Win Yourself First — Then Win the Deal | Negotiate Anything

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Let me ask you something.

Are you truly where you want to be in your career?

Or are you waking up every day knowing that you're capable of more, but you're just not sure how to bridge that gap?

Most successful people that I know, the ones that lead at the highest levels.

Don't figure it out in a vacuum.

They have mentors and coaches guiding them.

I've always said that the most important negotiation you'll ever have is the one you have with yourself.

And for me, one of the toughest self negotiations that I had to have was unlearning the belief that I could do it all by myself.

Early on in my journey I thought that I had to have all the answers, but I quickly realized that the fastest way to hit a ceiling is to work in isolation.

It wasn't until I sought out mentors and professional coaching that I actually learned how to articulate my value and navigate the high stakes pivots that got me where I am today.

And that's why I'm such a believer in what strawberry.me career coaching is doing.

They're removing the guest work and giving you a direct line to that same level of expertise.

We'll see you next time.

Welcome to this Negotiation Masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.

With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.

What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.

Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.

Success doesn't look the same for everyone.

And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.

Let's dive in.

Daniel, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thanks for having me.

I'm excited.

You're just fun to talk to, honestly.

That's the real truth of it.

Well, I appreciate it.

See, now this is my opportunity to put you in the hot seat because I was on your great show.

And yeah, so let's take this opportunity to introduce the listeners to who you are and what you do.

Yeah well, I like to say I design conversations for a living and I generally insist that that's what everyone else does also.

I mean, the types of conversations I enjoy designing, I coach leaders one-on-one.

So I like designing those conversations for depth and effectiveness.

And I also design workshops so that teams can learn new skills and apply them.

And I also like to design bigger organizational conversations so that the new skills that a team learns actually get used effectively deliver results.

So those are the small, medium, and large conversations I particularly like to design.

Well, yeah, well, again, you're being modest.

You have to tell them about the book, too, and the podcast.

Yeah, I know.

OK, so maybe I need to hit my marks.

So, yeah, so I started a podcast about designing conversations.

I did my first interviews for it in 2016.

I was working with the group in 2015 in Australia.

This goes way back, but they called their facilitative practice conversation design.

And I was very confronted by that.

So I have a background in industrial design.

I got a master's of industrial design at Pratt in New York.

And industrial design has this view like.

If you look around you, literally everything around you has been designed like your microphone the picture frame that bookcase your jacket, the brush you were just using to touch up your beard.

And the food we eat, the houses we live in, the roads we drive on, the offices we work on, everything we use has been designed.

And as I've evolved in design, there's new ways of thinking about design that help us see with new eyes.

So industrial design was like, oh, it's a physical object.

And then there was interaction design, which was like, oh, actually, it's not about the object.

It's about the screen.

And so it's like, oh, actually, it's not about the screen.

It's about the service it's connected to.

So service design was came up after for me, interaction design, where people are like no, it's about interactions, and somebody's like no, it's a service, it's an experience of a product, is really just all of your favorite products or services that you experience over time, and somebody's like no no, it's it's customer experience design.

No no, it's human-centered design.

So, like all these different ways of thinking about it, and when so this group of non-designers talked about their work as conversation design, i was like well, what does that mean?

Honestly, I was like I know what an object and an experience.

And when we do UX and user experiences, we try to break the problem down.

We say, what are the pieces of the problem?

So if we're designing for a customer, like we design personas and we do customer journey maps and we try to like use the tools of design thinking to be clear about the problem and to be clear about the solution.

With conversations, honestly, Kwame, I was like, well, what is a conversation?

How do you design it?

And so I actually sat down for three interviews, four interviews.

But I asked them like what does conversation made of?

What does the phrase conversation design mean to you?

Like, what are the implications of it?

And I don't know, the feedback was like, intriguing.

And so it was just a bug in my brain.

And so, for me, I just kept exploring it and just being like well, if we design conversations and I think we do what are they made of and what are the ways in which we can design them that are effective?

And so, and I'll just give you an example of that.

Today I was talking to somebody who I coach who's up for a job at inside of her organization for like, a more impactful role.

And so she has to go to the hiring lead, who she knows very well.

And it's this question of, like, she's tapped for it.

It's one of two people internally who are interviewing for it.

And it's like well, if you want me for it, you've known me a long time.

Why aren't you just giving me the job?

Right?

Like, that's what she wants to ask.

That's what she wants to know about.

And this is like the classic negotiator's dilemma.

Like there's what you want to ask and what you want to know and the ways that you can ask it.

And so this, she sort of started with like, well, we circled around and around.

She's like well, you know that I'm great for this job, which is why you've asked me to apply for it.

Like, tell me more about why you think I'll be great for this job.

I was like, well, that's a, that's a, start there.

That's a really interesting entry point into the conversation.

And then you can go into the like, well, what are some gaps you see?

Like what, what, what are some things that you're not sure about?

Or what are some things that I need to prove?

And, Then let's go into like, what are some, how would I grow in this job?

And I was like, this is Rose Thorn Bud.

Rose Thorn Bud is this classic conversation design framework that I learned about from the Boy Scouts of America.

I used to work with this, literally an overgrown Boy Scout who used Rose Thorn Bud.

It's a check-in tool.

Rose is like something great for your day.

A thorn is something painful or not great.

Uh sorry, rose is something great.

A thorn is something painful, not great, and a bud is something that could become a rose, that could develop or evolve into something beautiful.

He used it to check in with his three daughters at the dinner table because as, as you know, you have, you have a kid.

If you're like, how are your day?

And they're like fine, there comes a point where like, they don't really want to tell you, i use rose thorn bud with my wife when we're on vacation.

We do like a little stand-up.

I'm like hey what's, let's do a rose thorn bud of today?

And it's one of these simple designs for the conversation of, like well positive, negative potential.

And it's just, I love when you find a pattern that just, it's a design that works for everything.

Like in so many contexts, like rose, thorn bud, it's like once you start seeing it, you see it everywhere.

Yeah.

Oh, this is crazy.

This is really interesting.

And, and, and, I love the simplicity of this, but at the same time, the power behind it, too.

Because when it's simple and it's clear, then it leads to clear and consistent action and execution, which I appreciate.

And I never thought about it in terms of conversational design.

Yeah, I think that's a brilliant, brilliant concept.

So we have rose thorn.

But again, can you hit those three points again?

Just make sure we have it.

Yeah, roses are rosy.

They smell nice.

So it's things that are positive.

And look, I started with plus delta just to give you an example.

Like plus delta is what I used to use to get people to reflect or do feedback.

Pluses are something that are great.

And deltas, there's no there's no negatives.

It's like you take a negative and you have to turn it into a delta.

Delta is used in physics as the Greek symbol for change.

So I wrote an article about this recently getting people to reflect about the last year before they start to think about what they want to do differently with this year.

And what you reflect on will determine what you come out with.

And so you should do a rose thorn bud for sure.

But you should also do gratitude, like just to really highlight what's something i'm grateful for, and it's kind of similar to rose, like something that's positive.

But the word matters.

I think the word designs the conversation.

So somebody said, somebody said to me recently, like oh, what if you do tragedies and gifts?

She used this in a group she was in.

Tragedies and gifts.

And those you talk about designing a conversation.

That's like a different invitation into a different conversation.

