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Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
Omar, thanks for joining us.
Thank you, Kwame. Hey, it's a pleasure to be on a big fan of the American Negotiation Institute and in your shows.
So honored to be here, man.
I mean, this is a topic I love to talk about, so it's great to be here.
Thank you, man. I appreciate it.
And we're excited to have you.
And like I said, you know, off air, I really admire the brand that you've built in such a small time.
It's super impressive.
So I want the listeners to get to know you.
So how about we get started by telling the listeners about yourself and what you do.
Yeah. Long story short, I'm a boy from Texas.
Grew up on the border.
went to medical school at Texas Tech University, halfway through, figured out I could see myself doing other things.
I dropped out, started off in the medical technology space over 10 years ago, did robotic surgery sales for a few years and then moved into marketing.
After the last like nine, 10 years, what I've really focused on is the psychology of product adoption and more importantly persuasion at scale, which is why I'm very big on utilizing social media to persuade at scale, whether it's selling a service or driving product adoption or raising money.
This is so cool. I think for a lot of listeners, they would understand product.
They would understand adoption.
They'd understand psychology, but putting those three things together, that might be a new concept to a lot of people.
So what does that mean?
Psychology of product adoption.
Yeah. If you think about it, whether it's the iPhone in your hand, or you know, the wearable whoop thing on my wrist. Like we all adopt products or technologies in certain ways.
Right? And if you think of a bell curve on the very far left of that bell curve, there's a small amount of people who are even call tech enthusiasts are these people who like line up outside the iPhone store or Apple store like day one before the iPhone was released.
They didn't even know if it's a good tech. They just want to adopt it.
There's other people who later on are like when more people adopt it, we all go through this psychology for literally everything in life.
Understanding where those segments of people fall into not only helps you understand how do you drive the adoption of your product or service, but also helps you understand what's the negotiation and persuasion levers you have to pull.
For example, if I'm able to understand that, hey, Kwame is more of a later adopter, I think he fits in this segment, I'm going to know that you're going to want to see some case studies, you want to see some data, all these things.
Or if you're like super early adopter, Then I know that none of those things make a difference.
All you want to know is that this is something new.
It's something that's visionary.
You can be the first one to use it and you get some pride out of that.
So the more you understand the target you're dealing with in a negotiation persuasion, the better levers you have to pull and the more likely they're going to change behavior and adopt the product.
Man, we are starting off strong.
Yeah. Like you're coming in hot, man.
This is great. This is so helpful.
And I think about the psychology of personality.
This is almost like an extension of that because absolutely yeah, because we don't persuade everybody the exact same way.
If you take the time to get to know the person, understand their different quirks, their things that they're interested in and things like that, then we can make better reads and become better persuaders 100%.
That's absolutely true.
And it's kind of like, you know, you've fit people on it.
And I'm sure that's what you guys do at ANI, which is you fit people on with a new pair of glasses.
And once you have those new glasses on, you can't unsee the the world in a different way, right?
Now everything starts to make so much more sense as to why people respond and react in certain ways and why they've decided to say yes or no. Absolutely, and when I think about this, too, one of the terms I talk about is egocentric persuasion.
So it's like persuading from our own perspective.
So we think about the things that would persuade us and we regurgitate that to other people.
And so if you're an early adopter and you are talking to somebody who's more of a late adopter, and you're like, this is really cool tech, it's top of the line, it's brand new, it's super exciting, they're like, don't care.
Wait, you might not have heard me.
It's new and cool. We just keep on going back to what works for us, not what works for them.
Absolutely. I'm going to have to use that and, quote you on that, but egocentric persuasion, you're absolutely correct.
That's the mental model we have, which is like, oh, what would get this person to say yes?
Oh, it's these things.
A lot of people, especially in sales, they do this and they're like, why didn't this person?
You did everything according to you." And I think great negotiators, and I feel like you've mentioned this in your own work, that great negotiators have an empathetic approach, which is a win -win scenario, to understand, what does this other party actually want?
And the more you focus on the other party, the more you're able to achieve ultimately what you want.
But if you start from the position of here's what I want and how do I map to that?
Then you start doing more egocentric.
persuasion negotiation and then it fails.
And you wonder like why doesn't this work?
You know? Exactly. And there's so many times, and I'm sure you've seen it with the clients that you work with where they have something that can definitely help their prospect, no doubt.
