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Wait, what?
Wait, what exactly?
That's the proper response.
I'm Angela Duckworth.
I'm Steven Dubner.
And you're listening to No Stupid Questions.
Today on the show, what's so bad about nepotism?
You think I want to put on my college resume that I worked for my father?
Steven, we have an email from someone named John, and it starts off with hi.
Exclamation point.
Are you hi?
No, I'm just trying to get your attention over here.
Attention granted.
Hi, I was recently thinking about how widespread nepotism is in the modern world.
And I started wondering whether or not there's actually some data to suggest that it is bad.
We talk a lot about how unfair it is that people who are less qualified get certain positions.
But perhaps the trust and ease of communication that comes with someone being a family member
or a friend is also important.
When I try to imagine myself in a position of power, I also see myself hiring my friends
precisely because of that.
Steven, nepotism is one of those words that I think I know what it means, but I'm not 100% sure.
Here's literally a dictionary definition.
This is from the OED.
Nepotism, a noun, the showing of special favor or unfair preference to a relative
in conferring a position, job, privilege, et cetera.
And then some people would say that cronyism is essentially mixed in with nepotism.
Cronyism meaning the most benign form would be the appointment of friends and the less benign
would be colluding to make profit by not only appointing a friend or contact, but benefiting
financially from that.
We should also say that nepotism is not illegal.
I'm looking at a law firm that specializes in employment law.
They write nepotism is the practice of giving jobs or favorable treatment to friends and family
members.
Nepotism in and of itself is not illegal.
A company owner is allowed to hire a daughter, son, sibling, friend, blah, blah, blah,
even if that person is not the most qualified for the job.
In fact, hiring and promoting family is an extremely common employment practice
dating back to the beginning of employment.
And it's completely legal.
It is legal, but I do think that in the institutional world, it's become much more
taboo over the past 50 years.
At least an ethical violation, if not a legal one.
Yeah.
Like guess who's the product manager?
My son.
Yay.
So you think about what's the ultimate nepotistic system is royalty, right?
Like the royal family.
But what John's question really made me think about is about Russia right now.
And I don't mean to make this too big a tangent on Putin and Russia and Ukraine at the moment,
but you know, Russian history over the past 150 years has been wild to say the least.
We all know about the revolution and the Bolsheviks and on and on and on.
But when Alexander the third, was he blown up?
I think he was blown up, but then his son became the last czar.
This is Nicholas the second and Nicholas the second, according to one account that I've read
when his father died.
One of the first things he said is I am not prepared to be a czar.
I never wanted to become one.
I know nothing of the business of ruling.
I have no idea of even how to talk to the ministers.
So if one wanted to do a psycho political dissection of the state of Russia over the
past 100, 150 years, that would be a very interesting inflection point at which to say,
I wonder what would have happened had there been a different category of leadership in that country?
I wonder if nepotism and royalty and passing a position on to a family member
or even hiring someone at a firm because they're related to you or friends with you
is a very good idea at just a very basic level of logic.
Don't you think that people like you and I would almost always say that the answer to that is no?
Somebody who's grown up in a democracy and has been raised to think that judging people by
the merits of their skills is better than their last name or their connections.
I hadn't really thought about political systems when John's question came through.
I was thinking about businesses, universities, and legacies being admitted to Ivy League schools.
In other words, this is about any political or social structure where somebody has power
and then there's a choice about who's going to come next.
For those who don't know, legacy is the word that universities and colleges use to define
the offspring of someone who graduated from that institution.
Interesting term, by the way, kind of euphemistic.
If you talk to a college president or an admissions officer or a board and they're
being candid with you, in other words, if you talk to them off the record, which I've done
in part because we recently did a Freakonomics radio series on college and the off the record
conversations are a little bit different, the reason that there are so many slots reserved
for legacies is because it's all about the money, although this is changing to some degree.
Yeah, in the wake of Varsity Blues.
