Before you can negotiate with anyone else, there's a harder conversation that you have to win first.
The one that's going on inside your own head.
My guest today knows that better than most.
Before you present something to the world, you first have to know who you are.
You have to know your why.
And then you then go on to what?
Patience Ogunbona is a leadership coach, keynote speaker and the author of a brand new book that took her three years and one radical act of honesty to finally write.
She's helped leaders across the United Kingdom and beyond close the gap between the person they've been performing as and the person they actually are.
And here's what we get into today.
The sneaky way that the The idea of proving yourself quietly destroys your performance in tough conversations.
We'll talk about how to trust your own voice again and how staying in the wrong environment slowly erases your sense of worth.
You don't feel worthy enough to do things until you start recognizing how noteworthy you are.
Then you will start doing those things.
If you've ever walked away from a hard conversation feeling like you've left the real version of yourself at the door, this episode is for you.
Let's jump in.
We'll see you next time.
Now available in Canada too.
By HomeServe.
Help protect your home systems and your wallet against covered repairs.
Plans start at just $4.99 a month.
Sign up today at HomeServe.com.
Not available everywhere.
Most plans range between $4.99 and $11.99 per month for your first year.
Terms apply on covered repairs and by Shopify.
Sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash Kwame.
That's Shopify.com slash Kwame.
So yeah, fill me in.
How was the process of writing the book was for you?
Well, the book has been three years in the making and three years of forcing myself to conform to something that I wasn't.
The book initially started out as a desire to write a book that would more like market myself.
And every time I tried to write just 10,000 words, I just couldn't get it on paper.
And I think I was really trying to be someone that I was not.
But last year I decided to stop, you know, just stop everything.
So I went on a hiatus for months, which some people say was radical and it's really radical.
So when I went on that hiatus, I thought I was just going to sit down and be thinking about my life, thinking about my business, what I wanted to do.
But as I say also in the book, I'm not one to do that, because I discovered also my ADHD tendencies and all that stuff.
So I decided also to then give myself permission.
And again, I talk a lot in the book about permission giving.
So that was what stopped me from writing the book.
I needed to have that permission to give myself the permission to really go where I wanted to go.
And I think all the while, all the years I wanted to write it, I wasn't willing to be honest enough.
And considering that one of my core values is integrity, that was what kept stopping me.
Internally, it was stopping me like, are you being honest enough?
Are you saying everything you want to say?
Are you saying it the way you want to say it?
Or are you sugarcoating it and all that stuff?
So when I stopped and I went on that hiatus, it felt like it was the time to write it.
And so that...
I just started writing it.
I found someone, actually, and I spoke to them about standing in the way.
And his methodology is if the book is ready to write itself and if the book is trying to say something through you, then you have to let it say it.
And I think that's what the message I really needed.
Because as soon as I gave myself permission to let the book say what it wanted to say, it started to speak to me, started to show me my journey and started to show me the things that needed to be in the book.
So from not being able to write 10,000 words, I've written over 80,000 words.
So I think.
That's the journey.
And obviously the journey led me to you, as we all know.
That journey I made over the years.
And when I was ready to write the book, I think I was also ready to see you as someone who could contribute a word to the book.
And that came out of the fact that Sometimes you don't believe enough in your own message until somebody amplifies it.
So when I looked online 2024, I saw that you had posted a previous conversation we had and said there were things people should take.
I was like, Really?
I'm going to watch that episode again.
You know I was like if that that resonated so much, there was something there that you also connected with, you know and also wanted the audience to hear about.
And that was how I thought you'd be the best person to actually echo the message of this book, especially around all the negotiations I had to have within myself.
I had to negotiate with my worth.
And you know that there's a chapter in the book that talks about moving from not worthy to not worthy.
And when you're negotiating your worth, you don't.
You don't feel worthy enough to do things.
Until you start recognizing how noteworthy you are, then you will start doing those things and i think that's what was one of those chapters that i really connected me to actually connect, reconnect back with you as well.
Wow, that's powerful.
Thank you for sharing.
And again, thank you for the honor of letting me write the four.
That means a lot because it's a powerful message.
And there's so much in this that I think folks can get from it, because you had a stellar career as an auditor doing all of that work.
And then you wanted to do something different.
That took a lot of bravery, a lot of courage.
And then even with writing the book after you came on the podcast, it's so interesting.
It's almost a little bit meta because there was that hesitation.
And then in many ways, you coming on the podcast encouraged everyone.
And then me sharing it, not just once, but multiple times.
And you seeing that encouraged you, you know, you encourage yourself in many ways.
But a lot of times I've recognized in my life I might not have the confidence to do what I need to do or want to do, but then it's helpful when somebody that I respect has confidence in me.
You just need to have confidence.
I don't think we fully appreciate a lot of times the confidence doesn't always come from ourselves.
Sometimes it's borrowed confidence we get from somebody else that allows us to take action.
The concept that you have of going from not worthy to note worthy is is very noteworthy in itself because we often don't recognize the power that we have.
But then if you start to think about, if you start to remove yourself from the process and focus on the message, the communication becomes clearer because I recognize in in myself, like with Steve, I do keynote speeches a lot and people don't know this, but I struggled with stage fright early in my career.
And one of the things that I remember that was very helpful was recognizing that my stage fright is almost stagnant selfishness, in a sense, because I'm focused on myself and how I look and not focused on serving the people who need to hear the message.
And it sounds like for you, once you started to focus on the message, it allowed you to get out of your own way and just send that message out.
And once that blocker was gone, then everything just started to flow.
Most definitely.
And I and you're right, that selfishness is so important for me being a speaker as well.
As soon as I turn in there, I said, it's not the performance, but it's the presence.
And people just want to be able to tap into what I'm trying to say.
And once I don't focus on performance, I actually perform much better.
Because I'm just tuned into the person that is listening.
And there's a quote that I wrote also, I think, in the book that I said when you stop trying to prove yourself, you begin to improve.
And that is a very powerful insight that I got when I started to write the book as well.
I thought I'm not trying to prove anything.
And suddenly I started to improve in terms of how I flowed, in terms of the quiet confidence.
And I think when I define quiet confidence now, I always say it's a matter of.
I've always used to say Confidence means confide in yourself.
Confide in yourself about your own brilliance.
But now I've extended it to say quiet confidence is quiet only because you have to quiet that inner critic and get your self-trust.
Once you can trust yourself, then it's almost like you go out And the inner voice says, swagger.
The inner voice says, you got this.
But if you can't trust yourself, the inner voice says, are you sure?
Do you know what you're doing?
Do you think we want to go there and embarrass ourselves?
So the voice that shifts gives you that quiet inner confidence and it comes from self-trust and building it, you know the way you need to.
