During COVID, when we all got into Zooming, most people fixed up their backgrounds.
They look nice and professional on Zoom, right?
I haven't done that yet.
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I still have a pile of dirty laundry in the background.
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Whether you slice it, grill it, bake it, braise it, roast it or sear it, at the end of the day, I love me some pork.
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Sirius XM Podcasts.
I hope you're ready to laugh because we got a very fun one for you today.
One of my very favorite writers, an absolutely hilarious person, Samantha Irby.
In this reheat.
Sam and I get in everything from why she loves messy eaters, her struggles with Crohn's disease, which she writes about hilariously in her work, and why she no longer eats burritos over the sink.
And if you don't believe me that she's a funny writer, well, she's going to read some excerpts from her book of essays, Wow, No Thank You.
As always, if you have an episode you want us to pull out of the deep freezer, drop me a line.
Let me know what it is.
That could be our next reheat.
I'm at hello at sporkful.com.
Thanks, and enjoy Sam Irby.
This episode contains explicit language and mature subject matter.
Seriously, like, this is going to get raunchy.
You've been warned.
So we have different approaches to the way a refrigerator should be stocked.
She's going to get so mad and I'm like frothing with joy about being able to talk about this.
Her theory is that condiments are good forever.
That's not me.
If I can't remember when I bought it, then it goes out.
This is Samantha Irby, author of three bestselling books, including her most recent.
Wow No, Thank You.
Sam and her wife Kirsten have been happily married for four years, but condiments in the fridge have become a point of contention.
I just like to be able to see what's in there and be confident that I'm not eating antibiotics or whatever, like whatever gross cheese is.
I just want to know that I'm not eating that.
And she is the total opposite.
You know, I'm listening to you and comparing this to my relationship with my wife.
And one of the shelves on the door of my fridge is my hot sauce area.
Wait a second.
You put your hot sauces in the fridge?
I know most of them don't need to be refrigerated.
Team your wife.
I don't care what you say for me.
You're on a team her.
That's a foul on the play.
I know.
It's more like that's just where there's space for them.
I don't want to leave them out on the counter.
And they're like, we don't have a ton of cabinet space.
On the other hand, I keep a bottle of sriracha on my desk at work.
And that is not refrigerated.
And that one does develop a bizarre sort of brown, funky discoloration at the sort of top part of the bottle that is exposed to air if you leave it out of the fridge for long enough.
And you don't think about how it's passing through the oxygenated brown part?
I do think about that.
I do.
But, like, I sort of have faith in hot sauce to kill anything.
Okay.
Maybe they'll be writing that on my tombstone.
I will come to your funeral and squirt brown sriracha on your casket.
This is The Sporkful.
It's not for foodies, it's for eaters.
I'm Dan Pashman.
Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people.
Sam Irby has written three books of essays, all about her life and her struggles through it.
She finds comedy in her own personal tragedies, sharing details about things that a lot of us wouldn't even mention.
Among her favorite topics poop, since she's got an inflammatory bowel disease depression, which she also has, and sex and dating.
Sam will tell you everything, and she'll make you laugh about it along with her.
She's not really a food writer, but food is a supporting character throughout her essays.
In fact, you can kind of gauge where she is at any point in her life, how things are going for her, what she's dealing with, based on what she's eating at the time.
Because food matters to her a lot.
So in your last book We're Never Meeting in Real Life.
You talked about meeting your wife in one of the early meals you shared together, going out to eat together.
You guys had lunch and you write that she housed a giant plate of huevos rancheros and potatoes and sausages in a matter of seconds.
You said, she wolfed down her food with such ferocity that I felt my pants go damp.
And then you write in all caps, I love people who love eating.
Yes.
Now, and I do too.
I'm with you on that.
But I'm curious to hear from you why.
Okay, so this is unscientific.
But people who eat with abandon are just less uptight. less judgmental, less pinched and fastidious.
It takes all kinds.
But like, I want to be around people who messily, joyfully, enthusiastically consume their food.
Sam's attempts to find some joy in food started when she was young.
Her parents divorced when she was a kid, and they each had their own afflictions.
Her mother had multiple sclerosis, a chronic autoimmune disease.
By the time Sam was nine, she was her mother's primary caregiver.
Her father was an alcoholic.
Sam grew up in Evanston, an upscale Chicago suburb, living in Section 8 housing and relying on her mom's disability payments to get by.