But they're not closing deals and they don't understand why.
And this is one of those major reasons a lot of times do.
A hundred percent. Look, there's one thing I want to introduce as a concept and I can't take credit for that.
I feel like I got this from, I think his name's Matt Dixon, the gentleman who published Challenger Sale and also Jolt, great stuff.
But there's FOMO, fear of missing out.
And we use that as negotiators, as sellers, as persuaders.
Fear of missing out is really powerful.
The thing that's actually more powerful than that is you can call it FOMO.
There's another one that is probably not appropriate to mention on this podcast. But you can call it fear of messing up.
And so, when somebody is looking to adopt something like, yeah, there might be a fear of missing out but the fear of messing up, making the wrong decision and messing up, because that entails public humiliation, whether it's to your spouse or to your organization or something.
People are more likely to say no because of that, right?
And the more you take that perspective, the more variables you realize you need to make sure that the fear of messing up is not there.
and more importantly, that they see the value.
Anytime I lose a deal, I can blame a lot of different things.
At the end of the day it's like the other person did not see the value, and that's on me.
You know? Right, right, exactly.
And I'm glad you brought that up.
I love the term, fear of messing up.
I think that's great, because when I think back to some of the deals that we've closed at A &I with trainings and keynotes and things like that, one of the things that I started to recognize is the amount of anxiety that people feel when they bring us in, especially when it's the first time working with us.
And I remember one of my first big gigs, I came in and it was a young woman.
It was her first time bringing somebody in to do a training like this, and she really wanted to impress her, her boss.
She was like the youngest person on the team.
And this is one of the funny things about it because I've done a really good job of hiding my age when I started ANI, I was 27 and people didn't realize that, but they booked my travel.
And I was like, oh, no, they're going to find out.
They're going to find out my age.
And so after the training went well, she said, this is really incredible.
I really appreciate it because I wanted to look good in front of my boss.
And you helped me do that.
And I'm not going to lie.
When I saw your date of birth, they're like, oh, I was afraid they were going to say, oh, no, the 26 year old brought in a 29 year old and the training was terrible.
So just giving them the opportunity to recognize, hey, like I can help you to look good with what it is that you're doing, whatever it is that you're selling, and giving them that peace of mind, it's helped them know like, Hey, this is not going to be a public embarrassment.
You will look good.
That can go a long way when it comes to helping people close deals.
Oh, a hundred percent.
And at the end of the day, that's what a lot of decisions are stemmed from, which is how does this make me look good to my boss?
Yes, yes. Like fortune 500 psychology in a nutshell right there.
Seriously, because every time you make a decision in the corporate world, really in many ways, you're putting your reputation on the line.
And I think a lot of times, if we're in the sales mode, we focus so much on that product fit and what it can do, but we don't take the time to really let the person know, hey, listen, I've got your back.
I'm going to make you look good, and I recognize that you don't want to look bad.
So tell me those things that you're afraid of.
Let me address some of those concerns, because I think they need to feel safe when they're making these deals.
Exactly. That's a hundred percent true.
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Now, when we talk about just persuasion in general, what are the key principles that you like to keep in mind when you're working with your clients?
So, yeah, there's definitely, there's a whole list of persuasive principles, but I always start with the foundation, which is the great, our father of persuasion, Robert Fialdini and his principles of persuasion.
I will take credit because I'm an ex medical student because I'm really good at coming up with pneumonics.
So I like to think of the seven principles as our class, you.
This is our class. We're learning just like university.
Most people know the six principles.
So R class U, R is reciprocity, C commitment and consistency, L is for liking, A is for authority, S is for scarcity, S is for social proof.
Those are the six that he wrote principle with.
But then two decades later, he came out with pre -suasion and he introduced a seventh principle called unity.
And unity is pretty much what people do who are like us.
Now, most people say, well isn't that a liking principle?
Not necessarily. Liking and unity are similar, But it just depends on the depth.
So the liking principle has to do with like, if you're like me, for example, like you and I, my persuasion principle with you is that you're like me in the sense that, uh, we're first -generation, you know, Americans, you know, parents are immigrants and you know, where we, both have our own business, right?
That's a liking principle.
Like you would like me because of that.
I'm also very handsome.
