#1046 - Russ - Can Ambitious People Ever Have Balance?｜Modern Wisdom

You were talking about work-life balance and your inability to have it.

Yeah.

Man, I mean, balance is just, it's a luxury now.

It's a privilege.

You can't have it on the way up.

It just has to be full 100% commitment to the grind.

So now I'm trying to have more balance, but the guilt is there, you know, still.

Like, it's just that PTSD.

Mm-hmm of like i shouldn't be relaxing right now.

You know it's a difficult question to work out.

You know almost everybody's on the come up but by design very few people make it or have made it right.

There's way more people that want to be there than are there, and that means, first off, that it's a sort of an icky situation, because the total addressable market for people who need to learn how to put their take their foot off the gas is basically zero and the total addressable market for people that could do with working harder to achieve their dreams is still pretty high.

But um, a good question to ask yourself is okay, let's say that you achieve the things that you want to achieve.

You get to where you're supposed to get to.

Yeah.

Well then, then what do you do?

That has been beating my ass for like two years.

That question, because here's kind of like how I thought about it is, the thing I'm scared of now is not having a horizon, you know.

Because in the past, my present self was not my future self.

There was a huge gap between who I was and who I wanted to become.

And that gap, the distance is what birthed the hunger and the velocity, you know?

And now my present self is my past future self.

Like the gap has collapsed.

So the hunger has nowhere like obvious to point.

And, It's scary because, you know, it's not really a fear of complacency.

It's a fear of like directional ambiguity.

You know what I mean?

And you know, kind of to touch on what you said, where the market for people trying to get here versus people who are here, it's obviously huge, but a huge difference.

But the engine that was driving me and I think drives most people at the beginning is here's this person that I want to become, that I can imagine.

And that engine works until you arrive.

And most people never arrive.

So they never have to confront this, but like high achievers have to confront it.

And it's just honest, you know?

And so now it's trying to figure out, like not necessarily the new dream, but sort of like relocalizing the hunger, trying to find a new domain for it.

I think that's why, to be honest, therapy has been so activating for me and interesting, because the ambition like moved houses to this internal landscape where i can like attack the internal world.

Because at the beginning the external stuff is such a motivator career status metrics validation, yeah all that but then you get it and you're like well, i can't keep tricking my brain into thinking that i want another plaque or another 100 grand, you know what i mean, or whatever it is.

This internal world is so fascinating because it's untapped land.

It's new terrain.

Yeah, it's new.

But the issue with it is there's no finish line.

And there's no metrics of progress.

There's no metric of progress.

So it's real easy to just get lost in myself and end up just doing this endless self-monitoring rumination.

It's like, all right, hold on.

Well, you apply the same hypervigilance and obsession that you do to finding the perfect kick drum to working out your relationship with your parents.

Exactly.

And it's like, maybe you need to relax today, not attack this relationship.

Think about this.

So many people, I believe, have an obsession with personal development.

I certainly know that this is true for me, because it was an anesthetic against not liking who I was in the moment.

I was able to delay, I was able to put off pardon hiatus self-love, because I knew that tomorrow me was going to be better than today me.

So it didn't matter that I didn't love myself today because tomorrow I'll be better.

But tomorrow I might, well, I'm moving in the right direction.

I don't need to matter about where I am now.

Well, you know, I haven't reached this level of validation or this particular achievement that I've got.

And then when you do arrive, or get close to arriving, or you outstrip the non-goals that you didn't really have and you just think, like what the fuck am I doing here?

You're forced to confront a much more difficult question, which is i can no longer artificially inflate my uh the like, artificially add buoyancy to my own lack of self-love with tomorrow's promises.

Yeah, because i'm already so like out past where i thought i was going to get to.

Yeah, that i i, tomorrow.

All of this feels like a dream.

So um yeah, you end up in a very odd situation.

Uh, where you're, this is gold medalist syndrome.

It's the same, it's the.

It's a classic classic, classic situation that fame won't fix your self-worth, money won't make you happy.

You don't love that pretty girl, she's just hot and difficult to get like.

You should work less, you should see your parents more.

These lessons that everybody who has just become famous or wealthy or got the girl that they thought that they wanted all along, or has just lost a parent.

All of them proclaim these revelations with like the vigor of someone that's just gone through a religious awakening.

Why?

Well, either one of a couple of things.

First off, they are satisfied by this, but are lying to everybody else to try and pull the ladder up after them so that they don't continue going after it.

Secondly, they're ungrateful or they're unable to sort of accept the blessings that life and hard work has given them.

Or thirdly, what they're saying is fucking true.

And external accolades won't fill internal voids.

And the prevalence of it, the fact it's so ubiquitous and so many people arrive at this and then go oh fuck.

So many of my problems are still here.

All have the same epiphany.

Correct.

That's what I've been telling people.

It's like, what if we're right?

You consider that as an alternative.

Well, the reason that this is so painful.

I think it's very painful for the people that have gotten there.

And it's very uncomfortable for the people that haven't.

Because if the people at the end of the race tell people who are still running that the end of the race isn't actually worth it, that really fucking ruins the promise.

At least they got it.

And it's saying that it's not worth it.

I haven't even got it yet.

And you're trying to convince me that it's not worth it.

How fucking despondent is that?

Yeah.

Well, it comes out very out of touch and I wouldn't even say it's not worth it.

It's just not going to be what you think.

It's not going to fix the things that you think it's going to fix.

You know, it's going to address material issues, which is huge.

You know what I mean?

That's a huge struggle for most people, but it does not address any internal struggle you have.

And, in fact, now that the material struggle is taken care of, now all you have to do is focus on the internal struggle which fucks your head up, because you're like damn, you're telling me, none of this success fixes it.

No money.

None of it's going to do it.

Do you know what?

It would be a good analogy here.

It would be like talking about food and water.

There is no amount of food that you can eat unless it contains water that is going to keep you hydrated.

That's a great analogy.

It's, it's just, it's the wrong pathway.

You know, it's like trying to fuel your petrol car with electricity, like powerful.

And there's bits of the car that need electricity to run, but it's not the thing for that particular solution.

It's not the right fuel.

That's what's fucked.

My head up is having to reconcile with the fact that the old fuel doesn't work anymore and trying to find new fuel, you know, and it's tough because I was relying on that old fuel for so long.

And I think that fuel look like for you.

Insecurity mixed with conviction.

You know it was like it was.

I don't feel like I'm enough, but I believe I can become enough.

And it was a psychotic level of delusional confidence.

And the byproduct of that was discipline and consistency.

You know, it's like I believed with every fiber of my being that I was going to become this massive, successful artist.

I had already, like my success was decided by me in my head.

The outcome was non-negotiable.

It was inevitable.

And when something's inevitable, the choices aren't choices.

They're just, I was living in the process.

It was identity alignment.

It was, this is who I'm becoming.

And this is what that person does, which is why my discipline and consistency and work ethic that a lot of people clap for it never felt heroic or dramatic.

It just felt obvious. this is just what I'm, this is what this person does.

How long did you release a song a week for?

Two and a half years.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

So like 120, 140 songs.

Yeah.

And that was after doing 11 albums, which was like 110 songs, you know.

But again it just felt like it never felt like this huge undertaking.

It was just what you did.

Yeah.

If you tell somebody Hey, in six months you guaranteed are going to have the best physique of your life.

You're just going to do the things every day that are required to get to that point.

I'd already decided I was successful.

I've been thinking about consistency a lot.

Um, not too dissimilar to you.

I think the same work rate of a artist releasing a song a week would be podcast, doing three episodes a week.

And that's the place that we've been at for coming up on six years now.

Uh I, I've always sort of um, bowed at the altar of consistency.

I actually think that i'm stubborn.

I'm not convinced that i'm.

I think stubbornness and consistency net out to the same outcome, but they come from a little bit of a different place and uh, it's more.

Stubbornness is kind of you don't have any choice but to do it right right, uh.

So think about this um, you have obsession yeah, motivation and discipline, yeah.

So uh, motivation is I want to do this thing.

Discipline is I will make myself do this thing.

And obsession is I can't not do this thing.

Right.

But all of them kind of the, the outcome is the same.

The same.

Yes.

But where it's coming from, the fuel that you're using to push yourself forward is kind of different.

So true.

Yeah.

And at the beginning, like I said, I was running at this version of me.

That was so far away but it was such a clear visual was as if I was looking at the finish line and I could see myself waiting for me at the finish line.

So I knew I was going to get there, but now the version of me that I'm chasing feels like he's like right around the corner or behind you.

I've already outstripped him.

Yeah.

I've outstripped my own dreams.

I don't know where to run.

I'll run inwards and just attack all my you know issues internally, and I mean how many times?

How many times do you see someone do that?

But in a more obvious pivot, which is they were a super gregarious party guy Lothario, in their twenties, and then they turned to endurance racing in their thirties or their forties.

And now they do triathlons and Ironmans and stuff like that.

Yeah.

It's having to relocalize all that energy and hunger.

It's tough though.

Cause I mean, there's no way to slice it.

Like, I don't want the same things I wanted when I was 22.

Those same things can't drive me.

I can't be driven by the need to sell out a tour and go platinum, or make money and buy my mom a house.

It's like, I did all that.

So I can't keep tricking myself into and this is what I tried to do is like yeah, but I got to get another house.

Like I got to get another place.

Like that doesn't work.

It's not, it's not enough sustenance, you know?

Yeah.

It's an interesting one because habituation happens to everybody, you know, no matter how successful and unsuccessful you are, even if you're working a job that you fucking hate and it doesn't pay that much.

You got excited for the car that you were going to lease.

And then, when you got the car after a little while, you got bored of it and you need to get a slightly better one.

If you got a slightly worse one, you felt bad about yourself, but if you got a slightly better one, then it was satisfying for a while.

And then the same thing and the same thing and the same thing.

And I think there is an assumption that at some point you arrive and that that compulsion is relinquished from you.

You've like exorcised, you've expunged it.

This is what me and my best friend were just talking about.

We realized like it's cliche, but the race is the finish line.

That's like that getting there is the most fun to me.

That's been a blast.

That was the, I wish I saw how fruitful that part truly was.

Cause like you said, there's no arrival, you know, there's no, okay.

I'm, I'm done.

What?

Putting in work.

I'm done showing up.

I'm done, being motivated, being just no, it's.

It's really like all of a sudden, you did this journey and you became this version of yourself that you always wanted to become.

And I suppose that that's the arrival, but arriving is so much more fun.

Uh, It is so much more fun to be a little richer than you were yesterday than merely to be rich.

Alice Wellington, Roland.

It's so real.

I mean dude, Andrew Tate, fucking the philosopher, a Tate, uh said, said uh uh, having things isn't fun.

Getting things is fun.

A hundred percent.

And unfortunately, what this means is uh, it's that Luke Combs.

Uh, fucking Bellion song.

Uh, If the higher I climb is the further I fall, then why love anything at all?

Wow.

You know, last week I found out that this is the eighth biggest podcast in the world.

I'm the eighth biggest podcaster in the world as of last week's Spotify charts.

And it was fantastic.

And one of my friends, who is like the new business development manager for me, rang and was like dude, I'm so fucking happy for you, but you do know what this means next year.

And I was like, yep.

It means that we've got to be number eight or number seven or number six.

Or I'm a loser.

I'm going to fucking hate it.

Yeah, right.

But if I'd been 12th this year and didn't know where I charted, it wouldn't have mattered.

Right.

So there is a particular type of mindset that you have and learning to relinquish that, learning to be like just fuck it.

It's just nice.

Yeah.

It's just nice to have that.

Clap for yourself.

Yeah.

But the difference between...

And this is one of the great advantages that nobody ever realizes as it's happening.

When you're on the climb.

It is easier at the beginning, in the middle of your journey, within whatever it is, even if it's just mastery, even if it's internal mastery when you start your therapy journey.

Look at all of the low hanging fruit about.

I never realized that my parents did that.

And that was strange.

And I never realized I had that conversation with my sister that was formative.

And it made me think about the thing.

In the beginning of your journey.

The noob gains are real and all of this stuff's just.

You're accumulating it all the time, so progress comes relatively easily.

But as you get better at anything and this is unfortunately both true for internal and external metrics you start going to the gym.

You gain strength every session.

After 10 years of training, you gain strength every three months, every quarter.

It's harder to show up when that's happening.

There's less motivation.

Yeah.

And it means that pullbacks are more likely because you actually have something to lose.

A hundred percent.

Nothing to lose in the beginning.

Tell me about the therapy insights you didn't know that you forgot.

Right.