Rose, thorn, bud, something positive.

Thorn, something negative or painful.

And bud, something that can grow into a rose.

This is cool.

So why don't we just do a little role play here?

Okay.

Rose, thorn, bud.

And so let's say this is our – we're just – you're kind of breaking the ice.

We're getting to know each other.

And is this something that you would actually say let's do rose thorn bud or kind of guide the conversation in that way, using that framework in your head?

Oh, my God.

That is such an interesting question, Kwame.

I want to pause on this because I was just thinking about this question earlier.

Of like, what's your theory of change?

So when you're giving a group a new tool, do you say okay, here's this new tool and I'd like to use it?

Or do you just bake it into what you do?

So I can do Rose Thorn Bud in my head and you never know.

Right?

That's like, Hey, what's going on?

What's something that's lighting you up these days?

What's cracking for you?

What are you excited about?

You can say it in so many ways, and that's so much better than, how's it going?

How's it going in terms of designing conversations is one of the most lazy conversations, because you're asking the other person to do all the work.

Saying like, hey, what's lighting you up these days?

People go like, oh, well, what is lighting me up these days?

Nothing.

Oh, okay.

Well, then cool.

Well, then what's hard for you these days?

And what's on your mind?

And they're like, this, this, and this.

You're like well, so if you're looking ahead, is there anything that's on the horizon that you're excited about?

And so it's just baking it in.

Being explicit about it worked for me, especially with my wife.

She'll listen to this.

She had a job a couple of years ago that was super stressful for her and she would come home every day and she would be like well, here's everything terrible that happened with my day.

And I'll be like honey.

What I'd like to do is I'd like for each of us to share one rose, one thorn and one bud.

And so that's about designing the conversation for equality.

I was saying Hey, like you're taking up a lot of airspace with all the negativity and And I could just be like, stop being negative, you're a terrible person.

But see, this is about like and I teach this when I teach groups facilitation there's the push and then there's the pull.

So a push is like saying, you're doing this wrong, fix it.

And designing the conversation is just changing the parameters.

So it's very hard to argue with like yeah, of course we should both share one rose, one thorn and one bud.

That seems fair.

And you can pass.

You can say, I don't have any roses.

Fine.

Cool.

Or, oh, I've got two thorns.

Cool.

But there's a parameter and you're working against it.

Right.

Okay.

So let's do it now.

Let's do it where you are using it as your personal map.

But you're using it on me just, I don't want to say with, let's say with me.

You're using it with me during the conversation to make sure the conversation flows really quickly and we're just getting to know each other.

So how would you start?

Well, I mean, I don't know.

What's a topic?

Should we talk about podcasting or should we talk about family life?

What's the thing that's most exciting for you about your podcast?

What's the thing that lights you up the most about it?

Well, right now it's the team.

We have Maria Eaton, who's joined the team, Simone Perez, who's joined the team.

And right now, the fun thing is I get to talk to awesome folks like you.

And that's all I have to do.

I just get into the team and as if by magic, everything just happens.

So it allows me to produce content without stress.

And now we're going to get to more episodes every week.

I'm just really excited about that.

I'm so jelly.

What's your biggest challenge with the show?

The biggest challenge is, I would say it would be consistent growth.

And it's not to say that we are not growing, because we definitely are.

So we're at about 34,000 downloads a week, which is great.

But I'm really competitive Daniel, you know.

So we've been on this slow growth path, so constantly trying to think about ways that we can expedite that growth by adding more content, higher quality content, so that that's a challenge um, that that i really want to focus on this year.

So it's like you're almost kind of going into this what's something that's emerging.

This is this is how i sometimes like to phrase the bud like what's What's something that's emerging that you're excited to see come to fruition.

I would say it's the recognition that, even though our bread and butter is negotiation trainings, that's the thing that brings in revenue.

Recognizing and growing into the reality that we are a media company first.

We have the podcast.

We have the YouTube page.

We have a lot of activity on LinkedIn.

And now we have the team and the capacity to grow in that in a way that I've always envisioned but never was able to do myself.

Yeah.

That's so cool.

And so I'm curious.

So to me, I started my professional career in design interviewing people.

And so this is why I think of having a spine that goes through the conversation.

To me.

I think about what you teach giving people mental models for negotiation.

Having recipes is instead of just floating through space.

You've got guardrails.

You know, you're like, oh, I'm just trying to find my my Zopa.

Like before.

You even know that there's a term zone of possible agreement.

You don't even know what you're doing.

You just think you're haggling.

Right.

And then you're like, wait a minute.

You know and this is where I think a mental model can also change the conversation, where you say negotiation isn't about making agreements, it's finding agreements.

Agreements, it's not making deals, it's finding deals.

And so that that's another way I think you can redesign the conversation, is just with a different metaphor.

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I had somebody on my podcast, Ian Altman.

He wrote a book called Same Side Sales.

And he was like, look, some people think of sales as a game you win and we're on different sides.

I'm trying to sell you and nobody likes being sold.

And this is a terrible metaphor.

And so he's like look, a puzzle is something we solve together by sitting on the same side of the table.

And we...

And this is just what a negotiation is too.

Like we try to get on the same side and we were like, well, what do we do with this orange?

What is the best use of this orange?

You know, to use the classic William Murray story from Getting to Yes.

It's like, and that's a different way of designing the conversation.

It's like, it's a war or, oh, it's a puzzle.

And that changes everything.

I think.

Once you change your mental image, it changes how you hold space for the conversation.

So in my book, I wrote a book called Good Talk.

I tried to summarize everything I'd learned on the podcast for the last couple of years.

And one of the ideas is cadence, the temperature of the conversation.

And I see this all the time with people like My coach admits this.

He's trying to learn not to step in, to create more spaciousness, to create more silence space for the other person.

And I think, until you start noticing there's some people who don't even know that they interrupt people.

And so once you start to see the temperature of a conversation, then you can start to try and design it.

Some people like hot, hot conversations.

Some people like cool conversations.

And so I think there's preferences we have across these ways of being.

And it's just good to know what our preferences are, what our conversational partners' preferences are, and then hopefully find a place to work together in that space.

This is so cool.

It's great.

So let's list the things that I appreciate here.

I appreciate, again, the simplicity.

I appreciate the structure.

I appreciate the fact that this is replicable. in a variety of situations.

And I appreciate the use of mental models.

And it's funny, Daniel, because we're over 250 episodes in at this point.

I think you're the first guest to use that term. mental models, and they're so powerful.

And so for people who have not heard that term, can you give a definition that is broad, that encompasses everything mental models could potentially, and then more specific as how it applies here?

Organizing chaos.

Breaking the universe down into fundamental shapes smooths the way.

It reduces cognitive load when you're thinking.

And so just telling people, you know, there are three ways to think about this.

That's a mental model, right?

Zopa is a mental model.

It takes the insane variety of the universe and says, here's what's going on.

And I literally just wrote an article about this.

There's something called the systems thinking iceberg.

And the idea of like the classic iceberg is like there's something at the top and there's a bunch of stuff underneath it.

And when anybody says this is like an iceberg, it's a mental model.

You're like, so this is what you see and this is what's unseen.

You're dividing the world into the seen and the unseen, right?

And so now you have a picture, you have a model of what's happening.

Now what's really important and I think this is important with negotiations.

