Hi, I'm Lindsay, and I'm Marshall.
Welcome to Tumble, the show where we explore stories of science discovery.
Today, we're going to talk about why and how animals play.
Oh man, is this going to be like one of those YouTube compilation videos of animals being adorable?
Well, we're going to be talking about which animals play and which ones might not.
And we'll find out why playing might be one of the most important things you can do as a kid.
For this episode all about play, we decided to invite a friend over to make it more fun.
Oh, like a playdate.
Yeah, exactly! So come on in, Taylor.
Hi, Lindsay. Hi, Marshall.
Hey there, you want to see my trucks?
So yeah, I work on a podcast called Outside In, which is another fun show about nature, and science, not always for kids but sometimes.
And the question Lindsay and I decided to answer together comes from Evelyn in Goffstown, New Hampshire.
My question is, why do some animals play and some don't?
Why do some animals play and others don't?
I always thought it was because squirrels just want to have fun.
Haha! Let's ask the listeners what they think.
Why do you think some animals play and others don't?
And how would scientists find out?
Think about it, because we'll be back with Taylor and a bunch of very playful guests.
OK, some of the best experts on play are kids, right?
So I spoke to our question asker.
I am Evelyn, and I am 7 years old.
Her sister Meredith.
I am Meredith, and I am 5 years old.
and their three -year -old friend named Shepherd. And I started by asking about some of the animals we see play the most, our pets.
What are your pets?
Dogs. What are their names?
Charlie. And does Charlie play?
I think he's too old to play.
We just play with some other dog, like hard play.
What do you mean hard play?
Like wrestling. Like wrestling and chasing.
So does that imply that there's a thing called soft play?
Like dogs quietly reading?
Curled up in blankets.
Oh but this makes me wonder, like what scientifically counts as play, because sometimes you can't tell if something's playing or it's fighting, and I think that counts for both animals and kids.
Totally. Will there be giggles or will there be tears?
Time will tell. Yeah I have to tell you, I'm on edge already.
So this seems like a good time to introduce Zhongyi Qu, a scientist who studies play in humans.
And we asked her what play is.
That's actually a really hard scientific question.
And scientists have tried to define play for hundreds of years.
It really is the kind of thing, you know it when you see it.
You know it when you see it?
Like what, what does that mean?
Well, play is easy to recognize when you're watching human kids, right?
it, but it's harder to say exactly what play is.
People have different games that they like.
Uh, if you're looking at animals, they behave in very different ways.
So if you want to find a definition that works for both children and adults and different animals, it can get really hard. Yeah, I mean, I guess that does sound tricky because everyone has their own idea of fun.
But scientists have come up with a handy five point checklist that we can use to tell if something is play, or something else.
And it works for both kids and animals.
All right, a check list, let's have at it.
Okay, here it goes.
Thing number one. Play should be non -functional.
Which basically just means it shouldn't be like work.
Play is just for fun and has no other point.
Exactly. So you're playing tag, you're not trying to practice running.
Here's number two. It should be voluntary.
which just means that you're doing it because you want to, not because someone else told you to do it.
What about playing with someone exceptionally bossy?
Maybe not so fun. Sure.
Number three is that play is quote, unserious.
Unserious, what do you mean?
It's like a silly version of a normal behavior.
Okay. So here's number four.
Play is repetitive, but you try out different ways of doing it.
So you're kind of doing the same thing many times but changing it a little bit in between Okay, so kind of like like all the different varieties of tag like you play normal tag But then it turns to freeze tag or zombie tag or blob tag.
That's my favorite As an adult I've really come to appreciate slow tag.
What's slow tag. It's where you just don't run as fast I think that's just how we play And the last thing on the play checklist, number five, is you've gotta be safe.
Playing with a lion hunting you is not fun.
Yes. Being safe means that you're free to play.
So you're not in danger, right?
You're not hungry. You're feeling like it's a comfortable place, and you can kind of just do your own thing.
So that's all five things on the checklist that define play.
Which brings us to the next part of our question — how do we tell who's doing it and who's not?
Junyi says that even when scientists are armed with this handy five -point checklist, it's tricky to study play in animals.
Or you can just tell an octopus go play, the way that I sometimes tell kids to go play and see what happens.
Ok, octopus, go play!
Octopus, why are you not listening to me?
Yeah, I mean, I guess I can see why this is a hard subject to study, but on the other hand I feel like there are some animals where it's really obvious.
You can tell when a dog has the zoomies, or when a cat is playing with a ball and string.
Yeah, and some animals even seem to be playing the same games that we do.
There are bonobos that will engage in social play, and they'll sort of tease each other, and then kind of almost laugh right?
There are studies of rats that play hide and seek.
Men, rats would be so good at hide and seek.
They're very good at squishing into little places, unfortunately.
To be honest, I feel like I'm constantly playing hide and seek with rats anyway.
Okay, so when it looks like some animals are playing, they actually are, but what about the ones that don't?
How do we know what their deal is or even that they're not playing?
Well, we'll try to answer that question and talk a little bit more about rat games after a break.
Play break. Ooh, what should we play?
Ummm... Marco. Polo?
