Hello my friends and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything.
This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and, with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world.
Hi.
My name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute.
Here at ANI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations, and we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home.
Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings, both virtually and in person, all around the world.
Our focus is in three main areas.
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And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.
Jennifer, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you so much, Kwame.
Thanks for having me.
It is my pleasure, my friend.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
So as you already know, but for those who do not, my name is Jennifer Walton.
I am the chief brand officer for Sky Now Consulting.
And Sky Now Consulting is a combination of my husband and I's children's names.
And we are a marketing and brand strategy organization, also focused in the areas of diversity, equity and inclusion.
So what I like to say is that we help organizations manage both their brands and their cultures.
Oh, that's great.
Okay, so can you give us an example of what that looks like?
Because I really want the audience to really absorb how unique this is.
So I would say that our target is really mid to large size organizations.
I have a background in the private sector, working for Fortune 100 organizations, but also in the public sector.
And what I have found across my experience is that many organizations have marketing as a function but not quite marketing strategy.
And in many cases, No strategy at all.
And so what it looks like for me to come in and work with an organization is you've got your business objectives, you have your targets and your goals.
I come in and I match that with a marketing strategy.
My first question is typically, so what does success look like for you?
And then, once we determine that I'm going to help you build out a marketing plan that identifies the who, what and how of actually delivering on those business objectives.
Okay, that's super cool.
Okay, and so listeners, what we're going to do today is we're going to essentially use Jennifer's business as a case study for the difficult conversations that you can have in this realm.
Because again, like we know, difficult conversations are happening everywhere.
And so people might say, well, Jennifer, you're in marketing, like that's what it takes.
But on the pathway to successful marketing strategy there are a lot of difficult conversations that get you there.
And so where should we start with the difficult conversations you're having with your clients?
You know what?
Can I just say that when I'm talking to clients and oftentimes I actually go and I teach at the university level I guest lecture and I try to teach marketing students how to avoid some of these difficult conversations on the upfront.
And one of the biggest things is that in the world of marketing, you are often seen as an expense.
You are an expense on the PL, and so what i try to do when i'm talking to clients up front, when i ask that first question of what does success look like for you, i'm also trying to prove to decision makers at you know, whatever level, that marketing is not quite just an expense but also a revenue generator.
So the first thing i need to do is convince you that i can help you achieve top line growth, And then I can do so efficiently so that you can achieve bottom line growth right.
I think that's the first thing is that many people just assume this is going to cost me money.
And so I've got to convince them that, sure, you cannot cut your expenses to growth.
It may cost you dollars, but I can promise you a return on that investment.
So I think that's probably one of the first things is just kind of getting people in the right mindset when it comes to marketing.
And then I think the other thing is that when you think about many of the functions within a C-suite or within any type of organization where you've got senior leadership around the table that's responsible for different functions, those other functions are given the benefit of their expertise.
The chief financial officer is given the benefit of understanding the numbers.
The chief legal officer is given the benefit of keeping us out of trouble, right?
But the minute that the chief marketing officer stands up and gives their perspective, all of a sudden everyone becomes a marketer.
And that's honestly because I think a lot of people think of marketing as the everyday things that they do or the everyday things that they experience.
And they think, well, I market myself or I read a newspaper.
I get how it's done.
And so to me it's just kind of overcoming the fact that I'm an expert in my space and I can honestly lead you to wherever it is that you're trying to go.
Oh, this is great.
So there's so much to dissect here.
So much.
So it sounds like a big part of the difficult conversations that you're having strategically will happen at the front end, so you can avoid some more challenging conversations.
And it doesn't always work.
It doesn't always work.
But that is exactly it.
Yeah.
And I think that's an important thing to say Jennifer, because if a more challenging conversation happens down the road, that's not a failure.
But I can we can think about it as like chipping away at that conversation.
We can make our subsequent conversations a little bit easier by doing a little bit of due diligence up front.
Absolutely.
And I would say that in my world as an entrepreneur, that's part of the discovery process, right?
So I'm trying to get in, I'm trying to uncover what the needs are for an organization, and particularly what the organizational needs are to actually be able to deliver on selling or promoting their products or services right.
And so sometimes those difficult conversations help me navigate what the path forward needs to look like, what the roadmap needs to look like.
Because for an organization that honestly understands the value of marketing, it's going to look a lot different from an organization that is completely disconnected from the needs and wants and desires of their customer.
And so that gives me insight into what it is that I'm actually offering.
Right.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And one of the things we always talk about is the fact that conflict is an opportunity.
And a lot of times people just run away from these conflicts.
They're afraid of it.
They avoid it. whatever it happens to be.