I certainly learned this from user experience design.

My friend Indy Young wrote a book about mental models from a user experience design perspective.

Because our job as designers of objects and services is to understand what our customers' mental models are.

So when you make a new app or a new service and somebody looks at it and goes, what is this for?

It doesn't fit with their mental model.

And so this is, I think, what we're always trying to do when we're negotiating with somebody, when we're conversing with somebody, when we're trying to collaborate.

We're trying to explore their mental models.

Well, what do you mean when you say that?

When you think about this, what are the words you would use to describe it?

And that's one of the reasons why one of my favorite ways to design a conversation is to get people to draw.

Draw your solution.

I'll draw my solution.

Let's put a button on the wall and we'll talk about it, so that I can literally see what you're talking about.

But a mental model is taking the world and breaking it up into fundamental parts and putting them in relationship to each other in a way that makes you go.

Okay, I get it.

There's a wonderful book called 50 Decision-Making Models, or I think it's a tiny.

It's one of these.

It's like a bathroom book, which is my favorite type of book.

I aspire to write a book that was like you could.

Just I don't know if this is crude, but it's like a book you can just pick up anytime and Just flip through a couple of pages and get something out of it.

The decision-making models book is like a mental model.

For example, I'm working with a team and they're strapped for time to use these new tools.

And I'm like, okay, well, here's the Eisenhower matrix.

It sounds like you're familiar.

It's like what's urgent and what's important.

And you're like, okay, so a lot of people have a to-do list that's just a list.

That's a very common mental model of like, I have some stuff to do and I'll put it on my to-do list.

That's a model and it's one dimensional.

The Eisenhower matrix is a different mental model.

It says there's what's important and what's urgent.

And then the mental model is which quadrant is number one and which one's number four.

Obviously, what's urgent and important is, you do first, and what's not urgent and what's not important, you don't do.

But then the next question becomes, what do you do next?

What's important but not urgent?

And the answer is you do what's important and not urgent.

Or do you do what's urgent and not important?

And these are the secrets of life.

When somebody gives you one of those mental models, I think it can be life-changing to be able to see the world in a new way.

Mental models change how you think and how you think will change how you act forever.

Absolutely.

It makes so much sense.

And there's so much that I want to dig into here.

For the sake of time, we have to move on, thus solidifying the fact that you will be back on the show.

I mean, if for nothing else, just selfishly, because I want to keep on learning.

This is great.

But let's dig deeper into the inner and outer conversations.

What does that mean?

You talked about, I was just working on our show notes.

So the idea of doing a rose thorn bud with someone else works for yourself.

So when I went off at the end of last year to do a reflection session with myself, what am I excited about?

What worked?

What didn't work?

What's on the horizon?

Where do I feel the most energy?

I think what I've seen is that leaders make time to think. like taking time to think is important.

And so I think negotiating with yourself is the same way, follows the same pattern as negotiating with another person.

And I think it's a weirdly profound thing.

When I started my journey in designing conversations, I was not really that aware of my inner conversation.

I wasn't that curious about it.

But the idea that they were all related And that it was just as important.

It actually changed how, so like I facilitate learning experiences and workshops for people.

And it made me realize that I needed to give people more time to think their own thoughts.

I think a lot of people think like, okay, like, yeah, like let's talk about this.

I'm like, sure.

Well, let's have a talk with ourselves first.

What does everyone in the room think for yourself?

So I'm going to set a two-minute timer and I'm going to get everyone to just journal what they think about this challenge.

What do they think is possible?

What are your hopes and your fears and your dreams?

What are your roses, thorns, and buds?

Whatever it is.

And then let's share it out one at a time.

That's like having the inner conversation, making space.

It deserves as much do. as the outer conversation.

And I think it makes for better negotiations.

It makes for better collaborative experiences.

Anytime I've run a workshop and removed or shortened, it feels excruciatingly long for me.

And so a minute goes up and I'm like, hey, everyone, that was just one minute.

It's a muscle.

So, in the same way that we can learn how to negotiate with other people, I think it's a muscle to actually be to journal, to be silent, to turn off the conversation.

It makes a lot of sense.

And on the show, we've talked a lot about the value of introspection.

What's really interesting to me is that You, in your trainings, in your facilitations, you are actually injecting time for introspection.

And as somebody who does trainings regularly, I think it's a really great idea, number one.

And I think it takes a lot of bravery, number two.

It does.

People are very uncomfortable with that silence.

It is.

And I think this goes back to mental models.

So what you value, what you see is what you'll create more of.

So it's like if you don't value introspection, if you don't even understand that it exists, you won't make space and time for it.

But for me, it's co-equal.

It's just as important as outer speech, if not more important.

And so I give it its due.

If that's your mental model, you create space for it.

If it's not, you won't.

I think it's game-changing to make sure that it gets its proper space.

Absolutely.

And so I find it really interesting to do a bit of a callback here to what you were talking about when you were discussing the rhythm and tempo of a conversation, how some people feel more comfortable with silence than other people, and how you have to feel that out.

When you were having that outer conversation.

How do you go through that process of recognizing tempo?

Yeah, so it's much harder online because in person you can actually hear the room.

So I know, when a group starts talking and where the volume in the room raises to a certain level, that it's time to move on to another topic.

And so with online conversations, which is where obviously all conversations will be happening for a long time, I use visual boards.

So we work visually like either in Google Slides or a tool like Mural.

And I can see people moving sticky notes around and I'm measuring amount of activity.

So I know when things are, it goes in a curve.

Everything just like, like every good story, there's a rising and falling arc of intensity.

And I look at their conversation with the same arc where I'm like okay, so I just put them in the room and they're kind of finding their way, and then they're moving stuff around and then things are starting to slow down.

And so that's where I start to see when it's time to bring them back and check in.

And that's how I'm measuring the temperature by like, and this is like super nerdy, but my first degree was in physics.

It's like temperature is actually almost like kinetic energy.

It's like when gas particles are moving around in a vessel they're actually pushing and moving and hitting the thermometer.

That's the pressure that a gas creates.

A group of people do the same thing.

They're just moving around.

They're talking and they're sharing ideas.

And I have to have those sticky notes to sort of see the temperature or I just have to do math.

And I say okay, they're in a breakout room and there's two people and four minutes per person, and just trust in the universe and say my Hail Marys.

This is great.

I like it.

And wow.

Wow.

440 already.

Okay.

And so for the sake of time, we have to move on to the last point, which is facilitative leadership.

And so tell us what that is and how it's beneficial to us as we move forward.

Progress in our careers.

I was just watching somebody's presentation where they're pointing out the World Economic Forum.

And there's tons of studies about this.

It'll say like, what are the jobs of the future?

And all of the jobs of the future are pretty much conversation jobs.

They're meeting jobs.

There's jobs where we are in meetings with each other having conversations, solving weird squishy, complex challenges.

They are jobs that a computer can't do, because computers will start doing more and more of the jobs that they can do.

The future of work, I think, is in human conversation.

Shaping human conversations is facilitation and leading those conversations.

When a group of people come together and they need to make a decision, that's our job is to shape the dialogue so that they make a good decision.

To orchestrate meetings to make sure the conversations that need to happen need to happen.

And this is just my perspective.

I feel like when you start to see the importance of the inner conversation to honor and respect everyone's voice, This is table stakes now.