I didn't fucking know them.

How could I forget about them?

Whereas now, if you encounter some conversation with your girlfriend and you go fuck, there's that pattern again.

Yeah.

There's that.

I know about that pattern.

There's an obligation for me to act on it.

That means that I have not got, you know, and if I don't act on it, then I'm a piece of shit.

I've taken a step backward.

What was the point of all of the therapy?

Why therapy fucking point?

I shouldn't have even gone in there.

You know what I mean?

So that the higher I climb, the further I fall.

It's so true.

And I think you know I always like the analogy I use is video games and like creating a player and, you know, starting as a 50 overall.

Right.

And it's so fun and you gain attributes so quickly and get yourself up to a 75 and 85.

And, but then you get to a 98 overall.

It's like, it's just not that fun to play anymore.

And you just want to start a new career.

And so I think for me that's kind of why I've been like wanting to get into acting, because again it's almost like I'm trying to trick my brain into go climb a new mountain, even though I know what's at the top.

You know what I mean?

I've never heard anybody talk about that before.

I think that's so interesting that you already know that this is just a race in a different territory.

I know what it is.

It's the same race in a different territory.

It just gives me an opportunity to enjoy the climb again, though.

Because I'm like, I want to go climb a mountain because last time I wasn't there for the climb.

I was mentally at the summit the whole time.

I don't know if it's, I don't know how easy it is to be that dude.

Especially when you're thinking the sort of stuff that you do performing on stage to stadiums and arenas of people, and it's your music and they're your fans and they really resonate with you.

And then you get off and you've got to work out are we getting Chick-fil-A or Sweetgreen?

What time's the lobby call tomorrow?

Have we got?

Because the bus fuck dude, that bus, like actually the bed, is kind of a bit.

You know it's a little bit.

I liked the bus that we had last, but you're the norm, the normalcy of the worries that you have are always there.

And I think that that's why envy about anybody's life, especially what looks from the outside like a magnificent life.

Um, life is not made of peak experiences like that.

It's not made of days on stage and playing to arenas.

Life is an average Tuesday afternoon.

Yeah.

That's the majority of it.

Correct.

Life is made up of average Tuesday.

I've had to learn to look around As much as I can and tell myself this is enough, like this moment is enough because, to what you're saying Me sitting with my girl on the couch and our two dogs, That is the majority of the time.

It's not selling out a show.

You know, and I think part of me sometimes wants to Curate a life that is full of as many peak moments as possible, But I just know that that's not real.

You know, it's like because then I'll do that and I'm missing, like the thing I can really sink my teeth into, which is balance and normalcy and just hanging out with my family.

And all of a sudden you know you don't see your dad for a year and a half because you're like over here trying to chase this high of being on a stage or conquering something you know.

So it's tough, though, man.

Have you found, even when you've played your biggest shows, that watching the footage back or watching the vlogs and all the rest of it, do you have more enjoyment watching it back than you did doing it at the time?

Do you remember it now through the lens of the camera, not the lens of where you were?

Cause it looks like it's someone else's shit.

Yeah.

So I can appreciate someone else's success.

Very hard for me to appreciate my own.

And when it's happening in front of me.

A lot of times it's tough, it's really hard to be present for me.

It's very difficult.

I spent a lot of my life living outside of my body and living inside my head, you know?

And so what I used to do on stage was just, I'll just get drunk, you know, I'll turn my brain off.

That's how I would turn my brain off.

And it worked, you know what I mean?

But it's not sustainable.

And so now I do my shows sober and it's harder to be present because I'll be up there and a lot of times I'm in my head.

Yeah, me too.

You know like when you're drinking on stage you don't really notice nor care about anyone's facial expression, about what you just said, did whatever.

You're just having a blast.

When you're sober on stage and I'm singing a song, I can see you just like, what was that?

Did I fuck up?

Was this not cool?

You know, and it just boom.

In a room of 15,000 people, just one girl in the front row.

Yeah, it's so true, bro.

I finished off my tour last week.

So I did Salt Lake, Denver, Vancouver.

Nice.

Which was lovely.

It was a really cool way to finish it up.

We'd started in New York a couple of months ago, and then we rounded it out there.

And the final show that I did, the um park hands on the curtain behind me brighter than I was used to, which meant that the first four rows were illuminated and they only had one stage light.

Look at how fucking specifically like opulent and bourgeois this sounds.

But it meant that the first four rows and would just I could see people's eyes.

I could see the facial expressions.

I can see if somebody needed to go to the bathroom, I could see everything like this.

Fucking sucks.

It blows so much.

Put another stage light on me.

I'll darken them down.

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I saw you give a break in the middle of one of your performances and said I just want to say every parent is going to fuck their kids up a little bit, man.

You get to an age where you can't keep blaming them.

Yeah.

What's that mean to you?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think.

Naturally, when you start therapy you start descending into the root of a lot of your patterns.

And it obviously starts with childhood.

And the natural inclination is to point the finger and be like, why would you?

But the reality is they didn't have the tools.

I look back and I'm like, my dad was probably my age when he had me.

You know what I mean?

And I'm like I wouldn't be this return.

Yeah, it's like what?

There's no shot that i would do well.

I would do well now compared to what i would do five years ago.

But yeah, i just had to get to a place of understanding that i love my parents and there's also just things that they didn't mean to pass on to me, and behaviors and you know um Yeah, just habits that they didn't mean to pass on, but they did.

And I got to unlearn them.

And everyone's parents are going to unknowingly pass on unhealthy shit.

But it's like at a certain age, I have to father myself.

Can I read you an essay?

Please.

So I wrote this a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah.

The parental attribution error.

We love blaming our parents.

Practically a rite of passage in modern psychology.

But there's a double standard buried in the trend.

We attribute what's broken in us to our upbringing while claiming what's strong in us is ours alone.

Call it the parental attribution error, like the fundamental attribution error, where we blame others' actions on their character but excuse our own by pointing to circumstance.

Like, I cut that guy off in traffic because I'm late.

He cut me off because he's a dick.

It's a skewed way of assigning credit and blame.

We externalize the bad and internalize the good.

We're quick to blame and slow to credit.

You say you're anxiously attached because no one held you when you needed it.

But isn't your ability to be alone in your emotions and to endure discomfort quietly also forged in the same crucible?

You blame your parents for pushing you too hard in school, convinced it made you perfectionistic and neurotic.

But when was the last time you acknowledged that same pressure gave you ambition, discipline and drive?

You point to a childhood where mistakes weren't tolerated as the reason you fear failure.

But what about your meticulousness, your standards, your refusal to phone it in?

You complain that no one ever asked you what you wanted growing up.

But could that also be why you're so tuned in to what everyone else needs?

You say your low self-worth comes from your never being praised.

But isn't that the same fuel that makes you outwork everyone around you?

You trace your conflict avoidance back to all the shouting at home.

But isn't that also where your talent for de-escalation and an emotional radar came from?

You chalk up your hyper-independence to not being able to trust anyone.

But isn't that also what made you capable, adaptable and calm under pressure?

You say you're emotionally guarded because no one took your feelings seriously.

But isn't that also why you're steady when the people around you fall apart?

You've labeled yourself a people pleaser because you had to keep the peace at home, but maybe that's also where your social fluency and emotional intelligence were born.

You blame your poor boundaries on parents who didn't respect yours, but isn't that also why you're so careful to not cross anyone else's?

You say your fear of being a burden comes from being treated like one, but isn't that the same fear that now makes you reliable, disciplined and impossible to disappoint?

You attribute your sensitivity to criticism to all of the judgment you grew up with.

But isn't that also what makes you thoughtful, receptive and serious about getting better?

You say your nervous system never relaxes because your home was unpredictable.

But isn't that also why you're perceptive, quick-thinking and never caught off guard?

The traits you're most ashamed of are often just the dark side of something light.

Your sharp edges didn't appear out of nowhere.

They're often the byproduct of something useful a strength turned up too high or a gift handled without guidance.

Think about a sword, powerful, precise, designed to cut through resistance.

But if it's double-edged, and most strengths are, then sometimes it nicks you on the backswing.

That doesn't mean that you throw the sword away.

It means that you learn how to hold it properly.

Because most traits worth having come with risk.

The truth is messier than a single cause.

Every trait is entangled.

Wounds and gifts often share a root.

The self-reliance you're proud of may come from the same childhood where you couldn't rely on anyone.

The confidence you carry may have started as a defense over ever feeling small or dismissed again.

Even your drive to succeed may be rooted in the fear of not being good enough.

But this perspective requires maturity.

It's simpler to cast yourself as the victim of bad parenting than to reckon with a complicated inheritance.

It's easier to say they hurt me than to admit they shaped me in ways I'm still figuring out.

The cultural narrative rewards blaming your parents more than it does understanding them.

Therapy turns them into victims and villains.

Instagram makes them punchlines.

But how often do you thank them in the same breath that you critique them?

None of this excuses abuse, neglect, or dysfunction, but it does ask for honesty.

And you're going to draw a straight line from your childhood to your flaws.

You should also draw that same lineage to your strengths.

If you can't let your parents take credit for what's right with you, maybe you shouldn't be so quick to make them the villains for what's wrong.

Incredible.

Yes.

You know, it's because I've thought about that a lot.

First of all, that was incredible.

Thank you.

Yeah.

If that doesn't go viral, I don't know what.

But I've thought about that a lot.

And the answer I've come to with talking to certain people is that maybe there was another way to still give you those traits.

You know what I mean?

Without the shortcoming.

Without, exactly.

And someone like myself.

I was able to use all those negative things as fuel and still achieve in spite of, because of whatever.

But that's just because of how I'm wired.

Somebody else who's wired differently would be just buried underneath some of that shit.

You know what I mean?

Under some of the heavy criticism or whatever the negative traits are.

So it's also, it sounds good if you succeed.

It doesn't sound good if you don't succeed, you know?

Because you've alchemized it.

Right.

Which takes a special person.

So yeah, for me it's just.

The main point I think again is that maybe there was another way for me to develop those traits.

Maybe it didn't have to come through this like pain and fuckery, you know.

Yeah.

But I agree in, in, in essence that, you know, this is what my dad always tells me.

He's like, yeah, but you turned out.

All right.

I'm like, that's cause I'm fucking awesome.

But maybe it didn't need to go that way.

You know, I think we asking the question uh, interesting difference between um uh, something being a fluke chance uh, and something being sort of written in the stars.

So if you were to run the universe back a thousand times, how many times does this happen to you?

Right.

And I think that's an interesting question to ask yourself.

Like, um, you could think about convergence, right?

This thing was kind of, it was always meant to be or coincidence.

This thing wasn't.

So is it coincidence or is it convergence?

And I think that's a cool question to ask, because what you realize is that the inheritance you've got, in terms of your traits, might actually be pretty fucking rare for you.

That you shouldn't be this person really.

Oh, you know, not just that you're a rare person, but of the all of the persons you could have been.

Yeah, this is a rare version yeah yeah, you know there are way more versions of you, and maybe there's not.

Maybe most of the versions of you result in you being a multi-platinum.

That's what i have been recording yeah well yeah, it's very um, The self-authoring nature of that it makes you feel like you are the rider on the top of the elephant that's actually controlled it, as opposed to this fucking elephant was going where it wanted and I just thought I was guiding it along the way.

Isn't that interesting?

That concept is what I named my deluxe album after, The Elephant and the Rider.

It's so interesting to me.

You swear you're in control, but that elephant, once it decides where it wants to go, it's going yeah, yeah.

I've heard you talk about people dismissing internal struggle.

Well, people only validate struggles that they understand.

Yeah uh, there's a line from oliver berkman that says just because someone carries it well doesn't mean the weight isn't heavy.

Yeah, i think it's so great god yeah, yeah.

And i think with um, I think with men especially you know the whole cliche like we've been taught to hide it and to carry it alone.

And that's what makes you be a man is carrying all your shit and keeping it under wraps, you know?

Um, and I also like there is truth and validity to the fact that material struggle is vital.

You know, having food, water and shelter is necessary, but there are so many internal struggles that are harder to see, and it doesn't mean that they're not real, you know.

And I think I think everyone is just so quick to get into this.

Uh like struggle, competition with people, like yeah, but I had to go through this, but there's always going to be someone who can say that's cute.

I had to go through this.

It doesn't mean that your shit isn't real.