Other than financial limitations, Sam's parents didn't put restrictions on food.
They went to the unofficial school of eat to cure your depression.
I used to take like boxes of Little Debbie oatmeal pies to my room and eat them when I was happy or sad or bored.
Sam's dad had a different comfort food.
I don't know if this is tragic or like really great.
My dad used to eat black walnut ice cream with frosted flakes on top.
I mean, I would try that.
I mean, black walnut ice cream is not for everyone.
I love it, but, you know, be warned.
How is a black walnut different from other walnuts?
I don't know.
You know how, like, bad coffee tastes, like, kind of like dirt?
Like a little burnt?
Yeah, yeah, it's got kind of that, like, charred taste.
Now I want to try it.
Okay.
I'm Googling black walnuts.
Okay.
Most of the walnuts we eat today are English walnuts, which have a milder taste and broader appeal.
Black walnuts, on the other hand, have a bolder, earthier flavor.
Earthy, that's probably what you're describing.
That was my example of how to self-soothe.
I was like, dad, should we talk about our feelings?
And he's like, no, here's some ice cream with sugar cereal on top.
Black walnut ice cream could only do so much in the face of severe depression.
At age 13, Sam attempted suicide.
Five years later, both her parents died just a few months apart.
Her mother from MS.
Her father essentially drank himself to death.
He froze in the street.
Sam quit college.
In the following years, she alternated between living in her car and living in what she calls a crack house.
She worked odd jobs to support herself.
I remember when I was like 19, I started working for my friend's dad.
And he was super rich and he had lived in Italy.
And I used to do like the grocery shopping.
They had like vegetables on the list that I had never heard of before.
Like I didn't know what the fuck bok choy was.
I had to get some kid at Whole Foods to walk around with me to get everything that was on their list.
I was like, I didn't even know you could eat vegetables that didn't come out of a can.
It's interesting, Sam, like in reading so much of your work, which I love so much.
Thank you.
One of the recurring themes that I sort of see is like the ways that we categorize and rank each other.
Mm hmm, like the ways that rich people signal their wealth and superiority, which is often done, but not always done, through food.
Food can be like a status symbol.
So I see this as sort of like an ongoing commentary of yours on, like our never-ending system of rating ourselves against others.
Why is this something you're especially interested in?
I think...
Like having grown up fat and black and poor in a suburb that was fairly like well-to-do.
When you grow up feeling less than and understanding that you have to...
Be extra just to – you have to be the funniest and the smartest, and the this and the that to even – to compete with people who aren't even as good as you are.
You know what I mean?
I think that really sets the tone for your life, at least for me.
I don't know that I've ever – shaken that feeling.
And I have never stopped trying to catch up and be good enough and have enough.
Even as she started to get a more solid footing a job at an animal hospital, enough money to pay rent Sam struggled in her relationships.
She writes about all the shitty people she dated in great detail in her books.
There was the guy who judged her for not buying organic bananas.
The women who would text her hey, you up.
And then there was the angel hair incident.
I had made this pasta dish with bow ties and it was a whole thing, right?
Like if you're going to cook for a person, it feels monumental.
And he was like, oh, I only eat angel hair.
What?
Did he have an explanation?
No.
No, he just kept saying, I only eat angel hair.
And then he went and made a salad and did not eat the food I had cooked.
And that's how I knew that we were doomed.
Oh, my God.
I mean, there's so many things wrong with this situation to unpack.
I mean, first of all, even if you don't like the pasta that's being served, you can't choke down a few bow ties just to be polite.
That's what I'm saying.
And it was like a cream sauce with mushrooms.
It was very delicious.
It sounds really good.
And that sounds like the right kind of sauce and vegetables to be going with that pasta shape.
But on top of all that, Sam, angel hair is the most trash pasta of all time.
It is disgusting.
It feels like weird fibers in your mouth.
And did you learn something about yourself from that specific encounter?
Well, to never cook for a man again.
And I didn't.
I have not made a meal for a man since.
Of all the bad dating stories Sam has shared over the years, there's one in her new book that tops them all.
The beginning refers to her having Crohn's disease, which is an inflammatory bowel disease.
I asked her to read it.
Oh, my God.
That kind of shit can really ruin you.
You know what I mean?