I think you used to be able to do the command and control and bossing people around jerk leadership, aggressive leadership.

People can switch jobs.

You won't get the best out of people by being abusive for long.

You can get something out of people that way.

And so I think facilitative leadership is the way of getting the best out of people, to really get the most out of everyone's creativity, by honoring their humanity and by facilitating conversations that get people to great outcomes together.

Think about the best meeting, the best workshop you've ever been in.

It was done on purpose.

They shaped that conversation.

They asked the right questions at the right time.

They gave the conversation the right amount of space.

They closed things off.

They launched into the next conversation.

They shaped the dialogue well.

And to me, like, that's the future of leadership is being able to shape conversations with yourself. in the one-on-ones that you do being able to do in all hands being able to facilitate a workshop a brainstorm like that's conversational range is to be able to facilitate all of those conversations i don't think you can just be like a you know chomp on a cigar and shout at people like that's does that even exist i mean it probably does but i just think it's dying and so the especially here in this digital space, being able to hold space for creative conversations, for forward-thinking conversations, for difficult conversations, and to lead them to productive outcomes.

To me, that's the skill of facilitation, which is why I'm super passionate about.

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When I say designing conversations, another way of saying that is yeah, leading conversations, facilitating conversations, directing them, shaping them.

You can use whatever language you want, but it's like the future of work is in complex, multi-stakeholder human conversations and navigating them with intentionality.

And that doesn't come for free.

It's work.

Absolutely.

It makes sense.

And for the listeners who are interested in learning more about facilitative leadership.

What would you say is the single greatest skill of somebody who is good at doing this?

In the conversation operating system in my book, there's this idea of invitation.

Invitation is what starts a conversation out.

An invitation can be a push.

It can be a shove.

It can be a pull.

It can be an outstretched hand.

Asking a question that creates the conversation, that draws the circle that you want to create.

That is, without a doubt, the art of invitation, is the ability to frame a question intentionally.

That is what it is all about.

I love it.

Thank you.

Daniel, this has been fantastic.

Thank you.

Let the listeners know again about your book, how they can get in touch with you, and the podcast.

You're very kind.

My podcast is called The Conversation Factory.

It's a little personal joke I made with myself a few years ago, and I'm living with it.

Because we manufacture conversations all the time, every day.

And I'd love to have people poke in on that.

Listen to Kwame's episode.

It's coming out soon.

And my book is called Good Talk, How to Design Conversations That Matter.

If they head over to theconversationfactory.com, they can download some free chapters.

They can download a whole bunch of worksheets from the book.

And I have a whole bunch of other resources there as well.

So that's the place to go, theconversationfactory.com to learn about the book and the podcast.

That was the first part of today's masterclass.

Up.

Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.

Let's keep it rolling.

Kasia, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thanks so much for having me again.

It's been a while.

It has been a while.

So I knew we had to get you back.

And, you know, some big news on your end is a good reason to make it happen.

So how about you reintroduce yourself to the audience?

My name is Kasia Jagodzinska.

I have a dual background in business management and academia.

I'm a professional negotiator, the author of three books on negotiations, high impact negotiations.

I'm based in Switzerland, where I worked as a professor at several universities, actually now cooperating with quite a few all across Europe.

And also I'm a business trainer, business consultant, specializing in difficult intercultural multi-party negotiations.

It's almost like your bio gets longer every time that we talk.

And I forgot to mention the UN advisory, but that falls into the category of the multi-party negotiations.

But Kwame, you yourself are keeping busy.

So I think we're a good match for this type of conversation.

Exactly.

I agree.

And I'm so excited to talk about your new book.

It's so impressive and so needed.

So let me just sit back and give you an opportunity to give us an overview, and then we'll dig into it.

Thank you very much.

The new book is The Financial Times Guide to High-Impact Negotiation.

The reason that I wrote this book is twofold, actually.

I discovered a need for it while working with my business clients, with MBA students that I work with, with the business professionals that I coach and consult.

I noticed that there's something that is missing in the existing negotiation approaches, which is the element of self-empowerment, self-management.

And the underlying foundation of this book and the assumption that I make is that the most important negotiator that you have to convince and win over is, first and foremost, yourself.

So negotiation starts with the management of your emotions, your stress, very often our egos as well.

And only then can it be approached from perspective of an interaction between two parties.

Building on that, I also provide professionals a framework for deciding the whole process, from the beginning to the end, to the execution.

Actually, because a lot of people I call them deal makers believe that a negotiation ends with an agreement, a deal being signed, and so on.

In my opinion,

It ends, especially in today's environment.

It ends with real making, which means that we have a strengthened relationship, but also the terms that we've negotiated are executable, which I think is very important.

This marriage that I call between the transaction and the relational aspects of negotiation.

So, in a nutshell, those were the underlying reasons for this experience, this adventure of writing the next book, which took a lot of energy and brought me great pleasure.

There will not be a fourth for some time at least.

That's great.

That is great.

I heard a great quote.

They say that painters like to paint and authors like to have written a lot of times.

I agree.

I sign my name under that quote definitely for the moment being at least.

I think the next one will be a novel, you know, a negotiation novel.

That's pretty cool.

I'll send you the link to my buddy Brian Ahern's book, because he wrote one that was really really, really good.

Just talking about how influence can permeate your life.

Wow, that sounds interesting.

But today we're talking about the Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiations.

That's why we're here.

I love the fact that you actually took the time to blend that internal negotiation with also with the external negotiation.

Because a lot of times people feel almost as though they have to go one way or the other with their subject matter.

And so it's so important that you blend it in a way that can be respected and understood by people who are having real negotiations.

That matter when there are a lot of things on the line.

Definitely for me.

And you know, it's interesting that you should mention that, because a lot of the time when I watch my clients or When I partake in negotiations, I notice that we are becoming too much, in my opinion, focused on strategies, on tactics.

I heard even the term sometime this week.

Tactical empathy, which for me basically means you know, depicts humans that are no longer behaving or feeling like humans.

And I mean strategies, don't get me wrong.

Strategies tactics, design of the process.

As I mentioned, It constitutes the framework of the book.

And I think that is very, very important that you prepare strategically.

You know which tactics to apply.

But fundamentally, an negotiation is a human to human interaction.

The first human is obviously yourself and some internal processes which will govern the way that you behave, that you interact, that you perceive the reality that is around you.

And only then is the external manifestation possible. of your inner beliefs.

And I think if we don't understand certain fundamental aspects of our own behavior, of the factors that drive the things that we do, it's very difficult to connect on that human level as well.

And I very often notice, especially in the dealing phase, when people exchange demands, they become very cautious in relation to the tactics.

And the more cautious you are the less those tactics are going to have an impact.

And I believe that we need to go back, a step back in time.

We need to go back to the primal drivers of behavior to understand where is this all coming from?

We seem to get lost in multitasking, in a lot of noise around us.

And, as I mentioned, in this tactical toolkit, which is great, as I said, But it's not the only element.

I think that confidence is and understanding yourself and then understanding the other party, and showing them that not technical empathy, but real empathy genuinity, is important and crucial, especially in today's business environment.

Absolutely.

And I think it's.

It's tough for people, especially when they're new to this more human-centered approach to negotiation, to balance those tensions because they say all right, I want to feel comfortable and confident in my approach.