Definitely.
And let's go into... proving yourself, that mentality.
Because I think that's something that holds people back when it comes to these tough conversations.
Because even if they show up and they have the conversation, but they're focused on proving themselves, it causes a lot of internal strife and it lowers performance.
Because, like you said, if you focus on proving yourself versus and you stop proving yourself or focusing on proving yourself, you're going to start to improve yourself.
But I think it's also true in these conversations that we have that it will improve our performance during the conversations.
So let's break down what it really means to have that internal desire to prove yourself, and then how it holds you back from the life that you want and the performance you want to have.
I think that proving yourself comes from childhood.
You know, I was thinking about it today the people that are really egotistical and want so much recognition.
They are craving for maybe they're saying, Daddy didn't praise me.
You praise me.
You know, I didn't get enough praise in my life.
So I think it's normal from our childhood that we want to prove ourselves worthy of our parents' love, prove ourselves worthy of people's love.
That's normal.
The more you recognize and you grow in an environment or if you're lucky to get an environment where there's unconditional love, you find that you're not.
Those people come out not trying to prove themselves.
They already embody that sense of worth.
They already embody that sense of brilliance because they were told they were celebrated.
And that is why my framework actually started with identity.
So it's a four-part framework where you talk, the first part of it is identity-based, identity-led.
And the truth about it is you continue to live in a performative way until you embody the truth that you want to carry out into the world.
So proving is a sign of not yet embodying that truth that you really want to exhibit in the world.
That's the way i see it.
So the moment you say and i was thinking about The fact that every time I coach people, I say I do identity led, holistic and intuitive coaching.
So sometimes I would sit in front of someone and I will use a word and they will go.
Because that hit, that hit a nerve, that went beneath the surface.
That's now really addressing the identity, the issue, the things that they can't embody.
So, when it comes to proving and performance, I don't knock performance, but I think the world and everybody and listening to some podcasts and reading some books, we're still operating In the ages where the industrial age and all that time when there was a need for productivity, needs for, you know, using people to get a lot of production out there and things.
And so the real need performance became what you use to define your worth in the world.
But now you now have to find your value a different way.
You embody kindness.
You embody elevated thinking and emotional intelligence.
You show, with the ability to show candor or empathy and all those kind of things now define you better as a a quality human being that people should know, people should hire, people should put in the right place.
I had that experience in my journey as well, which was a blessing.
I would go for an interview and the person would say, it's not just because of what you do.
But, you know, you said something that I really resonate with.
So someone said to me, we don't deserve you, but we need you.
That's why we want you to work for us.
Yeah.
And I thought, wow, what did I say that made him feel?
So there was that.
Wow, you're such a person.
We really need what you have.
And it wasn't it wasn't it was maybe my mindset or the way that I saw the world.
I said, we don't deserve you, but we need you.
And I hope that we can go, you know, knowing.
And obviously I found out I didn't last there because I thought the culture didn't really align with me.
In the end,
So, yeah.
This is fascinating, Patience, because it's so counterintuitive sometimes because you're right.
We've been just programmed to think of ourselves in terms of a –
Like an entity that produces units of value to other entities and that's it.
But then what we need to do once we recognize, hey, we don't need to prove ourselves.
We don't need to focus only on our production.
We can be ourselves.
What's interesting is that that often elevates performance because we are getting out of our own way.
And when you think about it in psychology, they talk about it in terms of flow, the psychology of flow entering a flow state.
When you are in a flow state, when you're in the zone, you're not connected, conscious about everything that is happening.
You're just flowing and finding the right answer.
You know it's like the the world gives you questions, you find answers.
We see it in in sports, when people are in the zone, and then in our own lives and when we might be in, involved in a conversation, where we look up in the clock, we say oh, where did where did the time go?
We weren't actively trying to perform, but in not trying to perform we performed at a higher level.
When you think about Eastern philosophy, they talk about Taoism.
It's trying not to try.
And sometimes trying not to try leads to improved performance.
And what I've recognized when it.
If you are just in the moment, if you're present and you're focusing on connecting with the other side, that helps you to stand out because, especially in negotiation, they can sense oh, this person isn't trying to extract value at my expense.
They actually care enough to be present.
I could see who they really are and what they really care about and why they're really here.
It leads to higher levels of trust.
And so I think just the mindset, these simple mindset shifts, can help so much when it comes to communicating and connecting.
Indeed.
And that zone you're talking about is what is called the genius zone, isn't it?
It's what we?
They say you need to discover your strengths and you need to discover your genius zone.
When you're in your genius zone, you're flowing.
It's more like, oh, I got out of bed like this.
And people would go, how are you doing this?
And you'd be like, I don't know.
It's just.
It's just who I am, right?
And sometimes we can teach children.
You know, as we were talking, I just remembered what happened to my son in primary school.
He was obviously the only, we moved to an area where We were predominantly predominantly white.
So he was the only black child in the class and people didn't really know how to handle him.
He got bullied a lot.
So he would get results from school that would not represent who I knew he was, because I work with him and we get to read together, you know.
And they say a mother loves her child unconditionally.
Yes, but I didn't know that what they were presenting was less than who I knew he could be, or that he was.
And they weren't building on what I was doing at home.
So they brought, they'll give the results home and I'll start asking questions.
And it was more like I would also get upset and try to scold and, you know, tell off things.
Then something just occurred to me.
So I said to him, I said, is this, do you agree with this result?
And he was quiet.
And then I said, are you this, are you the C student that they said?
I said, he said, no.
Then I said, what are you?
He said, I'm an A student.
And I said, OK, that's the way that you are going to carry yourself.
This is their result, not yours.
Right.
And I think for whatever reason, that message got into him.
So every time I would remind him when he's doing his work, I'll say, what student are we?
He'll say, A student.
What student are we?
A student.
Now, my son is 28.
And here's the thing.
He got into the papers for his GCSE results.
I never for one day asked him to read.
I never pushed him to read.
All we kept, the mantra we had was, what student are you?
A student.
What student are you?
A student.
Are you a B student?
No.
You know.
He just kind of changed that language for himself and looked at himself differently.
So I think those things are important, even as an adult.
When we go out there and someone is trying to describe us, we have to take the autonomy back and go who am I?
And answer that question for ourselves before we turn up anywhere.
So that when people are trying to describe, label, put something on us, we know who exactly we are.
We're showing up as that person and that's important.
You know what's ironic?
As a negotiation expert, one of the most important skills I teach is presence.
Truly listening, reading the room, catching what is not being said.
But for the longest time I'd walk out of my own meetings realizing that I spent half of the time buried in my notes instead of actually being present.
Things would fall through the cracks, action items would get fuzzy and I'd have to piece everything together after the fact.
