Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret.
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I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Not Morbid.
This is us talking about your magic with Michelle T. Oh, my God.
I actually remember the day that your magic dropped.
I got like a alert on Spotify. And I started listening because I will listen to anything Michelle T does.
And I was like, oh, I have found my home. your magic is a podcast hosted by author michelle t and every episode explores contemporary spirituality and magic with like lots of humor and heart.
Michelle's hilarious. they read their guest's tarot.
I actually got the pleasure of having Michelle read me my tarot cards and it was...
One of the coolest experiences that I've ever had, but there's also been guests like Japanese breakfast, Phoebe Bridgers, who I love. and so many other people.
And then there's also like a DIY spell or ritual at the end of the episode that anyone can do.
But in this episode that we're going to give you a little preview of, the host Michelle T. dives deep into Satanism. and the Satanic Church and the Satanic Temple and explores what it actually looks like to worship Satan Because you guys know we have talked about Satanism.
We've talked about satanism before on this show.
And I feel like – and I know you feel this way too –
People have the totally wrong idea about Satanism.
Absolutely. they do we're always trying to make sure people understand what it's really about and kind of remove it from the caricature that has been drawn of it forever including like the satanic panic kind of crap and all that stuff it's not that And that's exactly what this episode is going to let you in on.
It's going to give you the cold hard facts about it.
Yeah, Michelle does a really great job breaking it down and explaining it.
This is actually one of my favorite episodes. of your magic so far and that's saying a lot because they're pretty much all my favorite And Michelle is a Massachusetts native, so obviously we are obsessed. we love a fellow massachusetts and so without further ado here you go you're going to enjoy the shit out of this And you know what?
If you like the episode, you can find the podcast only on Spotify.
Or if you want to support them... which I think you should.
They're awesome. We do. Support them at patreon.com slash thisisyourmagic.
And we do. We support them on Patreon. Lots of cool stuff. perks you can also find them on instagram and twitter at this is your magic do it This podcast rules.
Yay. Welcome to Your Magic. I'm Michelle T, and today we're doing something a little different on the pod.
While we haven't abandoned our original format, because I love chatting with and reading cards for artists I'm a fan of, We are going to be bringing you some episodes that instead take a deeper dive into some of the magical concepts and practices that I'm intrigued with. like Aleister Crowley's The Lema Tradition, The Veneration of Saints, Psychic Medium's Some Moon Magic,
I'm also interested in looking at how magic practitioners navigate the very non-magical aspects of life on Earth. whether it's battling internet scammers or fighting to keep abortion legal.
And we're debuting our new themed episodes today with a focus on the Dark Lord himself, Satan, and those who love him.
Stay with us. Most of us know enough about Satanists to know what they're not.
Like the accused witches of 17th century Salem, they too are not boiling babies in cauldrons or selling their souls at the crossroads.
Some of us remember the satanic panic of the 1980s.
We know that the cavalcade of talk show guests insisting that Teenaged heshers with pentagrams inked on their stone-washed denim were making human sacrifice in your backyard. were not only not true, it had consequences.
Like the West Memphis Three, right? that trio of goth-hesher teens from Arkansas who spent most of their lives in prison for murders they didn't commit.
So we know actual practicing Satanists are not like murderers.
But what are they? Who are they? What do they practice and what do they believe?
In my explorations, I've found that there are three styles of contemporary Satanism being practiced today.
First, atheistic Satanists. Then there are your theistic Satanists.
And finally, my personal fave, satanic witches.
Let's start with the atheistic Satanists.
They don't really believe in Satan. They're atheists.
However, these folks have found that the devil and all he represents wild sexuality, skepticism, hedonism, science, questioning authority, personal liberation, It all syncs up nicely with their own values and comes with a ready-made, eternally goth metal aesthetic Plus the added bonus of messing with the church, which can be fun, especially for those like myself who've survived a childhood of non-consensual Jesus.
Entities like the Satanic Temple use Satan as a rallying cry to fight against Christian forces that are working to erode the separation of church and state in America.
Theistic Satanists, despite their name, don't really believe in Satan either. but they do believe in the power of ritual, both psychologically and to connect to the mysterious energies of our universe.
These folks do engage in ceremonial magic in black masses and other private practices. and they're more likely to be found hailing Satan in the privacy of their own homes. rather than before a statue of Baphomet they're fighting to erect in the town square.
That's a total satanic temple thing. And then there are the satanic witches.