And I address really well, according to my wife.
So that, that helps, but unity unity is something like, Hey, we're both small business owners.
There's a unifying thing there.
So it goes beyond ...
I know, I like you, you like me, right?
But the unity we have as small business owners, as entrepreneurs, that goes much, much deeper.
That goes deeper into culture, fears, pains, desires.
So it's very, very powerful.
Those are the main principles of persuasion that I always think about.
And again, when you come up with a negotiation, nobody knows the power of adding those different ones together, right?
So having more than one is always best. So that's what I always start with.
Those are the key ingredients.
I love this, man. Because really, at the end of the day, the fundamentals never go out of style.
There's never going to be a time where these principles of influence don't work unless we fundamentally change our psychology.
And evolution takes a very long time.
So probably not going to be a problem that we run into.
And you're absolutely right.
And I'd like to think about in terms of persuasive stacking.
So what are the persuasive principles that I can layer on?
Cool. So I have reciprocity.
Check. Can I get some commitment?
Okay. Check or consistency.
Good. Right. And so we start to layer these things on.
And then as you just recognize that your, your messaging becomes infinitely more powerful, just exponentially more powerful with every layer that you put on.
And it might be as simple as just a, like one sentence to call out one these things?" Just one.
That's exactly right.
I like the way you described, which is a persuasion stack, and that's exactly what it is because as you start layering these things on it becomes a lot more powerful.
Key hack here, which is, I think using chat GPT, where you can take your business proposal, your email, put it in there and say, hey, analyze this email and give me ways to make it more persuasive, and please reference principles of persuasion.
That way you start training the model, and also training yourself to start looking at this in a different way, you know, because it makes it that much easier.
We all know that we should sit down and do this, but like doing is kind of a pain.
But when you have like generative AI, like chat diversity, that's the best way to use it.
Yes. Listen, we are taking a detour, my friend, because you are I know, sorry, man.
I can't, I can't help it.
No, this is great. These conversations become their own thing because I get super excited about AI.
When computers were introduced back in the 80s, librarians were like, this is going to put us out of the job.
Not only did it not put them out of the job, it generated more librarian jobs because somebody had to manage all of this.
So perfect example generative AI, people say, oh man, graphic designers are done.
You're just going to use generative AI for logos.
No, not necessarily.
Because even though I can do it as business owners, I'm not going to spend my time working with generative AI to come up with a logo.
The graphic designer is not going to go do it, it's going to make their job easier, but then better.
Because they're going to prompt the AI and train it and then come back to me and Hey, like, here's like, some really good designs.
What do we want to go with?
Right? And now you have designers who are now designing not just from subjective perspective, but they can use generative AI to say, Hey, what would work well for this industry for this type of purpose?
Right? And now it's a lot more data -driven, a lot more objective.
It's just gonna make everybody better.
I love that Omar, that's a really great point.
Because the thing is, those skills are still going to be necessary.
I think about, for example, one of the platforms that's really well known for creating artwork is mid -journey.
And so you're right, we can go in and we can use our words and we can describe something.
But artists have different levels of understanding.
So for example, like I see over your right shoulder there are a lot of different books and there at the bottom there are a lot of different blue books.
And so I could describe probably I probably have four words for blue like turquoise, navy blue, sky blue, whatever.
But somebody who knows, who's like an artist there are hundreds of hues of blue.
And so they are able to describe things at a much higher level.
And when people who are really great at mid journey they can say, create a portrait of a person who looks like this, but I want it to be shot with a Sony camera, with this type of lens, blah, blah, blah, so much more detail.
So to your point, it's not that it will replace jobs.
It will also be that, hey, if you have skills and you understand how to utilize AI it just elevates what you can create in terms of the quality and also the quantity too because it diminishes the amount of time it takes to do that same work.
100 % sure. I think like the skill, which I'm sure you've seen like so many courses spring up from it.
I'll probably add something to my course work, which is like prompt engineering, right?
And again, like I just, I think it's a great time.
It's a really exciting time to be alive and utilizing these things.
Exactly, I agree, I agree.
And I think it's really going to be the people who recognize that these uniquely human skills that we have are not going to go out of style.
we're still going to need it.