I also want to take the time to make sure that I'm advocating for myself, effectively protecting my interests.

And I also want to try to connect with the other person and empathize. genuinely with them.

But sometimes I think there is a fear that people have that focusing on one necessarily takes away from the other.

So how can you help them to reconcile those tensions?

I think that what you said, it has great value, Kwame.

And I was thinking that first, those who are in power do not need to show and throw the power in the face of other people.

That's not power.

That's very often self-doubt.

That's very often insecurity speaking.

And I think that you have to get your internal house in order first before you externally negotiate.

And that works on both levels.

So process design and here I'm talking about the corporate setting, designing of the process, having a universal approach to negotiations and so on but primarily also understanding who do you admit as a negotiator?

Why do you negotiate?

And That will bring me to my next point how I structured the book and what I failed to see in many approaches.

I start from the mission statement.

Who talks about missions in negotiations these days?

All companies have missions.

If you go on any website, you'll see our mission is, our values are, and so on.

So my recommendation is to think about First of all, why do you engage in negotiations?

Why?

What's your mission?

What do you want to convey?

And by which values do you want to be known as a negotiator?

I think this is something very important, especially now in today's as I mentioned very volatile business environment, economic.

First, it started with the pandemic, you know, the insecurity of what the next day will bring.

And I think we've been living here, especially now in Europe as well, but all over the world where We're living in times of insecurity.

And in such times, we are primarily driven by fear.

Fear is the buzzword that I hear in most of my meetings with my clients.

You know, in training sessions.

Fear the emotional reaction.

You cannot be emotional and rational at the same time.

So if you don't understand where that fear is coming from or that, as you mentioned, confidence or insecurity, you'll not be convincing or you'll not be comfortable in negotiation.

External

And hence, I start the book with three main challenges.

So the book is very practical.

The reason that I wrote it is primarily to provide a guide strategic framework for busy professionals who need a quick reference guide.

Very easy, very straightforward, yet not simplistic how to structure, how to design the negotiation process.

And it starts with the mindset.

In order to empower them, to liberate a little bit and to free up their negotiation prowess.

I start with the main challenges, three categories of challenges that I have observed working at the UN, working with executives, working with MBA students, emotions management, confidence-related challenges and the last category only the last category are strategic challenges.

So the book shares to some extent in confidentiality, without disclosing, of course any information, but it shares the categories and it shares certain statements, certain experiences of business professionals to show others.

I am not alone, that others also share these types of challenges.

And that in itself very often is liberating, because we always feel like, you know, people are watching us, evaluating us, assessing us and so on.

But we really do share a majority of us the same challenges in a negotiation.

So my aim was to provide a guide, but also provide an empowerment tool.

Yeah, this is great.

I like the process of normalization because I think it's hard for a lot of business people to admit the emotional challenges they're having in these conversations.

It's hard for them to be vulnerable with others.

And it's even harder sometimes for them to be vulnerable with themselves, because if you're not vulnerable with yourself and you don't accept the fact that you're feeling these things, then you can't take the steps to overcome those emotions that are holding you back in the moment during the negotiation.

Fantastic.

We said Rami, when listening to you, something came to my mind that it takes power or it takes strength to be vulnerable, to be weak.

So you have to be powerful internally in order to show some vulnerability.

And I think that that brings us to the topic of being genuine, to being real, to being a human.

I'm always very much amused when I get at the EU level or the UN level, when I get mandates on negotiating with governments and with the pharma industry, with big consulting firms, because fundamentally wrong.

The request is wrong because how do you negotiate with the government, for example?

You negotiate with people.

In the end, people that make up the government, but they drive the decision process.

Their preoccupations, their motivations, their fears, their egos, their emotions, fundamentally are at the root of the externalized dynamic.

And I find that fascinating.

And hence, I started studying.

I started my advanced studies in analytical psychology, which i find absolutely fascinating and a great fit for the negotiation landscape as well to understand then, in the psyche, the role of the self, the role of the ego, some internal processes, the shadow, for example, so something that is suppressed in the psyche, the elements that be subconsciously or consciously pushed to the subconscious in our minds, that surface one way or another.

So you know what i'm talking about because you have the degree in psychology as well.

So I think you get where we're going with this.

Absolutely.

And again, listeners.

I really want to hammer this point home because when you take the time to look inside of yourself and negotiate with yourself and exercise some of those demons having that ability to be vulnerable enough with yourself to admit hey, I'm feeling something that provides you with a path to solve that problem and address that and improve your negotiation skills.

Thus far, in this episode of Negotiate Anything, we haven't given you not one tactic, and that's intentional.

Because a lot of times we rely so heavily on these tactics and strategies.

But a lot of times we're doing that because we don't want to do that internal work.

And we hope that the strategies and tactics will help us to overcome those emotional challenges that we're experiencing in the middle of the negotiation.

Exactly.

I mean, the book has some recommendations.

It has some recommendations from, for example, exorcists from China.

Madagascar.

I'm not going to say more.

So that's a little bit of bait to find out more.

Some lessons from the singer's share turning back time and how you could use that turn back time technique to enhance your future negotiation performance.

But let's not be too stingy, Kwame, and let's share a little bit of insights with our listeners.

Maybe we can talk about something that I call the VCR technique.

The VCR.

You know when we used to watch movies.

I mean remember when we were kids it's more or less our generation on those VCR devices and the tapes that you could rewind and fast forward and stop and so on.

So the VCR technique is a visualization, confidence and reenactment technique.

It's built on the external manifestation of of certain internal processes, because we've spoken quite a lot about vulnerability, that it takes strength to be weak.

Let's make it clear that we are not inviting the listeners, you know, to be weak negotiators.

We are inviting them to be powerful people by understanding what drives them and what their vulnerabilities are.

So this visualization means going back, remembering a moment of huge confidence.

So, for example Kwame, it could be for you when you met Whitney or, you know, you had your first baby and you had that great moment of confidence.

I see you're smiling, so I see that brings back.

It wasn't confidence.

But it gave you confidence, I'm sure.

I'm sure it boosted the confidence, so.

I always say to myself in moments of distress in negotiations, when I negotiate on behalf of my clients or I train people and I realize this is a tough negotiation and a high stakes negotiation for them and the pressure is high also for me.

I always say to myself if I could have experienced a moment of confidence before in my life that gave me strength, a boost of energy, a boost of confidence for the future, I can reenact it.

A lot of people don't realize that the brain does not distinguish between reality and imagination, which means that the things that you imagine can have a physiological and even a physical impact on yourself just as much as reality can have.

Which is fascinating, which lies at the baseline of this VCR technique that if it can be.

We have this saying.

I think that if it can be imagined, it can be done.

I would go further.

If it can be reimagined, relived internally, it can be reenacted in the future as well.

Oh, this is brilliant.

And again, this is a testament to your work in the field in general, but also how powerful this book is.

Because you're going to give tactics for the external negotiation and strategies for that, but you're also giving very, very clear tactical guidance for the internal negotiation as well.

You can't just say, hey, be more confident.

That'll make you a better negotiator.

We could say no, you can actually use this technique in order to become a better negotiator by being more confident.

Oh, that's great.

Exactly.

And, as I mentioned, you know, this book has also unfolded and evolved in the course of my work with many professionals across all spheres, all across the globe, and so on.