Far less organized than the atheists who can gather under the auspices of the temple, Or the theistics, who find like-minded ritualists at the Church of Satan.
Satanic witches are on their own, finding one another on the internet, if at all.
Unlike the other Satanists, Satanic witches do believe in Satan, and they seek a relationship with the Dark Lord, as well as with his many demons. and sometimes they get it.
I found three practicing Satanists, one of each ilk, all of whom generously agreed to talk to me about what the devil means to them.
So my name is Seth Katz. My pronouns are he, they, or she in the gay way, she in the way that men refer to boats. and I identify as an atheistic Satanist.
Atheistic Satanist does sound like a contradiction in terms.
What is it? I don't worship Satan or any god, nor do I believe that Satan exists as some god-like entity.
I believe that Satan is this representation of concepts like knowledge, power, freedom, autonomy. versus this Judeo-Christian God that represents a lot of patriarchal stifling ideals. and is spoken and written about as being this kind of judgmental, almost hoarder and keeper of love and respect and knowledge that one must earn.
Yeah, the Judeo-Christian God definitely has a lot of classic, toxic masculinity.
Not really an appropriate role model for our day and age.
But Satan? Very interesting. I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I think a lot of young queers, a lot of young punks sort of come to Satanism in this sort of like reclamation kind of way.
I mean, folks were referring to me and thinking of me as satanic in this kind of negative sense. for a long time because I am androgynous and alternative.
I remember once here in San Francisco, I was getting on the bus going to the Haight And I, on a good day, was somebody's 13-year-old brother, and I was wearing fishnets and a black dress.
And this guy pulls out a metal cross and he's like waving it at me.
Okay, this is wild because back in my youth, 1980s Boston, Massachusetts, I too was a bit of a spectacle on public transportation.
With my gigantic hairdo, black and snarled, and my black lipstick, my black lace dresses, and my blasphemous jewelry.
You know, you're not actually supposed to wear rosary beads, okay?
I attracted a lot of attention. The famously mouthy, famously Catholic citizens of Boston took one look at me and decided that I was obviously worshiping Satan.
And they wasted no time in like warding me off via basic harassment, the flinging of trash, and the occasional wad of spit.
When I came upon the Satanic Bible at Newberry Comics, I just had to poke my nose in it.
By that time, I was savvy enough to know that much of what the world insisted was bad was actually good.
And much of what was trumped as good was plainly corrupt.
A quick peek into the pages of the Satanic Bible confirmed this newish bad-is-good philosophy.
It seemed that Satan and I were in agreement about many things.
Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence, begins the nine satanic statements.
Well, teenaged alcoholic me could not agree more.
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates, it Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.
It's worth noting that all nine satanic statements end in exclamation points, making them more like the nine satanic vociferations as if they were written to be recited while pumping one's fist into the air.
Regardless, I was into it, and after purchasing the book, took to reading it publicly in the primary site of my teenage harassment, the Boston MBTA.
And guess what? It worked. Like a rope of garlic repelling vampires, the sight of me flagrantly clutching a satanic text a black clad book with a hot pink pentacle on the cover, it was too much for the regional Catholics.
Their ballsy confrontations turned to passive-aggressive whispers.
Instead of throwing trash, they threw condemnation and shade with their eyes and scowls.
Yes, they made faces at me and stage whispered so that I could hear what they thought of me, but I didn't care.
They could hate me all they wanted. I just didn't want to get my ass kicked.
I may have looked scary, but like most Goths, I was a crybaby weakling.
The suggestion that I maybe just might have an actual relationship with the Lord of Darkness, someone I didn't believe in, but the Christians did, made me untouchable to the more violent among them.
In my new cozy zone, of relative public safety i grew quite fond of the devil and did become in my way a bit of a satanist like seth katz Here's Seth again.
So it kind of started as like Bastion Satanism where I was like reclaiming it.
Satanism in the beginning as this sort of thing where it was like people are thinking I'm a witch and a Satanist anyway.
And then it kind of naturally evolved into getting more interested in it.
So I was reading from folks like Kristen Soleil, Jack Blackmore, folks were talking about Satanism as this sociopolitical concept, you know, as a performative concept.
The go-to organization for atheistic Satanists is the Satanic Temple.
Their hilarious but heartfelt and always a spectacle activism can be enjoyed in the documentary Hail Satan, which I really recommend.
I love the work they do. You know who may not love them so much?
