip a beat.
I can tour for six months or whatever and barely write a song, and then just jump right in and write for somebody else.
And it's not difficult at all.
But I've never really thought about the balance or the pressure between the two at all.
I mean, to be completely candid, touring is a lot more lucrative than songwriting.
So a little bit of that takes the pressure off of having to make a career out of songwriting.
But I have.
I just want to write hits for other people so bad that I will just never not want to do that.
It's why I moved to town.
It's my first love.
And I just love having great songs and like giving that song to somebody and hoping that it helps their career and and all that, but i've never really felt pressure.
There's definitely been times where i have been like okay, like i'll hit up my management or link my management and my publishing and be like, hey guys, we need to find a balance, like i need to write more songs because it's just, it's a tank that i have, that if it's, if it's empty i, you know, i feel a little bit less sense of purpose if i haven't been writing songs, whether no matter what they may be, and and so um, you know, there's times where I become a little more aware that I need to, I need to sort of re redistribute my, my time.
But um I've, I've never really felt the pressure to to do one more than the other or, like you know, once one's fallen behind I, you know, I try to keep them even, or anything like that.
It's, it's just, I don't know.
I try to try to take the pressure off myself.
And I think it makes for more creativity and better, better creative moments and stuff.
When you don't feel pressure to write hits or like pressure to write so many songs or anything like that, what if you write?
What if you write a real slammer?
There must be a sense in your mind where you go.
What do i?
Is this a me?
Do i just like, keep this one in the in the hardy folder, or is?
Yeah, that happens a lot, it happens all the time.
Um they uh, it's funny i uh, there's a lot of songs though, that i just it's a slammer, but it's just not for me.
And and and uh, there's a lot of time, a lot of writers that i have, even friends of mine that i'm that are like you sure, or like i can tell i'm like man, this would be good for, this would be great for, you know, blake shelton, and and they're like oh yeah cool, you know, and maybe you was right yeah yeah um, but even that is very i usually know.
But, but by the time we get like verse chorus if i'm gonna, if i'm gonna, cut the song or if i'm gonna, you know, give it to someone else or or hopefully, give it to someone else.
I was talking to uh, john bellion.
He was on the show a couple of weeks ago and um, obviously he took this big hiatus from being an artist to just do the songwriting thing and he said he knew when uh, he was ready to get back to producing music because he would have, you know, this list of demos or whatever.
He'd have 15 demos and he'd be showing it to uh whoever was in the studio with him, and there would always be one or two tracks that he would just like he'd skip over the top of, he'd leave that one to one side.
He'd never showed that.
Yeah, i thought that was so cute.
He was like oh, i really really like that.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah.
For me i, the la approach is very different, i think, and but i will say, like i don't ever play anybody my best stuff like ever until it's until it's out.
I just like the big reveal of them and uh, you know, the the keep it a secret.
I just feel like it's more of like an explosion when it comes out, even with your friends and stuff you know it's to get Nashville.
Talking about a song is very it's just as important as like the public hearing about it.
I think, I just think that people buzz about a song and and um, I don't know what it is, but there's just something about Nashville buzzing about a song that that just helps it always.
What do people not understand about how the Nashville scene works?
In what way?
Generally.
I mean, it is a, it's a fucking engine for music.
It's a factory for music.
Uh, but at least from, from my perspective, the fact that you have uh, a room where anybody who typically you've got, like the the writer, credit of dude.
You were over the far side chewing on a toothpick or whatever.
Like, thank you for being in the room.
You contributed to this.
The fact that you will have multiple different rooms going at one time and artists will bounce between those if they're really, really trying to crank it.
Um, It seems to me like there aren't many scenes like Nashville when it comes to writing music, maybe anywhere on the planet.
It's very different.
I mean, I think Nashville's work ethic is better than other cities I've written in.
I think that top liners like lyric and melody, or at least lyric writers, storytellers, I think it's the best in the world.
I think that Nashville has the greatest storytellers. in the world uh and it is it's a machine and it all starts with the song which i think is really cool man and like right now today what time is it right now it's it's 10 11 right now there are more there's probably 300 rooms of people writing songs right now in nashville trying to get the next hit excuse me and there's a lot of those songs that are going to be have potential to be the next you know and within the next year a big old hit and it's it's it's kind of off to the races from there you know that's i think it's the coolest thing ever is there something about country as a musical style, which affords storytelling, uh, more room than other genres do?
Yeah, sure.
I think that can go back to a long time ago.
And I, you know, like, and what's, uh, much of country music's biggest songs have been stories.
And so I just think it's a pattern if that's kind of what you're getting at.
Um, I mean basically, are you just saying like why is it easier or more common to write stories in country than any other thing?
To a degree, yeah.
And then is there something to do with the structure of country as a genre which affords more room for story time, like a rock, right?
Or just very unique ways to piece a story together and then keep on looping things back.
I don't know.
That's a really good question.
If I was to put my total amateur theory forward.
Uh, it's so lyric driven, it's so vocals heavy yeah, but are there many country songs where people go dude?
I just love the riff, right.
Well no, but with something like um, caramel by sleep token, that plucky little intro thing that it has is as yeah, exactly like it.
Almost the first time i ever heard it i thought is this like some like reggaeton, jamaican inspired?
Because it almost does have that sound like.
Yeah, so i'm like all right well, that is as much a part.
And if you move into metal or more hard stuff well, the riff actually can be the lead.
That's what people love.
But with country, very rarely is it going to be that it's much more about it's way less about the music.
For sure, like their arrangement um, i think that producers would argue, you know, like you, my producer joey, is like you got to fill the space and, And you know, takes a lot of time to in the studio to make sure like the parts are right and that everything is catchy and there's just a bunch of that all the spaces are filled.