Varsity Blues was full of parents who didn't have the legacy connection and they were trying to
shortcut it. Lori Laughlin and her husband Massimo Giannulli paid a half million dollars
to help get their two daughters into USC where they applied under the guise of being rowers
on a crew team. And USC happens to have, not surprisingly, a really good crew team.
These young women not only were not that caliber of rowers, but they didn't participate in the
sport at all. So half a million dollars, a little bit of lying, a little bit of bribing the coaches
and so on. Why? In part, because the legacy system makes it really hard to get into some
of the most exclusive schools, because those are the families that are contributors and
the offspring of a legacy is likely to contribute just the way the legacy generation did and so on.
So by admitting a son or daughter of an alum, basically you're saying that you're
increasing the expected donation of that family. Not only expected, but already in hand. In other
words, if you look at the data on what legacy families give to the university before the
application goes in. I mean, when I first heard of this, it blew me away. It seems unnatural,
but I've learned it's very common. There are parents who graduated from fill in the blank,
rhymes with Farvard. There are parents who have graduated from Farvard, let's say 20 years earlier,
who start giving to the university in a very thoughtful and patterned way from the time that
their child is, let's say, minus six months. Strategic maybe for the thoughtful, but I guess
I see your point. So by the time that their kid is ready to apply, it's like, wow, they've given a
half million dollars. Then there are other instances. I believe Jared Kushner was a case where
the money was given kind of all at once. And you see this with a lot of really wealthy applicants.
Here's a box of money and we'd like our son or daughter to attend your fine university.
But wait, if the money is given prior, then how does that benefit the university? Because you could
turn down that legacy, but you already have the half million dollars that's been accumulated.
What is the risk exactly? We can't exactly go to the New York Times and say indignantly,
I can't believe that my legacy daughter didn't get in to Farvard.
In fact, most people would say good. Another point here is that things are changing
and maybe it's varsity blues and maybe it would have happened for other reasons. I certainly
think there's more awareness and debate about equality, diversity, equity and inclusion right
now than there was four or five years ago. It definitely is changing a little bit,
partly because, and this was part of what we covered in the Freakonomics Radio series as well.
The most elite schools tend to not expand their enrollment very much. They like to keep their
populations the size they are. And there are a lot of reasons for that, but one is in order to
preserve exclusivity and prestige. You don't think it's because they don't have enough dorm space
and classroom space? Because that's my understanding, but maybe it's because I work
at a university, but that's what I'm told. That is a very compelling argument that some
schools do make. Although, you know, Stanford has a lot of room. Duke has a lot of space.
Columbia actually has been expanding their classroom. They built this whole
north campus about 10 or 12 blocks north of the main campus, but mostly the Ivies haven't grown
much in about 30 or 40 years. So if you do want to make your student body more diverse, then yeah,
at some point you're going to have to say, you know, the eighth generation of this family can
only have one slot and not two slots. But it makes me think, isn't the whole act of becoming a parent
an exercise in nepotism? When you have a kid, aren't you going to put every fiber of yourself
into the betterment of that particular kid as opposed to all the other kids around? Isn't
that just the way we're wired? Yes, I was talking to Dana Suskind, who we both know.
She is a pediatric surgeon and she wrote this book called Parent Nations about what we have to do
as a society to take care of all children. And it's very much about the kids who are overlooked,
the kids who don't have advantages. And Dana wrote a book prior to that called 30 Million Words.
And that also had some things to say about good parenting, but that one was more easily digested
by a parent as like, these are the things that I need to do for my kid. The book seemed to have so
much warmer a reception than Parent Nation. And I was saying to Dana, I wish I could say that I
cared as much about all children as I do about my children. But I think like most parents, there is
this pretty biased way of putting my kids first. And maybe that's what she's experiencing with her
second book. It is evolutionarily wired. I will say in defense of the second book,
which I think is really good, Parent Nation, it is really a policy book more than a behavioral
family book. So I think the intended audience is also a little bit different. But the fact that
it's such a hard argument to make really made me take a step back and say, wow, she's pointing to
something really important here. We don't really care about other people's children very much.