Members of the Church of Satan. Though neither the church nor the temple really believe in the demonic entity known as Satan, I was told by a key member of the Church of Satan that Satanic temple members aren't real Satanists.
This isn't just the petty one-upmanship that plagues so many subcultures.
Well, okay, maybe it is. To Church of Satan members, being a Satanist means you are engaging in specific rituals meant if not to raise Lucifer, the church and the temple are in agreement that no such entity actually exists, than to use ritual for deep psychological growth and catharsis, and even to make contact with certain universal energies.
The Church of Satan is engaging in magic.
The Satanic Temple, however, conducts their ritual in public And it does seem that the intention is more theater, punking the church and scandalizing the squares.
Now, you call yourself a satanic priest.
No, because Satan is a god, too. Mm-hmm.
Well, what are you then, the dirty pope, or what? guess you could call me that if you want to say the black pope or the dirty pope or the advocate of for example the kingdom of night or darkness.
The Church of Satan is where the theistic Satanists gather, and it has a rather glamorous history, in my opinion.
Its charismatic founder was Anton LaVey, author of the Satanic Bible, lover of exclamation points.
He seems to have been born with a bald head, an iconic goatee, eyebrows that only grow more arched and sinister as he aged.
He founded the Church of Satan in 1966 at 6114 California Street in San Francisco. a single-family home painted black that was the headquarters of American Satanism until the patriarch died in the late 90s. and then the house was shortly thereafter demolished.
A real showman, LaVey had a pet lion and was often photographed mid-ritual, candles aflame in a hooded cape that provided him with both a widow's peak and a pair of devil horns.
Sometimes he wore a classic Catholic priest's outfit.
Sometimes he had a snake. Often there was a blonde woman in the picture with him.
One such bouffant top femme was the actress Jane Mansfield.
She'd met LeVay at some point after being kicked out of the San Francisco Film Festival. for going commando beneath her pink dress.
The two embarked upon a madcap romantic satanic affair LaVey anointed Mansfield the high priestess of the San Francisco Church of Satan and put a curse upon her ex-husband, Sam Brody.
Thank you. The Church of Satan has been around for almost 60 years, still thriving even without that charismatic figurehead.
I wanted to know exactly what they were up to, ritually speaking, and found a member who would speak to me.
My name is Bill M. I am a magister with the Church of Satan.
I've been a member of the Church of Satan and a Satanist for over 20 years.
Magisters are folks who have passed through four of the five stages of initiation in the Church of Satan.
So Bill is almost at the top. He also has a podcast, The Devil's Mischief on Radio Free Satan. and is a great person to explain to me what the Church of Satan, the first group to call themselves Satanists and have an actual religion called Satanism, is all about.
It's not Satan worship. It is Satanism. So it's embracing the life enriching things which have traditionally been given the devil's name.
Pride, lust, earthly success, rational self-interest, atheism, humor. nonconformity, science, personal passions, being selective about whom we love.
We feel that most religions have traditionally condemned these things as being shameful sins, but we take them as empowering ideals.
Listening to this, it's hard not to be just like, yep, I'm a Satanist.
Those are definitely my values. And I appreciate as a witch who regularly performs devotions to deities, even though I don't know that I actually believe in them. that the church honors ritual for ritual's sake, for the psychological power in performing them, and even, it seems, the aesthetic power of Satanism, that power I felt while reading the Satanic Bible in public all those years ago.
A lot of these hardcore atheists are really big into Star Wars or Star Trek. following a sports team and wearing the logo and chants and all that stuff.
I think all of this comes down to a very basic human need to ritualize.
I too am a basic human with this need to indulge in rituals, and listening to Bill describe what goes down in a satanic ceremony, I was struck by how similar it is to the probably amateur magic I'm doing on my own at home.
Like me, Satanists adopted ringing a bell to begin your ritual from any number of occult traditions.
Like most Western witches, the Satanists invoke the four elements, or four directions, though they call it the four quarters, attributing a demonic entity to each direction.
Satan from the south, Lucifer from the east, Belial from the north, and Leviathan from the west.
To bring the element of taste into the ritual, important for such a hedonistic tradition as Satanism, they drink from a chalice.
The bells and the invocations and the chalice swinging all serve to bring participants into that fantasy realm where emotions rise up and logic steps back.
Primed for drama, they begin the ritual conjugations.
In Satanism and in Satanic ritual, we have one of three different conjurations. conjuration of lust or compassion or destruction.
We incorporate the Enochian keys that have been used by golden done.