But no, it is very much it's it's it's it's all about the the lyrics.
You're right.
And very.
I mean, the vocal is out front and that's everything.
At least right now, people can argue that, like that, that sub genre of country that's like whiskey, Myers and and a lot of the sync countries like which is like S, Y and C.
Like you know, a lot of the stuff that you hear on the TV shows and stuff is more about music and and less about lyric.
But, um, I don't know.
I can't really speak to that, but, um, no, you're, you're totally right.
I, it's, it's just the way it's always been.
And and the country country has never really been about anything other than the lyrics and the vocal you know, or both at the same time.
Hmm.
Talk to me about where inspiration and creativity comes from for you or what sort of your creative process looks like, because you've got a bunch of stuff going on um, high volume uh, writing for other people.
I've heard you say it's between sort of two and three days a week that you're cranking that out.
Yeah.
On a good, like when, in a good, yeah.
When you're not on tour and you've got a little bit of time, maybe not on your dad.
Um, but then you've also got your own stuff.
You've got your own obligations, but then you've also got this balance between volume of output and quality of output.
You can't be doing five songs a day, three days a week and maximizing in the same way that you would if it was spending a little bit more time.
So I'm interested in this balance.
Yeah.
Inspiration and creativity with output.
I mean, you know, the one cool thing about Nashville before I even get into this is we all stand, the songwriters all stand on each other's shoulders and you know, thankfully there's so much like collaboration and and um um camaraderie within that.
You know in Nashville that, like you know, you go into a room with some people and and um, like I might be exhausted.
I might have not been in a good like idea headspace.
And uh, You go in and, like your buddy or whoever you're writing with, has the idea, and it's just like oh, thank god, you know That pressure is off and now I can just latch on to this idea and help write this in the room.
But you know um, So that you know.
So, your collaborators always make it a lot easier on you.
It's like If you and I, or it's like if you ask me to move this table across the room, or we got six people to do it and the weight is a lot lighter, and that's what it's always felt like for me.
So Um, first and foremost, if you don't have an idea, don't don't let your panic or your um, your inhibition put that, you know the cloud over your creative bubble.
Um, because you just have to always trust that somebody is going to have something if you don't, you know and that that helps with the creative process.
But uh man, for me, I just I have a running list of uh, I'll scroll fast and nobody steals my shit.
Yeah yeah, we can, we can, we can blur it, i'll see.
So i can.
Yeah, because i'm writing after this today too, amazing.
Um, but these are just all song, either lines or notes or whatever, and it dates back to like probably 10 years ago.
It's just a running list of notes.
Mine is short.
I see people scroll through theirs and they're super long and i'm like, damn bro well, you keep on turning them into songs.
Well, that's true.
That's true.
And then you have to delete it.
Sometimes it's like sad.
You're like damn, I've been looking at that idea for you know two or three years and you delete it.
But man, yeah.
And you know, I know that's not exactly what you were getting at, but I love talking about this because it's so, like any other office or whatever it may be.
It's like you walk you, you everybody has their ideas and then you walk into a publishing house or somebody.
Usually a lot of times these days it's either somebody's studio or their home studio or but, like you, just walk in and you know everybody now.
So it's just like, it's, there's, there's not, it's not this like light a candle Kumbaya, you know, like somebody's like, man, I just went through this horrible heartbreak.
Let's blah, blah, blah.
You know, it's just, it's not like that.
And, but I love that.
It's that we can like, take a moment where we're, we're walking in and we're like well, you know, and and you get, you get down to business and you know, I'm a big deer hunter.
And most of a lot of Nashville riders are big deer hunters.
So right now we're just talking about deer hunting.
And then everybody goes, Oh, well, let's see here.
And then somebody was like heart, you know, hearts on fire.
And you just start throwing out random ideas.
And, uh, and it's just one of them sticks.
And then you write it because everybody in the room is a professional songwriter.
And then a year later, it's like a seven week number one, dude.
It's like it's just crazy to me, but it's it's, but I what I'm getting at is how not?
Um, it's not like it's not, as you would never think that.
It's like not a creative, you know from the heart kind of thing, because it's country music and like these, the stories are so good and they make people cry.
But, but the songwriters like myself and other people, it's like, we're not crying in the room, but when we write a line, we're like, this is going to, this is going to hammer somebody.
It's going to make, like you know, but and we mean that not in a funny way, but like in a very like you know like this is going to help a lot.
Like when I, when we wrote wait in the truck, when we like finished that song and Jordan Schmidt and his home studio like played that song top down, we all looked at each other and we were like dude, this is going to destroy some people.
And that's like, we did our job that day.
But anyway, it's just, I love the creative process.
I probably went way off on a tangent, but I love talking about how not creative the creative process looks and we're not sitting in a vibey room.
And some places are like that, and that's totally fine.
I know LA, it's a lot more about getting in the mood and Waving sage, or burning some sage, waving that around.
Yeah, you know, and certain candles that smell a certain way and all that.
But man in Nashville, it's truly just a bunch of normal guys and girls, normal-looking people that are just – their brains are just wired different and they're incredibly good at what they do.
But they – you know, and it just – you just would never know it, and I just think that's the coolest thing ever.
Some of the most creative people in the world – some people in the world – some people in this town have – the ability to make people like ball their eyes out, that live anywhere that can speak English.
You know, and they just are like a, you know, a chubby dude that just goes to the grocery store every other day and lets his dogs out every night, you know, in the afternoon.
Like it's just, it's cool to me.
It's like the coolest thing ever.
That's sick, man.
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The only equivalent that I can get from my world writing and podcasting is.