And I think though people who continue to invest in learning about them they're going to have a decided advantage in the industry, because as other peoples communication and persuasion skills start to fade, as they start to rely more on it on AI, almost as a crutch, the people who continue to improve their skills, while improving their skills of using AI at the same time, they're really going to excel.
a hundred percent. No, a hundred percent.
And again, this is all about like stacking skills, stacking persuasion.
And when you have a platform or a tool that's going to make it easier for you, make it more engaging like I think that's, I mean, we're kind of like moist robots here walking around.
We're kind of like our own AI, right?
I personally, I think most well informed and intelligent people in the world living today is Joe Rogan.
Think about the scale, like every week he's doing three interviews in depth with some expert on something, right?
So think about the amount of knowledge that guy has.
It's just, it's unbelievable.
And you're seeing it because like Joe Rogan interviews, like from, I don't know, eight, nine, 10 years ago, like they were pretty good.
They're entertaining and everything.
But now while he's talking, he's bringing up like references from like different things, all the, all these, because he's just getting exposure at scale to, to all these concepts at once.
And of course these ideas, you know, they start to merge together.
Right. So like that in itself is like a whole case study to kind of go through, you know, who Joe Rogan became as a result of this podcast. No doubt man.
And I feel you there because yeah, you have a show too, right?
And - Yeah, just like you experienced the same thing, right?
I mean, selfishly, when I do podcasts, it's to make content, but like, man, I'm getting access and learning at a scale that I will never get from books.
Yes. Even though I love books, by the way.
I can tell. I see it on your book show, right?
And I recognize, especially as I've increased the pace of the podcast production, Cause we are we're at work seven days a week now with the show.
So it's, we're coming in hot with all my man.
I got to up it, man.
I, I just got my, my creative director to take on like publishing for me and I'm like, I want to do more.
Yeah. I want to, we'll have to talk more.
I want to, I would love to hear more about your work, but yeah, man, that's inspiring.
That's inspiring about the podcast. Thank you.
Yeah. Well, next time we chat, we'll, we'll talk about the workflow.
Cause it comes down to organization and everything.
It's, it's really important.
And I think like, I'm sure you're the same way.
learned something new every single time I interview somebody.
Something new every single time, which is so exciting.
And we just, everybody in general, if we continue to expose ourselves to this type of material, this type of knowledge, we're just going to continue to grow incrementally and almost imperceptibly.
But what's going to happen is that it's going to come up at a random time in your life.
And so there's somebody listening to this podcast. They're like, Oh, okay, cool.
Well, I don't need to send too many persuasive emails and then four months later, they're going to say, hold on.
I remember that episode with Omar, with the principles of persuasion.
This is a really important one.
I'm going to layer these in and I'm going to up my game for this specific one.
And you never know what will happen, but you'll be ready when it does.
Yeah. And then every now and then I get that message on LinkedIn, like, hey man, I'm making more money because you know, I'm like, great.
It's working. It's what I like to hear.
I love it, man. That's great.
That is great. Well, with the time we have left, I want to talk about your approach when it comes to the pain and fear framework you talk about.
Can you tell us a bit more about that?
That's really interesting.
Yeah. What I realized is, and this is Freud's concept of the world, which is everybody is not only running towards something, but also running away from something.
I'm a big believer in practicing what I preach. I have all these books behind me.
I tell people all the time, look, if the result of your learning turns into knowledge, you're a fool.
If it turns into action, that's how you become wealthy, successful, rich, so on and so forth.
I did over 140 separate sales calls last year to get into my course.
People apply, they get on a call, I do a consult and everything.
Part of this is, for me to persuade them, I need to get information.
Because I can't guess what levers to pull.
And so I figured out this framework, which I like to call present pain, future fear framework.
And you can do this with anybody.
So when I talked to somebody, I put them in an imaginative state, and part of this is hypnosis.
And so using metaphors and analogy is great to self -induce people into hypnosis.
By the way, when we induce ourselves into hypnosis all the time, we just don't realize it.
And so what I'll tell them, I'll say, hey, look, I want you to present, just pretend like we're really good friends and we're having a coffee.
And I want you to be very open with me.
Today, what are some present pains you're dealing with in your job?
Present pains you're dealing with XYZ.
And when I say present pain, things that frustrate you, things that you complain to your buddy about, your colleague, like what's the present pain?
And they'll say like, I'm having trouble getting access to customers, market's really tough, and blah, blah.