We say we care, especially if you believe in revealed preference, right? What are the core
values of our society if this is the way we act? I will say this. My daughter, who's 20 now,
she talks about nepotism a lot. Anya talks about nepotism? Yeah. When you grow up in a place like
New York, it's pretty easy to notice the advantages that accrue to the offspring of families who have
money, who have power, who have leverage, and that it's much, much easier if you have all those
resources. And look, my family were very fortunate. Right. She's on the advantage side of the equation.
And she's come to think that nepotism is just super sleazy. So I'll give you an example.
She'll help me out on research for like this show or for Freakonomics Radio. I'll say, hey,
I want to talk about this or that. If you have a couple hours, why don't you do some reading for
me and a little research? And she does. And honestly, I love it. I love working with her.
I think she's really good at it. And so I thought out of fairness, I should name her in the credits
on the show when she does contribute. And she was kind of split on that. But then there was a time
when I was looking to hire a summer intern and I thought, you know, Anya would be really good
because first of all, I can really control her hours. I can make sure that she works 18 hours
a day, which I can't really do with all the other interns. And she was like, there is no way I'm
going to do that. And I said, why not? Would I be that terrible to work? She said, no,
the work would be really fun. There's no way I'm going to spend my summer doing work that I can't
put on my resume. I'm going to be a college junior. And I said, why can't you put it on
your college resume? She says, you think I want to put on my college resume that I worked for my
father? That is the worst thing I could ever do. And I have to say, that is not something I think
a teenager one or two or three generations ago would have said. Yeah, that's a change.
I think so because everyone is more concerned with not only actual fairness,
but the appearance of fairness. And I think that's a good thing. Do you think that's a good thing?
I think it is definitely a good thing to be concerned with fairness. The part where you
said it's a good thing to be concerned with the appearance of fairness. It's like annoying to me
sometimes virtue signaling in general. But I guess you could make the argument that because
we have to look like we're fair, sometimes we're just forced into being fair so that we don't
look bad. I hadn't thought about how this generation is thinking about it in ways that
are a little more enlightened than our generation. But I do think it is still pervasive, even if
there is more sensitivity to being more inclusive. It's partly because social networks by their
nature are very dense and interconnected. And by that, I mean, who do I know? Oh, I know Steven.
Steven also knows Steve Levitt. But I also know Steve Levitt. And by the way, Steve Levitt knows
John List. But I also know John List. And John List is married to Dana Susskind. My point is,
this idea that we milk our own social networks, like we need a collaborator who knows how to do
structural equation modeling. I only have my social network. So I think it's a bigger question,
like how would you really escape the gravitational pull of nepotism?
It makes me think of a paper by Sophie Calder Wang. It's called diversity and performance in
entrepreneurial teams. And we looked at this paper in a Freakonomics radio episode that was
called, how much does discrimination hurt the economy? This is really about a flip side of
nepotism or something that feeds into or maybe out of nepotism is an exclusion. If you are
working with or promoting the people that you already know and like, who are you excluding?
And so this paper was really interesting. It was based on an experiment that was carried out
at Harvard Business School, where there was a class that was about starting up a small company.
And they put students together to do this entrepreneurial exercise. And in some cases,
the groups were formed randomly by algorithm. And so the people would not form their own groups,
they were put together with people who were inherently often unlike them, either different
gender, different race, different background, different country of origin, and so on.
And then in other cases, they let people form their own groups. Essentially, they found
that the randomly assigned groups performed worse than the others. There was about a 15%
degradation in their performance. But when people were allowed to choose on their own,
the diverse teams performed very well. The problem lies with what she called forced diversity,
because there, you're being put with people that you don't know, and that you don't have any
background with social network and so on. So that would be an argument, I guess, in favor of what
John is calling nepotism, and what you're calling strong networks, right?