Sometimes i'll come across something that i've never heard of before.
There was this uh love letter that richard feinman wrote um to his wife.
I stumbled upon it and was thinking about it for ages before i actually talked about it because i didn't know if i could say it without crying.
And it's basically this uh love letter to his wife darlene, that he hasn't written for quite a long time.
And then, about two-thirds of the way through the love letter, you find out that she's dead and he's writing this to his wife that's passed away.
Oh my god, dude.
So I like, ah it's.
Do you want me to read it to you?
Let me read it to you.
I don't know.
I don't think I've ever cried on camera before, but sure.
Let's see if we can do it.
Jesus Christ.
Well, I've already uh, literally just like saying it, but you've already, at least you've given it away.
So it takes the shock away on you a little bit.
All right.
October 17th, 1946 to Arlene.
I adore you, sweetheart.
I know how much you like to hear that, but I don't only write it because you like it.
I write it because it makes me warm all over inside to write it to you.
It is such a terribly long time since I last wrote to you almost two years but I know you'll excuse me because you understand how I am stubborn and realistic and I thought there was no sense to writing.
But now I know, my darling wife, that it is right to do what I have delayed in doing and that I have done so much in the past.
I want to tell you I love you.
I want to love you.
I will always love you.
Can't I do something now?
No, I'm alone. without you.
And you were the idea woman and general instigator of all our wild adventures.
When you were sick, you worried that you could not give me something that you wanted to and thought I needed.
You needn't have worried.
Just as I told you then, there was no real need because I loved you in so many ways so much.
And now it is clearly even more true.
You can give me nothing.
Now, Yet, I love you so that you stand in my way of loving anyone else.
But I want you to stand there.
You, dead, are so much better than anyone else alive.
I know you will assure me that I am foolish and that you want me to have full happiness and don't want to be in my way.
I bet you are surprised that I don't even have a girlfriend, except you sweetheart, after two years.
But you can't help it, darling, nor can I.
I don't understand it, for I have met many girls, and very nice ones, and I don't want to remain alone.
But in two or three meetings, they all seem ashes.
You only are left to me.
You are real.
My darling wife, I do adore you.
I love my wife.
My wife is dead.
P.S.
Please excuse my not mailing this, but I don't know your new address.
Oh my god.
Jesus, man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's insane.
It's, like, is that real?
That's a real thing he did for his real wife?
So, like, there's still, there's so much poetry in that.
I mean, there's so much to me part of the gag or the like.
The trick is not revealing the thing until it's like the perfect time, right.
So, like that's the thing you know, I struggle to know what it means to love you after you are dead.
Yeah.
And and and the songwriting.
From a songwriting you would probably wait to the very end.
You know to do that.
But even still, like it's waiting on that is such a poetic, it's such a, I mean, it's, it's a simple, you know, we call it a trick, but, but, uh, yeah, that's, that's beautiful.
I mean it's.
I'm trying to think of a song that I have, or that I know of, that has like a twist at the very end of a song.
Um, but you kind of have to like, Oh shit, I gotta listen to that again.
You know, like I missed, I missed it.
It's like an M night Shyamalan movie and you miss like Christopher Nolan or whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you're like, wait, he was dead the whole time, but he was talking to that person.
Wait, he wasn't talking to her.
She was talking to nobody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's it.
That's it.
Those are, those are the best man.
So for me, finding something like that is the kind of equivalent of going into the room and being like fuck like, is this right?
Is this?
And then you finally find something and you go, this deserves to get out there.
Like, this is how can I craft this in a way?
There's other little bits and pieces.
Most of the time, it's not a big chunk, right?
It's you tell a story and then you repurpose it.
You rework it around.
I've heard you say dark songs tell the truth in a way happy songs can't.
Yeah, it's weird, how so i don't know because people, maybe it's just me, maybe i'm just like just dark, darker than maybe i even think i am, but like i have just like songs about dark things, even if there's a hopeful, like a weight in the truck.
You know that's like a very it's like a hero story, but people just gravitate towards that more.
I've always found i don't know why, but like I'm trying to think of another good example, but I don't know.
I mean, again, maybe I haven't done a study.
I haven't surveyed a thousand people, but it just seems that sad songs or really really good heartbreak songs or people dying songs even if they have a happy uh lesson in them, like a live like you were dying, kind of thing there's just people, people attach themselves to that stuff more.
Um, i do think that there's a lot of like a lot of dark moments in people's lives and i think that you know, if you, if you can find a way to relate to that and that be a song, then you're gonna probably attach to that.
You know pretty, pretty hard, but um Yeah,
I don't know why, but I just, I feel like, and it's so weird.
Dark songs are so much easier to write.
You think?
Yeah.
For me, I mean for me personally, and it's like if you have a, you know, if somebody threw out a song called the best day ever or whatever, you know I'd be like I don't know man.
The worst day ever.
Yeah.
I'd be like, how would you do that?
How would you spend, would you spend that a certain way?
Or like, yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's weird.
Maybe that's just me.
My wife kind of she kind of gives me hell a lot and uh, or let's just say, gives me encouragement because uh, i'll you know this last record i had spoke a lot about mortality like a lot and uh, a lot of it was in a very positive way of like, appreciate your life now, because you know one day you won't be here.
But um, she was like you need to write happier songs, stop fucking whining.
Yeah yeah dude, you're so emo like yeah yeah like, write some happier stuff.
So maybe i should, but it's just it's, it's not as easy.
It's well, i guess uh, luke comes out.
Maybe the one before last um, that was everything's great and life's going well and you know, dad's getting a bit older but my son's growing up and he misses we when i'm away, but my wife's good and you're like okay well that's, that's a pivot right from like this is broken and that's not so great.
