Given all of the work that you've done, why is it that some goals feel effortless and others feel like a chore?
It's such an interesting question.
And that was what I wanted to figure out with this book, because I find, with my own life, I'm productive on a daily basis.
I'm focused on a daily, as you would hope, given I study this stuff for a living.
Looking at the research for this stuff for a living.
But there were still goals that kind of fell by the wayside for me the exercise equipment that was in the basement, that I hadn't really followed through with, things that didn't really fire me up inside, that I found that I wasn't really accomplishing.
That was what set me on this journey.
To write this book is seeing that we all have a graveyard forgotten goals.
Every single person on the planet does.
And so what is it that actually separates the goals that we're able to achieve and follow through with from the ones that were not?
And when you dig into the research on this topic.
So I dug into the academic literature on this topic.
I actually spoke with a lot of Buddhist monks who know more about intentionality than almost any demographic, I would argue, even the scientists that study intentionality and goal attainment, all in an effort to untangle that web of essentially goal attainment right.
Why is it that we attain some goals And others, they feel meaningless.
We procrastinate on them.
We kick them down the street for another day.
Or they're just not something that fires us up inside.
And so you discover a web of factors.
You discover procrastination is one factor. uh, angle, right?
We procrastinate on some things when we follow through on others.
Values are another angle actually, where you know values.
My eyes have always glazed over when I've heard the are you drinking there?
By the way, it looks good.
This is pretty.
Oh, this is I.
I, this is one of the rare times that I'm drinking something that uh, I'm not sponsored by.
This is a wow, this is a bloom pop.
Um, hold on, by the way everybody, everyone's like i want to know what it is.
After procrastination, he was talking about values.
Um, so this is, this is uh, bloom pop.
So my friend, greg lavecchia um, he owns this company called bloom.
They do green strings and uh, this is a like a poppy or an ollie pop, if you're familiar with that.
Um, is that a uk thing?
No, I mean Texas, dude.
Oh, okay.
I'm Canadian, though.
Okay, maybe it hasn't got there.
You guys have just received the fucking wheel.
We're still getting Michael Jackson up.
This Bloom Pop stuff fucking rips, dude.
It's so tasty.
I'm a massive fan of a chilled beverage.
I'm a big chilled beverage guy, so highly recommend.
This is the... raspberry lemonade.
And I'm not sponsored.
But Greg was at my house for um the Super Bowl and he brought around cases and cases of it.
Oh, nice.
Well, shame on him for not sponsoring you, first of all.
But yeah, so there's this web of things that affect how many of our goals we attain.
From procrastinating the answer.
Procrastination to to values, to desire.
There's a lot of science behind desire as well, and social contagion, and so you discover just how many little nodes there are.
But a lot of the little things uh, that that either lead us to do something or not.
They seem to orbit around both aversion, which leads to procrastination, as well as values, which sounds like an incredibly fluffy topic, but I promise it isn't.
There's real science behind that too.
Okay.
Talk to me about the science behind values.
Okay.
Yes.
So whenever I hear the word values, my eyes have glazed over because I think you know, some corporate consultant will come in and they'll give you a sheet of paper and there's a hundred values on it.
And this is exactly what comes to my mind when I've heard it.
And there'll be a hundred words on the page and they'll say circle the, the things that you value most on this page.
There will be words like humor and grace and love and health and fitness all the things that we all care about.
Part of me will want to circle the whole page because I think how can I be against any of this stuff?
But all you have to do to figure out values is go to Google Scholar and type in values.
The research does come right up.
There is incredible research, in my opinion, that was started by Shalom Schwartz he's probably the world's foremost expert on values in the world where essentially there are 12 different fundamental motivations that we all have on a deep and fundamental level.
So these vary from you know.
Looking at you, your self-direction right would be one aspect.
Accomplishment is another.
Strong value for a lot of people.
Um, but it they vary right.
Pleasure is a fundamental human value as well, which is one of my highest.
Self-direction and pleasure are my highest.
So i love going my own way, doing my own thing, thinking my own thoughts, but i love a gigantic plate of butter chicken at the end of the day, for example.
So we all have a different combination of these 12 values.
From self-direction to conformity is actually a fundamental value to tradition.
Humility is a fundamental value as well, to benevolence, so kindness universalism, which is protecting the welfare of people and of nature.
I have the wheel in front of me here, so I'm cheating a little bit with the ones I missed.
So self-direction stimulation, which is loving, novelty pleasure, which is called hedonism in the research, but that has a lot of sultry connotations, I guess.
Achievement, power is a fundamental human value.
Curious, it's lowest overall, cross-culturally especially.
Face is a value, so how you come across to other people, that's what that means.
Security is a fundamental value, so that's personal security and societal security.
That's been going up in recent years.
Tradition got that, conformity, I think I mentioned, yeah, humility, universalism, and benevolence.
So these 12 fundamental values, we are all a distinct combination of these 12.
We have some in spades, like for me, self-direction and pleasure slash hedonism, and some are super low for us.
So power is one of my lowest value, conformity is one of my lowest, tradition is one of my lowest um, and you know, like attracts likes.
So we're probably very similar listeners are probably very similar in these regards, but we all have different values that are strongest for us and these are what motivate us the most on a deep, fundamental human level.
Goals on values though no, no.
So i i so goals.
The interesting thing about goals that I really started to believe in speaking with the monks you're right, goals are not values, but I think goals and values are both almost intentions in our life.
Right, because a value is something that we intend to be over the course of our life, right?
We intend to be somebody who is secure.
And so that might lead us to different priorities, like fitness, for example.
A lot of people invest in fitness for that value of security.