Well, is the finding of a study that when you do choose on your own who to work with,
and it's a diverse set of people, then you perform better?
If I remember correctly, the diversity itself was not really much of a factor.
It's just the choosing of your own team. Yeah.
Look, I don't think that this bias that we have towards the people that we already know is ever
going to go away in part because if you had to form a team in the next six months, you could not
interview all of the people on the planet for your team. It's not possible. But I do think
there's got to be a way to incentivize looking beyond the social network.
And that's hard, don't you think?
I think it is hard. And I'm actually looking to recruit somebody to work with me. You know,
where does my thought process go? I'm like, Oh, I'll ask my friend, Shalini, if she knows anybody.
I'll ask this other friend, your Rolodex is your Rolodex. But I guess the question is,
how would you work against that?
I will say this. In startups, it's all like who I know and who I trust, right?
Is that right? I guess so, because they're like really small teams.
Yeah. And also it tends to be the people that you went to school with or some pre-existing network.
But once you get into big corporate hiring, I think American firms in particular take really
seriously the appearance of nepotism. I will say there is some interesting economic literature
about firms that are run by X person and then taken over by X person's offspring. In fact,
one of the first big pieces of Freakonomics Radio we did, we called the Church of Cyanology,
meaning science, like the offspring of people who run firms.
Oh, S-C-I-O-N.
Yeah.
It's like succession, right?
It is like succession. Are any of those people remotely
qualified to be the best next leader of that firm?
Not on succession anyway.
So, okay, if we wanted to say a few words in support of nepotism, let's say that you,
Angie, started a company. Let's say you make beer, okay?
Okay.
You love beer.
Let's say I do.
And you're really good at making beer.
All right.
And then you're getting on in your years and you say, hey, I'm so grateful and fortunate that this
company has succeeded. And I have a few options here. What I can do, I can sell to a bigger
company. I can maybe go public. But, you know, if you had a child or maybe a niece or nephew
who also loved beer or just wanted to make a lot of money making beer, you might think, oh,
well, they should be the next CEO. So I'll give you an example. There are two such beer
families, which I'm familiar. One is the Yingling family in Pennsylvania. They're a German family.
We have a lot of Yingling in our refrigerator, believe it or not.
Oh, you do. Why is that?
Because I live in Pennsylvania and Jason really likes Yingling.
So I wonder if Jason knows the story of who makes his Yingling. The current owners of Yingling were
the fifth or sixth generation of the Yingling family who had come to America. Interestingly,
the one that came to America, if I recall, to make beer here was from this German beer-making
family. And he was like the younger brother or something who couldn't break into the family
business back in Germany and said, damn it, I'm going to America.
Very American story.
And they were really successful. And if you ask why, you'd say, well, these are people who
cared about the business, who knew the business very well, who understood the processes and
traditions. So that could be a really good argument for promoting someone from within the
family. On the other hand, there's another beer called Budweiser.
Heard of that.
Very similar. German family came over. I think the first one was an Anheuser, but then it got to be
a Bush. And then there was another Bush and another Bush. And I think the guy who was running it up
until roughly the 1990s or so was Augustus Bush, the third, I believe they called him the third.
Like, hey, pass the salt, the third.
I don't know if the people who were eating at his dinner table called him that,
but generally he was known as the third. And his son was known as, can you guess?
I'm going to go with the fourth.
Excellent guess.
That's why they pay me the big bucks.
And Augustus Bush, the fourth, his ultimate reign over the company was, I believe the technical term
is a show. There was all kinds of bad behavior. Corporate behavior was not so good. Personal
behavior was not so good. He kind of went down in flames and the company ultimately was bought out
by a firm called Inbev. Anyway, that was a case where they just kept passing the company on to
the next son, the next son, the next son, and it blew up. The Yinglings, however, are one where
they kept passing on to the next son, next son, and it's still thriving. So as in any of these
stories, it's never all or nothing.