Marco. Polo. Marco.
Marco. I don't think this is gonna work.
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OK, we're back. So we've already learned a lot about what play is, but we're still wondering why some animals play, and maybe why others don't.
Man, that's the million dollar question.
so if whoever asked that wants to get into play research they absolutely should.
So this is our second scientist for the episode his name is Jackson Hamm and he got interested in animals just like a lot of other people do.
As a kid you know my favorite thing to watch was nature documentaries and if I wasn't watching that I'd love to go outside in nature and just watch animals or go to the zoo.
Now one of the things we've learned is that it can be really hard to define play scientifically speaking, but for some animals it's also pretty easy to recognize.
For example Jackson spends a lot of time studying rats.
I think if you saw a pair of rats playing, you would know.
And if you saw a pair of rats fighting, you would also know.
Just like if you saw maybe two kids on the playground having a lot of fun versus something that's escalating into something a little bit more serious.
So that's like the whole fighting versus play -fighting issue.
Yeah, now before we To go any further, I want to check in with our kid experts Shepherd, Evelyn, and Meredith and make some guesses about which animals play and which animals don't.
Do you think squirrels play?
Yeah! Maybe, maybe foxes.
Dolphins play. Sometimes they could play with balls.
Maybe giraffes play.
Giraffes? Yeah. Okay.
Do you think there are animals that don't play?
Like do you think worms play?
No. They are too slow to play.
Bees don't. They do everything.
Yes, I do. Ooh, you know what they say?
All work and no play makes B a dull B.
I don't know. I guess I can imagine it both ways, because bees do seem too busy to play.
They're definitely getting stuff done.
On the other hand, flying around like that does look fun.
What does Jackson say?
So we definitely have some clues as to maybe why some animals aren't playing.
So you know if we look at a bunch of different animals and we just compare how large their brain is that sort of starts to add up to a bit of a picture where bigger -brained animals like dolphins, humans, gorillas, they engage in play more than something with small brains, you know, say a mouse or something like that.
So for a long time, scientists thought that big brains equaled more play.
But that stopped adding up when scientists really started to look at smaller animals, like Jackson's rats.
They have very small brains, and they engage in lots of play.
And more recently, even bumblebees have been found to play.
Wait, so bumblebees do play?
Like what are they playing?
Are they doing like bee quidditch?
So bumblebees, basically all they do, not to limit what bumblebees are doing because it's amazing, but all they do is roll around balls.
Wait, all they do is roll around balls?
They're just like, oh my gosh, I want to roll balls.
Yes. I guess, where do they find the balls that are small enough?
I don't see like a bee section at the sporting goods store.
So, Jackson told us that in recent years we've had to rethink a lot of our ideas about which animals play and which animals don't.
He said that sometimes that's because animals might behave differently in the wild than they do in a safe environment like a laboratory.
So, for example, for a long time we thought octopus did not play.
Every time you go and look at them in the wild they do not play.
As soon as you bring them into the aquarium, they play.
So I guess you can't tell an octopus to go play.
They'll just do it on their own, especially if there's nothing there to eat them.
So rule number five, they're safe.
Another reason we might not see play is that we don't always know how to look for play behaviors.
So one example is komodo dragons.
So those are those really big lizards that, you know, have venomous saliva and they're just massive.
But they move really slowly.
So it doesn't look like they're doing a whole lot, but once you speed up the video clip so they look like there's moving more at what sort of speed a human might move, you start to see...
hang on, they're playing.
Slow mo play, I'm starting to see it's hard to know why some animals don't play if we're still discovering that some of the ones we thought didn't actually do.
Yeah, and scientists have even seen behaviors in fish and frogs that might fit the scientific definition of play.
So, like, they're playing leapfrog?
Or Frogger, if they have an Atari.
I feel like Frogger wouldn't actually be fun for frogs.
No, it seems very difficult for the frogs.
It seems like rule number five, they're not safe.
So, actually, scientists have observed some frogs and fish riding little air bubbles in an aquarium to the top of their tank.
So it's like a little froggy rollercoaster.
Maybe. Jackson says there isn't really enough evidence to say these things are play for sure, but they do look kind of fun.
Put yourself in their shoes.
It's really hard to pretend you're a bug and go, Are you playing?
because they might just play in a completely different way to anything that we recognize.
So, it sounds like Jackson is saying that we can't rule out anything when it comes to what might be play in who and what might be doing it.
Exactly. It's kind of like playing long and complicated board games might be fun for someone like Taylor, for example, but look really boring to me.
Hey, you don't want to play a board game for four hours?
Not all in one sitting, no. Just imagine doing it with a sloth, it would take 12 hours.
But yes, Lindsey, that is kind of the point.
When we ask, why do some animals play and others don't?
We just can't say for sure that animals don't play, we might just not know how to recognize it yet.
Okay, so that's like looking at why there's play on a species level, but what about on the individual level?
Like, what do we, or dogs, or squirrels, or bumblebees, like, what do we all get out of play?
That's a really good question, and Jackson is asking it too.
Is there any function or is there any benefit to playing?
So is there a good reason for playing, besides that it's fun?