But it's also enriched with expert testimony, expert interviews.

So you had Gary Nessner on your episode.

Gary is one of the contributors who shares his insights.

Jack Cambria from NYPD is also one of the experts.

Bob Cialdini also contributed with his sharing some of his principles, some of his thoughts on the negotiation process.

And apart from that, I have a lot of business professionals from all across the world, from different industries, all across the organizational level, who have also shared.

So it's not only the process, it's not just the strategies and the psychological empowerment, but it's actually something very practical, that with very practical recommendations, although it's my third book.

I still don't claim that I know it all, and hopefully it stays that way.

So I do also rely and I think that one of the critical elements is also the expert's testimony to see what others, how other people are looking at the topic.

So each chapter of the book is enriched with expert testimony.

That's great, because like you said, it makes it more practical.

And I think it also again speaks to what you were trying to accomplish with empowerment, because our minds will come up with different reasons why certain things wouldn't work in different scenarios.

Because you might say, oh, well, you know, I'm a contract negotiator.

It doesn't work for me.

Oh, wait, there's an example.

But I'm a hostage negotiator.

It doesn't work for me.

Oh, my gosh, it's Gary Nestor.

So it's a great way to demonstrate the general applicability of these powerful principles of psychology and self-empowerment and the negotiation strategies and tactics that can be applied across industries and across domains.

Definitely.

And perception is the only reality.

It's great to see different perceptions, different perspectives on the same theme as well and compare to how other people I know I do that.

You know, I'm always very interested how other negotiators, how they think, how they see things.

You always learn something.

There's always an insight or an angle that you've not thought about.

So I think that's quite a nice element as well.

Absolutely.

Kasia, this has been amazing as always.

I really appreciate you coming on and I know it's late where you are, so I appreciate your energy today.

You're exceptional.

And before you go, please remind the listeners again about the book and how they can get in touch with you.

I will repeat the title again.

It's the Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation.

I actually have it here next to me.

It's a comprehensive guide for executing valuable deals and partnerships.

Our listeners can get in touch with me via LinkedIn or my website, www.negotiationbooster.com.

To close off the discussion Kwame, maybe something that we've not mentioned value creation.

You know, not just deal making, but adding value.

We talked about personal value.

We talked about, because confidence, after all, is one of the fundamental personal values that one can create for oneself in all spheres of life, I would say professionally, personal but also adding value to the partnerships, long-lasting partnerships right now, which I think is a very important aspect.

I agree 100%.

I'm so excited for you.

And thank you for coming on the show.

And thanks again for writing another awesome book.

Thank you for having me.

You're an amazing host.

I love listening to your podcast with other experts.

Usually when I drive in between meetings, It's fantastic the work that you do for me.

So thank you very much on behalf of myself and on behalf of the professional community.

You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next.

A fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge so you can keep expanding your skills.

Let's dive in.

Max, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, it's a pleasure given how many episodes I've listened to.

So to be a part of it is surreal.

Thank you for having No, man, the pleasure is all ours.

So how would you get us started?

By telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure.

I am a person who loves negotiation and like you, sees how often we do it.

And, given that we're all doing it all the time, believes we should be doing it better and more efficiently.

My path to where I am now has been through the program on negotiation at Harvard Law.

I went to the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy to study international negotiation, was lucky enough to TA several of the courses through the program on negotiation, which is fantastic.

I was a senior trainer at Vantage Partners, and I recently spun out my own firm, Max Negotiating.

Fantastic.

So Max Negotiating.

And with your new firm, what types of things are you focusing on?

That's a great question.

The idea is to work with people that are already excited about the possibility of emotional intelligence and what maximizing the potential of human capital can do.

I definitely like working with military clients, as I have in the past, and that's of interest.

I think I'm interested in being as much a part of the public conversation on the way we talk to each other as possible.

And so for me that means public government is exciting.

Dealing with environmental policy, I think, like a lot of what we know with regards to the problems we have isn't what to do, it's how to do it right.

Like we have solutions for the environment.

We have solutions for what to do in terms of violence in prisons, right?

There's a guy, James Gilligan, that I love talking about, that literally has gotten homicide and suicide rates down to nothing and talks about the difference between shame and pride cultures and guilt and innocence cultures, whatever.

The point is we have answers We don't know how to be effective.

And from my perspective, that's what we both do is try and help people with that.

Absolutely.

This is great.

And so listeners, Max and I have had a few conversations now and we are essentially Max is my spirit animal here

I'm flattered.

And that's actually one of the the icebreakers that's used in the negotiation workshop at Harvard Law, which I think is great to say, because I think when people think of negotiation and Harvard Law, they're like oh man, that's white dudes in suits at a conference table.

Okay, fair.

And yes, there are things in the industry that need to change, which we'll talk about.

And the reality of the Harvard Negotiation Project or the program on negotiation is what's your negotiation spirit, animal?

Creating intimate spaces where you can actually develop as a person, And drawing self-portraits of yourself as a negotiator and then explaining them to other people as you start creating a space of growth.

That's fantastic.

That is really great.

Surprising, right?

Right.

Absolutely.

And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show, besides the fact that you are very incredibly knowledgeable on what it is that you do is that you have unique insights on the negotiation industry.

And we've had conversations about this.

And so I know we're going with a scandalous title here the episode of what needs to change in the negotiation industry.

And we're starting to see a very slow shift, but again, it's slow.

And so let's just open up with that simple question.

In your opinion, what needs to change in the negotiation industry?

In short, access.

The trainings and tools and materials needed that are offered by many wonderful and brilliant consulting firms are wonderful.

My understanding is that, going back to the beginning, which for many of the program negotiation people starts with Roger Fisher, the idea is that the more people that understand interest-based negotiation, the better for everybody.

That, whereas we think about strategy as something to dominate the other person.

That's actually incorrect.

That if the other person knows your strategy of trying to surface what you actually care about and to generate options that make you both better off, that is better for everyone.

And I think that's really counterintuitive.

So the idea and again something I can't be on on your show and not just tell you how much I love AI, but something that I like is if you believe in it, give away the tools right.

Like we need more, not less.

And we need people like you.

And ideally hopefully, people like me as well, to help translate in different contexts.

Um, But the idea of holding onto something and trying to sell it as a system I understand like there are business realities and the more people that know this the better.

And the reality is is that people, when they receive the ladder of inference, or seven elements, or any of the wonderful tools that that many people use in some form, they need help applying them.

Great.

Let's do that.

And we need more people to come into the industry.

I say access also, how do you get a job in negotiations?

What does that look like, man?

Like, how did you get into it?

You know, you did law, business school.

You have tons of training.

I mean, I'm also just like genuinely curious about your path to negotiation, because it's always windy.

Yeah.

And it's really interesting Max, because I, when I discovered negotiation in law school, I said I don't know how, but I need to make this my thing.

I don't know how to do it, but I will.

And so I practiced for a while.

I did some civil rights work.

I started my own law firm.

I did some negotiation work.

I was a mediator for some time, did hundreds of mediations through the courts.

And so I was trying to gather up enough reputation points to earn my way to be able to do this.

And then I realized that I'm trying to get these points.

But who is keeping score?

Who am I trying to prove this to?