But that changes with Granola.
Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way that real people actually meet.
Here's how it works.
You take notes, like you normally would, and in the background, Granola securely transcribes the meeting.
And when it's over, it turns everything into clean, structured, and actually useful notes.
And the best part?
Granola works through your device's audio, which means it integrates seamlessly into the tools that you already use.
No setup, no awkward interruptions.
It is just your normal meeting with superpowers.
You get to actually listen, stay fully engaged and still walk away knowing exactly what was decided, who's doing what and what comes next.
Before granola, our team would spend extra time cleaning up notes and double checking details.
Now we leave meetings aligned and clear.
It saved us time and helped us to operate at a much higher level.
If your meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer.
You can try it totally free for three months.
Just go to granola.ai.com.
That's granola.ai.com.
Get three months free at granola.ai.com.
And a big thanks to HomeServe for sponsoring this episode.
We talk a lot on the show about being prepared, having the right strategy before you walk into a difficult conversation.
But I'll tell you, nothing humbles you faster than being completely unprepared for a home repair.
I remember when my water heater just gave out.
No warning, no negotiation, just gone.
And suddenly you're scrambling, searching for a reliable contractor at the worst possible time, watching costs stack up in real time.
That is a stressful place to be.
But here's what I wish I'd known.
Your regular homeowner's insurance likely doesn't cover that.
Plumbing failures, HVAC breakdowns, electrical issues.
You're often completely on your own for those.
And that's exactly where HomeServe comes in.
HomeServe offers plans that cover specific home systems starting at just $4.99 per month.
When something goes wrong on your plan, you simply call their 24-7 hotline and they connect you with a local experienced professional that can handle the repair.
No panic.
No frantic searching.
They've been helping homeowners for over 20 years, with a network of over 2600 local contractors, 45 million customers and a 48 out of 5 post-repair rating.
Help protect your home and your wallet with HomeServe against covered repairs.
Plans start at just $4.99 per month.
Sign up today at Homeserve.com to find the plan that is right for you.
That is Homeserve.com.
Not available everywhere.
Most plans range between $4.99 to $11.99 a month.
For your first year, terms apply on covered repairs.
Oh, this is so great, Patience.
Thank you for telling the story.
You get the mom award of the day.
So congrats.
And also, there are a couple of things that I want to highlight before we...
Start to hone in on the identity piece, which I think is the most powerful.
I think it's really important that people recognize that you had a pattern of parenting before and then you switched it when you recognize that it wasn't working.
And then, just as we communicate, as we live our lives, that we can have these patterns and then we can switch it.
And the thing is, I'm a first generation Caribbean American.
I know your family's from Nigeria.
Oddly, all of my best friends are Nigerian.
It's a weird thing.
I don't know how it happened, but I can cook jollof and stew everything.
So I'm like... honorary Nigerian at this point.
And I know that, when it comes to the culture, the parents can be very intense when it comes to making sure that the kids hit certain benchmarks.
So it can be hard to make that adjustment, especially when you have that cultural background.
But again, it shows that you can switch.
And then when it comes to your son, you helped him to embody a new identity that he also wanted.
So it's not saying, hey, do this because I say to do it.
It's who do you ultimately want to be?
And when you look at the studies, when it comes to persuasion and when it comes to changing our own personal behaviors, that's one of the best ways to do it.
When you can say, I'm going to see myself differently, that matters.
There was a study where they were trying to get people to vote.
They were trying to get more people to vote.
And they were making all of these persuasive arguments to try to get people to do it.
But they found that the most powerful thing you could do was to get the person to self-identify as a voter.
That was the most important thing.
So when they said I am a voter, when you are led by a very positive and powerful identity, then you just say well, what would a voter do on this in this occasion?
I guess I have to vote today.
Right.
So for your son, well, I'm an A student.
Well, what does an A student do right now?
I guess I'm turning off the TV and studying.
That's what I do.
And I think that's we've seen it countless times where people just need to recognize that if you.
If you go just on the performance, it doesn't always change the innate tendency to do things a certain way.
If you want to pattern interrupt and change patterns of thinking, you have to tell your brain.
Again, you have to tell that inner voice.
You have to turn your inner critic into your inner sage.
I always say that your inner critic remembers the things your parents called you, remembers the things your teacher called you.
And they're trying to protect you from embarrassment.
And they'll say it again, like, do you want to be called stupid again?
Just don't do it, you know.
So you are trying to interrupt that pattern of conversation you have with yourself and go yeah, your inner critic becomes your inner sage.
And go you go girl, I think you can do this.
Be like, is that my voice?
So, but that is, that is the training that you give yourself.
That's why, in the, in the whole building of this framework, I thought before you present something to the world, you first have to know who you are.
You have to know your why.
And then you then go on to what.
So it's your who that creates your what.
So you start with identity as the first part of the framework.
Then you move to idea.
And then you ask yourself, the next part is the intention.
So what's holding me back?
What are the barriers that stop me from actually producing my ideas or bringing them to life?
And then the last part is impact, where you think about how do I amplify this to other people and how do I build the courage to really say this is what I'm about, this is who I am.
I'm bringing it out into the world.
So you've got the idea, you've got the identity.
Idea intention, moving from intention to intentionality, and then impact, where you have courageous leadership.
So that's how the framework in the Aligned Introvert Method works was built out, and built out through the journeys that I have with my clients.
I noticed that if I'm asking them to change their intention, the moment it stops working and they say to me oh, I want business coaching.
You know, let's just get my marketing right and everything right, my messaging right, and it doesn't work.
I tend to switch one of the sessions and go let's not focus on marketing.
Let's not focus on the messaging.
Let's talk about this and that.
And sometimes that session itself, there'll be tears.
But what I then feel, and I can see from the screen, is that exhale, that Finally I can actually breathe, almost like let it out.
And from then on, something switches, something happens and they get themselves.
And once they get themselves, those struggles begin to shift.
It's powerful.
And let's talk more about the folks that you work with.
So when people work with you and they are saying, okay, I am right here.
I am very introverted.
I'm struggling to get to the next level in my occupation, my career, whatever it happens to be.
What are often some of the blocks or challenges that you need to help them to overcome to really –
Just start gaining some positive momentum.
I think the first thing is that dealing with the identity crisis, giving yourself permission.
I think what people don't understand is you can people say I'm introverted, I'm extroverted, I'm ambivert?
But you can also say I choose to be introverted.
I choose to be ambivert and I choose to be extroverted, because also I do say to people you can be anything you want.
But what are you at your core that you're not giving yourself permission to be?
Many times you will find that you.
Go into a crowd and you really like people like that's always that's the paradox.
And I write about embracing your beautiful contradictions is one of the chapters.
In fact, I think it's the second chapter in the book.