It didn't have, it doesn't mean it didn't have an impact. didn't affect you um yeah i don't it's it's so uh divisive to me well it's an interesting one because and this speaks to your age and stage of development two things can be true at once many people who don't deserve the term victim use it as a way to gain leverage and status and accolade and also lots of people are denying just how fucking hard their life was yeah um so rogan's got this idea where he says the worst thing that's ever happened to you is the worst thing that's ever happened to you so if if the worst day of your life is somebody misgendering you in a starbucks then that's a pretty big deal but if the worst day of your life is you running into battle at the fucking battle of the psalm that is also and everything then becomes kind of relative to that and it's also there's a recency bias yeah there's a well life's been pretty good recently and you begin to get a bit of sort of like you know velvet uh nightgown syndrome where you think well stuff doesn't really need to be that and then you get hit by something and you realize me 10 years ago would have dealt with this more differently and now me now feels like i'm more fragile we're not static and one person's ability or lack of to deal with discomfort needs to be sort of scrutinized carefully you go I don't think that that's that big of a deal and there's a very easy way to call that out but also going dude that you need to accept when you've been kicked in the dick and when it's really really hurt yeah I think lately I've just been trying to expand my capacity to handle bullshit you know how do you do that God, I wish I fucking knew really actionable advice.

For me, I think it's just interrupting patterns, catching them.

When I start to spiral and start to catastrophize certain things, just at least step one, being aware that I do that.

Step two is now interrupting it and being like, I'm okay.

My world is okay.

It's not a fucking tragedy anymore.

Um, but it's tough, you know, and I think that was a lot of my resistance with wanting more success was.

Well, more success means getting hit more.

And I've been hit before by my last version of success.

I don't want to be hit again, but then I don't want less success because then I'm stagnant.

Yeah.

Um, so the only answer is you need to increase your capacity to handle shit, you know, to juggle.

Me and my therapist always talk about is grief and gratitude simultaneously.

You know and that's been um, that's been challenging man, because I could have swore, once you get success, it's just all things that you're supposed to be grateful for.

There is no more grief, just all gratitude.

It's all function.

I used to always like look around.

And be like, this is fucked up and they fucked that launch up and this just happened, whatever.

And just feel like I had some broken version of success.

Like surely there's something wrong with the version of success that I bought.

I need to trade this back in.

Like this is malfunction.

This is not right.

But it's like, no, man, there is always going to be some bullshit and some good shit going on.

And it's just the ability to hold both and not just ignore the bullshit, acknowledge it but not ignore the gratitude and not think that it's just supposed to only be that.

Well, that's a painful realization for everybody that there will be no point when you have no problems in life.

Yeah.

What did you think?

That one day you were going to have no more problems like getting to a level in a video game and there being no enemies left.

That's not the way that life works.

There will never be a time when you have no problems.

Right, and unfortunately that's not what they sell you though.

Yeah, oh no no, reach the escape velocity, dude out in space.

They can't hear you scream and they definitely can't hear your fucking problems.

Yeah yeah, you know one of those balance boards.

It's like a skateboard deck and it's got a cylinder underneath it and people use it for working on their balance.

Yeah, i think about life a lot of the time, kind of like that.

Even when you're, it looks really flat and i'm looking at you and you're almost perfectly still yeah, you're making these little micro adjustments at all times, and then sometimes you go whoa on one side or the other and i just the more, the more that i experience life, the more that i think it works like that.

Yeah, that there is no point where you reach stasis.

There are times when you are more steady and more flat and there are times where you're more extreme, and sometimes you meant to because you're playing around, and sometimes you were forced to because there's a big fucking gust of wind.

Yeah um, but there's no point where you're not fixing those micro adjustments, fixing things and making my micro adjustments.

Yeah.

You'll never be able to fully take your eyes off the ball.

And I think that was, it still is a big hurdle of mine is overreacting and catastrophizing the small little, like you know, adjustments that need to be made.

And it's because it it feels like It used to feel like a threat against who I was and what I built.

Did I build something unstable?

Did I build something not that great?

Did I build something wrong?

Am I wrong?

Am I fucked up?

Well what that reinforces if you don't ever hear this, and it's why it's so wonderful to hear the inner workings of somebody's mind.

It helps people to realize oh, this isn't a personal curse on me.

This isn't because I did it wrong.

This is just the way life always is for me.

Everybody else has arrived.

Everybody else is going to have it in such an easy, gentle way.

They're whole.

They don't have problems.

No, no, no.

This is endemic.

This is a feature.

It's not a bug.

And everybody else feels this too.

They just don't talk about it.

This is why I envy bands.

I envy bands because you guys all go through the same shit together.

That's so incredible to me.

Like i think about the beatles, i'm like you all got famous at the exact same time like, so you always had each other to talk to.

But when you're just an artist, everything you're experiencing feels like it's happening in a vacuum and you're sure that nobody else is having this experience.

Well, what they, even if they say they are having your experience, you can excuse it away because well, the way that they play, or the music there, the genre, the fan group that well you know, their instagram game is like totally, they actually came up on the.

There's a way to excuse it.

But yeah, you're right, you have a.

It's a wonderful, a wonderful split test.

When you're in a band yeah, if you're one of four or six or whatever members of a band, you go.

Well, everybody else is experiencing the exact same thing.

Yeah, maybe they play a different instrument, but we're all, and so the similarities we can assume are because of the situation, and the differences we can assume are just mine.

Yeah right, because i, my constitution, is different to theirs, and it helps you to run a pretty good experiment on why you feel the way you do.

Yeah, and i think that was comforting on the come up, because me and my friends were all at the same place.

You know what I mean?

So there was a bit of synergy there psychologically and there was community inherently.

And then when one of you kind of ascends to this crazy level, it's kind of like well, now I know nobody who gets this and you expect me to what go like make friends as an adult.

That's impossible.

So it's, it's just fucked.

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Talk to me about why it's okay to take your life seriously.

Um, Because I think people downplay their own passion and zeal for wanting to make a dream come true out of fear of embarrassment, fear of coming off cringy, because you really want that.

It's that whole like I'm going to downplay what I want, so that if I don't get it I can just say I didn't even really want it anyways.

You do want it and that's okay.

That's why I love like Timothee Chalamet coming out and saying, I want to be great.

I'm in pursuit of greatness.

That's awesome.

All this fake modesty, like too cool shit.

I fucking hate.

I think it's fake.

And I think that that's just, it's posturing, it's image management.

You're trying to be relatable.

It's not real though.

Like I love hearing people claim that I'm trying to be, The biggest artist in the world.

I want to be the best.

I think I'm the best.

I love that.

Because we all have something we desperately want.

And I think it's okay for you to be serious about getting that.

I think that there's times where you shouldn't take yourself and certain things too serious.

But it's okay to take your life serious.

This is your life.

You're not going to take this serious?

If not this, then what?

It's strange to me, very strange.

I think seriousness gets a bad rap.

Yeah, because it's seen as a stern.

Uh, not fun.

Having too rigid, too contrived um, and yeah, totally effortless achievement uh, from the outside doesn't trigger many of the defense mechanisms.

Um because, oh my god, he must just be so talented, You know, like how amazing.

And he's not sort of shoving it in our face, and he didn't say what he was going to do before and so on and so forth after.

But I think taking things seriously and the bravery to take something seriously is like a wonderful skill to develop.

Earnestness as well.

Yeah.

Think about seriousness in your idea, I think, is to do with saying what you want.

Yeah frankly, and showing the level of effort and commitment that you're prepared to put in to go and get it might be a good way to look at it.

But earnestness would be the same, but directed inwardly toward emotions.

So earnestness would be the bravery to take your emotions seriously.

And I like earnest people.

I think your point is basically that detachment is self-protection.

Yeah, 100%.

By keeping things at a distance.

Yeah.

I don't really connect myself.

It's the person who's never fully committed in a relationship.

Yeah.

Because well, if they reject me, they're not rejecting me, because I kept this little bit of me for me.

Yeah.

They didn't, you know, they didn't get to see all of me.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Because if I'd really wanted them, if I'd really tried.

I would have.

Then I would have had them.

But I didn't.

I held this little bit back.

Yeah.

So you...

You always come out on top.

Yeah.

You avoid failure publicly by guaranteeing your failure privately.

Wow.

Yeah.

It's a defense mechanism against embarrassment, you know?

And yeah, it's, it's just okay to want something in your life and want to take it serious.

You know, it just is.

And I think it's kind of interesting.

I always like related back to watching certain anime and certain characters who didn't have the innate skill they were fucking annoying they had to like really bust their ass to like get good and get their powers and shit and they were annoying to me they were not as cool as the character who was just nonchalant and just like had the shit yep yep and i think as dudes we all look at that guy like he's fucking awesome he's not even trying he's badass and we look at the main character who like doesn't have the skills yet has to work as like annoying but to me that's just because it's confronting a lot of times you know there's a lot of times when I see somebody busting their ass and um saying like this is the journey I'm about to go on this is what I want this is what I'm willing to do this is what I'm going after I'm not there yet but I believe I can get there I see how people react to that and I just think it's confronting because it's a mirror for most people it's It's asking you, are you willing to do the work that this person's willing to do?

What are you doing with your life?

But it also suggests that success is more in reach than you might think.

That's the part that fucks people up.

Yeah.

Because well actually, it's not because of blasé, innate talent.

That's this mystical ephemeral, difficult to replicate thing.

Yeah.

Oh, he just worked hard and... Yeah.

Oh, fuck.

That means...

All I needed to do was work hard.

And therefore, the fact that I'm not where they are.

Might be my fault.

Because I didn't try.

You know what's easier to say?

I think he just sold his soul.

I think that's like, it's got to be what it is.

It's so much easier to just do that instead of the truth.

The truth is far less sexy.

Correct.

I mean, that is increasingly the direction of this podcast going in.

Very unsexy truths, unfortunately.

Yeah, over and over um, and you know some of the seductive mirages that i was facing when i was a younger man and now that i'm a young but slightly less younger man, a lot of i've got to them and realized it wasn't some oasis, it was just like this sort of vision thing and one of those is earnestness and seriousness and taking things seriously.

Yeah and um, i fucking hate, i hate ironic speech so much.

I think it fucking blows this sort of cynical side eye.

I never plant my position in the ground.

I never say like hey, you went too far, like you're not supposed to say that it's always lol, but actually you're the it's like.

No, don't say lol, say fuck you, because that's how you felt.

Yeah, but because you don't want to say to somebody that you actually hold a position, that you can be hurt by something or that you care about something.

As soon as you say that you care about something, that's a, a flag that's planted in the ground and that gives a territory that other people can try to attack.

Yeah.

Whereas if you're, I didn't really care about her all that much.

It wasn't really that important to me.

I didn't want the business to go that way.

I like, I'm not that, you know, like I'm just doing comedy on the side.

Like it's just like, you know, whatever, whatever.

Um, I had another, uh, essay recently procrastination is often about fear.

We like to pretend procrastination is a time management problem, but regularly it isn't.

It's often a self-protection strategy wearing a Fitbit.

When we delay doing the thing that we know we should do, we're sometimes not wrestling with our schedule, we're wrestling with our self-worth.

The logic goes like this.

If I try and fail, everyone will see.

So if I never try at all, the failure is private, deniable, and safe.

This is the psychological sleight of hand at the heart of much procrastination.

It feels like avoidance but functions like armor.

You convince yourself the task is scary or the conditions aren't perfect or you need to feel ready first, but really you're just terrified that doing your best might not be good enough.

So you don't do anything.

Yeah.

I think that's everyone.

I think you nailed it too with.

You know, it's just you get to fail privately and that's and you can handle that, you know.

But I just I have a lot of respect for people who publicly go after shit.

And I think deep down, It's an attractive trait.

That's why a lot of times those people attract a lot of fans and a lot because we all know, as society,

Ambition and earnestness is attractive, because we know it's a really tough thing to have and it's no surprise that it's also polarizing.

You know, with with that, people need feel the need to like temper their ambition and their earnestness though, because if you're too much, then in the uk you would be called a kino, as in keen keen, like you're too keen, you're overly enthusiastic.

Yeah um, it would be cringe.

Yeah right, like this person who believes this thing and Yeah, maybe he got there or whatever, but he sort of loves it too much or whatever.

And it's strange because some people seem to be able to play it off with sort of an artistic likable quality.

But some other people, I don't know what it is.

They're just the way that they deliver something similar.

The obsession sort of leaks out of them in a less aesthetic shape.

I think you know what I've noticed and I'm guilty of this for sure in the past.

Sometimes it comes off like you're trying to prove it to yourself.

Yeah, that's interesting.

You know what I mean?

It's the guy at the party who introduces himself as saying just sold a business for 1 billion, as opposed to just it coming out naturally in the course of the conversation.