Yeah true yeah, he kind of had the emo in his own way and cut the fringe off.
Yeah yeah yeah um Yeah, it is a really interesting blend to think about why people resonate.
Here's one thing.
I think people feel alone in their sadness in a way that causes them to try and seek companionship or comfort.
So like, fuck, somebody else feels that.
Yeah.
As opposed to, if everything's going great and if you're happy, yeah, sure, it's nice that someone else is also happy along with you it's just hard to like relate to somebody that's it's so weird i don't know why that is a thing but you're totally right you're like you're having a great i'm having a great day you know like nobody ever says that but if somebody's having a bad day you're like oh my god come here let me yeah exactly um yeah every man knows god when he's at his lowest right you reflect so much more uh there's this cool story from a coach of mine joe he talks about his daughter she was like nine at the time and um she was crying in the bathroom um and the way that she was crying he said you you don't sound that sad to me you sound pissed off and she's like i am so well you know when you're when you're crying in the bathroom how often you pissed off and how often you sad he says about half the time he's like well how can you cry like why why are you crying If you're angry, half the time.
If you're pissed off, how come you're crying?
And she says, well, when I'm angry, everybody runs away.
But when I cry, my sister comes and looks after me.
I just thought it was such a brilliant insight into this sort of the pro-social, not seductive but like attractive gravitational force of sadness.
Mm-hmm.
And I think a lot of the time.
Even when people are mad, they sometimes turn into being sad, because when people are mad, others run away.
But when they're sad, people come and help them.
Yeah.
I wonder if that's maybe a little bit.
I don't know.
That's a weird, that's strange dynamic grooves of your brain.
Like cause nobody, nobody is outwardly thinking like maybe if I just act like I'm sad, that's like some caveman brain thing.
That's been around a long time, but people do it for some reason.
That's crazy.
Yeah, I think so.
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You said new album, a lot of mortality.
What inspired that?
I don't know.
It's just that maybe a headspace I've been in of, uh, appreciating life a little bit more.
Um, you know we we, I was in a pretty bad bus accident a couple of years ago and it kind of opened my eyes to a lot of uh, just how, how it can kind of go like that.
And, uh, it's a miracle that any of us survive.
We all survive.
It's a my mortality, or the fragility of my mortality, or my life, whatever that, however that's supposed to be worded um, it is.
It just has been a little a more apparent thing uh, for me recently and, and so i think that's why i don't really know, but and i've already like the songs i've written since that record, like nothing, nobody's died, i haven't died, i'm not gonna die, you know, but it's just i had to get it out.
I don't know what it was, but there's, you know, there's songs about like, there's songs about appreciating it and there's songs about like.
I mean, I don't know.
I have to kind of go back and read the track list now, but there's, it kind of touches just on different, different ways to approach your, your mortality.
And yeah, I just think it probably has to do a lot with the headspace that I've been in post bus wreck.
It's been three years but.
But I've kind of been writing this record for a year and a half or two years.
So it was still pretty fresh at the time.
Would you mind telling the story about the bus?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We played a show in Bristol.
It was a Saturday night in Bristol.
I was opening for Morgan and then we decided to leave early so we could get back to town, because Bristol, Tennessee is only like four hours away.
And you gain an hour, so it doesn't feel like you get in quite as late, you know?
So we were 20 miles from town, maybe less.
We were like 15 miles back from town and my tour manager at the time was already sleeping in his bunk and um, my photographer and i were awake in the front lounge listening to something listening to music and uh, my bus driver pulled over on the side of the road and got.
He came and went to the bathroom.
He stayed in there like five minutes, which was really weird, especially being this close to town.
But we didn't, you know, we were drinking, we didn't really think anything about it, we were just like it's kind of weird.
And um came out of the bathroom and i was like ricky you good, and he ignored me, which we were like what is he?
But he had his bluetooth thing in, so we always wonder if he was on the phone.
So i stepped up and i was like ricky you good, and he's like yep, all good.
I was like all right man, you know, we'll be there in a minute or whatever, I guess.
And anyway we started going back down the road and then we just just the bus just went off in this like bottom.
We flipped like three times over.
And you're still in the front lounge.
So you're not strapped in at all.
Yeah.
Somebody said like shoes in a, in a washing or shoes in a dryer.
Uh and uh.
So what?
Just because you must be sat, and then feel the bus, we got well, we felt the rumble strips and then we felt us like going off the road, like you know every now, and then your driver will hit like rumble strips and you're everybody's like oh, but we felt the left side hit the rumble strips and we knew we were going off the road and um it just i don't know what it was, but when it flipped it got airborne for a second.
I, i could just.
There was a moment of like silence before the thing and me and tanner looked at each other and then just We both just like boom.
It was like the hardest force I've ever felt in my life just got thrown to the other side.
And then we both were like instantly knocked out.
So I don't remember anything else, but the way the bus was laying.
It's like if it's driving down the road like this right.
It flipped here and then it flipped here and then it flipped here.
And that's where we like ended or whatever.
But I woke up, I was the first one to wake up, which sucked.
And my head was like wedged under this, the window, which had busted out.
And um and I.
There was like glass everywhere and there was a piece of glass from the window like stuck in my head.
And I just had to like pull my head out front of this thing.
And, uh, I walked up, it was just, we went down a really steep hill.
So I had to walk up.
It wasn't like steep, like that ceiling by any means, but it was probably a 15 foot, you know, like hill or whatever.
And, um, it was cold.
It was like 35 degrees.
And I was trying, I could not flag down a car.
It was like four in the morning, three or four in the morning.
And so I could not get a car.
I didn't have my phone.
I'm blind without my glasses.
So I couldn't see.