We have our own different translations of that that work for us.
Okay, the Enochian Keys deserve its own episode, and they might actually get one. but basically it's an occult language that was dictated to a couple of 16th century occultists from angelic beings, okay?
And as Lucifer himself is said to be a fallen angel, it does seem appropriate that the keys have been adopted for ritual by the Church of Satan.
But it gives me pause that a religion that professes to not literally believe in the supernatural does work with a supernatural alphabet. that was shared with an Elizabethan psychic by an otherworldly entity.
It is likely that the Satanists used the Enochian keys just to add another layer of esoteric drama to their rituals, but I found myself wanting to meet someone who like hangs out with actual satanic entities.
Maybe I'm damaged from coming of age during the satanic panic 1980s. but I do kind of like the idea of Satanists conjuring actual demons.
After looking around a bit, I found a legit Satanic witch.
My name is Salem. You know, I use they, them pronouns, hey, and identify as a satanic witch.
Salem was ignorant of the whole Jesus devil paradigm until they hit 10 or 11.
And then their non-religious parents got into religion with surprising fervor. speaking in tongues and praising the Christian God with little Salem along for the ride.
Salem's parents weren't just super enthusiastic holy rollers.
They were an exorcism duo, with mom casting out the demons, while dad read from the apocalyptic Book of Revelations.
With the sort of hypervigilance I imagine a pair of exorcists possess, Salem's parents began noticing something a bit ungodly about their child.
growing up, they've always kind of pinpoint this energy about me.
They've always been like, yeah, you're going to live so good for God and all this stuff.
But like, In the same breath, they would always condemn me.
You have the demon of homosexuality. You have the demon of... you know, this, that, and the third, you have a Jezebel spirit.
You know, what's actually kind of funny is that they're right.
Like they're right. Like I do have like a Jezebel spirit, but like that's what's always made me feel confident in myself.
But Salem's parents weren't only metaphorically correct about Salem's spirit.
The fact is, Salem did have demons, literally.
As they got older and allowed themselves to actually respond to their natural attraction to witchcraft, meditations revealed to them that Satan's minions have been by their side since childhood, shielding them from some of the damaging effects of their parents' toxic beliefs.
I actually feel like they were protecting me from Christianity instead of vice versa.
I felt like they were protecting me from a lot of the dogmatic things that I was being taught because it affected my mental health so bad.
I struggled with OCD You know, that type of brainwashing really, really fucks with you.
It really messes with you. I feel like the only demonic evil presence I had in my life were my parents' teachings and the demons that were around me were like, This one's ours.
You're specifically from hell. You're evil like us.
You're a little weird. Don't touch this person.
Satanism kept calling to Salem, with the devil using a famous tool for nabbing souls, pop culture.
I got like really into Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, right?
Which is about like, you know, satanic witches and stuff.
It's there I felt like my demon team, my spirit guys, they really wanted me to get into it because I would pause the show sometimes and be like, I'm going to take a break.
And they would press play and be like, actually, no, you're gonna keep watching this.
I'm the mother of demons. The dawn of doom.
I've always felt drawn to Lilith, right?
I'm Lilith, dear boy. And a lot of people have different interpretations for Lilith and who she is and if she's whether a demon or not, but she's the mother of darkness.
Talking to Lele Solis was like, I'm sending you basically two guardian demons to watch over you.
I was working at a Spencer's gift shop and they had a Demon Tarot deck and Usually you know what Teradex you feel being drawn to them, but this felt like a specific energy, like a specific person in that deck was like, no, you come here.
And I looked at it and I immediately knew who it was.
I just felt it. And so I got the deck. And from that point on, I could feel that demon sometimes, like, standing next to me and it wasn't menacing.
It wasn't scary. It was just kind of being like, hey, I'm here.
Through continued magical work, Salem has made contact with many other demons, including, quite possibly, the Lord of Them All.
I have gotten into contact with Lucifer very strongly, and there's a lot of different feelings and theories within what aspect of Satanism and cultism You practice if Lucifer and Satan are the same.
Are they different? Are they different channels of each other?
He's been a really beautiful, very, I want to say cinematic, because the way that he spoke between me and Dreams has been in ways that I feel like not a lot of other guides have spoken me to and really touches my soul.
And then there's Astaroth, who is connected to Astarte.
In Nana, there's King Prime Mom, there's Leonardo. relationship with Satan and Lucifer and assorted demons feels very cute to me. like a little world of Sanrio characters, kawaii chibi demons.