And people can feel the intention, you know?

It's like, this feels like you're trying to prove to yourself.

Yeah.

But I do think that there's just an issue with society wanting to control and own the key to other people's confidence.

Oh, that's great.

Like, no, no, no.

We will let you know when you're allowed to feel confident about yourself.

Because again kind of what you said earlier they have to believe that because it reaffirms the hierarchy in their head that We're in control.

Confidence is something given by us to you.

As opposed to the truth, which is, no, no, no, no.

I give myself confidence.

I own my confidence.

This is a good one.

So this woman went on a pod recently.

I'm going to play this clip for you.

This woman went on a pod recently and gave a really wonderful insight about the relationship of...

How much reputation people think that you deserve.

People have an assumption of the level of celebration you deserve.

Interesting.

Right?

Like how good you are and how much reputation you deserve.

How do people decide that?

Let's get to that because you want to try to engineer it.

Yep.

If you're above that, people think you're overrated and they want to bring you down and they don't like you.

If they perceive that you're below that, then you're underrated.

Like underrated is a compliment.

Why is it a good thing to be poorly rated?

In my mind, it's sort of like you fumbled.

Like, what do you mean you're not well rated?

Like, go fix it.

It's an interesting point.

But underrated is a compliment.

Overrated is an insult.

You would think that being highly rated is good, but overrated is not.

So people want to fill that delta.

If they think you're underrated, they'll try to bring you up.

So this is like what people we'll get to this too, but this is what people have been saying about Google Gemini.

It's underrated.

It's like it's high status to say, yeah, it's a compliment, but it's a compliment.

But it's also like, seen as insightful and valuable and useful, to point out that Google Gemini is good.

That's true.

Yes.

People feel good when they make that point.

Yeah.

They're like, I'm pointing this out.

So I'm writing some kind of wrong in the universe.

I'm feeling that.

I guess people also feel good about themselves when they call it something overrated.

People just feel good about identifying the discrepancy.

We're all kind of reputational Karens.

We feel off when something isn't where it should be.

And that's why all these phrases exist.

So cool.

So real though.

That's why I'm of the opposite mind.

I like seeing the Chiefs win the Super Bowl.

I want them to win the Super Bowl every year.

I want the Chiefs to win the Super Bowl every year.

I like when Taylor Swift drops an album and it goes number one and people say well, she couldn't just let that girl go.

No, beat me.

I love shit like that.

I don't even – I have no favorite NFL team.

When my brother was like, who do you want to win the Super Bowl this year?

I'm like, the Chiefs.

I just want to see dominance.

You know what I mean?

Because I hate all this like, let someone else win.

It's like, you're not even that great.

Prove it.

You know what I mean?

I love shit like that.

But that, I mean, again, that's just like society is just, in my opinion, bitch made.

It's just a bunch of like weak-minded –

People who don't want to face the reality that they themselves lack the quality and the fuel that this person used to become great.

Well, that's why I think it's called the bigotry of small differences or the narcissism of small differences, that the closer you are to somebody, the more rivalrous you feel your relationship to them.

If it's someone who grew up in a different country or a very different sort of upbringing or from a different family, like yeah, you might not rate their success, but it doesn't have the same sort of visceral status rivalry.

That you would expect.

But if it's the person who grew up down the street from you and you basically had the same opportunities, that really hurts.

Yeah.

It's another reason why I've chosen a profession, an industry that is very easy to criticize, because everybody does this over the dinner table.

Right.

I have not tried to put together a track.

I've not tried to open up fucking Ableton or Pro Tools or whatever the fuck and make a song.

Therefore, when I see what you do, I can say that I do or don't like it, but it's so removed from the skill set that I have.

But the closer that you get the fact that I haven't had to put in 10 20, 30 years on logic or whatever to work out how to fucking make this thing.

Uh, anybody can do a podcast.

How many times have someone been over dinner and said bro, we should have recorded that.

That was like that was such a good, that was better than like fucking joe rogan, like we should put that.

We should have put that on the internet.

Maybe we should start a podcast, like every white guy.

Yeah, and The fact that people feel close.

It's the same reason that everybody has an insight about how Nike should be doing their social media.

Oh, I didn't like that social media post.

They shouldn't be using AI.

Because everybody's got a social media profile.

So everybody has some.

Everybody's an expert.

But not everybody files the fucking P&L tax return at the end of year for their company.

Right.

Well, I mean, I would have done it differently.

You don't know how the spreadsheet works.

You don't have to do a V luck up or any of this stuff.

So you have more of an opinion and you can be more triggered and push back more when something that somebody else does.

It feels like you're a part of the industry in a roundabout way.

And the more walled off, the further away that particular industry is elon, elon.

You can laugh at the fact that a rocket bursts into flames if it doesn't work right, but you don't know how it happened.

I would have done it differently.

No, of course not.

But if you listen to a podcast that goes bad, you have an opinion, right.

Well, you have an opinion about that why?

Because you think that you oh if i'd been there, And then maybe some people could play football.

So they'll think well, that play is just stupid.

Why did they call that play?

That play is fucking dumb.

And the further and further away that you get.

If you're some microbiologist that's just come up with something, you go.

It was good or bad.

The resolution with which your criticism or compliments can be deployed lowered, the more difficult the task is basically and the further your skill set is away from it.

I think because brilliance is boring and it's subtle.

I was watching this documentary on Pixar and the guy was saying the trees in the background, the animation, it's so perfect that you don't notice it.

But if that tree was drawn fucked up, you would notice it.

Same thing with soccer players, basketball, like the music I make, whatever.

There's certain decisions that are getting made that are the culmination of of so many hours in a high level of taste or intelligence whatever not just in my field in all these different fields that the average person doesn't recognize them.

They only recognize the fuck up.

But it's like you don't recognize the brilliance when, you don't recognize when it's going well, because you don't know what goes into this.

And you think that your volume of commentary replaces your lack of credentials.

You don't know what's going on.

Well, one of the problems as well is that people bind together over criticism way more than over compliments you know misery loves company yeah yeah yeah and it's to me you give yourself an excuse if you reject the truth which is there's a lot of people kind of what you're saying like similar opportunities who just worked harder they worked harder or they just were naturally better than you at this thing they develop their skills or whatever it is and so the truth is that you didn't maximize your opportunities and that sucks to hear and what's easier to do is reject their journey dismiss it with some rumor or some nonsense because the truth is that you could have been here too but you fucked up take it up with your mirror this has got nothing to do with me you know In other news, you've probably heard me talk about Element before, and that's because I am frankly dependent on it.

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It's a strange challenge that people have when it comes to... Do I...

Do I want to criticize this thing because I genuinely have an issue with it?

Don't criticize this thing because it's triggered in me something that I feel uncomfortable about.

Yeah.

And um, the idea that being a black sheep is still being a sheep, and just because you're against something doesn't mean that you're in the minority.

It doesn't mean it's a more sophisticated position.

Yeah.

You don't really like anything.

You regularly dislike most things.

What a sophisticated position to hold.

Congratulations, dude.

You must have such refined taste.

I was just talking about this, man.

This whole community of people who hate anything that's popular because it's popular.

Not because they actually don't like it.

They just don't like it because it's popular.

Whether it's an artist, whether it's shoes or whatever it's like sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes things are popular because they're good.

And sometimes things are not popular because they're not good.

Not all the time, but sometimes.

And it just it's people who who feel like they, they get to have some sort of autonomy and some sort of like leverage over the rest of society.

Like you guys like that.

That's the underrated overrated thing again.

Right.

Yeah.

Uh, Yeah, it is funny.

There's sort of two camps of people.

There's one who are creators that are underground.

Oh, dude, you know, it's just my work's so sophisticated.

No one gets it.

Yeah, they just don't get it.

It's like, oh, maybe it's just not that good.

No kidding.

But just because something is big doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

But on average, it typically is.

Like people vote with their feet and there's a lot of competition out there.

A lot of competition.

Do you think it's got to be that?

Do you think Luke Combs has got to be that big if he can't do country well?

Right.

No, obviously not.

I have a good friend who said something a long time ago at the beginning of, like my journey and I'm sure we were like hating on some artists or something.

And he was like, you know what?

Every artist that's like wildly successful or famous.

I can always find something about them that I think is like really genius, like every single one.

And I was like, wow.

And this is a conversation from 10 years ago.

Ever since then, even artists where I don't like their music, I'm always able to find something about them, whether it's their branding or their visuals or something where I'm like that's fucking genius.

It's much more useful because- I can take it.

Yes, allow me to take the one thing.

Oh my God, I think this person sucks.

And I've found something that I think is great.

So if my opinion is right, How much of a compensatory mechanism is this one thing?

They must have the best Instagram on the planet.

Right, right.

As opposed to this just sucks.

Everything about it sucks.

It's like you're just doing yourself a disservice.

You could be stealing and learning and evolving.

This is, I think, related to the fear of embarrassment that a lot of people have.

You've got a line that's very similar to a friend's.

You said, people who are less talented than you simply care less about being criticized and made fun of will get so much further.

Fear of embarrassment is friction.

Another friend of mine said, there's someone with half your talent and five times your self-belief making 10 times the money.

That was like, I think to be honest, that's me.

That's why I've always talked.

But how do you, so I'm trying to work out how lots of insecurity.

Yeah, married with lots of self-belief, because those two things don't always comport.

No, i think the insecurity was i'm not good enough.

You know, at me we'll just keep it simple.

Early on, it was i'm not good enough at making songs.

My raps aren't good enough, my singing isn't good enough, the beats that i'm making aren't good enough, the mixing isn't good.

None of this is good enough.

I knew that deep down because i would make shit and i would love it.

But then i would go listen to established artists at the time Wiz Khalifa or Drake or Kendrick or JCore or whoever.

And I'd be like, damn, that shit just sounds like way better than my stuff.

And so I knew that my shit wasn't there yet, but I really still genuinely liked what I was doing.

And I had this belief that I could become good enough.

And so the reason I always tell people it's like I loved everything I was doing.

But if I loved it to the point that I'd never thought I could be better, I would have stopped going to the studio.

I would have been like, no, I made my best song ever.

It was last night.

My best song ever is the one I'm making tonight.

And it always is, you know?

Um, but yeah, it's that, that marriage is the old fuel that I'm talking about.

You know, it was cause how long am I supposed to not feel good enough?

You know what I mean?

Because now I don't feel like that anymore.

I feel like my music is years now where I felt like it's good enough.

But yeah, it was a conundrum, man.

It really was.

Strange.

What was the original question?

Fear of embarrassment.

How do we work that in?

Because I said there's someone with half your talent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so I really was not the most talented person at all.

There's artists who their fifth song they've ever made is a massive song.

I'm like, I simply did not have the talent that my fifth song could have even been that big.

I was 110 songs deep before I think that I think on my eighth album, so maybe like 85 songs released, but probably hundreds of songs made before i had made something that was good enough to even be a big song.

You know, i mean that's a lot of work to even just get to the starting line and um, that's why i kind of preach what i preach to up-and-coming artists, which is the majority of y'all are going to be like me.

You're not going to be like the dude who picked it up and on his fifth song it's a billboard charting song, because he's just a freaking nature talent that the majority of us are me, where this shit sucks for mad long.

Like these songs are not good enough for like 200 songs.

You know what I mean?

That is the majority of us.

And I think the belief that I could end up making a great song is what kept me going.

And still to this day, while I try to figure out the direction my hunger is supposed to be pointing, in that, you know, Nor star has never changed, which is I still think I can make the greatest song of my life, You know, And I still think I haven't made it so, but again, it's like I think i've beaten out so many people who were so much better than me.

I had friends growing up that were way better than me, way better, but they just What i'll say is this I think a lot of people cannot tolerate uncertainty the way I can.

I think that's a very underrated skill.

The ability to withstand uncertainty over an extended period of time is a pretty big indicator of if you're going to be a successful artist or not.

I had a lot of friends who they put out one song, didn't blow up.

All right, I'm going to college.

Or they put out one mixtape, it didn't blow up and they're like, this is bullshit, I'm out.

Up and coming artists that I've talked to over the years who They put out a couple songs a year.

They're mad their career is not moving fast.

It's like, you're not moving fast.

How fast can the career move if you're moving slow?

And you have to deal with that uncertainty of the external uncertainty.

And for me, I was able to tolerate external uncertainty.

I was able to tolerate lack of external evidence because I gave myself to certainty.

I knew I was going to make it.

So I didn't need early on.

I didn't need the external validation.

My own internal certainty was enough to temper the fact that when I put the song out it gets two streams.