And the reason I wrote that is because people will say to me when I'm in a crowd or with people and I'm talking to be like you can't be introverted.
And I'll be like, well, that's OK.
That's OK, because I'm here with you and I love people.
But after today, especially if you're more than 50 people, I need three days away from nobody and no people.
And there was a time in my life that that was kind of like, why are you such a freak?
You know, in the university we would finish lectures and I'll put my head down and I'll be off to the room.
And one day, one guy just said to me, Patience, what is in your room?
In the beginning, I said, well, you're not in my room for starters.
But secondly, I thought I just need to go to my room and I don't know why.
You know, so the first thing that they have is that conflict with.
But I like people.
I want to be a great leader.
But what I know is that the environments where they celebrate great leaders, they are always on their charismatic loud, always loving people, always around people.
But to be honest, I get tired of people.
I get tired of the performative kindness.
That's something else that I know is very common.
Performative kindness is very, very common.
Smiling teeth and, you know, doing all the ticks, but then not really feeling it, you know.
So they come with that struggle.
But they also know that the higher you go, You have carried a mask to be able to do that performance.
And at some point you are asking yourself, when will the real me turn up?
And I did ask myself that question when someone said to me my earlier coaching, that is part of the reason why I coach.
But the person said, what would you like to achieve from this coaching session?
And I'm telling you, that was like 20 years ago and I'd never done coaching before.
I'd never experienced being coached.
And I said, I just want to know who patience is.
And the woman said, that is a hard word for me.
How am I going to tell you who patience is?
And I said, well, that's what I want to know.
And she said, OK, let's try, you know, and that I think is part of.
When people have worn a mask, they've lived with a mask all their lives, performing to certain ideals, certain work environments, using the title as a crush for who they are.
You know, I'm an executive director, but who are you beyond executive director?
You know, who are you beyond VP of so-and-so-and-so?
You are afraid for people to know that, or you're afraid to find that out and you're afraid that once people recognize that bit, they would love you, they would accept you and all of that stuff.
So they come with all those baggages that also have now led to a situation where they are not finding their work as fulfilling because they are not doing it.
Authenticity, and it's getting harder and harder at the higher leadership level, because when people can sense it, they can sense that you're just asking them uh, you're covering up, you know.
But what's also important is, at that level as well, You need to own the gaps, because you constantly live in fear of being found out, of the things you can't do or the strengths that you don't have.
But if you own the gaps and you work at fixing them and you're vulnerable and show people that you have gaps, people actually plug the gaps with their own brilliance.
And so you don't have to do.
I said, if you build leaders around you, you don't have to lead.
They are just going to support you to mentor them.
So those are, you know, people that come to me have all that.
I think the word I'm looking for is they have that identity crisis.
You want to be themselves and find fulfillment in being themselves.
They also want to perform at a level that uses their genius zone, but then plug the gap between where they are now and where their genius zone exists and find the courage to flood that gap, whether publicly or whichever way they could.
Powerful.
This is great.
And when.
When you do this, I'm assuming this is where the alignment comes from too, because you have to understand who you are at your core.
You have to understand what is required to get to where you want to go and then align yourself appropriately in order to get there.
And one of the things that I found with some introverts is that they do what you do, but they use the term extrovert as a verb.
So they say OK, I am an introvert, but I recognize that sometimes strategically, in order for me to get my goals I need to extrovert myself.
But for a moment.
I can't do it all the time or else I would lose my mind.
So I need to then honor the introverted part of myself.
Once that micro mission is accomplished, then I can go to my room and dwell in darkness and be away from people.
But then the challenge is recognizing that, And I'd love for you to speak to this too, because then you recognize okay, I can understand that there's a gap between where I am and where I need to go.
I understand that there might be times where I need to extrovert, even though I am an introvert.
But then we might get to that point where we're achieving our goals on paper, but then we're not feeling fulfilled or we're feeling burnt out because we can't truly be ourselves authentically in the space.
And so how do you help people reconcile those differences where They might want to succeed, but then succeeding might require a compromise in their identity, and in a way that is not sustainable?
How do you help people through those types of situations?
I think we first have to recognize that introversion extroversion, they are all on a spectrum, you know.
And we all have all of it in us.
So where you can tap into extroversion tendencies when you want to.
And you can go back to what is at your core.
I always use that phrase that this is what is at your core.
An extrovert can decide to be quiet and listen to people when the occasion needs to be listened to and allow other people to go first when the occasion needs to.
And that is also the gap that they might need to plug in the environment that they are.
To be able to be the most effective leader.
But the truth about it, and I think I use the phrase even from the earlier parts of my coaching journey.
I talk about growth, environment.
A growth environment is the one that doesn't cause you to constantly compromise on who you are.
What your values are and allows you to be aligned, to be properly aligned where there's a misalignment.
And I did tell a story about misalignment recently.
That drives it home and how I got to understand what alignment really means.
Alignment allows you to carry.
The load that you need to carry gives you the capacity to sustain performance or activities or actions.
So if an environment is constantly causing you to be misaligned and you can't fix that environment, it's not a growth environment.
Imagine your customer.
It's late, they're scrolling, and then they find exactly what they've been looking for.
Your product.
They add it to the cart, they hit checkout and then they realize that their wallet is nowhere near them.
Passwords?
Forgotten.
Card number?
Not a chance.
That's the moment most businesses lose the sale, but not yours, because your store has that purple button.
One tap done.
That's Shop Pay powered by Shopify.
And it's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet.
Fewer abandoned carts, more completed sales.
But Shopify isn't just great for buyers, it's a powerhouse for business owners too.
With hundreds of ready-to-use templates, you can build a beautiful online shop that matches your brand.
Shopify is also packed with AI tools that write product descriptions, polish page headlines and even enhance your product photography.
And with world class expertise in inventory, shipping and returns, Shopify is truly your commerce expert.
See less carts go abandoned and more sales go. with Shopify and their shop pay button.
Sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash Kwame.
Go to Shopify.com slash Kwame.
That's Shopifycom.
Slash Kwame.
Here's something that i've learned over the years how you show up matters every single day and, i'll be honest, i used to overthink getting dressed, trying to look put together without spending a fortune on it.
And then i found quince and it genuinely simplified everything.
So i bought their stretch knit pin tuck trousers and they have been in constant rotation.
I'm talking about meetings with the team, running around the town with the kids hanging out with friends.
I just throw these on and I know I look good.
The fabric feels elevated, lightweight, and breathable, but they're so comfortable.
I honestly feel like I'm wearing loungewear.
And that's the thing.
They look polished and they feel that relaxed at the same time.
One pair and every kind of day.
And the price?
It is not at all what I expected for that kind of quality.
And here's why that is.
Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen.
So you're getting premium materials at 50 to 80% less than what you'd pay for similar brands.
For spring, think 100% European linen shorts and shirts starting at just $34.
And 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that honestly just has to be felt.
And their pants hit the same sweet spot too.
Relaxed and comfortable but polished enough to wear pretty much everywhere.
Refresh your everyday with luxury you can actually use.
Head to quince.com slash kwame for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.
That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash kwame for free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash kwame now available in Canada too.
It's like, I don't do gardening very well.
And I remember trying to plant roses and I kept.
They kept dying, but I thought so.
And so has beautiful roses.
I'll keep trying until I get it right.
Then I went to the garden center and I was buying soil for my roses.
And this gardener, gardening lady, you know the ones that you know that gardening is in their blood.
You know when you see them.
I walked up to her and I said she must know, because she has this gardener hair, gardener outfit and she's holding all her.
So I said to her, I said, I want to buy soil for my roses.
And, uh, I want them to grow nicely.
And she said, no, not with that soil, they're not.
And I was like, what do you mean?
And she said, no, they won't grow in that soil.
That soil is just going to keep killing them.
I said, but that's cheaper than the other ones.
She said, well, you want to grow roses?
I was like, yeah, well, the expensive one over there is for roses. trust me, you know what I did?
I said, I don't want to grow roses.
And she said, by the way, aside from the soil, you need to prune it.
You need to, all the time a bud comes out.
She told me about the care of the roses and I just wanted to wing it and hope that the roses would grow.
And when she said all that, i dumped the soil.
I walked out of there and said well, cecile knows how to grow roses.
That's her strength zone.
I ain't growing roses ever in my life, but i never did so.
I think what i'm trying to say is that yes, compromise Once in a while, because otherwise, even in marriage, you know you're married.
Marriage is an agreement of when you're signing the papers.
I agree to compromise.
I agree to compromise.
And if you don't over time, it's not going to work.
But if you continue to compromise as well, it's not going to work.
Right.
So both have to compromise for it to be a growth environment for you.
So what I say is check your growth needs as an introvert, as an extrovert, as a leader, as the person who wants to self-actualize.
Can you find them in that environment now?
If not, can you find them in the long term?
Can you influence the environment to help you to achieve that?
Can you find alignment?
If you can't, why are you staying?
Wow.
Yeah, I think this is the inconvenient truth that a lot of people struggle to get to.
Because this is why you have to have that alignment within the internal negotiation with yourself before getting to that external negotiation.
Because the reality is we could give people negotiation strategies that can help them to get to the top of their organization.
They achieve all of their goals on paper and then their life falls apart because they're deeply unhappy.
They're burned out.
You have to be able to be honest with yourself, to recognize what it is that you really want because, as you chart it and you say okay well, in this organization, I want to achieve that.
Then you say, you realize, wait a second, this would require not infrequent compromise.
It would require daily compromise.
Daily important, deep compromises that I cannot sustain.
So this is not the right place for me.
And that's a hard place to get to because kind of like with your story, hey, this person has roses.
I want roses too.
I'm going to play that status game.
And then you might recognize I'm playing the wrong status game.
And that can be hard to accept.
And I think, in fact, you've just got to come to a place where you appreciate what you have to be able to say.
If they don't want it here, there must be somewhere that they want it.
So, and I think we always think, tend to think OK, if they don't want it here and they've messed me up, they've not let me be myself.
I don't think I can find it anywhere else.
But the longer you also stay there, the more that message becomes true for you.
Because you continue to undervalue and undervalue the core part of yourself that you feel is actually what I want to do in the world.
Is the difference that I want to make in the world.
You'll never find purpose there, and so fulfillment will not be there.
But also if you keep going that way.
They say burnout happens not just because we are doing hard things, but because we're doing things that are crushing our souls every day.
And we're actually drawing from depleting ourselves motivation, depleting self-esteem, depleting everything, to turn up every day to do this soul-crushing work.
So one day your soul just says, I give up.
I'll carry you.
And that's it.
And so you wake up one day and you can't get out of bed.
It's not physical.
It's just, I can't get out of bed because I really don't.
I'm not feeling well.
And then you go and take medications and medications.
But you then think, what if you just fix the problem?
The soil is the wrong soil.
Just get out and go get the right soil, which will take you time, which is scary, which you need to put safeguards in place, because we all need an income, we all need all those kind of things.
But you have to be here, you have to be alive, you have to be well to serve the people that really love you, that really miss you when you're not there, that really care that you exist.
Everybody is dispensable at work.
We all know that.
Yeah, that's such a great point.
I remember there was a time where I was working really hard, but working in a way that wasn't aligned with the way that I wanted to work.
And the like, the stress at home.
It did it like built up, you know.
And so when you're not in alignment, you have to recognize it's not just about you.
It'll impact other people.
And I think a lot of times we just say, oh, we can we'll just carry that for ourselves.
And we don't realize, hey, no, no, no.
You think you're carrying it for yourself.
No, everyone around you is carrying this too.
So it forces you again.
When we think about that alignment idea, it's not just aligning within yourself, but also your life and lifestyle.
That includes other people around you too.
And I think I have to.
It's important to the word carry that you use here is so important for me to put in to the context of alignment with another story.
And the reason why I wanted this book to be called Aligned and use a lot of alignment.
I was driving my car and it kept saying tire load.
I thought, I don't care.
I don't like going to the mechanics.
I'm just going to keep driving it.
And it kept going.
And then something just said, this is scary.
You know, if you don't go, the tire might bust because um?
So I went to the mechanics and I said um, you know, I've been putting this off for too long.
I need to just fix this.
The car won't shut up to tell me about this load, this thing.
And then he said well, the reason the car is telling you that is because each tire is supposed to be 36, 36 each.
And then the load that it carries would be equivalent to that pressure that it has in it.
So what's happening is the car keeps telling you I'm misaligned and you keep trying to get me to carry the load that you are asking me to carry.
So I'm telling you.
I can't.
So what happens is it tries to use more fuel.
It tries to use more engine oil.
It tries to use everything else.
So the mechanic was telling me, so what's happening to you is false economy.
You're spending more fuel because, for it to carry the same load you need to, it runs out of fuel quickly.
Engine oil, everything is not working, and all because you didn't want to just come and let us make sure your tires are balanced and your tires are aligned, and that is what we call wheel alignment.
Wheel alignment allows you to have the capacity to carry the load that it is meant to carry, and so We have set the tire pressure to this to carry certain type of load, to carry, to move in certain type of way.
And the thing is, by the time I turn, he said that's why your car is bent to one side and going this way, because it can't cope with a straight line.
An alignment is a straight line.
You know what I mean?