I was having the kinds of dating experiences that, if I'd recounted them on a therapist's couch rather than on a free blog, that person would have been like hold up.
Have you ever heard of self-esteem?
And no, I haven't, which is why I ate a glazed donut off a dude's dick one time.
You comment on what the therapist would be telling you if you relayed this story to them.
What do you think the therapist would be telling these two guys?
Um, I feel, well, okay.
I feel like the therapist would say to them what are you doing with this person who is so clearly damaged that she's willing to do these things for you?
This is not to say that I don't believe that people can make empowered decisions to do whatever right.
Like, if that's your kink, do it.
When I was...
Doing all this stuff.
It was definitely from a place of like please like me which is not the healthiest way to get attention or love or whatever it is you're looking for.
I certainly wasn't like, yes, I prefer my donuts with dicks through that.
The other thing that, I'll be honest, I was wondering when reading that and I asked this as a person myself you know who likes a whole chicken and a donut now and again.
And you strike me as a person who does too.
Is there any way to achieve like any level of deliciousness in this experience?
Like what's the strategy here?
Oh, well, okay.
So now that we're not talking about like the sad part of it, I met this dude who was –
A trainer at the Bally Fitness.
It was the kind of thing where I was like, oh, this has to be coming from a bad place.
It wasn't like we were going to be doing tandem stretching or whatever.
And I was pretty broke at this time.
He would buy groceries, and I was like, oh, maybe I am debasing myself, but fine.
He's keeping the pantry full.
And it required so little of me that it was almost like easy to forget that it was like kind of depraved.
I never like ate a whole chicken in one sitting.
It was actually a pretty good gig.
The bad part...
The bad part of it is like I thought, like I was having a relationship, you know, marriage notwithstanding.
If someone offered that now, I would be like, okay, because I know what I'm doing.
I would be like, drop the food off.
That's your chair where you sit.
This is the table where I sit.
Get your pants down.
Let's go.
And then when it's done, see ya.
Right.
Wow, Sam, you've really grown.
All right.
Now, same question, but for the donut guy.
Let me tell you, nothing is more embarrassing than like watching someone like put their dick through a donut hole and like the donut is like hanging.
Because like in your fantasy, right, you do that and the donut like, you know, is snug.
But it wasn't.
Now, now I really want to go down this wormhole where it's like I imagine him like buying other donuts and carving out the interior holes, or like wedging them in to make the hole smaller so that it fits.
And he can buy like a Boston cream and make his own hole.
But then I'd be like, uh, what is that?
Syphilis?
So I think you get the picture of Sam's dating life in her 20s.
Coming up, we hear about the diagnosis she got around the same time.
It forces her to change the way she eats, and she tries to avoid becoming the kind of eater she hates.
Stick around.
Saute, you stay, because it's time for some ads.
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Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat.
I'm Dan Pashman.
Hey, check out my Instagram when you get a chance.
I share what I'm up to, what I'm eating, all of my hot takes that don't always make the cut here on the Sporkful.
Although I don't know why anybody would want to cut out my rants about the best way to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
But the point is that that stuff is on my Instagram and we have a lot of fun there.
Also, sometimes I'm like debating, what should we do for this episode?
And I'll put up a poll.
So it gives you a chance to actually have input into the show.
So you can do it right now while you're listening.
Follow me on Instagram at thesporkful.
Again, that's at thesporkful.
Thanks.
Now, back to Samantha Irby.
She writes a lot about living with Crohn's disease.
She thinks it's important to talk about it because so many people live with serious digestive problems and feel like they can't talk about it.
That's one of several health issues Sam's dealing with.
I asked her to read another excerpt from her latest book of essays, Wow, No Thank You.
Thank you so much.
I don't even have time to get into all the shit you need to be doing for your dumb blood.
And your organs, which you shouldn't even have to worry about since you can't see them.
Folic acid, potassium, calcium, turmeric, zinc, B12, sodium, magnesium.
There are not enough hours in the day for all the motherfucking beans you need to be eating.
The bananas, the kale, the eggs, the oats, the salmon, the broccoli, the plain yogurt, the cherries, the Brussels sprouts, the flax seeds, the 19 cups of unsweetened green tea.
I need to know how to get some extra cow stomachs to hold all the shit that's going to keep me alive, plus all the shit I actually want to eat.
Loving yourself is a full-time job with shitty benefits.