I thought everybody in the bus was dead because no, everybody was, nobody was conscious.
Um, so I was just helpless.
Like I didn't know what to do.
And so I went back to the bus to try to find my phone, but I couldn't fucking see.
So like, and I didn't have, and I was wearing all black, so I couldn't find anything.
I mean, the bus looked like, it looked like a bomb went off in there.
It was just, it was just, you can't even describe it.
You had to Google it, but, um, but yeah, uh, went back up to the highway.
I'm, I'm in the road.
I had a white circle on my hoodie and I'm in the road, like shaking it and then running to the side.
Nobody would stop.
Um, and then I heard my photographer uh wake up and he was screaming bloody murder.
All this thing.
And And um, and then my tour manager.
Somehow he was blocked in the back, that the door was shut to the.
You know, have you been on a tour bus?
Like, yeah, the doors, you know, so that door was shut.
Somehow he got it open.
And, uh, I mean, he's all banged up and he's like looking at me like you're looking at me right now.
And I was like, I know.
And I was like, we have to have a phone now.
And it was a miracle.
His phone somehow and all of that craziness had gotten from his bunk to the front lounge like slid somewhere.
And it was at the bottom of a pile of like rubble inside the bus.
And the second.
I said we have to get a phone right now.
His alarm to wake up, because we would have gotten back to town went off.
And so I literally reached down and moved all the whatever the hell it was got.
His phone called 911.
We were thankfully one exit away from like a hospital exit.
It was like an exit built for like a big hospital complex. ambulance was there in like five minutes.
And, uh, yeah.
So, all that being said uh, rest in peace, Ricky.
Ricky, we we wrecked because he had a brain tumor he didn't know about.
And so he had either an aneurysm or a stroke or a seizure.
It was probably a seizure, because he he they sent him to Vanderbilt because they were asking him questions and he didn't know what day it was or where he was.
And they were like, okay, he's had trauma.
We need to get him somewhere.
And they didn't find it for like a week but come to find he had a brain tumor, ended up killing him about a year later.
Tanner broke like every my photographer broke like every bone in his body.
And I just laugh and we can laugh about it now because it was just crazy.
But I remembered seeing his his bone.
He had a compound fracture that broke the skin.
So he had a bone sticking out of the top of his foot and he came out.
He kept telling the uh, we're late.
We're in now we're in the bus and we're helping.
And I'm just you know, the ambulance is there and he kept pulling on his bone and he was like there's a stick in my foot.
Pull it on it.
It's a bone.
But, um, yeah, Tanner broke his neck, his ribs, his back, his foot.
He was, I mean, he was so mainly smaller guy.
And um, I uh Noah, the guy in the bunk, he actually turned out the best cause he he didn't.
He was just yeah yeah yeah, exactly.
And he was pretty banged up, but no serious injuries.
And um, I just had a concussion and like a few staples in my head and I fractured my back, but it wasn't even like not very serious.
You know what I mean?
I, like I hurt for a couple months.
It's a compression fracture.
So I guess when we hit I think my spine just did like an accordion.
Do you feel a little bit shorter than you did before?
I physically was like a half an inch shorter, but they missed it in the hospital.
And I, like a week later, Kat, my wife and I are on a walk.
And, um, I was like, man, I feel this like jolt of just like pain that goes through my body.
Hmm.
And I got, went and got an x-ray and it was like a bunch of square vertebrae.
And then one just looked like that right in the middle.
And they call that a compression fat fracture.
And I said you know I haven't gotten it.
Looked at again but said it takes six, eight months to.
There's nothing you can do.
You just, it kind of gets back to normal and go steady.
But all that being said, um, yeah, it was a very, very, uh, just unpredictable.
You know, when you think about it, like we weren't, we didn't deal with a drunk driver.
We didn't hit a deer or just, you know what I mean?
We didn't, there wasn't icy, there was no snow, no bad weather.
It wasn't because he was being negligent.
No, he just he had a brain episode and and it just happened to be then, you know, I mean, it's such a freak thing.
Do you think that his trips to the bathroom, uh, before were early or there's something going on?
I don't feel too right.
I forgot.
I spoke to that.
That's exactly what was happening.
So he was entering into i think it was an aneurysm um, but he had.
Whatever had happened had happened and it was slowly getting worse and worse or whatever um, and it's so funny i've heard my dad had a good friend, uh that he used to work uh, my dad was a high school referee football referee and And one of his best friends had an aneurysm as a referee on the field.
And it was just very similar because he said his name was Lewis.
And he said, Lewis, they looked over and he was laid out.
And they just thought he got knocked over by a player.
And he got up and he was like, no, I'm fine.
But every minute that went by, he was acting crazier and weirder.
And then sure enough, he almost died.
But it was a miracle, man.
You should Google, if you Google just like my name in the bus accident, the pictures will come up.
There's one of the inside of the bus.
Look it up.
That's pretty gnarly.
Fuck.
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I'm interested.
First off, i'm really really glad that you guys are all still here and it feels thank you, man a lot like a miracle.
Secondly, i've been on a good few tour buses uh, single deckers to double deckers, especially around europe.
That's scary, dude.
That would have been different.
Yeah yeah yeah um, But every single time, especially on a double decker, when you're at the front lounge on the top, it's you and a piece of glass and then just the road right in front of you.
Yeah.
Every single time that I've been on a bus like that, that's been moving.
There is a bit of me that goes like in cars, you're supposed to have your seatbelt on at all times.
Yeah.
You need to spend a lot of time touring, which means you're going to have to be back in a bus a good bit.
And you would have had to have got back on a bus.
Yeah.
What was the first time that you got back on a tour bus for a long night journey?
Like after that experience?