Because one of the things I was doing for business development for my firm getting more business clients was doing negotiation trainings.

And I had to stop and ask myself this simple question.

If everything in the world was free, what would I do with my time?

And when I'm mentoring people, this is a question I ask them all the time.

If everything in the world was free, what would I do?

And I said OK well, I would do these negotiation trainings.

By far that's the most fun that I'm having with what I'm doing.

And so I said, well, I'm going to do that now.

And so that's when the American Negotiation Institute was born.

And so to your point, how does one get into negotiation as a professional career?

I didn't see the path.

And so I had to make it myself.

Yeah.

Well, I think that's fantastic.

Number one what I hear when you talk about eliminating time and money and responsibility in terms of what you want to do is developing interests or helping people understand their interests.

And when we talk about being a good negotiator, I think we think about smooth talking power, bashing people's bat nuts and calling bluffs.

No, I think a good definition of success for a negotiator is how well are you satisfying your interests?

And guess what?

It's really hard to satisfy your interest if you don't know what they are.

So I love that.

I mean, and also just thematically, when you talk to someone that's excited about negotiation, you'll start to speak the same language.

Like Kwame, we've never met in person.

We've had a few calls but, like I already, I already can see you because you're a person that asks the question, right?

The powers in the question on the answer um, And what I think we do ideally is we don't say we know more than you.

Let me help you.

Though I think sometimes that's the consulting model.

It's more like I've had these humbling experiences, and here are these tools that I still use every day.

Just like Ruth Bader Ginsburg kept a pocket constitution.

In the Harvard Negotiation Project or in other places, you keep the seven elements with you.

Like I still keep it in my wallet.

And that's the idea is that you're never done And that there's this weird tension in trying to market it in the industry, which is to claim expertise, when in reality we know that the way we speak is not necessarily reflective of our current ability, but should just be about our excitement of developing.

Absolutely.

No, that's a really great point.

And again, back to what you said about access, you're spot on.

And I want to revisit that point the counterintuitive reality that if both people are playing from the same playbook, everybody is in a better position.

So let's go deeper into that.

So, from your perspective, not just in the business world but in the world in general, how does the world change if more people have access to this type of knowledge?

I believe that it looks like people living better lives.

And I think it looks like people having better relationships.

I think it looks like teams creating better products together.

I think it looks like realizing potential rather than wasting it.

And that's what, at least for me, when I think about that ineffable something that makes me excited about negotiation that I also hear in terms of I mean like why would you start your own thing unless you loved it?

It's crazy otherwise.

But for me, it's that whole idea is that there's this potential hanging in the balance and it could be discarded or we could realize it.

And negotiation is trying to help people realize that we can be better off when we work together.

And insofar as you're not Henry David Thoreau and you do live in a society, we're all trying to negotiate how to make ourselves better off with other people.

And obviously that's really difficult when it comes to a range of identity and culture.

But generally speaking, I would love the foundation of a new American culture to be strong, ethical and responsible negotiation.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I heard one of my friends actually she's a contract trainer for us too a mediator, Veronica Cravener.

She said that one of the things that she likes to do is try to make sure that she's playing her role in creating a more peaceful society.

And essentially, regardless of the way that you frame it, There's no doubting the fact that the more people that understand this approach, the better the world will be.

And we can't always identify specifically how it's going to get better.

We just know that it will.

And I think we can bring that from the macro back to the micro and say in conversations that I've had I don't always know exactly where it's going to go.

I don't exactly know what their interests are, but I know I have the skills to figure it out.

I know what my interests are and I figure out how we can work together to make things work as much as possible for both parties.

And so even in that micro sense, we don't know exactly what things are going to look like.

We just know that it will be better through this process.

Exactly.

I think it's a combination too, of we are experts in the positivity about the assertion that it could be better.

And we don't know what it will be.

And we can't know because you have to have this regard for other people as thinking autonomous people?

Right.

And I think that's powerful and counterintuitive to approach a student, a teacher, a client, a family member to say I have no idea what's important to you, but could you tell me?

Yeah, it's.

It sounds, it seems like you're giving up the control.

And I think that's one of the things that makes people so scared about doing it this way.

But at the same time, you have to realize that you are gaining more control through the acquisition of information.

And as you get the control, you are wielding that control with benevolence in order to not only help yourself, but help them through the process as well.

Yeah.

You know, I feel stuck between two places.

One is that I recently talked to a group and we talked all about how you have power when you're asking the question and not when you're talking.

And I think for a lot of people and I'll just say I think, men in particular the feeling is I need to be in an active position and that's speaking, not this listening, sitting back passive, whatever you want to call it.

So I think like gender is so involved.

And I know gender is a word that evokes a whole range of emotions for people all over.

But what I mean to say is that the way we talk about conflict and what is active and what is passive, is listening passive or is it active listening?

Are you in control when you're speaking?

Are you in control when you're listening?

Are you powerful when you're loud?

Or isn't it more likely the case that the people who are quiet actually carry more power?

So insecurity is actually loud.

I mean, that's why I talk so much, Kwame.

And so-

Uh, my other experience.

Just to push on this, cause I'm curious what you think is.

I just had jujitsu before this.

I'm a white belt.

Um, I was rolling with a purple belt, who choked me with my own belt, which is a great metaphor, by the way of.

You know um, be careful what you say and what you do, cause it can be used against you.

Um, but I think something that BJ Brazilian jujitsu supports in terms of what you said is don't fight back.

You'll lose energy.

You'll waste energy that's not in your interest.

Try and redirect momentum.

Try and go with it instead of fighting.

And we have this tendency to fight.

And as I was being choked out, yeah, my fight or flight is going.

I feel like I'm drowning.

I just want to go home and cry and be nursed and all that.

And then I think there's a very real point of view from my background in international relations, which is something I said earlier, which is not a line I like, but that the strong will do what they will and the weak will suffer what they must, that this is the foundations of realism.

And so, at the same time that we're talking about really lovely realizations of potential, which I think we really believe in um, I think there's fair pushback, which is okay.

And that's how we should do things.

How about the real world?

What if we grew up in conflict zones?

Um, What if we were even less privileged than we were, right?

Like, what should our expectations be for other people's behavior?

And the best answer I have is the best way to change other people's behavior is to negotiate so well that it's an instructive moment for the other person.

This is great.

Yeah, it's a tool of mutual understanding, right?

And when...

I know sometimes, when I've taken some time just by myself, trying to stay quiet, and I try to do an introspective process, ask myself some questions, discover some things, I'm often surprised at what I can find.

And then often on the other side of that is sitting back in awe of how I am the closest person to myself and yet I knew so little about myself until I took the time to be quiet.

And so recognizing now that we're living in a world with more distractions than ever, where we're busier than ever.

And on top of that, we wear busyness as a badge of honor.

So we try to stay busy, right?

It's very unlikely that the other person is going to take the time necessary to go through that introspective process.

And in many ways you are leading them, like you said, in this process to help them get not only a better understanding of you, not only a better understanding of the situation, but also themselves through the process.

Yes.

I think that a strong negotiation counterpart in some ways mirrors a therapist, in the sense that what you're doing or at least in a certain school of therapy related to unconditional positive regard is what you're doing is you're just reflecting what the other person is doing.

Maybe you say maybe they're yelling at you and you say something like Hey, I don't know if you know this, but you're yelling right now.