Other people might value the, accomplishment value in becoming fitter.
Other people might, to have a body that they feel proud of, for example.
And goals are intentions as well, right?
Because there's something that we plan to do over a longer period of time.
And values are intentions as well because they're something that we intend to be.
And so this was the very interesting connection is, you know, an intention is just a plan that we're gonna do something.
And so values are a type of intention.
Priorities are a type of intention, right?
Because there's something that we plan to be.
They kind of live between our values and our goals.
Goals are a type of intention, because there's something that we plan to do um prior.
You know, priorities are goals and also the plans that we make, our intentions and the things that we are on our to-do list on a daily basis our intentions.
So this is the fascinating thing.
This is why the book is called intentional, because we have all these different layers of intention in our life and so by understanding these layers and how they can work together with one another, that becomes a superpower.
That is one of the best things that we can do for goal attainment.
Okay, explain to me how all of these different things slot together.
I imagine that you must have a hierarchy of the way that these things end up becoming a pyramid.
Yes, oh yes, they are kind of shaped like a pyramid, because you can think of the i'm flipping through the book, i don't what, what.
What's the ratio between how many people listen to these things versus watch uh, your interviews?
Now that you can do video on spotify uh, the audio platforms aren't even insulated from having to look at us, So it's pretty high.
I mean, even just YouTube versus Spotify is nearly pretty 50-50.
There's a lot.
Audio's huge, yeah.
Audio's actually probably about 60%.
Okay.
Yeah, it's...
A lot of people will be looking, but you might have to describe what you're about to show for the people who aren't.
I was just flipping through the book while you were chatting and there's one of my wife's hairs on the book for some reason.
So this is something in the book that I call the intention stack.
It's flipped on my screen, but it'll probably flip back properly.
Okay, perfect.
So you can see… How's this for production quality?
Holding up a picture from… Elite.
Absolutely elite.
This is top-tier, S-tier production quality right here.
So you can see that the width of one of our intentions is how long we express it over, right?
So at the very bottom of this, it's kind of shaped like a funnel almost.
We have our present intentions.
These are the things that are on our to-do list, right?
We have a tiny intention to tie our shoelaces to go for a run or something.
And then we have above the present intentions.
Now you got me all self-conscious because so many people watch your podcast.
I'm thinking, how are my nails today?
Because my nails are- You look fantastic.
So above the present intentions we have are our plans, which are a bit broader.
So a present intention to tie your shoelaces might fit into a plan to go for a run.
And that might fit into even something broader than that which is a goal to run a marathon in a certain amount of time which might fit into a broader intention than that called a priority, which might fit into becoming ultra fit, which might fit into a value which we talked about.
So fitness value actually varies depending on gender, which is interesting for fitness type priorities where, as women are more likely to see becoming fitter as an expression of pleasure because they feel better in their bodies, whereas men tend to err more on other values like security, feeling strong and stable in their body, as well as values like accomplishment.
So this is what I call the intention stack in the book, where there's this beautiful alignment that can happen when we have a goal that we set, which is kind of a medium term intention in our life, when that is aligned with a value that becomes far, far more motivating than a goal that isn't.
So, to keep with the fitness example, I think a lot of us build our fitness goals around the value of face.
How we come across to other people.
I want six-pack abs by beach season so I can look incredible.
Whatever it might look like.
I like butter chicken too much for goals like that.
You sound like a true Canadian.
Yeah, yeah.
Poutine, beaver tails, you know, hit all the Canadian staples.
Poutine is actually delicious.
You know poutine, right?
Yeah.
Okay, okay, good.
I'm happy that that is one of our strong cultural exports.
But if you don't value, face that goal to look a certain way by a certain amount of time, that's not going to be motivating for you and you're going to find that you have this, this headwind for the goal, all throughout the process where if you value security or benevolence, for example, having a goal to develop an incredible cardiovascular system for longevity and to be able to play with your grandkids late into late age, whatever it might look like, that's far more aligned to not only your values but because your values make up who you are, there's that motivational alignment too.
And so goals feels far more effortless in that way.
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Why is it the case then that intentions feel slippery?
Because a lot of the time we have, we start off with an intention.
And over time, we end up doing things that aren't aligned with that intention.
Now, sometimes that's because we've genuinely upgraded to something new.
Our intention has been supplanted by a different one.
But other times it just feels like we're not acting intentionally.
We kind of look back on our day and we ask ourselves, what did I contribute to or what did I do?
And you don't really know.
What do you think about intentionality as an idea?
Yeah, so that's the interesting thing about intention.
So intention at the same time is not only the key to accomplishing our goals, it often leads us to not accomplish our goals.
So we have the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right?
And I've really started to see goals as something different over the course of writing this book and chatting with the scientists, but also, more so, chatting with the Buddhist monks in writing this book.
There's kind of a reframe.
I think that we have to go through with the goals that we set, where we see a goal as something that we are going to accomplish, or that we should compare our results to right.
But I've started to view goals and I think this is a much better frame for them as almost a prediction.
Every goal is a prediction at where you believe your current and your planned actions will take you.
And so so often those predictions, those goals, which are really predictions in disguise, they turn into expectations for how things will go, which then turn into disappointment, when we inevitably aren't predicting the future properly, which we're horrible at predicting the future right.
We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.
We don't know if the hot water tank is going to break in our house and flood our basement and upend all of it.
We don't know if a kid is going to get sick and have to stay home.
We don't know how things are going to end up.
But when goals are just predictions in disguise.
I really think we have to internalize that idea and edit our goals as we go on right.
Because we develop this attachment to how we believe things are going to go.