And sort of how are you now with that?
This was a journey.
This was like a very long.
So I forgot to mention, but this was three weeks before my wedding.
My wife was on her bachelorette party the last night.
Again, it was three in the morning.
They're in New Orleans.
They're all hammered, having a great time.
I FaceTime her and I'm just like bleeding, bleeding out of my nose and my head.
I just look like you know.
I look like I've been in a car accident and I'm freaking out because I've hit my head really hard and I'm actually pretty with it.
But I just I like a brain injury has always freaked me out.
And I know how that works is.
Sometimes you can hit your head and then you don't know it till like hours later, if you don't go get it checked out.
And da da, da da.
And anyway, so I was like, hey, I like we've been in a bus wreck.
Like, I love you.
I don't know what's going to happen.
We're going to hospital right now.
And so she's freaking out.
So all that because – and that's my number one thought was, like, I have to get married.
Like, I literally – I have my wedding.
Like, do not fucking – you know, like, you're going to be fine.
Don't die before the wedding.
Don't die before the wedding.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
So all that being said, we got married.
We went to – the week – like a week or two after that was CMA week, which was very busy, and it was a time where – which is – this week is also CMA week.
I was –
I think I'm pretty sure I was like nominated for a lot.
It was a very busy, like a good, like successful week, but I was like a lot going on that week.
Um, bandage wrapped around your head.
Yeah.
I had one, I wouldn't be in my songwriter of the year that year.
Um, just a lot of.
And then, immediately after the like the night of the CMAs, Callie and I, my wife and I, flew to LA to go to Thailand for our honeymoon.
So after the wreck, I never had like a time, time to like process it.
It was just like got better and when I could kind of walk and you know had my head was kind of in good shape, like it was like getting ready for the wedding.
It was like immediately.
So that December I played a few shows that were not very long runs and we took the bus.
But I wouldn't go overnight, I would do it in the morning, like we would leave early in the morning and make like that six or seven hours.
That was daylight, you can.
You know you're talking to the bus driver and And that was to make you feel more comfortable, to avoid the travel anxiety.
Right.
And it was a different, obviously a different driver than what he's the guy still have now.
And he's great, but there's just something about you know, having the door open to the front and seeing him in there and just know him wearing good hands and all that.
And he's driving like 40 miles an hour on the interstate to make sure we're comfortable.
But, um, it, it was really bad.
Uh, I still just had any sort of bumps or anything.
It was.
It was really tough.
But a year later, uh to uh, the day uh of the bus accident, out of nowhere, i had a full-blown panic attack on the golf course, thinking i was having a heart attack, and i've never had one before.
I've had very mild anxiety, mostly hangover induced, you know what i mean.
Like it's just some would.
It was somewhere.
I didn't want to be blah blah blah, but i've never really had like true crippling anxiety, that like is real anxiety and um.
And then the next night I had, I had like two back to back and I was like I don't know what is going on.
And um went to, went to this intensive therapy thing and we kind of dug up the bus and I did a lot of what they call EMDR therapy.
Yep.
And um man it.
Since then I did that and this other thing at a different facility, where they they like run these like electrical, like things through your brain and sort of help, sort of center back your thought process or whatever.
And between those two things, I haven't even thought about, I'll think about it, but it's such a distant, not scary memory now.
Um, I really truly have rewired that, logically processed how random and crazy and improbable the uh, you know it is to happen again and all that.
So long story, but that's that's that's.
It took a year Uh, and and then kind of my brain it sort of you know it all kind of came back cause I never really processed it.
And, but when the weather got cold and the leaves kind of started changing and you know what I mean?
I kind of started associating with, with that time of year again, it just, it came out of me.
It was crazy.
Yeah.
We're here, man.
And I got still got a staple that my head swallowed somewhere that the doctor the, The doctor was like it's in there, but you'll be all right.
It'll be fine.
You're setting off the metal detectors every time you fly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, every time I get an MRI, I'm like, I'm going to just leave that.
Maybe it'll fly out.
Holy shit, man.
I mean, I was in the only equivalent I have.
When I was 20, I got hit head-on by a snowplow at 60 miles an hour.
In a car?
Yeah, I was driving.
So the snowplow sort of listed across into our lane and just clipped us like that far into the car.
But when it's a snowplow, all fucking, both airbags deployed, windscreen shattered it like, came down my side so the door was up against the sort of side of my shoulder, but the car stayed on the road so we just pulled over.
But that moment where you said i looked at my other uh buddy, while it was like during it happening uh, was exactly the same thing.
I looked at my business partner for like a split second, which i can still see like what that looks like and feels like now.
But the travel anxiety thing in a much much, much less bad crash than yours with you know, I walked away from it for three, four months afterward.
If I was ever in a contra flow without a central reservation, because the side that you drive on.
And you're on the left side.
Correct.
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes sense.
Okay.
I was trying to figure out how.
Yeah.
Sorry about that.
Uh, it is the right side of the road, though.
Um the you're, you are next to cars coming toward you, and that's how.
That's the reason that you drive on that side, so that you know how far you are from other cars, so that it's not on the off side, so that you don't accidentally clip someone.
That makes sense.
But, and it's the same here right, just other side of the road, you're still on the inside, right against the traffic that's coming that way, but what that means is you've got, you know, vehicles that are sometimes only four feet away from you going in.
And that's just how people drive.
That's how the roads work.
But that made me feel, uh, that made me feel very, very anxious.
And given the fact that that was me from an incident, way less I yeah, it must be the fact that you've done the EMDR and whatever that um like electrodes.
I know exactly what you're talking about.
They do it at ways to well in Austin.
Um, that's a real credit to the effectiveness of those sorts of treatments.