So when I thought about that, I started thinking about how many people are in an identity crisis.
How many people are trying to solve problems that are not in their genius zone.
How many people are living with intentions and not able to move to intentionality to cause it to happen?
The other thing that came to me more recently, important to say is I started thinking about.
There's a chapter there, also in the intention, that talks about moving from time management mentality to time utilization.
But also it's kind of like it's all in the mind and it's all changing yourself from the inside.
And I started to practice something last year, which has expanded.
Last year, I was saying I want to be kinder and I want to be generous.
And I did a program that talked about generosity and everything else.
And when I got to the end of the year.
I sat with myself and I said, what does generosity require?
It requires you to move from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset.
So I started to say things like, I am wealthy.
I started to say that.
So when I pass someone...
I started to.
When I pass someone and they're asking for help, I then would pass and walk off, and I'll have a conversation with myself.
Oh, well, you know, it would have been nice to give.
Then the voice comes in.
Who are you?
I said, oh, I'm a wealthy person.
And the wealthy people are blessed to be able to give to people who don't have.
So I'll go back.
Reverse back.
So I started to call I am anything that comes after I am is so important.
Right.
So again, when it comes to goal achievement and all that stuff I've been thinking about, I sign up for the gym or I want to do my walks and whatever.
And people get it wrong and go, they always also over social media, we shout, you have consistency.
And people even wear it as a badge, consistency.
And I saw one lady, she said, oh, I'm consistent in posting for 365 days.
And if I stop now, it's going to affect me and everything.
So I started thinking, wow, I want to be like that, you know.
But then when I walked by, I said, okay, no, do you want to be like that?
And I thought, no, I don't want to post it.
So what do you want to be?
And I said, I want to be a conscientious person, conscientious leader.
That's different from consistency.
You still see consistency.
It's they're both corn and corn is on it.
Consistency and conscientious.
So if I embody being a conscientious person, what does that look like?
What I then found is that being conscientious actually make you more consistent, but consistent in the right things and knowing what you value most.
Consistent in an aligned way.
So these things are all for me.
That's why I focus on I say I'm identity led and very holistic in my coaching approach.
Yes.
And I think one of the things that's critical to acknowledge with the way that you're using the term identity is that it is it is authentic identity.
But it's also strategic as well.
And it's also malleable.
It can change, because I think that's one element of identity that we don't fully appreciate, because we say OK, coming into my career or in my early 20s, early in my life, I had a specific identity.
And then we need to give ourselves permission to shift that identity when it serves us.
So, for instance, you might have an identity because of a background that you have.
Whoever it might be is like, listen, I don't take any nonsense from anybody.
I am going to – if somebody offends me, I'm going to make sure that it's the last time they ever do that again.
Them in the face, exactly exactly.
It's like okay well, that doesn't work.
You know that doesn't that?
That might have been your identity in your teens, but now we can say, all right, i'm going to adapt.
I'm somebody who is patient.
I'm somebody who uses the right strategy.
I am a person who says what needs to be said in the right way at the right time, right?
And so I think that's powerful, just giving yourself permission to shift your identity.
But those I am statements are so, so powerful.
Yeah.
And when you say, you know...
If somebody talks to me anyhow, punch him in the face.
That shows there are people who would just keep quiet and let people walk all over them.
That also is not good.
Just as the temperament of punching people is not good.
But again, that's who you are, right?
But when you get older and you start to recognize the need to have emotional intelligence to manage your anger and know that it doesn't serve you, then you have the right to say I want to be more patient with people.
Or the person who is letting people walk all over them needs to say I want to be less people pleasing.
So what identity now do you need to recognize and embody? to do that.
Then when you identify that, you switch it from I am bossy or I am strong to maybe I'm patient.
And every time you say, what do you want to be?
I'm patient.
I'm a patient person.
I take my time to understand people.
And just take three deep breaths that will then stop me from punching them.
And maybe I'll go write a nice worded email that is a gut punch rather than the punch, you know, something like that.
But also thinking about Simon Sinek, who says, find your wine.
I just realized as now I'm older and in my 50s that your why's shift, the why's will also change.
The why for doing things.
When you're a single guy, there's a why for doing something.
When you're a married person, this is what I realized.
And I say to you, my starting point for everybody is that you are a leader, whether you like it or not.
So if you become a parent, you have to embody leadership persona in your house for your children to grow up in the right way.
You have to embody leadership to the household as a leader.
The mom has to be a leader in her own way.
The dad has to be a leader in their own way.
And the why for why you're doing those things also shifts.
It shifts from maybe I want to just make money and all that.
I want to leave a legacy becomes part of it now.
So your why then shifts.
I want to leave a legacy of love.
You know, if my children go out there, we gift society, the children, the people that we bring up in our household.
We gift society something with that.
Charity begins at home.
Hatred begins at home.
You know selfishness begins at home.
So you're gifting society something.
So that's your legacy already, whether you like it or not.
So you have to step into a leadership persona.
You have to change your why for wanting to make more money or wanting to do this into something that creates legacy.
Wise shift, wise change.
And you have to think of it that way.
100 percent.
100 percent.
All right.
Patience.
Welcome to our lightning round.
You're our first ever person doing this.
So this is exciting.
This is great.
So we have five questions for you.
Question number one.
What is the biggest challenge for introverts in difficult conversations?
Having difficult conversations is difficult for anyone.
But I think the main thing is the world.
Adding the word difficult to the beginning, it's already making it tough, making it scary, right.
But I think it's important to know that when it's a difficult conversation, it's a conversation that needs to be had.
That's why it's difficult, because it needs to be done.
Otherwise, you won't get to the other side.
So the main thing that makes it difficult for introverts especially is because they don't like conflict, and they don't like conflict.
They don't necessarily like being confrontational as well.
So we all know that one of the qualities of an introvert is when they kind of shrink back and keep quiet and just let things go and not wanting to talk and all that stuff.
That is why it's difficult now because you might have to be stern with your voice.
You might have to have eye contact with the person and have those conversations.
So the best thing is to think how am I going to make it easier for myself, to be clear, to make myself understood?
And to also allow myself to lead the conversation in a way that would result in a win-win outcome for both sides.
You know, that's the other thing.
What's the intention out there is so that there's a win-win, not that one person is losing and the other winning.
As you well know, negotiations are your thing.
So you probably have been in many difficult conversations and teach people more than this.
But that's what I would say is that introverts don't like conflict.
Talking can be a challenge for many introverts, but understanding that Difficult conversations are conversations that need to be heard and having a strategy to go into there and hope that you achieve a win-win is a great starting point.
I agree 100%.
And you brought up a really good point too about the mindset.
Because sometimes our mindset going into the conversation becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It goes from this is a difficult conversation to this will be hard.