Still to come on No Stupid Questions, Stephen and Angela discuss a system where meritocracy
and nepotism successfully coexist. Unlike, let's say, Anheuser-Busch, where I'm just going to give
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Before we return to Stephen and Angela's conversation about nepotism, let's hear some
of your thoughts on the subject. We asked listeners to share their experiences with nepotism. Here's
what you said. Hi, my name is Sean. I'm from New York. And when I was 13, my uncle hired me to work
at his hot dog stand. I ended up selling a total of one hot dog to my mom and I ate seven hot dogs.
So not super successful. Once upon a time, I did work at a small company where the wife and children
of the owner were employees. He was a real taskmaster and drove some of the employees to tears,
but not as family members. They lived right up above the office and they just let it run off
their backs. I don't think the problem was nepotism so much as poor management skills.
Hello, Stephen and Angela. I'm Dan Perrin from Melbourne, Florida. When my dad was a kid,
my aunt was in the spelling bee and the word she got was nepotism, which she then proceeded to
spell incorrectly and was kicked out of the spelling bee, to which my dad consoling her
afterwards said, well, don't worry, you can always work for dad. That was, respectively,
Sean Gleason, Steve Case and Dan Perrin. Thanks to them and to everyone who sent us their thoughts.
Now back to Stephen and Angela's conversation about the consequences of keeping it in the family.
If you want to look at family firms generally and what happens once the next generation takes over,
there are a few economists who have studied this. One is Antoinette Shore,
another is Francisco Perez-Gonzalez. When they look at what happens when a firm goes from the
parent to the offspring, Antoinette Shore found that there were drops of between 10 and 20%
of profitability. So nepotism, on average, is expensive. Now you might think, wait a minute,
maybe they're becoming less profitable, but maybe somehow if your shares are trading publicly,
maybe make up for it in share price. But then this other study by Francisco Perez-Gonzalez
looked at what happens when a publicly traded company is handed over from the founder or the
parent to the heir. And in that case, there's this drop in the stock price of about 10 to 15%. So
that looks pretty bad. Now there's an interesting wrinkle here. Perez-Gonzalez found that the
performance of family CEOs was basically explained by the group of family CEOs that did not attend
a good college. Interesting. In about 40% of the cases in his sample, the person who took over
the company did not attend college inside the top something like 200, even though they're coming
from a wealthy family. What kind of story do you concoct in your head when you hear those numbers?
Well, I'm thinking about regression to the mean. The basic idea with regression to the mean is that
when you have lots of tries at something that if the first try is above the mean for you,
you could make a prediction that the second one will go back toward the mean. You know,
you told me recently, Stephen, that you had a PR for golf. It was a really good game for you.
It was above your mean. What's the likelihood that you're going to have as good a score
in your next golf game? Minus one is the likelihood. It's not likely. And it goes in both directions,
by the way. So if you have a really bad game, you're likely to regress to your mean as well.
So applied to nepotism, if you have an outlier CEO who's just amazing, what is the probability
that when you shuffle the genetic and experiential deck and you get another person that is their
offspring, what is the likelihood that person's going to be also an outlier CEO? Well, regression
to the mean would say not knowing anything else, not very likely. Okay, I have to say that is a
great explanation. I also would argue that your explanation is more generous than my explanation
by a factor of about 10. Well, mine is if you are the offspring of a person who is built and is
running a big successful company and you go to college and you can't get into a top 200 college,
despite the advantages that you have, you must not be a very diligent person. You probably had
access to tutoring and private schools. And nevertheless, I mean, I'm not saying that
everybody should want to go to a selective school, but one could argue that in that demographic,
most young people are trying to go there. Right. So here's someone who has those advantages,
who doesn't have it together enough to go to a decent school. And yet the parent still thinks
that they should be running the company. I think that's true. That's arguably in addition to
regression to the mean, which is always operating for everything.