You know, because I just knew that y'all were wrong.

I believe that.

I seriously thought the first mixtape I ever dropped, I thought it was going to blow up.

I remember like tweeting, tomorrow my life's going to change.

You know what I mean?

It's like, it did it at all.

But believed it.

You know, what about the fear of embarrassment thing, overcoming that?

I didn't have that.

I was consequence blind early on, which I think is just a trait of being young and ignorant.

You know, I didn't.

I didn't know there was pitfalls, I thought you put out music and it blows up and then you ride off into the sunset and everybody loves you, you know, which is why I

This is probably not going to be a popular opinion, but I encourage everyone to go after that crazy dream as young as possible.

Because the older you get, the more aware you become that all that glitters is not gold.

And you start becoming aware of the trade, of the cost of everything.

You also have more to trade, right?

Yeah, right.

And so for me now even, it's like the fear of embarrassment, all that stuff is amplified now.

Because I know there's people watching.

I know there's people looking at me.

Well, I mean, someone asked me this, maybe at the Vancouver show this week.

And they'd said, basically, I want to do my first podcast.

But I'm really nervous.

I'm nervous about what people think.

I'm nervous if people are going to have a judgment on it, all the rest of it.

It's a wonderful question, and it's one that I think a lot of people have.

I'm going to stop you right there.

I can promise you that no one is going to laugh at you for your first podcast.

Do you know why?

No one's going to see it.

No one's fucking listening.

That's why.

Because no one knows who you are.

No one cares.

So you have this beautiful upside only.

You already are not a podcaster.

Yeah.

You already are not a recording artist.

Yeah.

There is only upside.

Imagine if you did a trade and you said you can bet the whole.

Obviously, you can fucking put money down.

You can leave a job.

But assuming that you don't do something insane in order to get your first mixtape or podcast off the ground.

Right.

You can only get better.

It's only upside.

You can only get more views.

There is no.

You've already done no views.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Yeah.

You have an infinity more views that you can get.

Right.

Yeah.

You're competing with zero.

Correct.

Now, like you said at the beginning, you're competing now next year with number eight.

But it's funny.

I always tell up-and-coming artists, take advantage of the fact that nobody gives a fuck.

Because they spend so much time like, do you think that I can drop a song like this right now?

Or what do you think people will think?

I'm like, you got 10 fans, bro.

Nobody gives a flying fuck.

This is the time to do whatever.

I envy the... anonymity that up and coming artists have to a degree.

Obviously, me not being anonymous, me being successful, gives me all these great things, but the purity and clarity you get to operate from when you don't have anyone listening, you don't have any feedback.

That's why people use pseudonyms, right?

They'd start side project.

Oh yeah.

Put on a mask.

Yep.

Yeah.

Your voice.

I've thought about doing shit like that.

Like starting a whole other career.

And just alter my voice, pitch it down or pitch it up, change the production.

And that'd be cool.

I've thought about it almost every day for like five years.

Do you know that Sick Kick guy?

Sick Kick, no.

Sick Kick.

So he's a, fuck, like a lot of things.

He does live sequencing is one of his big things.

So big fuck off MIDI pad.

And he always wears a mask.

I did a big doom scroll.

I wanted to call it a deep dive, but that makes it sound too sophisticated.

I was doom scrolling.

And I went through his Instagram.

I was like, oh, nobody knows who this motherfucker is.

The guy can sing.

He can rap.

He can definitely fucking produce and mix.

And he does some originals.

He's got original albums, all the rest of it.

And he said, I'm never going to release my face until I get a Grammy.

And the whole thing, if he sings, he lifts the mask up just so it covers the bottom of his nose.

He'll sing through that and then he'll pull it back down.

He plays DJ gigs and does all the rest of it.

And I thought that was really cool.

There's a big rapper right now, SD Kid from London, who everyone thinks is Timothee Chalamet.

Isn't that awesome?

And he's rapping with like a scowl sax set.

Right okay, i can promise you it's not timothy chalamet, it might be, wouldn't that be fuck?

And timothy chalamet is like feeding into it.

We're asking him in interviews.

They're like is this uni's like?

All will be revealed, brilliant.

What if?

Imagine, if you imagine, if you're that artist though, and you find out that timothy chalamet love that through no like uh, construction of your own is somehow feeding into your own law.

Right like hey, timothy dude, fucking appreciate you man, because you know there's going to be time in five years when everyone's like you remember when people thought yeah yeah, of course, but it's no, it is a um.

Anonymity is freedom.

You know, there's a liberty, creative liberty, and freedom you have when nobody knows who you are.

But again, the higher you climb, the further you have to fall that there's a big difference between never made it and fell off.

Holy fuck dude, that fell off hurts so much harder than never made it.

Well, because you had it.

Yeah, You were there.

You were there.

Yeah.

But by design, by design.

Unless you continue to be the best in the world, like Mike Tyson, you're not going to continue to be the most dominant.

Athletes.

I don't know how they do it, man.

It's a lesson in humility.

Because the stuff that we do, we can do forever, you know, but athletes, it's like you got what?

A 10 year window.

Maybe, especially like if you're running back in the NFL eight.

Well, think about even from your industry, musicians.

Oh, yeah.

Female artists.

Yeah.

Female artists have an additional price that they need to pay.

Yep.

Like, oh, you want a family?

Guess what?

You want a couple of kids?

That's like a four, five-year hiatus.

I think about that all the time man, to be honest, because I know, in my industry specifically, rap youth is equivalent to cool.

Old is lame.

And the currency in rap is being cool.

So how do you be old and cool in a genre where those are antonyms?

You know, i mean um, but that's why i love seeing older rappers have success.

Who's a good example clips?

Pusha t and his brother malice, who grammy nominated?

They're like 49 years old.

The album's great.

It's like that's important for hip-hop as a whole.

Whether or not you feel this way about them or whatever the mu, it doesn't matter.

It's what it's doing for the genre, which is telling people you can have maturity, wisdom and still be cool in a genre that appears to only clap for youthful energy.

I'll say, you know, it's like, oh man, that is inspiring.

So you're telling me it doesn't all end Without being a legacy act, without you just having to run it back.

Right.

Just play your debut.

You know what I mean?

They're putting out a new album that people love.

Like it was their debut album.

That to me is inspiring.

We're seeing an artist like Kehlani catch her biggest hit ever 10 years into her career.

Like I just posted that today.

I'm like, if this doesn't inspire you, I don't know what will.

Like this is.

For me, as an artist, the scariest thing is to consider the possibility that well, at some point your best years are going to be behind you right surely, like your biggest song was the one you put out five years ago and you'll net and you'll just never do it again, and so i always get scared.

That is that this year.

Well, it's a good excuse to not put out your best song, right?

That's why somebody would i'll just hold a little bit back right, hold a little bit back, yeah.

And that's why people don't understand why, for me and other artists, I know the numbers.

It's not ego anymore.

It's existential.

If I look at streams and I see they're lower than I think they should be, I don't have an ego situation happening.

I have an existential crisis happening because I'm thinking, oh my God, is this it?

Is this the start of the decline?

I'm no longer able to take care of myself, my family, the responsibility.

Is this it?

So it's not ego.

It's not.

My songs are so much better than this is some bullshit.

It's it feels like it's feedback turns into a threat instead of just data.

You know, and it's scary.

Well, because your sense of self is wrapped up in this thing now.

Yeah, when the work becomes your worth, it's over with.

Of course.

Do people love me for who I am or for what I do?

Yeah.

And if all I do is what I do, then what happens when that gets taken away?

That means that the love's going to go too.

People only want me because of what I can do.

And if I can do less, then I am less.

And it's strange because people want to win.

He has men, right?

Not to do the woe is me, men shit.

But we do get taught that we're only as good as what we provide, as the value we provide.

And so, as an artist, as a man, it's like well, I'm providing value now but, to your point, if the streams are going down, does that mean I'm providing less?

And if I start to provide less value, does that mean the love is going to decorate as well?

It's a great point.

And uh, the first car.

I've talked so much about sex differences and um, first conversation i ever had this year where someone just called it out direct and it's the first time that anyone's ever done it.

I thought it was so great.

I was having a conversation with a guy who wrote a book about uh, the female orgasm and he was basically saying that, as far as he could see, the female orgasm is a selection mechanism that uh, it is a physiological, embodied way of the woman's desire responding to how she perceives her mate.

And I basically mentioned that.

Well, this feels a little bit ruthless, that guys are sort of being judged in this manner that they don't really get to control.

They just sort of are who they are and they've worked on themselves to the extent that they do.

And they turn up and you know this this, whereas for women they don't have the same type of judgment.

Like it's a matter of more mechanical say in that regard.

And instead of equivocating.

Instead of needing to say, well, you know, because men have got it.

And he went, no, you're right.

Yeah.

That it's, it's tough.

And that's the way it is.

Women.

Women have this particular type of uh blessing or curse or judgment, or ability to scrutinize or bestow uh status or take it away from uh from a guy uh, in the same way as is true here, which is, I think, that you just need to accept as a man.

Yeah.

Your value to the world is going to be tightly tied to your competence.

Yeah.

And if your competence seems to be dipping, the world is going to love you a little bit less.

They're going to need you a little bit less.

And that's why you can't rely on that.

And it's also why you need a fucking partner who sees outside of that.

Like if you have, I've got a couple of friends who are in relationships with I don't know what you would call it, highly status sensitive women one of them that is such a gentle gentle but i'm really trying to use because what's one is well look one of them one of them's diana fleischman who is a evolutionary psychologist and she's married to jeffrey miller and uh jeffrey's told me this story before but she's like got some dark triad tendency she's wonderful warm lady i i think she's fantastic and i like her a lot but she's definitely got some sort of psychopathic tendencies in her enough, enough, enough to make a fantastic mother and a great partner, but also that she has some sensitivities that I. I've heard like just great.

So like if if, if they're driving and Jeffrey misses a turn because he's not watching or because he like gets bullied by somebody who's in the lane that he needs to get in, she's has like a little bit of an ick response because her sensitivity to his competence level is quite tightly attuned.

Um, I was talking to a girl not long ago and she said that she saw her partner trip on the street and was like uh, I'm not really, I don't want to, I don't want to.

Like you know, for the next five minutes.

You're not that attractive to me.

And I think that um, in some ways, that kind of a relationship would compel men to keep doing more.

Not only do you have to perform out there, but you've got to perform in here too.

Awful, but that's bad for and for certain guys like jeffrey.

For some reason, this guy is just construct.

These two are built to be together.

Yeah, so constructed to be together.

He's got no jealousy, he's got no insecurity, he's just like uh, it is what it is, and he keeps on showing up.

Yeah um, for me, with my construction, i need a safe harbor.

I need to feel like same same, i'm done being the chris williamson and i get to come home and be christopher.

Yeah, and that like.

There's a line.

I wrote this a little while ago um, sturgill simpson has a song that my friend um played at his wedding.

That was the best man at his wedding.

And uh i, i came up with what i think basically every man wants to hear, which is i know you can be more, but you are enough already.

And even if you just stay where you are, I'll be right here next to you.

You're going to be great, but you don't need to be great.

And I'm with you no matter what.

Or as said best by Sturgill Simpson's mum boy I don't care if you hit it big, because you're already number one.

I would say I do right now.

But that, I think... That is so spot on, man.

Yeah, I agree.

It's so spot on.

Because we feel like we have to go out there and conquer and perform and excel and climb and and if you feel like you still have to be on your fucking a game yeah, and be nailed and be on vigilant, you know, with your partner, oh man, that would, that would just be a wreck and, to be honest, it's been a hurdle of mine because that's my default setting.

Right is to perform beyond be perfect and That, I think, has caused vulnerability issues for me.

Because if I'm vulnerable, then I'm going to not be perfect.

You're going to see me not be great.

You're going to see me with training wheels on.

I don't want you to see me with training wheels on.

My love will be withdrawn.

Yeah.

Come back when I'm doing flips.

Yeah.

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One of the wildest things is this year I've probably been more uh below the neck than i ever have.

It's a journey that i kind of regret regret.

I hate previous me for embarking on it, because it's really fucking hard.

But i think future me will be proud.

Okay, but at the moment i'm in the valley of just eating shit with emotions.

Um, but one of the things that I've noticed this year more people have said that they love me than ever before.

More friends have said, you know, just guys, dudes, I like, I fucking love you, man.

And then, like you know, just like it comes out of you sometimes, sometimes maybe it's because we're getting a bit older.

Maybe it's because we're part of this movement.

Maybe it's because I've released like 30 podcasts this year on fucking emotions and they've all been listening to them.