And so we set a goal, we develop an attachment to it, turns into an expectation, which turns into an inevitable disappointment, usually.
To take New Year's resolutions, for example, which have mostly fallen by the wayside.
By the time, people will listen to this podcast or watch it.
92 of us fail at the New Year's resolutions we make because we set them with these beautiful hopes right.
We're like that classic trope of Somebody who just arrived in New York City and they you know She she hops off the bus and she's got this big smile on her face and then, you know, cut to a year later when all the future that she didn't predict ends up happening, and then you know she's in her one bedroom apartment looking all sad or something.
The same thing happens with our goals, because they really are predictions in disguise.
So holding them a bit more loosely, and i think editing them and dropping them, is also a really helpful strategy.
Seeing them is not something that's fixed, but that we need to revise over time and then often drop when they're not working out, is an incredible strategy for actually following through with them, because we get closer to what we actually want.
There has to be a difference between Default intentions and deliberate intentions, though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this was a surprising thing that really came up in the research, where you know you think of an intention as being always deliberate, right.
You know, we intend to do something, so we do it or not, right?
A lot of the time.
But there really are these two types of intentions.
So like I was saying a little bit ago, an intention is just a plan that we're going to do something.
And we set plans to do things both automatically, right, which are called habits, right?
So you wake up in the morning and maybe your phone wakes you up, and so you tap, you swipe around between a few different apps and you respond to stuff.
That's habit energy, which is what monks call, you know, just living on our default intentions.
But eventually, A time will come when you snap out of those default intentions that you have.
When you're lying in bed, you're not really feeling what you're doing, and so you think okay, what do I really want here in this situation?
What do I really want to get out of my day?
What do I really need to accomplish?
We all have these little moments of awakening where we go from being on autopilot mode, just doing things in response to whatever is happening around us, to tapping into something that is called our self reflective capacity, which is our ability to look inward, to where we really wish to be going, what we really want to be getting out of a situation.
And interestingly, so we go from living on default intention to these deliberate intentions.
And we snap out of just this autopilot mode and really decide where to go.
It's quite a beautiful transition, actually.
The more we do that, the more you know deliberately intentional we become and the more we end up accomplishing of what we want.
Right, we need these moments of awakening.
Where do our defaults come from?
Oh, i love these questions.
Um, they come from a lot of different places.
So i remember early on in the writing journey asking a monk where do intentions come from?
In general,
And he listed a lot of different sources that actually mapped on top of the research from the social environments that we're a part of.
We have this phenomenon of social contagion, where there's the classic saying we're the average of the five people we spend our most time with.
We have our desire to avoid pain and experience greater pleasure.
We have.
So that leads us to walk up and say hi to somebody at a cafe or just connect with somebody or go on Tinder whatever it looks like right.
But we have our biology too, which is probably connected a little bit with the Tinder example.
But we're on a road trip, for example, and we feel the urge to go to the washroom, and so we set an intention to stop at the next rest stop, for example.
So those are the more default places that intentions tend to come from.
But then we have this gradient where we transition from living on default, living on autopilot mode, just not really achieving the goals that we set, but doing fine.
We're kind of maintaining the life that we have.
We go from being on deliberate or default autopilot mode to being more deliberate about what we do.
So one of those places that intentions come from are the lessons we've learned, right?
So you listen to an incredible book, a great podcast, you read a book, you listen to Chris or the other Chris me sharing ideas, or whatever it might look like.
You learn something, And what that does is it puts a learning loop in your mind so that when you encounter the same situation in the future, you'll respond with a different intention from the one that you had originally.
And the deepest ones come from a place beyond that.
I think one of the times I was on in the past we were chatting about scatter focus, this mind wandering mode where we just let our mind roam free and we find that it wanders to the future a remarkable amount of time.
48 of the time that our mind is wandering, it's thinking about the future.
So you know, we're taking a shower, for example, or we're going for a run, we're going for a walk and we're listening to classical music or something with a notepad in our pocket, and we always unearth ideas, we always unearth plans and we always tap into this intentional capacity that's in our mind to set different intentions from the ones that we would be doing on default.
So it looks very interesting in practice where, you know, often becoming more intentional to break out of the mold.
It looks like more wandering sometimes, because that gives us a different way to go than the one that we would be inclined to do by default.
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It's interesting the difference between giving yourself enough room so that you can actually allow ideas to come to the surface.
You can't white knuckle creativity to the line that I love.
So it sort of needs to emerge spontaneously, but also that gets perilously close to not taking the wheel, which is just living on default intentions and not really having that much structure and not really choosing the direction that you're going in or taking agency.
Life happens to you, you don't happen to life.
And yeah, I think a lot of people struggle with the tension between structure and sort of serendipity might be a good way to put it from a cognitive standpoint.
Yeah, and it's very interesting the little gaps in our day as well, where that's sometimes where our greatest intentions come from.
You know, it's in these little moments between things.
So you know if we're having a conversation.
If right after this conversation we pick up our phone or something, intentions might never occur to us, that would be incredibly valuable to us both.
If you're walking to a meeting or something, you're at your office or something, you're walking to a different office in your building and on the way there you're on your phone.
Intentions aren't going to occur to you because you don't tap into this wandering mode.
So there really are these two levels of wandering where we have the little gaps in between the things that we do, Especially before and after we do something.
That's sometimes the most fruitful time to wander, because beforehand you set an intention, because you're thinking about the future and the impending thing is so front of mind that you're more likely to wander to it than about half the time.
It's probably closer to 75, 80 of the time that you'll be thinking about the future, just automatically setting intentions.