Um, and believing that they could, that they will rise to the occasion to be their best selves.

I think this is the reason that talking about fairness and negotiation is so powerful.

No one wants to be the person who is, um, administering unfair treatment.

So when you use fairness or criteria as, as a sword and a shield, that's pretty effective.

Um, And I think that it's also I'm sure you get these questions a lot of like OK well, there's this really toxic person, or this person's crazy, or I have no power.

And then I think that's a thoughtful conversation of how much are you contributing to that narrative and how much of that is the case.

But also, what do you want to do about it?

I totally agree with you.

There's something more when we say negotiation, we're talking about something more.

We're talking about healthy conversations about power, self-worth and how to navigate existing inequality.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And one of the things that I've recognized over the years is that one of the challenges people have is that they look at negotiation as a tool, and it is a tool, but I find it more helpful to look at negotiation as a life philosophy.

And so every single interaction, I'm filtering through this philosophy of negotiation.

And then when you do that, you recognize, okay, there are inequities.

There are power dynamics at play.

There are unique interests for me and the person I'm talking to and other people who aren't even in this conversation but can play a role in implementation or sinking the deal.

And so again it speaks to the value of not just access but also increased awareness overall of when you have the opportunity to negotiate.

Yeah.

And I think something that's interesting and something that I enjoy of the many things about us talking is that look at two people who, from some perspectives, could be labeled competitors.

I don't think I'm at that level, Kwame.

But the idea is, look at this.

We do the same thing.

They're even talking about how our products in some ways aren't differentiated, but we're saying that that's good news.

And so what we're doing to satisfy both our interests is to talk together on a show, and that's good for both of us, right.

So this is the idea of life philosophy.

I'm a little martial arts oriented and playing around with thinking about negotiation as a practice, much like meditation.

And I like what you're saying in terms of the busyness of society, which is that it's really hard to negotiate in the way we're saying when you live in the society we do, when you don't have the timeline or the sense of time that you feel like you need to see another person, or also if you've been raised in a society where you don't feel listened to right.

Like.

My favorite line from this it's like a crisis negotiator handbook is that we don't talk hostage takers out.

We listen them out.

And You might find that some people have never been listened to in this way before.

So you can think about it being a mitzvah or a good deed to just listen to someone.

And guess what?

It strikes me as really good news that that also means that you will probably get more out of it.

But that can't be the reason that you do it.

Absolutely.

It makes so much sense.

And I think this is a good opportunity to circle back to the core question, like the focusing question of this episode.

Considering everything that we just talked about, what is it that needs to change with negotiation?

One of the things that you talked about was access.

Let's go deeper, because right now, like you said, what we're trying to do is yes, this is fun for us, right?

So this is a brainstorming and we're learning together and, at the same time, creating content for other people.

Access has been a challenge.

What was making it so difficult for people to get the access to this information in the past?

I think money.

And when I say that, I'm just talking about the sheer cost of training.

And for people who want to pave their own way, who need to go to graduate school programs to do it, there are all these built-in costs that continue to make negotiation training pretty much reserved for corporations and a luxury market.

And look, I'm a part of that.

I definitely benefited, especially in graduate school, being a TA for these Harvard programs.

That helped a lot.

And I think it's what we're doing I'd like to say, which is to create jobs, which is to say okay, you're interested in negotiation.

Come work at my firm, right?

To proliferate this more and to decentralize power from whether it's Harvard or any other named school or any other organization that's well-funded.

I think we're learning as a country that you need to decentralize power and you need to decentralize the materials, or rather, proliferate the materials and get them out there.

Like I think we were talking about early, which is, rather than trying to make these things a product that are mine and that you can't have, or rather than pretending that I'm a really smart person because of the schools I've went to or gone to see that we need to be humble and demystify it, which is to say the fact that these tools about communication residing in certain places is happenstance and coincidence.

And, with that being said, we also don't need to bite the hands that fed us, which I think is another path coming out of Harvard negotiation, which is to say, I was there, I did all this stuff and I I know better.

Yeah. let's take our negotiation training and say, yes, and.

Yes, this stuff has come out of Harvard and a lot of the foundational stuff.

And what's good about it is not the name on it.

What's good about it is the extent to which it can affect your life.

And that's up to you to decide.

And I think it's for people like us to say, we still struggle with negotiation.

The way we struggle with it is a better process likely.

And we'd like to help you, because when someone else goes through that process and someone's like Hey man, I tried that thing that you did, that you said and it worked,

I'm like, great.

Now you've got the bug.

Now go tell someone else.

Um, I think access is very much democratizing the information and it's also making it accessible.

Absolutely.

No, man, this is great.

This is really great.

And um, Before you go, I want again you to let the listeners know about your podcast that you didn't mention at the beginning.

So you need to mention that.

Sure.

How they can get in touch with you and, again, remind them of the great work that you're doing.

That's so kind of you.

I have a podcast that I co-host with Gwen Krause called Trainer Talk, where those of us who do what Kwame and I do in rooms tell stories personal stories, usually from things we've messed up in that even the expert trainers have learned from.

So TrainerTalk is a space for negotiation trainers to talk shop.

Kwame will have to have you on whenever you have the time and inclination.

Yeah, I have maxnegotiating.com and I'm Maxwell at Max Negotiating.

And I'm genuinely happy to either serve your negotiation needs or direct you to someone who can do it better.

Something surprising in negotiation studies, or whatever we want to call it, is that a difference of preferences is actually value generating.

That there is good news when we don't like the same thing, because that means we can figure out an arrangement between us or amongst us that's higher value for everyone.

We always tell a story, the orange story.

You might tell it.

You may have heard it, right?

Someone wants the fruit, someone wants the peel, but the parent doesn't know that.

So they cut it in half and waste half the value, right?

The idea here is that when we do think differently, when we do want different things, that's actually an opportunity for a better solution.

So I think, whether it's team culture, organizational culture or national culture, the idea of opening up access, far from a rallying cry for communism is is good news for better outcomes, because we're more informed and we make better decisions and can just do more when we have people, when the table's longer.

Right.

Um, and I think people like us that do this are the first to say, come and take a seat.

And I would definitely say for those people who are interested in joining this community, find people that are, that are inviting you.

Um, because I think that's a really good sign that it's a table that, um, You can learn it.

Learn it.

That's great.

Max, thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you again for sharing your wisdom.

And we're looking forward to the next time having you on, my friend.

Thank you so much, Kwame.

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[Mastering Negotiation: A Masterclass in Conversational Design, Mental Models, and Internal Empowerment]-[Win Yourself First — Then Win the Deal]

📋 Summary

Introduction: The Architecture of Dialogue

The Design of Conversations: Rose, Thorn, and Bud

Mental Models: Organizing Chaos

Internal Empowerment and the VCR Technique

Democratizing Negotiation: Access and Philosophy

Conclusion

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[Mastering Negotiation: A Masterclass in Conversational Design, Mental Models, and Internal Empowerment]-[Win Yourself First — Then Win the Deal]

📋 Summary

Introduction: The Architecture of Dialogue

The Design of Conversations: Rose, Thorn, and Bud

Mental Models: Organizing Chaos

Internal Empowerment and the VCR Technique

Democratizing Negotiation: Access and Philosophy

Conclusion

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🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

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