Exactly. Well, let's check in with our kid experts and see what they think one last time.
Do you think play helps us?
Does it do something?
Like, what is play for?
Energy! When you're playing, it can also make you strong because running games make you very strong.
So to answer this question, it's kind of helpful to think about the different types of play we see in both animals and humans.
So for example, there's social play.
Yeah, playing together.
This could be roughhousing or wrestling or even snuggling.
Then there's object play, like we heard about with the bumblebees tossing a ball or playing with a hula hoop.
And finally there's movement play.
That could be getting the zoomies, or just jumping around for fun.
So in each of these categories, you might even see what Jackson calls handicapping, where the people or animals playing might purposefully make something harder than it is.
Just for fun. So for example in monkeys they'll often put something over top of their eyes and then go out on a rope So, you know they've made crossing that rope much more challenging because they can't see anymore And all these different types of play they help us learn the skills that we might need as grown -ups So when you see like a kitten practicing stalking a bug Even if they're just having fun, they're just kind of practicing for the real thing exactly What's neat is that humans have a way of blending these different play categories together, or taking it one step further.
Pretending you're a pirate while hopping on one foot and playing the floor is lava.
I do that every night.
So Jackson says studying rats has taught us some really interesting things about the benefits of play.
So not just what it teaches us, but how it helps us as we're growing up.
Some early studies with rats...
you take a juvenile rat and you grow them up by themselves, so they don't have any play partners.
Found that as adults, they have a lot of problems. What kinds of problems?
They have problems with working memory...
you know, if they have to make a decision and they just learn something, they'll forget it.
They have a problem with their social skills, so they get into fights really easily.
Wow, so he's saying it's like, not just about being fun, missing out on play really affects things like memory and decision -making, that's crazy.
Yeah but there was a problem with these early studies because rats are really social animals.
So if you take out just one rat and have him grow up alone in a lab, how do you know those kinds of problems are happening just because they're not getting enough playtime?
Are all of these problems that they have as adults because they didn't play or just Just because they were alone for so long, right?
I mean, can you imagine growing up alone?
Oh, OK. So I see. I mean, it's not just the playing that these rats are missing out on.
It's the hanging out.
Yeah. It's the hang time.
So Jackson and his colleagues came up with a new idea to really focus in on the effects of play.
They partnered fun and unfun rats together in pairs.
Rather than having these juveniles grow up alone, we have them grow up with a partner that's just not very playful.
So, they get all the social contact, they get all the huddling and the cuddling, but their friend that they grow up with doesn't want to play.
OK, so they're pairing the rats with the boring rat and seeing if it has a negative impact on their friends.
I mean, who hasn't had a teacher that does that?
And what Jackson discovered is that the rats that grow up with an unplayful partner do have the same problems that came up in earlier studies.
They're not great at socializing, and they have trouble with memory.
And the part of their brains responsible for decision making is actually wired differently.
Wow, so play really makes a difference.
Yeah. Here's the wildest part.
We actually find that it's not the amount of play that they engage in, but instead it's actually the turn taking.
In other words, it's not about how much they play, but how they're cooperating or actually taking turns while they're playing.
So like when you're playing with your friends, taking turns is actually the most important part.
Yeah. So it's all about sharing.
It's all about turn -taking.
And it's about learning, I think, that things don't always go your way.
To me, that sounds like a pretty direct connection between human and animal play there.
Yeah, it turns out play isn't just fun, it's also good for you.
Yeah, but we still don't have to think about play that way.
Play is just for fun!
But if you're curious about the science of play, Jackson says there's a lot left to learn.
You know, in science we're always working with our best hypotheses and our best predictions, but they can change with time.
And that's the really fun part about science is that there's always questions to be asked, even if you think you already know the answer.
Now that we've explored the world of animal play, think about how you would study play.
Choose a test subject.
It could be a pet, wild animals in your area, or even your friends.
observe behaviors that you think could be described as play, and think about the questions you could ask about it.
What would you need in order to answer your questions?
Imagine designing an experiment.
We'd love to hear what you come up with.
Email us at tumbledpodgast at gmail .com.
Thanks today to Junyi Chu, postdoctoral fellow in the Department of Psychology at Stanford University, and to Jackson Ham, PhD candidate in neuroscience at the University of Lethbridge.
You can watch our interview with Jackson Ham and a bonus interview video available to patrons when you support our show on Patreon at the one dollar level or higher.
That's just one dollar.
That's at patreon .com slash tumble podcast. Then head to our website at science podcast for kids dot com to learn more about how animals play, and we'll have a playlist of our favorite family -friendly episodes of Outside In.
In fact, you could just subscribe to Outside In now.
It's one of my all -time favorite podcasts.
This episode was written by Taylor Quimby and researched and edited by Lindsay.
Taylor Quimby also produced this episode.
Sarah Roberson Lentz is our managing editor and designed the episode art.
I'm Lindsay Patterson, and I'm the executive producer of Tumble.
And I'm Marshall Escamillo, and I usually do all the music.
But this time, it was by Blue Dot Sessions.
Tumble is a production of tumble media.
Thanks for listening and stay tuned for more stories of science discovery!
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