This will make me feel bad.
I will feel uncomfortable.
And then as a result, we do feel those things.
And when I've been working with introverts coaching and things like that what I recognize is that sometimes they can make it overly difficult on themselves because they are trying to negotiate as somebody else.
So they're not leaning into that identity.
So use your introvert superpowers.
Listen at a high level.
Slow down the pace of the conversation.
Give yourself time to respond.
And once you start to communicate like an introvert...
As an introvert, then you have better conversations.
But if you try to cosplay as an extrovert, then you're going to struggle.
Good.
Yeah.
And I think the word listening that you said there.
But if you have a strategy going in, you can actually change.
Go afterwards and reflect on that, because the other thing that interests you we go and we stay awake thinking oh, why on earth did I say that?
Oh, my goodness.
You know, you're replaying the whole thing in your head and feeling really terrible.
But you can, if you have a strategy going in, you can actually come out and analyze how you did with that strategy.
And then you can improve on the next one.
But if you don't have a strategy going and you don't know what you did well, you don't know how you follow the strategy or not.
And I think that's important as a leader, regardless of introversion or introversion anyway.
Brilliant.
Brilliant.
OK, great.
So let's move on to question number two.
Yeah.
What is the best communication strategy for introverts in meetings?
So the best is to have again I've used that strategy the plan of action of what's going to happen before you get to the meeting.
Because when you get to the meeting, the likelihood is you'll be listening a lot.
And you are not able to talk while listening.
Extroverts talk, talk and think, and you think to talk.
So if you do a lot of your thinking before you get to the meeting, you come armed with an understanding of what the meeting is about, where you can interrupt and contribute.
And where you can use your listening skills to actually hear what people are going to miss.
And therefore, when you come out with that suggestion, it's like, why didn't we think of that?
It's because all of you are talking and I'm listening, but I also have picked up.
Based on my strategies, that I'm going to listen for the key thing there that will make a difference in this situation.
And one of the things to do is always ask for as much information as you can beforehand, because you know that once you get there, you go into thinking mode and not talking mode.
So if you could do a lot of your thinking before the meeting, it helps during the meeting to be listening more and to already have a planned approach to contribute effectively.
I love this answer because we've had so many people come on the podcast and talk about preparation, but never talking about the difference between the way that introverts process information as it relates to preparation.
Because preparation is important for everybody, but it sounds like it's even more important for introverts because they need to process that data beforehand and, if they can get as much information as they can before they can go through that process, so they feel confident enough to speak.
Extroverts, on the other hand, can speak about anything at any time without needing to prepare at all.
So the preparation process is going to be crucial.
And then also using those listening superpowers not only during the meeting but beforehand.
Maybe you start to have conversations with people beforehand.
Before the meeting happens because introverts often like to interact one-on-one or smaller groups, so you could feel a little bit more in flow and connected to the other side.
Having that conversation one-on-one, you gather all that information.
So then when the actual meeting happens, now you can interject in a way where you feel prepared.
It is coming from a foundation of confidence.
So I really like that idea.
Nice.
Okay.
Crushing this.
So we have the next question, which is what can an introvert do if they keep getting interrupted in a conversation?
When you keep getting interrupted in a conversation, obviously you might not be able to finish that conversation.
So the person interrupting you, you cannot suddenly just change who they are in that meeting.
I think that that's worth recognizing, that if that's their pattern of behavior, the first thing to do is they might not notice that they're doing that.
So you can actually find the courage to go.
By the way, did you recognize that you keep interrupting when I want to make a point?
Can you please allow me to make my point first?
And perhaps just write down your point and then you can say it afterwards or we can bring it in.
Now, they might not accept that.
They might not.
If they haven't noticed it before, they can just switch off who they are.
And again, that's.
The other thing I found is that extroverts don't know they're doing it because they have to think to talk.
And the moment you say something, they interrupt and, you know, get to it.
And it's not just extroverts.
I think there is an element of. neurodivergent people as well.
It's important to recognize that it's like the brain is, you know, so the mouth just wants to say it, to release it from the brain.
I can identify with that as well.
So just because I'm an introvert, sometimes my brain is kind of like get it out there and just say it.
So I think one of the key things I would recommend is if there's an opportunity to allow things to get towards the end of the conversation, especially in meetings where there can be an opportunity for any other business or final word.
That is where you can then.
Now, it's not about people go around the room right and go.
Does anybody have any final word?
It's not like now we're all contributing.
That's the best time, because you have the audience, you have the mic in your hand and you get the well you know, arbitrary mic, or whatever you might call it.
Then you can then speak.
I think that putting together your thoughts on the things you haven't said to be able to do that is taking that opportunity, I think.
Yeah, I like that advice of once people give you give the floor, anybody want to say something?
Yes.
Now is my time to say something.
And then also the point that you made about recognizing that a lot of times people interrupt and they don't realize that that's important too, because we often jump to taking it personally.
You don't respect me and therefore you are interrupting me.
Which in some cases might be the case, but a lot of times, like you said, it might be neurodivergence or it might be a situation where somebody gets so excited that they don't even recognize that it's happening.
I remember I have a friend who interrupts all the time and whenever I would bring it up to them they would say that it didn't happen.
And then they heard a recording of themselves and they were shocked, aghast at how much they were interrupting.
I was like this is what i'm talking about.
You do it all the time and it's like when and so what they said is that i, i don't even, i don't recognize it's happening and it's it's almost like they go into their own world.
So helping to reestablish a cadence of conversation is important.
And then also recognizing that, when it comes to the way that different brains process just speaking in large generalities Extroverts, process quickly and externally.
Introverts process slowly and quietly.
And so what often happens is that in a conversation, an introvert would pause because they're thinking and then come back.
And so they weren't finished thinking, but the person who's listening thinks that they are, and then they keep on going.
So for the introvert they say I wasn't done talking.
But the other person on the other side says but you stopped talking.
So I thought you were done talking.
And so I honestly think having a conversation about patterns of speech and that can be really helpful to help coach the other person that you're talking to to understand your pattern so that unintentional disrespect doesn't happen.
I think it's an investment in relationships as well, because what you said about your friend is generous.
You helped them to find a blind spot that they could grow in.
Blind spots are blind spots because they are blind.
You can't see them.
So somebody else has to point them out to you.
And that is what we can be generous to do.
And that's what psychological safety is.
You know, workplace is about giving opportunity for people to be able to help others and point out their blind spots, so that you all work together harmoniously.
You know it's hard to invest in, but you invested in it, knowing that maybe your friend might be upset with you or whatever.
But they were grateful.
They saw the blind spot.
That's a great one.
Thank you.
And that's why we've been married for 15 years.
And so now with the last question in the lightning round.