And I've read, pulled them with the same kryptonite that I read, pulled myself with.

And now we're all in the valley of despair together.

I'm not too sure.

But, um, more, more of my friends have said that they love me this year than ever before.

And I, I, I just have to fucking assume that that's because they actually got to see me a bit.

They genuinely got to see me.

You know, I'm backstage at some show and I'm just in the fucking trenches.

Like everything, everything, everything, everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong.

And uh, one of the shows.

Two weeks ago one of my boys like hugged me for two minutes.

Must've been two minutes.

And the other one said a prayer while we were there.

And then I go out.

Did the show.

Show went good.

Came back.

And I was like, fuck, like I borrowed his nervous system.

Yeah.

Like I fucking like mine was not mine wasn't robust enough.

So like he fucking lent me some of his piece.

Yeah.

Wow.

So what would you do in that moment if they're not there?

What does that look like?

The same thing I've done my entire life.

I'm an only child, dude.

Like I can get through.

I can get through anything, but I'm sick of fucking Lone Ranger.

I'm sick of white knuckling my way through it, because now, not only do i know that the show went great and everybody really loved it and the people from caa were there and they've got all of these notes and oh, we need to do the blah blah, all this stuff, but now i've got the memory of, like me and the guys backstage and it's not a memory of us high-fiving or drinking beers or celebrating.

It's like this, very small, like kind of mundane, very private, normal.

Yeah, like beautiful memory.

Yeah, that i've got where.

I'm like fuck, like i'm borrowed some of max's nervous system and bennett said a fucking prayer and like, and that's, you know, seared into my.

It's like microdosing, going through a hard time together.

Yes yeah yeah, yeah.

And finding like, and they're watching community yeah, they're seeing it, and they're like fuck, like chris is really fucking suffering at the moment and that's what gets them.

I'm like oh, if i'd kept that in um, I would have not got the support that I desperately needed.

You didn't even give them the opportunity.

Yeah.

They would have not had the opportunity to give that to me.

We would not have all gone through this shared experience of difficulty that we came out, the other side of which has now bonded us all together.

Just an endless list of reasons to do it.

And the reason to not do it is that some people might laugh at you.

Right, it's like well, i don't know if the people around you laugh at you when you show your emotions.

If you're the sort of person who feels them and i'm not, i'm not convinced that everybody feels them equally sort of widely or deeply, but if you're the sort of person that does like you need to be around.

People that can hold that yeah, need to be around.

I think you you know connor beaton, oh yeah, good friend of mine yeah, and uh, He's got this line where he talks about your friends need to be able to hold you in the complexity of your emotions.

And some people have got more complexity and some have less.

And that's why I think so many friendships that don't work and relationships that don't work are just two people.

It's incompatibility.

It's not that they're bad.

It's that you're fundamentally incompatible.

You think it's a capacity issue though, yeah?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah, that would be that's an even better way to put it.

Yes.

But and that's almost like a choice, though.

I'm not sure.

It's almost like is it incompatible because of something innate or is it incompatible because you're choosing to not expand your capacity for my shit?

I had a great conversation with Connor in that seat like two weeks ago.

Yeah.

And coming out in between Christmas and New Year.

And I basically asked this question.

I was like does everybody because again me putting on the diving mask and going, going fully down over the last 12 months has it just keeps growing and getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

And the, the amount that my emotions can sort of permeate everything that I do.

And like my fucking daily experience is so great and so painful at the same time.

Hmm.

Does everyone feel shit like this?

And his position was genuinely.

There are some people who just don't have that big of a breadth, or maybe their sort of net of positive and negative is skewed in different sorts of ways.

So, you know, if you're talking about excitement, they're happy to go there with you.

But if you want to talk about wistfulness or rumination or vigilance or sadness or anxiety, they're not.

And the same vice versa, too.

Uh, Stan Tatkin has this idea of uh, airplanes and submarines.

Airplanes, nervous systems are able to move real fast and they're kind of a pie.

And submarines they go slow deep and then they take a little while to come back up and repressurize.

But maybe it is far more people than know it are not feeling feelings because they choose not to than because they can't.

Yeah.

Like there is a much bigger proportion of people who should be feeling them and aren't, than like can't.

Right.

I agree.

Yeah.

I think there's also.

I've had to learn that not everyone is meant to know everything and you're not meant to share everything with everyone.

Certain friends are selective.

Yeah.

It's like, this is for them.

This is, That used to fuck me up though.

It made me feel like I was being fake or something you know like.

Nah, everyone in my life needs to get every part of me.

Otherwise I'm being inauthentic.

It's like, no, this is, you know, how do you balance vulnerability and strength?

You're in an industry which is um, not exactly renowned for its acceptance of male fragility yeah, and inner work, yeah.

How do you think about balancing those?

Um, it's scary and it's getting less scary because i'm doing it so naturally i'm, you know, kind of disarming the fear by just facing it.

It's scary because i know that not only is the genre that i'm in sort of resistant to vulnerability, but the audience of men are resistant to vulnerability.

So, you know, I think my music and my career has gone through this transition where I would say, before Santiago, this album that I put out in 2023, everything before then was me about conquering the external terrain.

And then Santiago marked the shift in this like line of demarcation where it was.

Well, now I'm going inward, you know.

Let me explore this.

And now the most recent album is sort of the integration.

That's what I'm working on now.

Cause again, I said earlier, I don't want to just endlessly self monitor and just stay in here.

You know, I do have to figure out what's the new dream now, you know?

Um, but I'm just a very big believer in being vulnerable and confronting the parts of you that are.

You know that you've been trying to act like don't exist.

That's real strength.

I don't think you're strong for being scared to face yourself, you know?

And I think I haven't said it on this song clue that I just put out, like a couple of weeks ago where um, I said the monsters I'm making meds with monsters that you're scared to face, you know, and the demons you pretend to don't exist.

I'm fighting publicly.

It's like that to me.

What I'm doing, you know, is courageous and i know it is because this is the kind of that i was scared to do in private.

I was scared to sit with the parts of me that i didn't like in private.

I'm telling you about him on a song.

You know i'm not rapping about someone else's life.

This is my.

You know i mean, this is my life.

These are songs that are sparking conversations with my parents and family members and, like yo, what you know, like this is real life.

I'm fighting this publicly In hopes that one.

It's because it's cathartic for me and I need to, and it's exciting for me to just talk about.

It's what I'm passionate about.

But two, it's the hopes that a couple more years of doing this, the men in my fan base be like okay, I can do it now.

You know?

You've given them permission.

Right.

You've given them permission.

And the scariest thing is someone who does that permissionlessly.

Yeah.

Right.

There was no permission to do that.

Yeah.

Uh, or fewer role models for your archetypes.

Yeah.

Uh, is the reverse of yours that still resonates with you?

Sort of the most deeply, this huge, massive back catalog of yours.

Is this something that you, you come back to as a philosophy lots?

Wow.

I've never been asked that shit.

I have recency bias though.

It's just whatever the most recent song is.

Um, probably clue, because clues the first song, where I have said what I've been trying to say for years, which is you just don't have a clue about what it's like to be me.

And I didn't know how to articulate it without sounding like whining about success, you know?

And so I was very um, intentional about not not making it sound like that, not talking about anything material really, um.

But you know, the second verse is i resent your audacity.

You can't last as me, you spineless fucker, you can't hold your life together, let alone the lives of others.

So you talk it to like and it goes into this whole thing about just like i don't resent you, i resent your audacity that you think you know what this is.

You don't, and that's okay.

And what I tell people is sometimes your level of understanding should just be that you don't understand.

And that's got to be enough.

You're claiming that you do.

And you haven't done the life experience to understand and you're commenting.

So you just haven't earned the experience to comment on this.

And that goes for so many people.

That's what spawned my posts about people comparing struggles.

It's like, I would never critique or comment somebody's struggle that I just don't know about.

I don't have the resume.

I don't have the credentials to comment on what it's like to be.

You know, you were a single mom and this happened you lost your job.

Or a med student.

Yeah, it's like, I don't fucking know.

Like I kind of get imposter syndrome when fans hit me up with like certain stories of theirs where they're like I'm going through this.

What do you think I should do?

I'm like, I have no fucking idea.

That sounds fucking hard, dude.

Yeah.

And you know that's something I've had to learn too is within my own family.

Is that fine line between empathy and Jumping into the hole with y'all?

You know you're going through a hard time.

Well, fuck it.

Me too now.

Cause that to me is what love is and, and caring is, but that does us no good.

Have you got into Joe Hudson?

You familiar with Joe?

I'll send you some of his stuff.

So he's um good, really really great, coach eastern western stuff, and he's got a framework for conversations view vulnerability impartiality, empathy and wonder.

So vulnerability is speaking your truth, especially when it's scary.

Impartiality is not trying to change your experience.

Empathy is uh, sitting in the emotion without becoming the emotion, and wonder is curiosity without an outcome.

Wow, um.

So view vulnerability impartiality, empathy and one really that's just emotional sovereignty is what like, wrapped up, is that.

That's been the toughest thing for me.

How do i hear about a hard time my mom's going through without wanting to make her emotions my emotions?

Well, the The problem.

There's two reasons there, two multiple fucking horrible things.

First one if you absorb somebody else's emotions as yours, you're now in a much more unfunctional position to be able to help them.

Exactly.

You don't have the bandwidth.

Secondly, if someone is upset and they see that they're upset is causing you to be upset, that means that they feel like their pain is hurting you and they'll clamp it down.

Exactly.

So there isn't room for it.

Uh, and I mean one of the things that one of the things that Connor says that I've never heard anybody say before, which I think is such a fucking wonderful, like reassuring.

Uh, third place

So Joe talks about speaking from the third place.

So first place is judgment, second place is savior, third place is just impartiality.

So you can even feel it when you sort of sit in it.

So the next time that someone's trying to have a difficult conversation with you just sat across.

If you've got like an open posture, so your feet are on the ground and your hands are just sort of on your thighs and you're not sort of forward and you're not sort of back and doing the judgment thing.

You just sat in a third place and you're balanced between that judgment and that savior position.

Wow and uh.

Connor had this line where he said uh, your emotions aren't too big for me.

Hmm.

Oh dude, your emotions aren't too big for me.

Yeah.

I can hold you in this.

That's fine.

I'm safe.

I'm okay.

Yeah.

You don't need to worry about you.

You worry about you.

You don't need to worry about me.

Yeah.

Right.

And I just thought, I thought it was so wonderful.

It is man.

God, that has been a challenge of my thirties.

I've gotten better at it now, but it used to be.

I couldn't understand why me swooping in to fix things and and being so affected by your emotions to the point where they feel like they're mine what i was doing wrong.

I could have swore like no, you're the one that's fucked up for catastrophizing small shit and freaking out to the point where i gotta feel like i gotta swoop in.

But i had to learn that well, wait a second.

I'm not doing anyone a service by jumping into this fucking lake with you while you're drowning.

But you're not really drowning, your feet on the floor, you're just flapping your arms.

And i'm starting to flap my arms too like yeah, what is going?

You know, i mean, that's not doing anything.

So i had to learn my emotions end here and yours start there and there's space.

And now i can still be here for you And I can help.

And if you don't want a solution, that's fine.

I can just be here And I and I have so much more bandwidth now.

I had no bandwidth my whole life because I wasn't just dealing with my Emotions.

I had hers, I his, I had it was all part of my shit.

You know, and i'm it's not like perfect now, but Just understanding that concept of emotional sovereignty has been life-changing.

When you start off as permeable, as absorbent as you were, even the smallest movement in the right direction feels like a massive gain.

It's such a normal response.

Somebody is going through something and you want to say it's going to be OK.

You want to make them be OK because they're in pain and you don't want them to be in pain.

Yeah.

But you saying to somebody who's in pain it's going to be OK is the same as you saying you're not OK.

This is making me not OK.

And I need you to be OK so that I can be OK.

Right.

There is there is no room for your emotions.

They're too big.

They're too big and they're making me uncomfortable, or I don't think that you can handle them, or something.

So I'm going to step in and I'm going to like pervert this direction that you're on, as opposed to just going fuck man.

I'm really sorry that you're feeling that.

Yeah.

Really sorry that you're feeling that.

You know what Connor told me one time is getting to the place where your partner or someone that you love has a bad day.

You're allowed to have a good day though.

Them having a bad day.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And it's not threatening to them and it's not guilt-ridden to you.

Yeah.

Your wife, your mom, whoever they can be having a bad day, and you're still allowed to have a good day.