But when you start to shift your mindset and say oh, this is actually a good thing that we're having this conversation right now, it allows you to lean in and be more inquisitive, because otherwise you're afraid you avoid it completely.
Or while you're actually in the conversation, you're not wholeheartedly in there and you're pulling back and you're not taking the opportunity to learn during the process.
And you mentioned a really good word, which is being inquisitive.
I think what is key to what I'll call my success thus far is asking questions.
And I also do that up front.
I tell people, I'm green.
I'm not trying to poke holes in what you're doing.
I'm also not trying to challenge what you've done in the past.
But as we think about the blue sky ahead of us, I'm going to ask a lot of questions honestly for me to understand where you are and where you're trying to go and how I can help you get there.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And also, you're letting them know... what the process is going to be like.
And you're also making sure that essentially, you're marketing yourself in a certain way, because you're helping them to understand what the narrative should be, versus them spinning it into something that it shouldn't be.
So for example, they might say, why is she asking me all these questions?
Does she not trust me or something like that?
There are a lot of negative connotations that can come from curiosity, if you don't market it the right way on the front end.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I like that.
I'm going to have to put that into my little toolkit.
There you go.
There you go.
So one of the things that you mentioned was that everybody thinks they're a marketer.
And what's really funny is that I often think that I'm a marketer, until I talk to a marketer and I say oh, I am not a marketer.
I am a consumer of marketing and nothing more, right?
And so how do you overcome that ego though?
When somebody thinks they know but they don't know.
But you don't want to offend them in letting them know that they don't know.
You know, the first thing is going back to those questions.
So let me ask you questions so that I can understand exactly how you got to the place that you're in right.
And that is a curiosity that, when done well, I think a key piece of that is understanding how to talk to people and understanding how to communicate in a place of empathy and really just kind of like I want to learn from you.
And then secondly, it is leveraging my expertise from a fact-based place, right?
So if I can hear from you that you have various challenges, let's take email, for example.
If someone is like I have a very solid email strategy, then my questions that I'm going to ask them is okay.
So what is it that you're trying to achieve and how is email helping you to do that?
Now, let me give you my perspective and let me start with the facts of what I've experienced.
Let's lay out the customer journey because honestly, anything that is really well done marketing you think about your biggest and the best brands that you've engaged with.
What has set them apart from perhaps, a brand that hasn't been as good is that they're outside-in thinkers that are focused on their customer or their client right.
They're very focused on what that experience is.
So, as I'm asking questions to understand how a marketing strategy or email strategy has gotten to where it is now, I'm going to come back and say let's look at it from the other side.
Let's look at it from the perspective of the person that you're looking to acquire or retain.
And let's do research that unearths their unique insights or unearths their points of tension in their experience with you as a brand.
And how can I now, once I've kind of provided those insights, that's fact, that's not me.
That is the perspective of your customer or your client.
Now I'm going to work with you to bridge that gap.
Let's build a plan that's an evolution of where you were to where you want to be.
Yes.
Oh, so much good stuff in here.
So one of the things that you said a number of times was first, you want to focus on the facts.
You want to focus on the research too.
And then you said, it's not me.
It's the data.
And that's really powerful, persuasive too, because what often happens is that these conversations devolve into a battle of egos.
So it's not just a perspective that we're bringing to the conversation.
We start to lose ourselves and we can't see the difference between our ideas and our identity.
And so then we start to realize, we start to see this conversation as a threat to who we are.
It's not about right and wrong.
It's not about finding the right solution.
It's about me letting Jennifer know that I am a valuable individual and I'm not going to let her be superior in this conversation, right?
And so by approaching this with humility and empathy, what you're doing is you're diffusing that.
So you're saying, no, this is not about me.
This is just about the experience that I have.
This is what I have observed.
And then now we've had these interactions with your clients.
This is what they have told me.
And now I'm bringing that message to you.
It's not me versus you.
It's us working together.
And now we have some information that we could use.
Does your company invest in professional development training?
If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form and then we'll set up a time to chat.
These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country.
Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement purchasing sales, sourcing and contract management.
Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year.
If you think you might want one, I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out.
Check out the link in the description to learn more.
And now back to the show.
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One of my favorite Peloton instructors always says in the midst of a very tough workout it'll be like hey no, ego amigo.
And, quite honestly, I have to live that myself in this business because I'm also going to present the data and we're going to work together on what that path looks like moving forward.
But sometimes the suggestions and the things that I bring to the table aren't always taken.
And I, too, have to check my ego at the door to say, hey, you know what?
I've put together a plan.
But a lot of what marketing is, quite honestly, is guesswork.
And the landscape is constantly evolving when you think about personalization.
When you think about technology, you know the days of Mad Men where it's like make a nice advertisement and just put it on a billboard.