And after too, it's the learning loop, where you can set different intentions or think of action items from a meeting or something as simple as that.
Or you have a meaningful conversation at a coffee shop with a good friend or something.
And so you can reflect on it on the walk back home, instead of just filling your attention to the brim or distracting yourself.
You can actually internalize something that leads you to set different intentions later on.
And so the default intentions that we have, a lot of them are habits.
But we need some reinforcement mechanism, almost so that the more deliberate things we do can change our defaults, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does.
I think I got a bit of stick for suggesting that New Year's resolutions are important on a podcast a couple of months ago.
I'm not saying that there's anything special, particularly about January 1st.
But the point that I did think was kind of interesting is that people are already obsessing over the future and ruminating about the past.
They're just doing it in an unstructured way.
Yeah right, so it's just invading your life, it careens into consciousness.
You don't know where it came from, you don't know how long it's going to linger.
You can't get rid of it.
Yeah, and then it leaves and you go.
I, i guess That was kind of like me planning and reflecting, except for the fact that it felt bad.
I didn't mean it to happen.
I was supposed to be doing something else and it wasn't in any way productive or contributing to my life.
Like, okay, why don't we then...
Every so often, just take a little bit of time, take a downbeat.
But speaking of that, you know years resolutions, kind of one of the go-to garden variety productivity tools.
Smart goals are another one.
And you seem to take a bit of issue with smart goals, something that every business needs.
Undergrad from all time.
Just become familiar with.
What's your issue with smart goals?
Yes yes seriously, i i actually have never had an issue with them um, until i encountered the research on them.
So i, i personally thought smart goals would be a shoe-in for this book and, because i've written about them in the past, they sound incredible.
Right, these goals that are specific measurable attainable, realistic and time-bound smart.
Right, it sounds like it should work.
Right, you know they're smart.
Why would you set dumb goals or something, um?
But then you look at the research on them where and if you don't believe me, you know, and i i hope to actually stir up a bit of controversy with this, but i can't wait for the productivity community to be up in arms.
They'll be using the alfred extensions and their notion templates to send you big, long arguments about why smart goals are actually underrated and overrated.
Yeah, They're going to have their keyboard maestro scripts automatically interact with code co-work to do a deep research into just what's wrong with me, or something.
I don't know.
But it's so interesting because I thought they'd be a shoo-in for the book, right?
Aren't specific goals incredible?
Don't we want our goals to be attainable?
That sort of thing.
But when you look at the research and if you don't believe me, go to Google Scholar and type in smart goals.
You'll see what comes up.
You might be as surprised as I was.
It turns out realistic goals often aren't good enough.
We're limiting our potential when we make a goal merely realistic.
Because when we make a goal challenging, the research shows we actually achieve more than we would otherwise by simply making it kind of a low-hanging bar or something that we can just step over.
And there's also redundancy in the criteria, right.
So aren't specific?
Aren't measurable goals also specific?
For example um, and i looked in the into the research on where did this actually come from?
And it came from the smart goals originated as an article in a management review.
Uh, it wasn't an academic journal, it was just kind of an article somebody wrote on how to better manage your employees, and it didn't stand for what the current acronym does today, and so it's kind of like the you know, the 10 000 uh step rule or the 10 000 hour rule, these nice kind of things that sound like they should work.
And so there's a, a virality that's associated with it, that kind of gets morphed in a cultural game of telephone ever since they were introduced.
And so this was actually quite a big surprise for me because these sound so good.
And I remember you know, encountering this research, writing about it in the book.
I actually had a little bit of a chapter drafted about SMART goals.
And so.
But I thought okay, I need some research backing here.
You know did, did a deep dive into the research and found that there's.
You know, a lot of researchers say that there's even research waste that occurs around SMART goals, because It seems like they make sense to study.
So many businesses do them.
I can't wait to hit the speaking circuit for this book and tell every business.
Ruin everyone.
Yeah, exactly.
Really just cause controversy within all these companies and stuff productivity controversies are probably the lowest stakes and least important controversy you can ever imagine.
There's some political ones at the moment that seem equally stupid, but yeah.
Yeah yeah, there's stupid controversy and enough of it to go around it at any given time in this kind of outraged driven algorithmic world that we're in.
But yeah, smart goals, maybe we should have something, because then we could set actually better goals that are rooted in not only our values, right?
We can edit our goals over time so that they're better fit for our values.
We can actually overcome a lot of the things that are getting in the way of our goals too, like a lack of alignment with the social environments we're a part of, like procrastination, which is another, a huge, huge inhibitor to just how much we're able to accomplish in our day, in our life.
Yeah, let's talk about procrastination.
Like I have to assume procrastination gets in the way for lots of people that there's a thing they understand, their intention, it hasn't got slippery, it hasn't dropped out of their mind and, for some reason, the thing that they need to do in order to move themselves toward achieving the intention, for some reason they can't.
They can't get started or they keep on stopping or something.
So what did you learn procrastination big picture?
Yeah.
So big picture, very big picture.
There are.
For any goal, we have this function of desire um where we either desire doing it, which is usually aligned with our values.
Actually,
So the more aligned.
Something is with what we value.
That's our motivational nature, our unique motivational nature, I should say.
Um, and so that's the desire component, the values component, but then there's the aversion component, where
To get how much you actually care about something or want to do something, you have to subtract how much aversion you have to doing it from the amount of desire.
And sometimes we end up in the negative.
And so there's a lot of goals that we don't want to follow through with.
There's a negative amount of energy around that goal.
And so we punt it down the street for a later day.
It's called procrastination.