Totally for overcoming that, because that's now liberated you to be able to go back and do your thing.
Yes, totally.
How much worse would your quality of life be if you hadn't gone through?
You'd still be random panic attacks with fucking oh, here comes october, november again, like ready for the golf course panic attack to happen.
Yeah dude, and and the thing is is like it.
There were so many thoughts because like that happened and then that panic kind of for some reason had it was like it all just sort of came back and I was like I'm not going to be able to tour anymore.
Like, what am I going to do?
I don't even know who I am.
As a like, my brain is in a completely horrible place and, like tour, I rely on touring and, like you know, like I mean it was just.
It was a mess for a second, but I got it fixed really quick.
So.
Do you think vulnerability and talking about emotions is becoming more acceptable in male artists now?
I think so.
And I hope that it gets better.
You know, I don't think that anybody that talks about that is considered soft by any means.
And I know a lot of.
I've talked to a lot of artists, very successful artists that deal with their.
They're just like man.
My anxiety has been so bad recently.
And I just I wish the more public you can make it and the more like people that can openly share that they deal with stuff.
Then the next time you're going through something, if you're in an award show or something, you can just go find your buddy and be like hey, I'm freaking out.
The more acceptable it is.
I feel like a big part of depression and anxiety that makes it worse is the shame that comes with it, because it's not supposed to be okay or you're considered weak or an inconvenience or whatever that may be.
And I just think the more open especially men are about their mental health, the less the more that the shame and the guilt and the burden and all that will just sort of go away.
Especially with artists.
I mean, we're not, we're not, human beings were not designed to be famous.
We weren't designed to just to travel, and to especially artists.
We weren't designed to like experience insane levels of serotonin and adrenaline three nights in a row, four or five nights in a row.
Sometimes uh there's, there's a lot that.
That's that, you know.
People are going to roll their eyes.
I know.
And just be like, well, grasses must be nice, blah, blah, blah.
But man, it's just, it's a mental thing that you go through that, like you know.
It's just, it's different.
It's just, I don't think that our brains are wired to experience some of the stuff that singers or anybody anybody that's a public figure experiences and can take a toll on you.
Male, female, whatever age, whatever.
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I've heard you say country boys feel everything.
They just don't talk about it.
Yeah, that's true.
Just bury it deep on down.
That's like the, that's the philosophy.
My grandfather used to say uh, talking about my grandmother, you know she'd have a bad day and he would just say Oh, she's got that damn depression again.
Like it was a, like it was a flare up, you know, like it was a rash or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The pollen count is high today.
The depression count is high today.
Damn depression again.
Fuck.
Well, yeah, I think so.
I think especially in the country, people just didn't have time.
They didn't have the, uh, I don't know.
It was like, it was like, you just, you, yeah, kind of like, there's no time to worry about that.
We've got to, we've got to figure out how to make a living and whatever, whatever that may be.
I think that's an interesting point.
Um, and I guess ties into what you said about the bus story, that if you're super busy, if you've got lots to do, if there's uh, uh tasks to be completed, can pretty easily sort of suppress and hide away little whispers.
Yeah.
Distraction fleeting thoughts.
Well, I mean, Yeah, sure.
Maybe I get a little anxious on the bus, but I've got the show to play tonight.
And the underlying emotion is swept away by a much bigger emotion.
Sure.
Which is the dopamine, the serotonin, the adrenaline, all that stuff.
But I do think, certainly in the music industry, on that ascendancy thing, people can hide the emotions that they should be paying a lot of attention to with the energy and the adorate.
I mean i'm on tour at the moment.
I played the cannery in nashville this week and i was, i was in, i did boston chicago nashville, back to back to back.
So three shows, three states, three days this week and um some, something that happens at the first show by the third show you can't even remember.
That's happened.
Yeah, like where the?
I i accidentally called oh no, i accidentally called uh, nashville.
Sorry, i called chicago.
La way deep into the show and said it was a Monday and then said it was a Saturday and it wasn't, it was a Friday.
And I'm like, dude, it happens, man.
It kills your memory.
And it one thing I don't like, uh that I I wish I was better at, but also it just it's so hard as uh you can have a cool moment or experience or have cool conversation with a fan you know at a place.
And then the next time you see them, it's they're devastated that you don't remember. you know what?
And it's like, I'm so sorry.
And they're like, no, we talked about like my dead mom or so, you know what I mean?
Something really sad.
And like, you don't remember.
And it's just, it's, it's hard to remember when you're just gone.
And I have a friend.
I have a friend who's hack for that is whenever he meets anybody.
This is a bit of a cheap trick, but whenever he meets anybody he says have we met before?
And if you haven't, they go no but, and he's like I swear I must've got you mixed up for him to do it the other way.
Cause, for I guess if you're deeper into your touring career and you're like you know maybe 50 or 25 of the people you have met, they're like yeah.
Oh my God.
They go back home and they're like, Oh yeah, I totally remember this.
Yeah, I know it is a cheap.
But if you know like, if I did that and then somebody was like yeah, we talked about so-and-so, then I would remember.
Yes.
But it's just that like the face and the, yeah, I had a, so James, my business partner in eutonic, this, this thing, We both played the Apollo in London.
Three and a half thousand people.
We both sold it out separately.
Get that in here.
That'll fuel the rest of the day.
Sweet.
He played the same show as me, separate, a couple of years before.
And we were messaging about it the other day and we were talking about this like what's happening on tour.
And he was like dude.
I played the biggest show of my life, sold out three and a half thousand people in my home country.
He's like, I couldn't tell you anything about what happened.
I can't tell you anything.
I can kind of remember walking out and I've got all the photos.
But I remember my show through the lens of the photographer and the videographer.