I'm calling in sick.
You talk in the book about your various health issues.
You have degenerative arthritis.
You dealt with major issues with your period, to the point that you had a procedure that was like one step short of a hysterectomy.
And you have Crohn's disease, which can wreak major havoc on your digestion.
Diagnosing it requires like tons and tons of tests over many months.
And then, when you finally find out you have Crohn's disease, the treatment can be different for everyone.
Yes.
Tell me about that process.
So I think my entire life, I had had just like raging bouts of diarrhea.
But my parents were like, you just eat the wrong things.
They weren't like, oh my God, let's investigate the cause of these problems.
They were like, you had too many Oreos today.
Right, right.
That's it.
So then I had like my first big attack where I ended up in the hospital.
I was napping.
I woke up.
My stomach was in blinding pain and it was like distended and red and hot.
And I was like what happened is happening here?
And I went to the emergency room and it turns out my intestines had swelled and twisted kind of like a pretzel and they were going to operate.
I got a whole bunch of injectable steroids and luckily that took the swelling down enough that they were like okay, we won't cut you open, but you're going to have to stay in the hospital.
And I ended up staying there for two weeks.
And that's when we kind of started all of the testing to figure out what it was.
So that was 2005.
I was 25 and I'm 40 now.
Sam says her Crohn's isn't as severe as what some people deal with.
She's never had to have a major part of her intestines removed.
But it still took her a long time to figure out how to treat it.
Early on she went on an elimination diet, which means you cut out all the possible triggers from your diet to the point that there's only a couple things left you can eat.
Then you slowly add foods back to determine which ones make you sick.
You know, like all the roughage and all the fiber and the this and the that is really hard on a person with digestive issues to eat.
I remember once I had eaten two apples and in a day and thought that i was like gonna give birth, like that's how severe right the pain was, and then kind of like trying to work a full-time job while being like uh-oh, i don't know if this is gonna come out so good that like that period of time was really was really rough.
So if you're a person who sometimes eats to feel better emotionally, what effect does Crohn's disease have on you?
The worst case scenario is that if I eat something to feel better, with complete disregard to how it might make my body feel later, when you know it's wreaking havoc on me, I one feel worse about the thing that I was trying to eat to feel better about and two feel like a bad person for putting my body through you know whatever nightmare that.
It just feels like a really shitty paradox.
Yeah.
And I like all the parts of eating.
Like I love to cook and I love to cook for people and I love to eat with people.
I think anytime you get a diagnosis of whatever kind, it's like, oh, what a relief.
Right.
At least you have you have like an answer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like there's there's that part of it that's like, oh, thank God.
And there's meds for this and procedures for this.
Great.
I'm insured.
Excellent.
Thank you.
This is great.
And then there's the, you know the sinking feeling of like it's a disease that messes up my favorite thing.
How sad for me.
Was there a specific moment soon after your diagnosis when you realized that this was going to change your relationship with food?
So one thing was I hate to plan.
I'm not a planner.
Like it fundamentally changed who I was as a person.
There's no like casual eating anymore, right?
There's like, I can eat this.
I need to figure out what my reaction to it is.
And who at 25 doesn't want to be anything other than carefree, right?
Because like I said at the beginning, Like, I want to be fun and be around people who are fun.
And the least fun thing is the person with all the dietary restrictions and problems.
And then I was that person where I had to be.
So I didn't do anything socially for a long time, at least not where food was concerned.
Sam has been on various medications, but now she's not on any.
Her Crohn's has been in remission for a few years.
She maintains a gluten-free diet, which is a common prescription for Crohn's patients.
But Sam is still a sucker for the latest wellness trends, like the time she heard about a footwear designer who swore by alkalizing her body.
Here's Sam reading from that story in her new book.
I go to the doctor every other day and never has one of them told me about alkalization.
Alkalining?
Alkalinization?
The need to be alkalized.
I'm in awe of people who talk like that with a straight face.
And let me tell you, the shit stuck.
So now I start my morning by drinking some room temperature water from the pitcher on the counter, with a few slices of Meyer lemon from those little bags of them that you can get at Trader Joe's.
It has done absolutely nothing for me from what I can tell.
But later on, when I eat an entire jalapeno and pepperoni pizza and feel bad about it, I can think to myself bitch, remember when you alkalized?
And feel clean.