But the interesting thing about procrastination is it's a purely visceral and emotional reaction to something that we don't want to do.
There's very little logic embedded within it whatsoever.
So it turns out that there are certain triggers that a task can have that lead us to a greater amount of aversion, which leads to procrastination.
So those are whether something is boring.
More boring something is, the less we want to do it.
Frustration is another one.
So the process of doing something is very frustrating.
Unpleasantness, right.
It's just something's just not pleasant to do when something's far away in the future, right.
The further away something is, the less we desire to do it, because we can justify to ourselves.
We don't feel the impending deadline of having to do it.
When something is unstructured as well, that's another trigger of procrastination.
And the interesting thing about that is that one kind of frustrates me, because you know you can structure things.
You know if you feel aversion for that reason.
You know if you don't want to go to the gym because you have no workout plan or something that's very solvable, right.
The other ones are kind of uglier, they're messier.
Take me through the list from the top again.
Yes.
So boring, frustrating, unpleasant, far away in the future, unstructured.
And the final one is meaningless.
So it's not aligned with our values, which we've, which we've covered.
Okay.
What are the Easiest solutions for people.
Yeah.
There's some of those feel a little redundant, like boring, frustrating.
Yeah.
Uh, meaningless.
Like they they, they feel I don't know where we're playing semantic games here, but they seem a little similar.
What's the 80, 20, what's the 80, 20 of people overcoming procrastination?
Mm is something unstructured, structure it.
You know that that's the lowest hanging fruit for for procrastination, and usually you'll find when you cross-reference and you're right there, there is overlap.
You know there is some debate in the research on whether these are distinct characteristics of tasks.
Um, but generally you know you can kind of, Because you'll find that when something's aversive it sets off multiple ones right.
You don't want to do your taxes because they're boring, they're unstructured, they're frustrating, they're unpleasant.
And so you procrastinate.
Maybe they're you kick them down the street for a later day.
But structuring things is some of the lowest hanging fruit you can do.
So how could you add structure to doing your taxes?
Can you just hire somebody to do it, right?
Delegating something is the easiest way to overcoming procrastination on it when it's something that's delegatable.
So add structure and go back to goal editing, right?
If you have a goal that's really aversive for you, but it's still on your list and you really see the tangible payoff of having done it.
Not of doing it, not the enjoyment of doing it, but the tangible payoff of having done it.
Edit the goal so it's more in line with your values, right?
Turn the goal from that six-pack abs by beach season face goal into that goal of having a feeling secure in your body that your heart isn't going to attack you in retirement or something right.
Connect with the deeper meaning behind it and connect with your top two values, for example.
But also, do what you can to make it an actual enjoyable process for you.
And this goes back to the unstructured nature of a goal, um where also unpleasant presumably.
Yeah, also unpleasant, also boring, you know um frustrating.
You know, a few of these different things at once can you do it over?
I don't know a fancy latte.
Can you have a resistance list?
This is one of my favorite productivity strategies, where make a list of everything you're resisting doing and then a set of rewards that you can treat yourself when you do those things.
Maybe assign a number of points that you can redeem for those rewards or something.
I call them habit points in the book.
There are ways of making the process more enjoyable, making a game out of something that you don't want to be doing. um so upping that enjoyment level however you pos having a you know glass of wine or whatever that colorful drink is that you're having while you're and saving it for that period period of time habit stacking right where you invest in the habits that you are kind of like guilty pleasures almost on some level.
Investing in those when you do the aversive things.
But there's so many different, overcoming the resistance level we have to things that we can do.
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What about the I get?
I'm thinking about stuff that's just going to be tough, that you're just sort of facing and there's not really anything.
The sacrifice reward dynamic.
There's no way around this and it's just going to suck.
I guess you could try and stack listening to good music that you enjoy at the same time.
You could go to the coffee shop to try and make it a little bit easier.
I'm just wondering how people can.
How many times has someone Right?
I've got my favorite song on.
I've gone to my favorite coffee shop, my latte, and fuck, I opened Instagram.
Shit.
Yeah, and so this comes down to often giving yourself no choice but to do something.
You know, Freedom is one of my favorite apps on the computer for this reason.
I'm not affiliated.
Much like you and that drink, this podcast should be sponsored by, what's the name of it again?
Bloom Pop.
Bloom Pop.
Um, and freedom, uh, free freedom is one of my favorite apps.
So are you, are you familiar with it?
Do you use it?
I use cold Turkey, which I think is something similar.
Yeah.
Same difference.
Freedom, cold Turkey.
Uh, I think self-control is another one where essentially, you disable access to a lot of the things that you find more attractive than the thing that you really ought to be doing, than the thing that you want to be doing over a broader period of time.
So personally, whenever I write, I find I gravitate to things that are more interesting than writing.
I'll want to check my email one more time.
I'll want to fire up social media.
I'm not big into social media but sometimes I'll fire up social media see what my friends are up to check the news, whatever it might look like.
And so freedom disables the things that are more attractive on your computer than what you ought to be doing.
You can specify a block list ahead of time.
So even if you want to access these things, you have to restart your computer if it's in the time period that you specify.
Another one of my favorite habits is aversion journaling.
So what I'll do is I'll grab my notepad, which is always by my side as I work, and my Pilot Precise V5 RT pen which, as long as we're throwing productivity fire out there or whatever It try, try to cause controversy.
This is the best pen available.
You can come out pen available.
Yeah.
It's the best pen available.
What makes it the best pen?
Oh, have you tried writing with a, what's it called?
Pilot precise V five RT, Chris.
No, no.
Tell me about it.
What's the experience like?
Oh, well, it won't come through in video, right?