Are, you know, much more complicated?
And so there's a lot of ways to cut through clutter and messaging that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
And throughout my career, You know, like I mentioned, I've been a Fortune 100 marketing executive.
I've been a marketing executive in the public sector.
And now I'm doing it on my own for many brands.
There are times where I thought this is not going to work.
And it does.
And then there are times where I'm like, this is the best idea I have ever had.
It's going to work.
And it does nothing.
But honestly, it's trial and error.
And what I then provide to clients is let's optimize and figure it out again.
Right.
And I'll give you a bit more credit too.
It's trial and error, but it's their hypotheses, right?
Their hypotheses based on your experience, right?
So your initial hypothesis will be far greater than mine because you have some expertise there.
That's a fair point.
That's a fair point.
And now, when it comes to this because you said something in passing and I want to spend time digging deeply into this, because we hear it all the time
Check your ego.
Check your ego.
And we talked about it earlier.
Hey, it's important to be humble.
Okay, how do I do that?
Because if I'm in this conversation and I feel I am very well positioned and I know I'm right Jennifer, I know I'm right.
Yes, the data is what it is, but I know I personally am right.
So inside of somebody there needs to be like a little bit of a shift that helps us to, like you said, check your ego.
But how do we do that?
You know, that's honestly something that I would say, and this is something that probably is not unique in a general sense, but I would say it's unique to a specific group.
So as a black woman, right?
I'm going to have a much more difficult time convincing a lot of the white male decision makers that I'm in front of quite often to kind of check that ego or even to trust my expertise to begin with.
And I'll tell you that oftentimes, what I do rely on and it's not just trusting the data, it's building a business case.
And so I have to come in and understand, you know, it's the what's in it for them.
And in this case, I have to convince them that whatever idea that I'm stewing on is actually their idea.
And it is taking those questions as a guiding kind of force and then flipping it back to them and asking them questions in a way that gets them to the place that I know they need to go.
And then when they do that, they're basically piecing it together as they go.
And they're like you know, what if we, what if we, what if we?
And I'm validating that, I'm confirming that, I'm slowly guiding that I maybe offer something that allows for a little bit of adjustment.
But in the end, they're going to go, you know what, I've got it.
And likely where they've landed is where I wanted them to go.
One of my favorite quotes about negotiation is that negotiation is the arts of letting them have your way.
And that's exactly what you said.
And you brought up a good point because bias is real and bias will come in different ways.
So, for example, people will come up and ask me hey, I'm young.
The people that I work with are older.
They're biased against me.
Other people come and say hey, I'm older and I'm in the tech space, that's right.
People don't think I'm credible here right I'm, you know.
And so the biases are going to go different ways, and I think it's really important for us to understand what biases are in front of us and, at the same time, we have to check our own ego, because when we feel as though our value that we bring to the table is challenged, that inflames our ego and we bring more of it to the table, which causes more problem.
Because they're saying, oh, now I'm getting some attitude here.
Now I am more resistant here.
And so it's a really delicate balance of being respectful of the other person but also, at the same time, respecting yourself, recognizing that you do bring value to the table and Understanding that the way to persuade somebody in this moment might not feel great in the moment, because you might want to check them, Let them know who you are and what you bring to the table.
But your approach needs to be a little bit more strategic in the moment.
I guess that would be somewhat similar to the vein of allowing someone to win the battle right.
As opposed to the larger war, because I think it is looking at it like that strategy to say, like are the moves right in front of me?
How important are they to the larger effort?
You know, and quite honestly too, I think something that has helped me and it's both been a great advancer of my career and also something that can be a little bit limiting, just because we all only have 24 hours in the day is just being a part of a continuous learning cycle, right?
Things are moving so quickly.
And in order for me to show up as a credible expert and in order for me to be able to negotiate the things that I'm trying to get achieved, I have to kind of know where I'm coming from.
And like I mentioned, in the landscape of marketing, things are changing so fast.
It used to be like, I would walk into a room and it would be, can you just tweet?
Can you show us how to tweet?
Or can you post on Instagram?
And cool, I'm of that generation.
And yes, I can talk to you and I can have those conversations.
But now, The conversation is very quickly pivoting to Web3.
And let's talk about cryptocurrency.
Let's talk about the metaverse.
Let's talk about NFTs.
And I'll be honest with you, all of that stuff goes right over my head.
But I then have to determine, so but what does all of that stuff mean?
And to what extent do I need to know it, as opposed to know what it means for this organization, know what it means for this brand and know if it even makes sense for them to be engaged in that space, given their target audience.
And so when I can kind of be a lifelong learner, continuous learner, it helps me stuff my toolkit with the things that I need to have when I'm negotiating, talking to someone.