Okay. I have a riddle for you that to me is one of the most interesting riddles about nepotism.
It's a nepotism riddle. And it's maybe not a long list. So if you look around the world,
in some countries, you'll find that founders of companies almost always hand off the business to
their offspring, in part because they don't have enough structure to, let's say, take a company
public or they don't have a tradition of professional management. So there are many
different circumstances. But if you look around the world at countries that have successful firms,
you'll find that family firms in those countries almost always perform worse over the long run
than firms that bring in professional management. But there's one country where family firms do
not just okay, but quite well. Can you name what that country might be?
A country where nepotism works.
It's a country where family firms are at least as successful as non-family firms.
I'll give you a really good hint because there aren't that many countries that start with a J,
but it does start with a J.
Japan?
It is Japan. Very good. Now, Japan has had an unbelievable culture and history of
entrepreneurship and companies of all different sorts. But can you think of another reason why
Japan might be particularly good?
I have two thoughts. In Japan, you have a very conscientious culture. So maybe when you have
a handing of the baton to a daughter or son because the whole darn country is so conscientious,
hardworking, dependable, attentive to detail, et cetera, that they do at least as well because
anyone tasked at that responsibility would take it really seriously.
Nice theory.
And they really are. They're incredibly conscientious, though they rate themselves
as lower in conscientiousness because they are so conscientious.
That is so Japanese.
So Japanese, but maybe so human, right? The higher your standards are, the harder they
are to reach. The second thing I was wondering about, I've heard that the compensation,
the salaries of executives in Japan is very different from, for example, the United States
and other parts of the world. You don't have CEOs in Japan who make 100X the least paid person.
It's much tighter. And I guess in an American system, maybe I can recruit any hotshot and
pay them an obscene amount of money and maybe you just don't have that dynamic. But I have no idea.
Those are such good thoughts, except I guess I'm going to say that they're wrong.
Okay. Minus two. My final exam is being graded.
Let me put it this way. What you just described, I think, was very sensible and
may very well contribute to the general story of why firms in Japan may be successful and maybe
even family firms as well. But that is not the factor that accounts for the success of family
firms in Japan. There has been a study. This is by a scholar named Vikasmar Otra. He's a finance
professor. And he had seen that firms that hand off the running of the firm to the offspring,
like I said, in most countries do worse. And even in Japan, they often do worse, but there was one
circumstance in which they did better. So I'll give you another clue. Do you know anything about
adoption in Japan? I know nothing about adoption in Japan. What would you say if I told you that
roughly 99% of all adoptions in Japan are not babies or even children? Wait, what? Wait, what?
Exactly. That's the proper response. What would you say if I told you that roughly 90% of adoptions
in Japan are not only not babies or children, but they are 25 to 35 year old adults. Families in
Japan adopt adult children. Is that what you're saying? To be the CEOs of their companies. Are
you kidding? I'm not kidding. This is a thing. Why do they do that? They say we're a family firm.
We've been a family firm for X generations, one generation, five generations, whatever.
But unlike, let's say, Anheuser-Busch, where I'm just going to give the company over to this guy
who drives his car 180 miles an hour. My good-for-nothing cyan. I think we should actually
turn it over to somebody who's going to be a good manager. And that could very well be someone who's
been working at this firm since they got out of college and is now really ready to take over the
company. But we are a family firm. So it's meritocratic nepotism. It's so bizarre. I wonder
if you get like a birthday party with it and all the other trappings of family. When I learned about
this and I interviewed Vikas Mirocha, he gave some examples. Suzuki, the current chairman, was an
adopted son. And I asked him what share of family firms in Japan that do hand off to a family member
hand off to an adopted family member. And he said it was in about 20 percent of succession
events. Wow. So it's not that everybody wants to adopt their next leader. But then I asked him,
if you subtract that 20 percent from the economy, how would family firms do versus the rest? And he
said that was pretty much all of it. That would lower them way back down to where we would expect
them to be. So I think we have a solution for nepotism, which is that we basically have a
meritocratic system, but we add back the family part in there. That's good. In other words,
if I really want someone beloved to me to take over Freakonomics Radio eventually, and I know
that my kids are not interested, I should probably consider adopting someone like Angela Duckworth,
maybe. I guess that could work. I have some other things going on here, but in principle, I am with
you. No Stupid Questions is produced by me, Rebecca Lee Douglas. Before we move on to the fact check,
we'd like to give listener John, our question asker, the last word. As a European, your college
admissions system sounds wild. Oh, I probably shouldn't swear. I cannot imagine something like
this happening here. I found the Japanese system that they talked about just crazy.