This is the same as who's your girlfriend in school.
And it's like, oh, she goes to a different school.
You wouldn't know her.
Hey no no no no, i promise, i promise it costs like two dollars.
People can try for themselves.
You'll never go back.
My wife and i got in an argument one time um, because i said the pi, you know, i know what the best pen is, and she said no, i know what the best pen is.
And we had this argument before sharing what pen we were talking about.
It turns out we were both talking about the pilot Precise V5 RT.
But what I'll do with the Pilot Precise V5 RT is rolls right off the tongue, doesn't it is?
I'll grab the notepad and I'll do some.
I call it aversion journaling where, when I find that I'm resisting doing something, I'll write down why.
And it won't.
Sometimes it'll be as methodical as going through Each of the triggers.
You know, is it boring?
Yeah.
Is it frustrating?
No, but it's really boring.
So I'll go through the triggers sometimes, or it can be more loosey goosey, more casual.
You know, I'll just grab the notepad and start writing.
Why do I find this thing so ugly?
And what can I do about it to counterbalance that ugliness?
To make it less aversive.
And I always leave with some tactical thing that I can do to make it less ugly for myself.
And if not that, my relationship with it changes a little bit.
I understand what makes it so aversive.
And so give yourself a choice to either do some aversion journaling or do the thing.
And so eventually the time will and you'll gravitate to the journaling at first, but you'll end up untangling the knots that you have to doing something and overcome that resistance to doing it.
It's an interesting tactic, but it works almost without fail for me personally.
I think it will for readers, listeners too, viewers.
What about the difference between ugly goals and attractive goals?
Because there's some, again, I'm trying to think about as much objection handling as possible.
There are some things that are just funner goals than others.
There are some goals that are uglier and some goals that are more attractive.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's just every goal is a bit different on that fundamental level.
And so you know, often you'll edit a goal and you'll get it to as good, in good as shape, as you possibly can.
And it's still ugly.
It's still fugly in a lot of cases.
And so you got no choice at that point to decide, is this goal worth pursuing?
And sometimes the fact that you have tried to edit a goal extensively and you still find it ugly.
Sometimes that's a sign that it could be worth dropping, when it's just fundamentally not aligned to who you are and what you care about.
But then you have the goals on your list.
That's like you know lower my cholesterol, or something which probably few people want to do, but if your cholesterol is high you should probably do it.
And so then you have the goals that you really ought to be achieving.
And so the litmus test is, you know, is thinking, okay, will I be happy that I did this thing?
And what tangible difference will it make to my life?
Because I forget who said it.
But somebody said you know, for our days to be different, our life needs to be different.
I think you know you can kind of transpose those.
For our life to be different, our days need to be different.
What do your goals look like on a tangible daily basis?
Because another trap we fall into a lot of times.
I call them sepia-toned goals, where we have these beautiful fantasies of just exactly how different our life will be after we integrate a change into our life.
The one that comes up for me is waking up at 5.30 every morning.
So I love this idea of being an early riser.
And I've struggled and I've integrated this goal into my life several times.
Actually, where I'll wake up at 530, I'll do all these things that feel like they should be good in my head.
I'll meditate like I usually do when I wake up.
I go to the gym, I'll read the paper.
I was gonna say still get the physical paper, but I'm not that old.
I read the physical paper though that arrives every morning, all these holy things with the morning.
But then I realized that I absolutely hate the ritual.
Right, i have to go to bed in order to get a good enough sleep.
When people want to hang out, when good hockey games are on when, when shit's actually happening, that's interesting in my life.
Um, and so there's this idea of a change, sometimes that is sepia toned, that leads to these tangible changes that we don't really actually want.
And, by the way, for waking up early if you're a night owl like I am, that actual research on it, I believe by Till Ronenberg, has found that there's no difference in somebody's socioeconomic standing based on their wake up time.
So people who wake up at 8 am are just as successful as people who wake up at 5 am, but it's how deliberate, how intentional we are with our time that makes the biggest difference.
Still wake up at 7.30, 8, read the paper, meditate.
Everything is just shifted over.
How many goals do you think people have that are just socially acceptable cosplays of ambition?
I think so many people love the idea of saying that I have this goal.
Maybe the reason that lots of people aren't achieving their goals and their intentions is that if they were to look a little bit more closely, they'd realize that they weren't theirs.
They're doing it as this sort of cool, trendy T-shirt that they can wear, that when other people ask them what their goals are, they can say oh, I'm doing a keto diet, or I'm doing meat and fruit at the moment, or I'm microdosing.
But that's not actually what they want.
It's what they want other people to hear them saying that they want.
Yeah, yeah, I'm microdosing meat and fruit, whatever it is.
That's such a big part of it.
And so, one tactic that I'm a big advocate for is keeping a list of your goals.
And I divide mine based on context.
So personal and work and inside, I list the goals under the values that they're a part of.
And when I started doing this, I did realize that there were a lot of goals on the list, like waking up early is one of them.
Where I feel it's still interesting.
You know the guilt that we experience when we don't follow through with the expectations that other people have of us, like waking up early.
So I know all the research, and I know what works for me.
I know what my biological prime time is, which is when we're wired to perform.
I know all these things.
I know I have a better life.
I enjoy life more.
I do better work.
I create better things when I wake up later.
But still I feel guilty when I roll out of bed at a later hour than you know, than whatever uh, deemed justifiable in my head.
And so there there is this.
You know i, i love, i love the cosplay um uh phraseology that that you use and it.
It's interesting because i, i feel our relationship is different depending on our values.