And that was a huge shift for me because I was like, nah, if my girl's having a bad day, I'm upset.

But then that creates that whole, oh, so me being upset is now making you upset?

Yeah.

And it's just a mess.

Obligation.

There's no space.

Yeah.

Obligation's a weird one.

Yeah, man.

That, um, in order for you to not be okay.

Yeah.

In order for, for me to be okay.

I mean, I need you to not be okay.

Um, like that's the inverse, which is people who take a degree of, like cathartic, resentful pleasure in their part, somebody in their life falling behind.

That's the rival risks.

Sort of nature thing.

So it occurs on both sides.

Like the people that you're coming up with.

You're brushing shoulders and a couple of sharp elbows with and you see somebody fall behind.

And then so if you reflect on that enough and you're an empathetic human, you realize that that's kind of a toxic fuel and you don't really want to be using that.

You don't want your success to stand on the shoulders of other people's downfalls.

Yeah, then the people in your life if they feel bad now you feel bad like you felt guilty for that one and yeah, so you.

That emotional sovereignty, i think, is a lovely way to think about joe, uh.

An equivalent of that is vagal authority uh, where he stays in a room if somebody is losing their shit.

Do you maintain your vagal independence?

Yeah and uh.

Yeah, I think it's cool that you've arrived at the same realization.

Well, yeah, my default setting was to be intertwined.

Even with my career projected onto my fans.

The emotional enmeshment I'm in with my fans and career is damaging sometimes, you know, because sometimes i'll feel again i'll catastrophize what's happening in my life because the streams being low this time feels existential, and then i'll show up with that energy to the world and to my fans, and it it's.

What does that energy look like?

I don't know if it is.

I think it's covert.

I hope it's covert.

They're like nah, we can tell you're a mess.

Yeah.

You're a mess.

And we know, um, I, I honestly, I don't know what it looks like for them.

I think for me, it's more visceral.

It's frantic.

It's panicky.

It's, um, bouncing off the walls.

It's, I got to make something happen right now.

I got to make something shake, you know?

And uh Yeah, it's like sometimes I don't know if this, I feel like this is related, because I'm feeling compelled to say it.

Sometimes I wish I was the kind of artist who could drop one album every two years, and it's huge and massive.

You do the tour and I'll see you all in two years.

50 of the reason why I drop so much music is because I love making songs and sharing them genuinely.

The other 50%, is because none of these have gone huge yet to the point where I can take time off.

You know what I mean?

And it's some of that franticness, some of that existential oh my God, the ship is sinking is what fuels the output still to this day.

Same for me, dude.

Same for me.

Six years in at three a week, you'll be episode 1,150, 1,100, something like that.

I don't want to give the universe a chance.

Yeah.

Just crushing the chance to move on.

Crushing volumes of evidence.

Like there is no way that with this much output that, that something's got to happen.

Yeah, exactly.

But it is, uh, you make yourself, uh, a victim of your own work, right?

Yeah.

Um, and there's an idea called the red queen effect.

I think anyone's ever talked about this, at least not in music, which is crazy, because it's a fucking sick idea.

So in Alice in Wonderland, Alice is running around a tree and she runs faster and faster and faster around the tree, but she starts moving more slowly.

There's a line from the Red Queen where she says you see, my dear, you now have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same place.

Oh, shit.

I think that's really cool.

Yeah.

It's the classic full calendar day and now you need to become more efficient and you need an assistant to take on the extra calls.

And you've got to do the and, before you know it, in order to just stay in the same place, you have to work as hard as you ever have, fuck.

That's why the idea of climbing another mountain is fun, because it i i kind of alluded to uh, when you're cutting weight versus bulking versus maintenance.

Maintenance sucks for me because there's no big change happening.

Cutting, you see weight flying off, or bulking, you see weight flying on.

And to your point, it's just, it gets exhausting having to exert so much energy just to maintain.

Yeah, because you set yourself a pace when the fuel was different.

And you know, this is another joe hudson thing where he says when you become successful, your job is not to work hard, your job is to have great ideas and if if, your goal is to make it.

And then you do make it and you're still punishing yourself just as much as you were in the beginning.

You've still got that sort of come up energy.

In many ways that's uh, compelling it, it's inspiring to people.

Yeah, it feels grassroots and sort of upward aiming and noble.

But so much of that is you being terrified that if a few things if people see you take your foot off the gas, maybe you'll become irrelevant.

Or if people see you take your foot off the gas, they'll think that you've become a bourgeois luxuriating like uh um, incumbent.

Right, you're like a you, you're a nepo baby, but you're the father and the child.

Yes yes, that's the.

The real fear is that it's i'm gonna lose relevance and the only way to find out if i can be one of those artists who can go away and come back and not, is by doing it.

But then you might find out too late.

Yeah, not everyone's.

John bellion?

Yeah, i've seen that happen to artists.

You know um or yeah, the oh, who do you think you are?

You think you're just this.

You don't need to work so hard.

It goes back to the overrated underrated thing.

There's a real sick part of my fucking mind that is terrified of more success, because right now, to my fans, I'm still very much slept on and underrated right.

What happens if, and when I catch the billboard top 10 song and it's massive.

Well, now are you going to root for me now?

Cause.

Now I'm Tom Brady.

You know what i mean.

Now it's like are you gonna root for the person who's winning, even though i'm winning?

But, to the like, from an optics viewpoint, it's like well, he's not this super mainstream guy, he's still so slept on, he's not in the conversations and part of me is like let me just stay right here.

Yeah, it's like i'm an underdog forever.

Yeah, you know.

Yeah well again, so much of that is a very accurate representation of the way that human psychology works, unfortunately.

And it is that underdog uh, overrated thing that yeah, when you're on your way up, people support you because you remind them of their dreams, and when you're at the top, people try to tear you down because you remind them of what they gave up on.

And um god yes, it's a alex.

One of my friends has this story about where He started off his gym business, sleeping on the gym floor, and it was underneath a car park that had these metal rivets in.

So every time a car drove over it at night, we'd go, and he was sleeping on the gym floor.

And he was the underdog.

People loved him when he was the underdog.

All they wanted to do was see him succeed.

And now he'd know that he's slept.

He's moved his bedding over to the far side of the gym and then he'd take the classes and then he'd move it back at night.

And then 18 months later, I think he'd maybe expanded to a couple of locations.

And when people came in, they'd be like, boss man, how's everything going?

And he's like, well, I did what you said you wanted me to do.

I did it.

Yeah.

And now that I've done it, the dynamics change.

Yeah.

And you're no longer in my corner.

People want you to be in pursuit forever because that's relatable.

Oh, that's great.

That's so true.

They just want you to be in pursuit.

They never want you to get there.

If you get there and I'm not there, what's that say about me?

Oh, you think you're better than me because you got there.

Well, also, you're no longer relatable because if you've made it, then you're not.

And maybe that's part of the reason that if you appear to take your foot off the gas a little bit, that it doesn't seem like you're still on the climb.

Of course.

It feels like you're just sort of floating with momentum.

In a fucked way, I'm scared that if more people like me, more people will not like me.

Well, that's true.

You know what I mean?

Any increase in love often feels like an increase in hate, because we forget the compliments and we remember the criticism.

So if any time that your platform grows and you get, You know, the proportion of love stays the same, which is what you're trying to do and you should do on average, right?

It's like, you know, 99 to 1, love to hate.

But because you forget the love, any increase just feels like an increase in hate.

Because your brain is like Teflon for good thoughts and Velcro for bad thoughts.

Yeah.

It's a radar for negativity.

It's just on the hunt.

Always looking for it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's an interesting difference between the UK and the US, And I wonder whether this this will happen within sort of small communities too.

But um, in America, I think, on average more people want to see you win, in case you take them with you.

And in the UK people want to see you stay where you are in case you leave them behind.

Wow.

And this disparity between the two.

So there was a, an article that came out in, um, the times.

Uh, and the lady who wrote this article was basically saying we've got three podcasters from the UK in the top 10 this year and it's really cringe and embarrassing because they're all doing personal development and british people should be.

They should satisfyingly wallow in their own misery and they're so.

They should be stiff upper lip in their own loneliness and discomfort and trying to sort of improve yourself.

Is is sort of like lame and cringe and very americanized and and not cool and um, I just thought what a shame.

I mean, our country is not exactly showering itself in glory at the moment.

And if there was any better representation of how much the UK culture is one of tall poppy syndrome, that even in the opportunity to celebrate the fact that we're punching above our weight on the world stage when the country's kind of eating shit at the moment no, we shouldn't have done it.

We should have done it.

We should have You should have succeeded this way.

Ironic speech.

It was too honest.

It was too serious.

You were trying to make you remember your place.

Remember where you are.

Remember where you're from.

Right.

And, uh, I saw what a, what a wonderful example of, of, of our culture.

Like that's our cultural export at the moment.

Not this, not not a conversation about earnestness and bravery, with emotions and trying to improve yourself.

Not a uh ungainly unwieldy, uh delicate conversation about how to balance lots of conflicting and intention desires in life, but like a piss-taking comment going lol, this is fucking gay, dare i say, on brand, because it's a bit snobby, dude.

It fucking works, it works, but it works.

It works for a very specific cohort and this is why unfortunately, the uk for a wild variety of reasons, but the culture is not insignificant We have the same number of universities in the top 10 globally as America does, but we produce 80 fewer entrepreneurs.

And you've got King's College London, Oxford, Cambridge, maybe Durham's in there.

I'm not sure.

It's at least three.

Anna, you think?

So our candidate remembering that we'll have Americans.

Yeah.

Right.

So like we'll imbibe people from other countries.

Yeah.

Fucking Stockholm syndrome into our culture of like, don't get too big for your boots.

Yeah.

Dude, this is so hilarious.

I just thought it was so interesting.

I think society wants to keep people at arm's length when it comes to relatability.

It's too scary when you're so far away from where I'm at, you know, especially when I knew you when you were right there.

It's just confronting for people.

And I just think people want you to be successful, just not more than them.

You know what I mean?

Like climb up the ladder.

Just don't pass me though.

I want you to climb as high as you can, as long as it's not higher than me.

Yeah.

As high, but just a tiny little bit.

And then stay here forever and let's grind it out.

Yeah.

Forever.

Let's be in a perpetual grind.

Yeah.

I love that idea about people want to always see you in pursuit.

Yeah.

There's something romantic about it.

There's something relatable about it.

But that keeps people sort of with their foot on the gas.

Again, like, if the things that you want to have happen, happen.

If you build the business, the body, the whatever, what happens when you get there?

What is your plan when you finally get there, because you kind of need to have one.

And what you'll find is, if you think about um, you're doing this big fucking journey, this massive, massive journey, and you've got to get to this place.

That's really really really far away.

And the start of the journey is you going across a river, so you're in a boat, and then you realize 500 miles later that you're out of the river, but you're still carrying the fucking boat on your head.

You're like this tool, this fuel, was meant for then, but it's not meant for now.

And I think we have a very poor judgment of when we're supposed to let go of those tools of need for validation insufficiency, desperate desire to be liked by that goal.

Yeah.

The kids that didn't believe in me in school.

Like finally make mom and dad 11 or whatever.

Like you're very bad at switching fuels.

Yeah.

Well, but again, it's because most people live in this suspended chase forever.

Most people are chasing the thing forever.

And so they're not trying to hear any sort of pitfalls of the thing.

I'm chasing that.

Do you mind?

You know what I mean?

Like that's the mentality.

And what can you tell them?

It's kind of like, you know, think about the alchemist book and Santiago just getting to the Oasis.

Is that where the name for the album came from?

Yeah.

Have you walked it, the Camino?

No.

So I don't know whether I'm going to, but I might do the epilogue to the Santiago over New York.

Wow.

So you do the big Camino to Santiago, you finish in Santiago Square.

Is that the...

I think, I'm talking about Palo Coelho now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's it?

So Santiago's.

It's a different Camino, but I think Palo Coelho walked it and it's got to be related to his name.

The journey that he takes, takes him through fucking Egypt and the rest of the stuff.

But anyway, you walk from east to west and Santiago's kind of northwest of Spain, kind of above Spain. above portugal but there's an epilogue to the walk and it goes from santiago to finisterra and they thought it's the most westerly point of spain and they thought it was the edge of the world because out in front of you is just the atlantic wow so uh it's about a 90k something like that and you can do it in five days ish so uh i'm thinking i'm gonna go to my mom and dad's for christmas and then i'm gonna fly there on my own and i'm thinking about doing that over new year's yeah so yeah walk to the the edge of the world from wow the middle ages perception yeah yeah um you were saying santiago album yeah i just think that you know it's kind of like santiago goes on this whole journey he falls in love with the girl in the desert the oasis he wants to stay at the oasis but he's like that's not even what the fuck i was supposed to be doing and she's like you're a man of the desert you're supposed to keep going and he goes to the pyramid he gets to the pyramid And he swears that there's gold there and that's why he was going.