Yeah.
Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
And you're right, because what you're showing us here is that we have to always sharpen the sword.
And that'll help us not only in our career but also in the difficult conversations we're having, because we actually have some type of knowledge base that we can resort to right.
And then also it can help other people too, because a lot of times, when these new types of things come up, there's a lot of confusion.
I like to think about confusion kind of like an emotion, because when somebody's in a state of confusion it does not feel good.
But a lot of times in a professional environment people don't want to admit their confusion because they might not feel safe enough or comfortable enough, you know, or humble enough to let you know that right.
And so problems ensue if you have two confused people talking about a subject, right?
But a lot of times neither person is willing to admit that they're confused, and now conversation completely breaks down, right?
And so if you are learning these new things, then it helps you to be a conversational leader.
You can steer the conversation in the right direction and, even though it might not be the right solution for them, and even though it might not be your, your base right your, your knowledge base, where you feel safest, you at least know enough to communicate effectively why they should or should not go into it, and you can do it in a way that makes them feel safe, but also that makes them not feel threatened because they don't have that high level of understanding.
Kwame, I think something that you just identified, which now again I'm going to put in my toolkit, is the value and importance of trust in when you think about having difficult conversations.
When you have a baseline trust and respect with who you're working with, those difficult conversations become much more easy to have right.
Because now it's again, it goes back to.
It's not me.
It is me doing the work because I love it, because I care about the outcomes that you're looking for.
And so, while this may be something that you don't want to hear, I've had a client ask me to launch a TikTok channel for them.
And their target audience are those who are over the age of, let's say, 60 years old.
So that wouldn't be a value added channel for them.
And, you know, the way I looked at it and the way I was able to kind of communicate back to them.
And this is me honestly not knowing how to use TikTok, but this is me saying to them if you had a dollar to spend, and that's it is that where you would place your next dollar to reach your target audience.
Your target audience is 60 plus.
Do you think they are on TikTok?
And as much as it sounded good and as much as it was like, yeah, that's what I'm going to do.
But when I mentioned if you only had a dollar to spend, is that where you would put it?
Now I've contextualized it in a way that they understand and it makes sense to them.
And I don't have to say no to them, but it is me allowing them to opt out.
Exactly.
Again, you're giving them the choice.
You're always empowering them.
And the thing that I love about your approach is that in all of the conversations, you're approaching it from the perspective of How can I help you to succeed.
And not only that, but how can we work together in meeting that goal?
Because when you think about the difficult conversations that you've described, you're not talking about how you can impose your will on somebody else or force them to do something.
What you're doing is you're essentially saying I want to work through the barriers that exist, whether it's emotions discomfort, a lack of trust, maybe bias, whatever it happens to be.
I want to overcome those barriers.
And then I want to put you in a position where you have the information that you need to make a good decision.
And it's your decision.
You own it.
And again, it goes back to negotiation is the art of letting them have your way.
So essentially, you're getting to that destination that you want to.
It might be a bit more of a circuitous route, but it's a route where they feel involved and the relationship is strong at the end of the process.
And you probably didn't mean to position it this way, but I think what you just described honestly I would probably say, would be my business legacy, right?
Or as many would say, that's my reputation.
And that would be what, from a customer journey of actually dealing with me, Jennifer Walton, or hiring Sky Nile Consulting.
At the end of that journey, I want you to refer me to your network, right?
And so I want to leave a legacy that says I worked with you, my client, to build frameworks, to build foundational operations that can live and be successful when I walk away.
Coming from my corporate background, we would work with consultants all the time and you would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for them to come in and either validate what we thought we were already going to do.
Or make a recommendation that's so far away from where we could even reasonably accommodate.
And therefore the money just kind of sits in waste and we get all these really pretty outputs and maps and things like that.
But then we can't actually put that work into practice.
For me, my business reputation, my business legacy, is one that works with clients to build things that can be sustained, that can be sustainable, become foundational to who they are, so that when I walk away, you're still successful.
But it's because we work together and I enabled you or empowered you to do that.
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
Jennifer, this has been fantastic.
Before you go, can you let listeners know again how they can get in touch with you and work with you too?
Yes.
And so I always say our website is www.SkyNileConsulting.com.
That's Sky and that's Nile like the river.
But you can also find me on LinkedIn.
I'm Jennifer Walton, MBA on LinkedIn.
And I say that if you type in my name and she looks like me, then you found the right person.
I love it.
I have a pretty distinct look.
So I love it.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for joining us.
We really appreciate it. the best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better.
Your relationships will improve, your career will soar and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations.
Again, thank you for joining the team.
We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode.
I'll catch you later.