In that context where, you know, conformity is one of the fundamental human values, some people do value conformity and so, if that's you which is probably unlikely, if you're listening to this podcast, but i was hanging out with with a couple people last night, who's you know, they identified that as one of their highest values, which I found interesting.
But if that's a high value for you and there's a goal that other people expect you to achieve, What the research shows is you will actually find it meaningful to achieve that thing because you're living within the expectations that other people have of you.
But if you don't have that value which it's low for me, it's probably low for you too, knowing you to some extent, you're not gonna find much meaning.
And you know, for me my value of self-direction is so highest the highest by a wide, wide margin and my value of conformity is so low that if I feel I have to do something, that'll make me not want to do it, it'll make me want to rebel against the expectations other, other people have of me.
But there still is that fundamental guilt.
So it really is a you know so.
So it's kind of like when you ask somebody how you know how's work for you and they say oh, i'm so busy, you know, i have so much going on, where the busyness People overestimate how long they work for, first of all, but second of all, they wear that busyness as almost a badge of honor of oh, the world needs me so much and I'm so wanted by the world, so needed by the world, so I'm so busy.
We have kind of a similar status projection with our goals sometimes.
But you know, tapping into that, that's what makes tapping into that self-reflective capacity just so much more important.
If we never tap into our self-reflective capacity, we'll never truly get what we want.
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Yeah, I suppose.
Look, social pressure is a hell of a improver.
It's a hell of a assistance when we want to try and get something done.
It's why you train harder when you're in a class than when you're on your own, typically.
I guess, how can people make their goals and intentions feel deeper?
There's certainly some that resonate with us a lot, and then there's others that don't so much, but we wish that they did.
Is there something we can do to make goals sort of feel deeper?
Yeah.
So the values component is one, and that's a big one.
And there is, you know, you're touching on the social environments that we're a part of.
There are kind of a lot of productivity extremists out there.
I call them.
You know people who you know they'll say never surround yourself with people who don't support you and your goals.
But life is just more complex than that.
You know, we have good friends that have bad habits, you know, speaking personally.
When I'm around family.
I'm not going to call anyone out, but a lot of their habits aren't conducive to the goals that I have.
But still I'd be cold and heartless to to, to weed them out of my life.
For so you know some but but but there are is kind of positive social contagion that i think we can introduce for a lot of our goals, where if you have a big new goal, a big new habit that you're trying to integrate into your life, you can really reflect.
Okay, how can i actually double down on how much contagion I'm experiencing for this goal?
And so there is that level of deliberateness that we can layer on top of whatever that goal is.
Can I join a running group? if my intention is to get a certain workout time or a certain run time.
If you're joining a knitting group.
I used to be a bigger knitter than I am right now and I wanted to get more into it because it's a great way to scatter your attention.
Yeah.
There's a knitting store in the city that I used to live in.
I'm not a good knitter by any stretch, but I found it a great way.
I love the smirk that you have right now.
It's like I'm blown away by the fact that there's people getting together like CrossFit on an evening.
Oh yeah.
Cross knit.
Yeah.
Cross knit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That'd be good.
Yeah.
Well, I'm no good.
Like I can make dishcloths and stuff but um, but when I was a part of the knitting group in the city that I used to live in man, like my level of improvement with that habit was a different curve than it is right now.
If anything, it's uh, i'm kind of letting the habit die right.
There's a knitting store in the city that i used to live in which which hosted this kind of meetup.
All you know, older women, the some of the Like my favorite people in the world, were in that group.
And so you know, having that social contagion can really support you in the habits that you want to form.
That's one way to make it deeper.
Nothing feels deeper in our life than human to human connection.
All right.
Taking all of this together, what's the structure?
Someone is bought into the fact that intentions are important.
They realize that procrastination's there, they've got goals, they've got actions, they've got daily purpose.
All the rest of this stuff.
What's the best way to put this into a format to follow?
How should people design better intentions?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so it's interesting.
Something that I really believe now is becoming more intentional is a skill that we can get better at over time.
So you know, if you look at your level of follow through, The book was originally called Follow Through, but it has weird connotations in the UK that I was not aware of.
You're probably familiar with them, right?
Follow Through, yes.
Yes.
People can go on Urban Dictionary in their own time.
But if you're looking to increase your level of follow through with your goals, I should say…
It'll make sense when you look it up.
That was like totally out of left field for me having to rename the book because it was such a good encapsulation.
It was originally called Follow Through?
Yes, it was.
Wow.
Well, no, you only need to rename it in the UK.
It would have been fine in the US.
Yeah, in the US it would have been fine.
The UK publisher really, and marketing is so awkward when you have differently named books.
I'm fortunate that only my subtitles have been different across geographies.
But realize that increasing your level of follow through is really a skill that you can get better at over time.
Maybe you set goals, you set intentions right now.
Maybe for a given goal, you follow through with it.
Let's say the default, right?
8 of the time we follow through with our New Year's resolutions.
Maybe when you resolve to do something big you follow through with it eight percent of the time.
But you can build this skill of intentionality and you can build these practices of intentionality.
For you know, there's the obligatory ugly stuff lowering your cholesterol.
You can deploy the procrastination habits on those.
So, just looking to get started on something, one of my favorite tactics out there is shrinking your resistance level to doing things.
So if you're writing a book, for example, and you have freedom on or something cold turkey on, but you're still resisting it, you can shrink how long you do it for until you overcome that resistance, right.
It adds structure.
It makes it less boring, less frustrating, all that stuff.
So you might think, okay, do I want to write for an hour?
No way in hell.
What about 45 minutes?
No.
What about 30?
What about yeah 20, I could write for 20, and.