These are the things that annoy me.
They're present pains, right?
So now I got to amplify these things.
I'm like, okay, so if you continue to not have access to your customers, you're finding difficult to sell, you can't go sell in person to all these things, what is going to happen if let's say nothing changes, and those just get worse like a year or two from now?
And they'll say like, oh, I won't hit quota.
And this is where the future fears, where I say, okay, what's the future fear that if these things don't get taken care of, this thing is going to happen.
And you got to really dig and push people.
Because a lot of people, they're not used to talking about this.
And so the first time they start talking about it, you'll see them self -inducing to hypnosis and they'll go off and start imagining.
But you got to take it further.
You got to say, you know, so they'll say, oh, I'm going to miss my sales quota, or I'm going to get put on a performance improvement plan.
Is that the worst thing that's going to happen?
And they're like, no. If that happens, I'm going to put my career at risk.
I'm like, They're like, well, I could get fired.
You got to take it further.
It's like, okay, if you got fired, what's going to happen?
Are we my mis -rent?
I'm going to have to ask my wife to work more, all these things.
And so now, you've been given all of the things that you need to persuade this person.
And by the way, just because somebody listening to this podcast is going to be like, and this is my annoying public service announcement guy voice.
Oh, but Omar, Omar, that's manipulation.
Here's why it's not manipulation.
Manipulation is getting somebody to do something that they would not want to do otherwise and it doesn't help them.
I think true persuasion comes from the point of that if I deep down genuinely know that my program or whatever I'm doing is going to really help this person, it might save them.
I have an ethical responsibility to attend to any emotions they're dealing with to help get over that and make a good objective business decision, which always stems from subjectivity.
Every decision we make is emotionally based.
So, I got to understand what are the emotional barriers this person has in their head, whether it's this is too expensive, or I don't have time.
It's like, hey, yeah, those are legitimate pains to deal with.
It's not as painful as unemployment, so that's my present pain -future fear framework.
And again, my big thing about persuasion by negotiations is that the more curious you are about the person, the more empathetic you are, the deeper you dive.
You've got to hold their head and take them to that place, then you're going to be given all the things you need to help that person.
Omar, this is a masterclass.
This is really helpful too, because I'm thinking about all these conversations and digging into that present pain, but being very mindful about taking them on that journey.
It's just like, oh, you're not just saying, what are your challenges in general?
They can go anywhere.
But it's like, right now, what is it that you're feeling?
Like, what are those challenges?
And then walking them through that is so powerful.
And then you kept digging.
Because a lot of times we ask shallow questions.
And that doesn't mean that the question that you ask by itself is shallow, is that usually it requires a set of questions to get depth.
And a lot of times we let people go, oh, what are some future pains?
Well, I might even get on a performance improvement plan.
Well, that would stink, wouldn't it?
And then you move on.
It's like, no, there's so many more layers that you can get to.
And when I want to give you an opportunity to talk about the hypnotic state, because I think a lot of people, if they're not familiar with the psychology of hypnosis, they might think about the stage hypnotists that have people twirling around on stage.
So when you're talking about hypnosis, what does that mean?
Yeah, hypnosis means you're induced in a state where you're going to be a lot more open to divulge, not just share information, but also to use your imagination to get into a state where you're more receptive to certain messages.
And again, hypnosis, there's a whole range of things.
You're getting trained, reading books, applying it, learning.
For me, I'm not classically trained.
A lot of it's self -taught and just what I've gone through on my own.
And of course, I've been hypnotized as well.
But what I'd say, here's a perfect example is that we have an operating system of language we use, and it's either kinesthetic, auditory, or visual.
So if I tell somebody, hey, here's a video of a beach. I want you to describe it to me.
They might say, oh, I could see the waves.
Or they might say, I can hear the waves.
Or I could feel the sand.
And so understanding what operating systems somebody uses to describe things is also important for persuasion.
If you're a kinesthetic person, which is like 60 % of people, most of the time you use a physical thing, like, hey, we got to get a handle on this, whatever.
But if I'm talking to you and I say, we got to see a solution here.
We got to see the light.
Whatever. You have to translate into what's applicable to you.
Now, we switch systems all the time, just like switching right -hand to left -hand.
But I promise you, I'm much better off using my right hand than my left hand.