Now,
It's like, I don't remember it from my own eyes.
And it's this really interesting paradox that I've never thought about before until starting to do this.
When you're in a flow state, which is what everybody's supposed to want to get into, you're really unconscious, right?
Like stuff's just happening.
You know, you're set, you've dialed it in, you're halfway through the tour.
Like everything's locked and you forget what you're doing and it's really enjoyable.
But in this weird way, you're not there.
You're not, you weren't there.
Yeah.
You weren't there for it.
Yeah.
Like it just happened.
Have you seen that movie soul?
No.
Is that, that's the Disney one.
Yeah.
And he's a piano player and he dies and he goes to like this purgatory thing.
Bits of it.
Yeah.
There's one, there's a, there's one little section of this, like in between heaven kind of thing that they go to.
And it's all these people doing like weird tasks.
And he's like, what is that?
And he, they're all like, they're in the zone.
So it's like, they're, you know, that's like their soul is like, and the place is called the zone.
And it's like a one guy is just a sign spinner on the street, you know, but one guy could be a guitar player or whatever it is, but it's, it's the flow state.
It's like their body is on earth, but like their soul, you know they're.
They're in that different, different world, like a different place.
Isn't that strange though, that the thing that you want to do most in the place that you want to get to as a performer is the point where you make the fewest memories?
Like you're not there. for it.
Yeah.
It's just, it's a complete paradox, dude.
It's just as well that we've got the moments you want to remember the most, or the or like, or those, but it's the but the the, the mindset you want to be in is the same as as that.
That's insane.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The best moments of your career are the ones that you remember the least.
Isn't that wild?
It sucks, dude.
That's crazy.
Well, I mean fortunately, I was going to say you live with like a million cameras around you which uh, which helps.
But yeah, there's a bit of a.
There's a bit of a uh melancholy.
I, even I've had that right.
Uh, looking back and I go, was I there?
And then there's a bit of guilt.
I'm like, should I, I should have been more present.
Yeah.
Maybe I should have been more present.
You go, well, what's your job?
Is your job to be there and to be present?
Or is your job to put on a good show for the fucking three and a half thousand people that have paid to come and see you?
Right.
Um, yeah.
And do your job, be a professional.
Yep.
It's a strange one, dude.
It's a battle.
It's a battle, man.
I just, yeah, I feel like the, I don't know.
I approach a lot of, especially my singing career, because of how it came together, like very randomly, that I just I don't put a lot of pressure on myself, um to uh, I don't know.
I just approach it very lightly.
And I'm just like, dude, I'm so lucky to be here that just, I don't know.
I just approach everything that comes with that.
Just lightly and everything is you.
I used to be very proud and all that, but i just try to think, you know, this is none of this is a big deal and but not, and i just mean like um, you know, i don't know.
I've always just thought like man, these people you're playing for are just people and you were just a dude and you still are, but like you got lucky with your, your record deal and your artist career and never really planned on doing that.
So why not just enjoy it and and try not to beat yourself up?
But there's definitely times where i you know like i'll do something And then be like did I soak in enough of that?
Like there's a, it's funny.
There's a festival in Michigan.
Brian O'Connell, I hope you watch this because you're, you need to hear this.
It was called faster horses, a live nation festival.
And it was by far, I played it twice and it was the greatest crowd I've ever played for.
And they canceled it.
And the last time I played it, I remembered it and it was great, but I just always assumed that we would be back.
And it was like I'm talking like nothing will ever ever ever ever, ever beat it, unless we went back there.
Like it just will not happen.
And then they canceled it probably forever.
And it just like, that sucks.
And it's like, that's a moment where I beat myself up.
Cause I was like, man, we just got off stage and just had a few beers and went to bed.
Like You know, like we should have celebrated that more or enjoyed that moment a lot more, done something because, had we known it was going to be canceled, you know, we would have really soaked that moment in.
Dude, that's life.
Yeah.
That's life.
Yeah.
Right?
Yep.
You don't know the last time that you're going to bounce your daughter on your knee.
Oh, don't you?
Yeah, dude.
I can't even think about it.
You don't know the last time that you're going to hug your grandmother.
You don't know the last time that you're going to get to play a live show.
You don't know the last time that you're going to get to be with that bus driver and uh, the assumption that we always have more is why we don't realize that stuff is slipping away from us during the time.
Um, but on the flip side, i think being gentle with yourself, of you don't know what the future holds yep, you don't know what's going to happen next.
Everybody experiences that.
The exact same.
I think, too right yeah yeah, i should have been more present, i should have remembered it more, i should have treated it with more divinity or sacredness, or care and attention and uh, It's only in retrospect.
I should have, as soon as you say, I should, it's like, yeah, but you didn't, and you didn't know.
And there's nothing you can do about it.
And if you could have done, you'd have gone and said to the bus driver let's just put whatever like the I should, I should, I should.
Yeah.
Ladies and gentlemen, Hardy.
I appreciate the fuck.
Thank you so much, man.
It was a great, great conversation.
This is ruled.
Uh, what's next?
Where are you on tour?
What's coming up?
Yeah.
Country country tour starts in Canada in February.
Apparently that's the time to go.
Cause they're bored to death.
Country country tour Canada in February.
Um, I've got the Hardy fund.
Uh, best way to do it is just Google the Hardy fund.
Um, and, uh, you can donate to that.
It's my, my wife and I's charity that we're really excited about.
Just, um, yeah.
Country country and country, country, country, the album and the deluxe album.
And, uh, that's it.
Fuck.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Got some other stuff that I can't talk about yet but excited, super excited about.
But uh yeah, I'm excited.
Appreciate you, man.
Thank you so much.