And so you overcome that resistance by shrinking how long you do something for being kinder to yourself in the process.
So you know.
So the procrastination for the obligatory ugly things, the procrastination tactics are very helpful for those, but usually there's more latitude in editing our goals than we believe, right.
So maybe there's some project that you don't wanna do.
One example, Maybe you have to write some employee handbook or something.
And so on your to-do list, it's write employee handbook.
Or maybe you're making the list of goals, it's write employee handbook.
And that's aversive, right?
It feels like something you have to do, which fits with that value of conformity.
But maybe you edit it.
Maybe your biggest value is benevolence, so helping other people.
Maybe it's self-direction, so going your own way.
And so a better goal, a better frame for the goal might be, you know, mentor new employees and get creative with the handbook project, so you might actually perform the same set of actions under each goal.
But one feels like something you have to do that isn't aligned with what you value.
The other feels like something that is actually connected with with with what truly motivates you on that deep, fundamental human level.
So know your top values as well.
So you know we mentioned the 12 of them earlier in the podcast.
Won't go through them again.
We've already talked about them.
But what top two are the strongest for you and how can you align more of your goals to them?
Right, the easiest way to tell if something, if a priority, if a goal is aligned with your deepest values is you've done it already Because the best, most aligned goals, they feel effortless.
They feel like just an extension of who we are.
So, okay, that covers procrastination.
Let's give it a little system for people.
That covers procrastination on the ugly stuff, editing the stuff that can be framed differently.
Increasing your desire, right?
Modifying your social environments.
But a big one, where you see and you accommodate the different layers of intention in your life, is setting intentions across multiple timeframes at once.
One of my favorite rules for this is the rule of three.
But I'm trying to remember.
On one of the past times we were chatting, did I mention the rule of three?
Maybe.
Give us it again.
Okay, so all this is is at the start of every day.
I like to start with the goal on a daily basis, because then you see, kind of where the rubber meets the road and you can begin to form different intentions.
So at the start of the day you fast forward to the end of the day in your head And you ask yourself what are the three main things I will want to have accomplished by the day's end?
That's it.
We're the three main things I'll want to have accomplished by the day's end.
And because you can only pick three, it forces you to prioritize what's on your plate.
You have to choose three things that are important and everything else that isn't.
But if you find the rule works, every day you might think okay, what are three things that i want to accomplish this week?
Right, maybe in a work context and a personal context, so that when you set the daily intentions, you can look to the weekly ones and think okay, how can these contribute to the broader plans that i have?
So in this way, your daily intentions beginning begin feeding into your plans And so when you set your weekly intentions, you can look to your goal list.
Right?
You can think how much of this stuff do I want to bite off today?
And so you begin to develop the different layers of intention that you have in your life.
Your daily intentions fit with your weekly intentions, which fit with your plans, your goals, which can fit with your values as you edit them more over time.
So this is kind of the skill that we can develop in setting better intentions over the longer arc of time and upping our level of follow through the goal kind as well as her level of accomplishment.
If that's something that you value, what do you think?
I know the book's new, yeah.
What do you think is something that people are overlooking from this big thesis that you've put together?
You know you've got The obvious things that people are going to zero in on probably the insights around procrastination and ways to reframe intentions and stuff like that.
But is there something, a less sexy but powerful element that you think most people are overlooking?
Yeah, I'll share my personal favorite.
It is that our values are constructed out of our default intentions.
So our default intentions, they form a shape.
And so you can look at, and the shape is the values that we have.
So you can look at all the things you do by default and there's always an underlying motivation behind the things that you do by default.
You have a default habit of meditating, because that allows you to get closer to what you want with self-direction, or you feel more secure in your mind, you feel calmer.
You have habits to you know call friends and that might connect with different values of benevolence and serving others.
But even the simple things, right?
Overeating or something might fit with that biological need for security and not starving.
So from the deeply, deeply ingrained to the default intentions that we form.
So these form the framework of our values.
And this might be too in the weeds for an answer to this question that's interesting, but I think this is very underrated, where our values are made out of the things that we do by default and it's for this idea that i think our default intentions aren't you know they're not just something to get frustrated by you know why do i overeat or why do i do this why do i do that there's something on many levels to admire We can observe ourselves acting through pure habit energy and playing with our kids on habit, whatever it might look like.
And I think, our default habits.
Sometimes they're worth getting frustrated by and setting a different intention after something we've learned maybe, or maybe after tapping into that self-reflective capacity.
But I think other times they're worth marveling at, right?
We have all of these frankly, in my opinion, beautiful default intentions that I think make us human right.
Because we're not only ingrained in a certain way to act in a certain way, but we can also admire the person that not only nature has formed, but also that we have formed through the decisions that we've made in the past.
And those deliberate intentions that we can layer on top of the defaults of our life.
That's this wonderful way that we can go in a different direction and really guide ourselves and our lives to go in a different way.
And goals are a big part of that, but values are a big part of that.
Priorities, plans and daily intentions.
So I just think marveling at our defaults is an underrated idea from the book.
Chris Bailey.
Ladies and gentlemen, where should people go to check out everything that you got going on?
Oh, yeah.
Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the pod again.
Intentional How to Finish What You Start is the name of the book.
If you feel inclined to check it out.
There's an audio book too, if that's your style, chrisbaileycom.
That's where my newsletter is and all the good stuff that you can find in the I don't know what you want to call it the Chris Bailey verse, whatever.
Yeah, thanks for having me on again.
I got you, man.
I appreciate you.
I like your work.
Keep on doing it.
Oh, thanks, buddy.
Great to chat with you always.
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