And it is sweet. From that point, Salem really opened themselves to the presence of entities, and the entities came and revealed themselves to Salem.
This is very different from the practices of atheistic Satanists who seem more like libertarian performance artists.
Not that that's a bad thing. than witches seeking magic.
And while the Church of Satan acolytes are practicing magic, the ceremonial rituals they engage seem less intimate and personal than what Salem has going on with their own army of darkness.
There is a power in the darkness. There is a power.
And I think it's OK. hate to like embrace the darkness even if it is negative or mean in the moment like Because it's just what's a part of you naturally.
You can't get rid of that. You can't let that go.
And it's inspirational because... It's forbidden.
We are forbidden to be dark. I don't think people realize that.
And embracing the love and light can easily slay into embracing puritanical beliefs and faux Christian beliefs.
People don't realize that when you do embrace the darkness, you can embrace something that is different than what society is teaching you.
Satan is so many things to so many people.
A rallying cry, a powerful myth, and the father of a host of demons.
I spoke with Berlin-based Hannah Graves, the tarot reader, teacher, no-bullshit witch, and creator of the cult mother community.
I wanted to know how she worked with and interpreted devil energy when it comes up in tarot readings.
I love this card. I just, I love this card and I think that for me it's one of those cards that When you work with it and you work with it over time, it has so many different layers.
And so I think a lot of people are aware of the kind of more classic interpretation when we're working with devil energy.
It can be very oppressive. It can be very heavy.
We can be dealing with kind of like really hard hitting themes of addiction, depression, anxiety, and I'm absolutely never here to kind of love and light my way through, you know, the impact that some of these issues can have, but I think the more that I've worked with this card and the more that I've chewed on it and the more I think about where it sits, in our major arcana sequence, the more interesting it gets.
In the Major Arcana, the Devil card is number 15.
Its temptation falls right after the balance of temperance, upsetting it.
And then it gives way to the cataclysm of the tower, the building destroyed by lightning from the sky.
That then gives way to the clear skies of the star card and the new beginnings and fresh optimism that she promises.
We're always going to have, you know, dark places that we're going to go and for me the devil becomes kind of then the antithesis of spiritual perfection.
And it's only when we can confront that and the darker realities are kind of who we are and what we're attached to and why that then that lightning strikes the crown. then we get the release that we need.
Then we actually step into the magic of the star.
It's kind of for me, it's a card about embracing our limitations.
The Devil card is associated with Capricorn, which as well as being a sign that embodies earthly power and success, is also ruled by Saturn, the planet that shows us, sometimes harshly, our limitations. but hannah has a capricorn rising so she is no stranger to this disciplinary devil daddy vibe and how she chooses to work with it as someone with a playful Leo stellium is inspiring.
When I get really weighed down with this more kind of Capricorn vibe and this kind of devil energy or it feels very heavy or oppressive, this idea of asking you and when how can i get in my wands what is it that really fires me up I mean, last summer I bought roller skates and went sliding down the runway at the old airfield here, nearly broke both my wrists.
But it was like, it's that kid in you, it's that part of you that just wants to be kind of lit up and excited.
And I think that can be a real antidote for kind of how adult the energy of the devil can get as well. doing something silly for the sake of it, I think can be a, a really good way of kind of confronting or kind of transforming devil energy.
At the end of this day and the end of this episode, we're left with the reality that we all have a shadow side.
The folks I spoke to today aren't interested in love and lighting away the emotions of what astrologer and witch Bran Taylor calls the night rainbow. anger and jealousy, petty gossip, vengeance, cruelty, mean streaks, selfish drives, these all exist within us.
Whether we want to transmute the energy to radical political work, ritualize it for psychological growth, invite demons in for support and understanding, or tie on a pair of roller skates and greet the heaviness with something wild and absurd, there are so many ways to work with this most human of vibes.
At the close of the episode, I've concluded that the devil isn't only our friend and ally.
The devil is us. Thanks for tuning into Your Magic.
Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram at This Is Your Magic.
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Do what you must. to never miss an episode.
You can email us at hello at thisisyourmagic.com.
We would love to hear from you. And you can support us, plus get access to a bunch of bonus content at patreon.com backslash thisisyourmagic.
This episode was produced and edited by We got production support from Angelica Crisostomo.
Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself, and Molly Elizalde.
Our original theme music is by John Kimbrough.
Thanks for listening. to love. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.
Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mare exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus.
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