You see what I mean?
And so just noticing what operating system somebody uses in terms of their language helps make it easier for them to get into that hypnotic state.
Which again, you want them to start imagining.
Imagination is the most powerful tool of persuasion.
To get to that state, you have to use operating language that person uses.
You got to use analogies that make sense.
Like for example, this is a classic one in my industry.
The majority of my industry, which is medical sales reps, there's a large amount of them who are male.
I sympathize and empathize with the female reps, because they're used to just hearing sports analogies all day long.
I tell my sales guy, I'm like, look, is it possible that you're dealing with a female rep who understands sports analogies?
Highly likely, but you should not assume that.
Use something else.
That does not mean use a female based analogy, but use something that somebody can relate to a little bit better.
Instead of using, I don't know, a football analogy of let's say scoring a touchdown, maybe use it as the first time you got a promotion or something, right.
So you use something different, right?
Be a little bit more creative with your analogies.
This is great, and on that last point, that is feedback I've received too, from my chief operating officer, Steph Pally.
She let me know, she's like ,ether you use a lot of sports analogies and you lose the women in the crowd when you do that, I've watched.
Yeah. that was, it's important to recognize that too.
And we're so rooted in our own experience that, again, it's egocentric persuasion.
It makes sense to us, so we use it with other people.
Same with the way that people learn and process the information.
So it was like, yeah, can you, can you see where we're going with this versus how does this feel to you, right?
how does this sound to you?
Right. We should be referring to the exact same thing more or less, but we're being empathetic by taking the time to listen to what the other person is saying, understanding how they're perceiving the world, and then using the type of language that would resonate with them.
Absolutely. And just, I have to make a note of this real quick.
Like, one thing is like, You know, sports analogy is still fine to use.
I always tell people it's very important to understand this.
Analogies are fantastic for explaining a situation, simplifying, consequently analogies are not, or, or should not be used for persuasion.
You can't look at something and be like, oh Using this is like, I don't know.
Riding a bicycle backwards.
It's like that explains it, but it's not going to persuade me.
Right. So always use analogies to simplify a concept.
Don't use it to persuade somebody.
Oh, oh, hold up. We're right at 4 .30 and I'm like, well, well, this was good timing.
No Omar. Now we gotta address that too because that is such a good point.
I'm good on time. I mean, you have your kids at home so like, I'm good on my time, you know?
So let's do it. You take it as far as you want, man.
Yeah, I need to dig into this one cause that is so good.
Go deeper on that point.
Yeah, so like the reason why is that again, when you use an analogy, usually it's from your own perspective of what makes sense, right?
And it's okay to use to deconstruct the situation and simplify it.
And can analogies be persuasive?
Of course, they can.
You can, you can use the right analogy.
And it would not only explain the situation or concept to somebody, but they'll be able to relate to that analogy and be persuaded.
It's not enough by itself, because think about all the other things here.
Though, if you look at a list of persuasive themes, analogies are close to the bottom next to like using word salad like a lot of people just talk ad infinitum.
That's not persuasive.
The very top of that list, in my opinion, things that are rooted in fear, so big fear and identity, those are the two most persuasive themes.
Something that has to do with fear, something has to do with identity.
And I would put fear at the very, very top of that list. Again, we talked about this earlier.
The two themes that we talked about both have to do with fear, fear of missing out, fear of messing up.
Yeah. Oh man. This is gold.
This is gold. And I know people are listening and saying, listen, I need more Omar. So can you let them know how they can get in touch with you and tell them about the show and everything like that?
Absolutely. So like I'm on all social media platforms, just look at me at Omar, Omar M.
Khatib. My Medtech podcast is called The State of Medtech and you can follow that.
If you're more interested into the, you know, like the books, and persuasion I talk about all this stuff, I have a YouTube channel.
Just look up Omar Emketeeb or look up my podcast, which I'm kind of bringing back called Mind Loom with Omar Emketeeb.
And that's the one where I cover essentially, it's a podcast for really dangerous ideas.
So your listeners might like that one more.
That's cool, man. Listen, and listeners, if you just want to learn, like get a masterclass on how to leverage social media, follow Omar because I'm telling you, man, your presence is great and you're just getting started, which is exciting.
So kudos. Marvie, thank you so much. It was a pleasure and a blast. Likewise.
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