So As a leader, how does leadership differ if you are leading as an extrovert versus leading as an introvert?
It differs in the way that you show up, obviously.
Extroverts will show up with more gregarious attitudes.
A behavior is an attitude.
That doesn't mean that an adopted introvert won't do that sometimes, but maybe regularly.
You find extroverts are more in your face, loud and maybe even providing feedback in an open space without thinking about it.
And not thinking about it in the way that an introvert might actually be more considered.
Want to pull you aside and all that stuff.
So you get that difference.
The difference in leadership also comes from the need for one to one versus not bothering about one to one.
The extrovert might just think, I'll just say this in the meeting and I'll be done with it.
Whereas the introvert wants to have that one-to-one conversation, wants to sit with you, wants to talk to you one-on-one.
So there's a difference in that approach to maybe feedback, maybe handling people.
And there's also the element of the introvert wanting to listen more than direct.
You know, so you might have extroverts going, you just go do this, this, this, this.
I'm not wanting to listen to you.
Whereas the introvert might go, let's hear you.
What do you want to do and how do you want to do it?
And you'll be willing to listen more.
But having said that, we run a society where.
I feel like in the workplace, things are so blended.
And sometimes conformity means that this is how things are done here.
It means that you don't have the time to do those one-to-ones.
You don't have the time to behave like the introvert.
And that's why there's a lot of encouragement that introverted leadership works very well in the workplace.
Let's switch, let's make the switch now.
Let's make those switches, that's.
That's because there's a key difference and we all know that, even for the extrovert, it helps for them to once in a while be called away from everybody else from the meeting and and be told something privately rather than in the open space.
So i think those are some of the key, key differences that i find, and i think the one other one is the introverts are not wanting the limelight, so it's more easy for them to give the limelight to somebody else, to allow other people to shine, to allow voices to rise, to allow other people to rise.
They are quite happy knowing that they have the authority, they have the influence to be in the background supporting people.
But extroversion by nature is out there in your face, in the spotlight.
Look at me and, you know, things like that.
So it's finding that balance.
Sometimes you have to do that.
And sometimes extroverts have to take a back seat.
So he's finding the balance.
Yes.
Oh, this is so good.
Great job.
Great job.
That went really well.
Okay.
And so now it is time to bring in Simone, who is always waiting in the wings with a great question.
Some introverts feel confident with themselves and trust their message, but they worry that others can't truly see who they are.
They tell themselves, it's not about me, it's about them.
So my question is... The thing... The...
I always say, and I say this to help myself as well, is the reason why I'm on social media.
Because when I was little, I was asked the question would you marry a president or will you marry a millionaire?
And I said, I'll marry a millionaire.
They said, well, I said, because the president needs the wife to be out there all the time.
But the millionaire can just buy me an island.
Leave me there and I'll do philanthropy and he can go on and do his stuff.
He doesn't have to call me.
Nobody will say, where's your wife?
Does she have to attend this?
But the president, they'll be saying, where is your wife?
And I was young then.
I wasn't I was in Africa when I came and I found that Richard Branson had an island.
I was like, I came too late.
I should have married Richard Branson, you know.
So what I'm trying to say here is that that's how most introverts feel.
Like, I just don't want to be on the stage.
I just want to shrink back.
But what helped me was I told myself the message is bigger than the messenger.
I have a viewpoint that some people don't actually get, you know, because I'm listening.
And we're very introspective and think deeply about things.
There's a tendency for us to get the things that other people don't get.
And if you just keep your mouth shut, that insight never comes out.
So you put yourself out there because you want people to hear that message.
You want people to appreciate a different perspective of the world and a different viewpoint, or to point out again blind spots or things that people are not seeing.
Introverts are very good at picking people's blind spots because they take the time to actually be observant.
You know introverts want to go to the airport and just sit down and watch people pass.
You know, just watching people.
That's a pastime that introverts enjoy.
And so what if you took what you learned from just watching people and kept it to yourself and went to bed?
Who's going to benefit?
The world needs more voices that are deep.
You need more depth.
They need explaining how depth works.
And you will also pay a price because you're quiet about the truth and the wisdom that you have.
And you see stupidity everywhere.
And you're just willing to go with it.
You really want to be able to say, why is somebody not pointing this out so that this doesn't work?
You know, be able to say that and find the courage.
So in my book I talk about courageous leadership, and courageous leadership has three pillars, which is influence, elevated thinking and service excellence.
When you put yourself as a courageous leader, you want to influence.
You want to think beyond what others are thinking.
And then service excellence means you want to deliver the message so that it can impact and change lives.
Plus one extra thing.
Closed mouths never fulfill purpose.
For sure.
So part of fulfilling your purpose is being able to leave your own mark in the world, whether that is written, whether that is spoken, whether that is touching lives and action.
You have to be willing to fulfill purpose through those ways.
That was great.
Thank you.
Yeah, I really I like that idea of observing and seeing things and then recognizing that you are the person who has to carry that message.
And essentially you have to be the hero you want to see.
And so it's like if we're in a burning building and it's like well, I don't want to yell right now, but everybody here is seeming like everything's fine.
Do I have to do this?
Okay, I guess I'm going to have to be the person to yell because I'm the only one who sees it.
And that's how it is too when it comes to these conversations.
The message is bigger than the messenger.
This fire is affecting all of us.
It will.
And I'm the only one who sees it.
And so you have to recognize that you have that same weight of message.
And you might be the only person who can carry that message.
And so for the sake of the message, we have to be the messenger.
The message chooses the messenger.
And it's our job to step up and send the message when it's time.
And that's the important bit a mentor said to me years ago.
He said there are people in this world that no other voice but yours is the one that is going to transform their lives.
So and you meet them and you don't open your mouth.
Their lives stay the same.
And that was so powerful to me.
And I thought, wow, I don't want that.
It's part of why I speak on stage, because I think somebody in this crowd is going to is going to have a different life after today, you know.
Beautiful.
That's great.
Patience, this has been fantastic.
Thank you for coming back on the show.
And before you go, I want you to remind the listeners about how they can work with you, where they should connect.
And again, let them know about the book.
Yes.
So you can connect with me at the moment on LinkedIn because my website is being revamped.
So it's going to come out and be all brand new.
I've got my podcast on YouTube as well.
It's called The Quietly Confident Introvert.
So if you want to listen to just introversion and all the other things and all the challenges, there's more there.
And importantly, my book has a lot of a lot of things that will obviously take you to that depth of understanding of the challenges you're facing, but also strategies, frameworks and things that you can use is all on Amazon to get your copy, the hardback or the Kindle version.
Amazing.
Patience.
Thank you again for coming on the show.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's always fun and brilliant to be here.
Thank you so much.