And now here's a fact check of today's conversation. In the first half of the show,
Stephen says he thinks Russian Emperor Alexander III died by being blown up. This is incorrect.
His cause of death was actually nephritis, or kidney disease. However, his father,
Alexander II, was indeed blown up. After surviving multiple assassination attempts,
the emperor was ultimately killed by a bombing carried out by Russian revolutionaries in 1881.
Later, Stephen says that the varsity blues scandal included parents who didn't have legacy
connections. But designer Massimo Giannulli did actually attend University of Southern California,
the school that he and his wife, actress Lori Loughlin, deceived into admitting their two
daughters. However, it is true that Giannulli never graduated from USC. He dropped out in 1987
to pursue a career in fashion. Next, Stephen says that colleges reserve so many slots for legacies
in order to encourage alumni to donate money. However, research from the Public Policy Research
Institute, the Century Foundation, found that after controlling for wealth, there was no
statistically significant evidence that legacy policies made alumni more likely to donate.
Also, Stephen says that Anheuser-Busch Brewing Company started with an Anheuser but was inherited
by a Busch. The company actually originated in 1852 with German-American brewer, George
Schneider. German soap manufacturer Everhard Anheuser purchased it in 1860. Anheuser's
daughter married Adolphus Busch, who later became a co-owner of the company.
Finally, while August Busch IV did experience quite a few legal and personal troubles while
helming Budweiser, his tenure wasn't a complete s*** show. As CEO, he led the famous Budweiser
Frogs advertising campaign. In 1996, the year after the ads launched, Anheuser-Busch stocks rose by
27% and in 1998, the company experienced its best ever sales year. That's it for the Fact Check.
Coming up next week on No Stupid Questions,
a listener asks Stephen and Angela about the ethics of paying to use a public bathroom.
That's next week on No Stupid Questions. For that episode, we want to hear your own washroom stories.
Tell us about the best and the worst public restrooms that you've visited,
and let us know how you think we could improve these spaces in general. To share your thoughts,
send a voice memo to NSQ at Freakonomics.com with the subject line, Public Restroom. Make sure to
record in a quiet indoor space with your mouth close to the phone, and please keep your thoughts
to under a minute. No Stupid Questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which also
includes Freakonomics Radio, People I Mostly Admire, Freakonomics MD, and Off Leash. All our
shows are produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. This show was mixed by Elinor Osborn. We had help
on this episode from Lirik Boudich and Jacob Clemente. Our staff also includes Neil Carruth,
Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Morgan Levy, Zach Lipinski, Julie Kanfer, Ryan Kelly,
Jasmine Clinger, Emma Terrell, and Alina Coleman. Our theme song is And She Was by Talking Heads.
Special thanks to David Byrne and Warner Chapel Music. If you'd like to listen to the show ad
free, subscribe to Stitcher Premium. You can follow us on Twitter at NSQ underscore show,
and on Facebook at NSQ show. If you have a question for a future episode, please email it
to NSQ at Freakonomics.com. To learn more or to read episode transcripts, visit Freakonomics.com
slash NSQ. Thanks for listening. Are you a whistler? I am a whistler. I'm told that I whistle
all the time, even when I shouldn't. Like at the opera? I don't whistle at the opera.
The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything. Stitcher.
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