And he's digging the shit up and there's no gold.

And then he just hits his ass beat.

And they joke with him like oh, he's probably thinking about the gold that's buried under that tree in Andalusia, which is where the story starts.

Is Santiago waking up under this tree where the gold was at the whole time?

So I still kind of oscillate on what to make of it, but I just think it's kind of how I interpreted it was.

It was you all along.

That was the last kind of song on my album was you were looking for you, but you needed to go on this journey to end up kind of right back where you were, which is, with yourself and understanding that the journey was beautiful.

You met this girl, you met Fatima, you know, you met all these people, you learned what you're capable of, which I think is kind of why, men have this fascination with uh self-sabotaging you know is because we all want to see what we're capable of you know and it's kind of fucked it's a very toxic attraction to bottoming out you know what are we capable of but that goes back to when the chips are down yeah but that goes back to not having enough initiatory experiences yeah well i think certainly the thing and this wasn't my insight i'm stealing it but that wasn't mine either yeah i think that it's um the best reading of that story in my opinion is ending up at the place that you started is not the same as having never left right right that's beautiful in order to go on this journey so there's this example i think it's That's so beautiful.

Some ancient Greek philosopher like Aristotle or something.

And he said imagine that you have a cork bobbing in the ocean and you have a ship that goes out and they're friends.

And the ship goes out, sails around, goes and visits places and people get on and people get off.

And there's a cork that's bobbing in the harbor.

And then the ship.

Eventually, after this long long, long journey, it comes back and the cork and the ship, they talk to each other.

And the ship says to the cork, well, sort of, what did you do?

Did you go on a journey?

He said, well, you know, I was here.

I was out in the ocean.

I've been to the ocean the same time as you.

It's the difference between going on a journey and staying in the harbor and bobbing up and down.

The time's going to pass anyway.

You're still in the water.

Yeah.

But what have you done?

What did that adventure look like?

About fulfillment.

Yeah.

It's funny, too.

You know, I always think about that old like fisherman proverb when you talk about what do you do when you arrive.

Mm-hmm.

The whole, like, the guys out on the boat fishing, the businessman comes.

This is what I'm doing right now.

But it's just so strange to me.

I can't get a grasp on where my hunger is supposed to be.

Well, humans aren't designed to arrive.

We've never been designed to arrive.

Yeah.

Even ancestrally.

When agricultural revolution like 13000 years ago, something like that before that the amount of food that you could store was as much as you could collect that day, plus a bit.

Yeah, there is no arriving, there is just constant pursuit, there's just strive yeah, so we are really maladapted to an environment in which you can actually take your foot off the gas.

And then, if you've been given a lot of reward by the world and you've habituated it, you've built all of these patterns and these sources of validation and just your daily behavioral routines.

I need to let go of all of this, plus a few million years of programming in a desperate attempt to just be able to go.

To just be.

I've arrived.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good luck.

And then where does your sense of self-worth come from then?

And I think that that's the big question that people you know lots of people that listen to your music and listen to my show will become successful and they will face a question that's not too dissimilar to this, which is fuck.

I thought that this thing was the answer to my problems.

It's not.

Am I going to keep eating more of the food that I know doesn't hydrate me in a desperate attempt to think that it will?

Or am I going to turn around and try and find where the sort of problem comes from?

And that's the therapy thing.

I think in the meantime, I just keep doing the work.

I keep making this.

What does that look like to you?

Well, for me, Just learning that the fruits of my labor, that whole saying the labor's the fruit, you know.

And so, while I try to figure out what the fuck to do and where to go and where to point my ambition and hunger and where to get a charge from in the new dream, I'm going to at least keep my feet moving and keep doing the work of my artistry, because that is still a huge sense of fulfillment for me to still make a song, to have an idea, turn nothing into something, to execute an idea, for it to sound like this in my head

And then it comes out sounding like that.

It's still extremely rewarding.

It's visceral when it happens.

And so it's been a huge support system for me, my my creative side, because while I try to figure everything else out, At least I have sustenance from this thing, still without any metrics.

I always tell people, if I make what I want to make, the song is a success.

It has to be.

I can't keep living and dying by the industry's metrics.

As existential as it feels to look at those numbers, I can't play that game.

I have to change the metrics of success to, did I make what I want?

Did I put out and share what I want?

And did I share it in the way I wanted to share it?

And when I wanted to and all that.

That creative freedom and creative execution has to be my metric for success.

It feels like authenticity.

Yeah.

But the problem there is.

Like alignment is the new reward.

Yeah, congruence.

Yeah, exactly.

There's a massive problem with audience capture that people don't realize throwing red meat to your audience, making what you think that they want to hear, etc etc.

You know it's the, the youtuber or podcaster that just starts beef with anybody they can, because i love how you just said that, throwing red meat to your audience.

It's so, i love that.

It's so true.

It's the, the musician that just has reverse engineered the exact type of beat or sound that's popular at the moment and i'm gonna do it and then it'll work or whatever.

But the problem is there's many millions, gazillions of problems.

One of the really existential ones, if you do try and go down that route, is if the audience doesn't like what you did.

You have no route out because you don't know what you were trying to achieve, because it didn't come from you internally.

And you will fucking hate your audience because you said, I did this for you.

It's like.

It's like being the child of a tough parent not wanting to go and play violin, playing violin making chair and then your parent not being impressed.

And you're going, but I did it all for you.

I did it for your adoration.

I didn't do it because I wanted to.

And you will hate your audience.

You will hate your audience if you make something for them.

You will hate your audience if you just make stuff for them, no matter how successful it is or not.

But if you make something for them and then they don't love it, you're going to feel yeah, it's going to shoot you through the heart.

You go, I didn't even do it.

I didn't even do me.

I did this for you and you rejected me.

Yeah.

That's a Rick Rubin always talks about the audience has to come last, which I think is just so true.

And it's harder when there is an audience, kind of what we were saying earlier.

It's real easy to put the audience last when there isn't an audience.

I don't care.

It's like, no one cares.

You don't care.

Nobody cares.

That's it's man, that creative freedom.

That is maybe the biggest thing I miss about um, the come up and being like an up and coming artist is the expectation freedom that just comes with it.

You know, I know nobody's watching.

So I, I don't have a doubt in my mind that I'm making what I actually want to make back then.

But now, I think I'm making what I want to make.

But there's no way I can say that with full confidence, because even if it's subconscious, there is something that's saying you know people are going to hear this right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean the one advantage.

I think I have many disadvantages over the world of live music and recorded music.

One of the advantages is that, during a conversation, your ability to restrict what it is that you mean and what you say your, your ability to perform um does get eroded a little bit.

You know, if you're two hours into a conversation, you're usually sort of bits.

If you start to leak out like authenticity begins to bleed through, very difficult to keep the endurance race going.

Um, and if that's the case, it means well, I can probably be pretty reliably assured that what I'm saying is actually like pretty aligned with what I mean to say and what I feel.

And yeah, when you spend so long refining two in the morning, you're looking at this fucking kick drum for the thousandth time, like going like, cut off on it i don't know if i i don't know if i do i don't know if i like the sound of it maybe i should just sack this entire thing off but the the opportunity for you to obsess i that i've never even realized that before but that's a real blessing i think of this that really is one and done and we don't edit anything we never cut anything beautiful um which means that the tightrope walk of if you fucked it or if there was a long pause or if you forget a thing like that's in because it was part of the vibe yeah you're not supposed to difference between a track which is supposed to be as perfect as possible right you can have just played like one note like being okay we'll add that in and then being and then we'll add that in and that over time will construct a fucking riff the opposite would be one take all instruments single mic a lot of my best shit is accidents because I don't believe in accidents in the studio a lot of times are accidentally fill in this pattern of a hi-hat or i'll accidentally like i meant to click on that piano sound but i clicked on this plucked fucking sound from mandolin yeah and i went to do the melody i was like oh shit that's crazy you know so it's so many times that's where you kind of have to um start exercising your ability to surrender you know surrender to the moment surrender to the idea that Surrender to faith.

Really?

That's been a big challenge of mine.

Hey, in general, I've had to do that at my shows.

You know cause, doing the show sober right before I go on stage, the last thing I have to do, the obligation that I have, is to commit to surrendering.

It's going to be out of my control once I'm up there.

You know, I don't know if this is a good crowd, bad crowd.

They're going to.

If the mic's going to fucking go out, my ears are going to go out.

But I got to surrender because when I start feeling like what's about to be out there, now I'm in my head.

I got to get in my body.

But to get in my body, my thoughts and my brain has to surrender to the concept of faith.

But faith is difficult for me because I don't trust anyone more than I trust myself.

And that's real tough, because I micromanage fucking everything, because I would rather be the reason why something fucks up than you, because at least you know what.

I took the last shot, you know.

But that's it's not collaborative, you know.

It doesn't curate or foster any trust with co-workers, you know, because it just makes them feel incompetent.

So you don't trust that i can do my job.

No, i do.

I think i just do it better.

Yeah, but like that used to be the mentality.

That's the any solopreneur that's ripped a project off the launch pad themselves.

Yeah.

You did do everything.

And it's still that delusional self-belief that I can do that.

Because again, it also comes from knowing I was not the most talented out the gate, that I had to work and bust my ass and spend so much time in the studio to just even get my shit done.

To a level where it could be enjoyed by a shit ton of people.

So I look at any other Endeavor the same.

I'm like, if I spend enough time, I do think I could get good at that.

I just do because I this didn't come easy.

Now, if this came easy to me I think I would Not.

I would just not understand the grind of getting good at something, of developing the skill.

I know that I have what it takes to commit to something and build a skill.

But sometimes again, it's like you're and my friends have told me this like you're downplaying how talented you were, though.

You did have talent.

You know?

It sounds more romantic to say that you had nothing.

But then when I look at it from a logical POV, I'm like, if you go play, if 15 year old me played his beats for 33 year old me now, I would genuinely think he's not going to make it.

That's why when people play me their music, I'm like, what do you want me to say?

Because I should have no authority or control or influence on your decision to keep going or not going.

Because I would tell myself his shit sucked.

I would have told me to stop, you know?

Um, i don't know.

I just i think that's what's kind of giving me the audacity to think i could write a book or i could act.

I could go play basketball in vietnam because, why not?

I fucking became an artist and i was trash, you know.

Yeah russ, ladies and gentlemen dude, you're awesome.

Thank you, man.

Where should people go?

What can they expect next?

Um, what do i have next?

More music to combat the anxiety i have of being forgotten.

Yeah yeah yeah, um Music.

I got a movie coming out in hopefully like in the spring of next year, which is exciting.

Congratulations.

Yeah.

Just catch me spiraling on social media.

Fuck yeah.

Thanks, man.

This was incredible.

I appreciate you having me.

Seriously.

If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom reading list.

It is 100 books that you should read before you die.

The most interesting, life-changing and impactful books I've ever read, with descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them.

And you can get it right now for free by going to chriswillx.com slash books.

That's chriswillx.com slash books.

[성공의 역설: 목표 달성 후 마주하는 공허함과 새로운 동력 찾기]-[#1046 - Russ - Can Ambitious People Ever Have Balance?]

📋 Summary

성공의 역설: 목표 너머의 삶을 어떻게 살 것인가

1. 쫓던 미래가 현재가 될 때: 방향성 모호함의 공포

2. 내면의 풍경으로의 전환

3. 부모와 자녀: 부모 귀속 오류(Parental Attribution Error)

4. 성공은 목표가 아닌 과정이다

5. 진지함과 취약성의 용기

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[성공의 역설: 목표 달성 후 마주하는 공허함과 새로운 동력 찾기]-[#1046 - Russ - Can Ambitious People Ever Have Balance?]

📋 Summary

성공의 역설: 목표 너머의 삶을 어떻게 살 것인가

1. 쫓던 미래가 현재가 될 때: 방향성 모호함의 공포

2. 내면의 풍경으로의 전환

3. 부모와 자녀: 부모 귀속 오류(Parental Attribution Error)

4. 성공은 목표가 아닌 과정이다

5. 진지함과 취약성의 용기

ListenLeap으로 딥러닝 학습

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

ListenLeap이 실제 문맥에서 학습하도록 이끌어줌