What's the most extreme wellness routine or product you've ever tried?
Oh, my God.
I know what it is because it mocks me every day.
First of all.
I will get into any wellness thing that doesn't require, like, actually changing my life or habits.
So, like, I'll take whatever supplement, whatever powder, I'll do it.
And I got from goop.com these... Oh, it's a mush... I think it's mushrooms.
This mushroom powder called...
Mianuka Purians or something like that.
I can, like, email you what it's actually called.
But for the purposes of this, like, who cares?
Nobody's going to go buy it because they're all smarter than I am.
But I read this one of these.
I'm a sucker for these profiles where, like beautiful young women talk about their day and what they consume.
And And I read this one from a footwear designer.
And she said that she put some of this powder in her coffee every day.
And it's like nature's Adderall.
It makes me feel so focused.
And I'm like, you know, I would love to feel focused.
And I ordered a $48 tub of powder that I used two times.
Yeah.
And did you feel focused?
No.
You know what I did?
Speaking of the Crohn's, I spent the whole day worried that whatever was in it was going to give me diarrhea.
And also, it's like you want to know what's actually nature's Adderall?
Caffeine, which exists naturally in coffee and tea, which are natural products.
Yeah, see?
I want so much to believe that there is a magic pill or potion that is like the key to happiness and getting work done that I don't even like using.
Logically, think about any of this stuff.
I don't logically think like, oh, she drank it in coffee.
It's the coffee.
I think, get me that powder immediately.
You have this line in the book that I thought was really compelling.
You write.
I have been stuck with a smelly, actively decaying body that I never asked for and I'm constantly on the receiving end of confusing, overwhelming messages for how to properly care for and feed it.
And this is a theme you touch on a few times in your writing like at times feeling outside of your body and your body being this sort of incomprehensible machine that you kind of pilot but can't really control.
Yeah.
And I would imagine that at times there's sort of a feeling of desperation with that, and that that may also be part of what these sort of magical elixirs, what makes them appealing?
Yeah.
Yeah, because it's really easy to feel like you're doing something wrong, right?
And like you're depressed because you're doing something wrong, or this is happening because you're doing something wrong.
And specifically when it comes to my body, it has helped me to think of it as like as what it is, like cells and chemicals and hormones that I am absolutely not in control of.
So some of the struggles that Sam wrote about in her earlier books are still struggles.
Physical health, mental health.
But as I said to her, it does sound like some things are better.
She's learning how to manage her health issues.
The new book is dedicated to the antidepressant Wellbutrin.
She now lives in Kalamazoo, Michigan with her wife and stepkids.
And she's a New York Times bestselling author, even writing for TV.
So her finances are improving.
I asked her, has any of this changed the way you eat?
Yes.
I mean...
Let's be honest when you live with a person all the time and they see all of the parts of you, it's really hard to keep the bad things hidden.
So I try to eat like more salads and try to put things on a plate and sit down.
Wow, Sam, you have really sold out.
I know I can't even tell you the last time I ate a burrito over the sink, which is my preferred way of eating a burrito.
I got to say, Sam, I follow you on Instagram.
And when you post food, it seems like most of the stuff you post looks pretty nice.
I mean, I saw a very lovely frittata there recently.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, I am.
See, that's the thing.
I am a good cook.
And when I have people to cook for who can praise me.
Oh, I got it.
Got it.
Okay.
That's part of it too, right?
It's like now I live with people and I can be like, oh, do you see that thing I made?
Delicious, right?
So I would say that I cook things that are nicer looking and I try to present them well because they're being served to people.
And I have fewer over the sink moments.
That's Samantha Irby.
Her new book of essays is called Wow, No Thank You.
This show is produced by me along with senior producer Emma Morgenstern and producer Andres O'Hara.
Additional production by Julia Shu.
Our editor is Tracy Samuelson.
Our engineer is Jared O'Connell.
Music help from Black Label Music.
The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher.
Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Daisy Rosario.
Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
And I'm Tim Sarantonio from Chicago, Illinois, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
This reheat was produced by The team that produces The Sporkful.
Today includes me, along with managing producer And senior producer.
Our engineer is The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios.
Our executive producer is Camille Stanley.
And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app?
Yes, the SiriusXM app has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage.
Does your podcasting app have that?
And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more.
It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one.
And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to SiriusXMcom slash Sporkful.
Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
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