You're tuned in to Roundtable.
I'm Steve Hatherly today with Yishan and Feifei.
Coming up.
Well, before the break we talked about urban mining and what we can do with construction materials and how we can reuse them and it better for our environment.
But this time it's a little bit more personal.
What if every green purchase you made earned you points that you could easily use?
A major new national plan is betting that a points for discount system is the key to unlocking mass green consumption.
We'll get into that.
And then where you sit in your office absolutely matters, because your metabolism has a silent partner.
And that partner A surprising study shows us how natural light fine-tunes your body's energy use, while artificial lighting throws it off.
Could redesigning our sun-deprived offices be the next big win for productivity, health and maybe even the planet?
Our podcast listeners, that's you, can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcasts.
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So send your voice notes our way with any of the thoughts that you might have on the things that we discuss here on the show.
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And now...
What if buying green or eco-friendly products didn't mean spending more, but could actually save you money?
Hmm, sounds interesting.
Well, this change in consumer economics is at the heart of the National Action Plan to promote green consumption.
It came out just days ago.
The plan moves beyond green living and beyond the choice of morality to just a financially smart one.
20 policy measures spanning seven key areas are now in place, and it's a topic that we could probably discuss for hours.
But today we're going to focus on one piece of the puzzle the green consumption point system that the plan aims to roll out nationwide.
Rolling anything out nationwide here in China is always a challenge to do.
We're going to find that it's a challenge here as well, but it's a very ambitious goal.
And a very cool goal at that.
But let's start with the green consumption point system.
What is it and how does it work?
So yeah, this whole system is a mechanism that's designed to transform the abstract value of environmental protection into something tangible.
That's liquid assets for everyday individual consumers.
So I really like this idea of, you know, what we do is...
It's just minor, big or small contribution on just making the world a bit greener.
But what this whole system is granting is they give you rewards in the form of credits or points.
And that's something tangible getting a pack of eggs or getting a coupon for your next supermarket shopping.
So that's like small trading for goods on an individual base.
And that's supported by the Ministry of Commerce, who is now spearheading the development of an online and offline universal redemption system.
So this addresses the fragmentation of previous pilot programs and also allow points earned in one context, such as using public transit, to be used for discounts in another, like going to the supermarket and get vouchers, etc.
And that's actually been happening in some parts of China already.
Yeah, for a while.
Yeah.
For example, in the city of Wuhan, they have platforms like called Wutan Jianghu.
That's a very cool name.
They basically use digital technology to track 11 types of behavior, like taking the subway or cycling.
And they are also collaborating with a lot of companies when it comes to, for example, supermarkets I would say parks and convenience stores, where consumers and residents can use the points that they get and to exchange for things on that platform.
And as of January, the number of platform users on Wutan Jianghu has exceeded 2 million.
And more than 20 million emission reduction actions have been recorded in total.
That means a carbon emission reduction surpassing 40,000 tons.
So across the country then, what would be some examples?
Wuhan would be one example, but that's just from one particular city.
Are there other cities or other programs that have launched a similar style of system?
Very interestingly.
For example, in a village in Ningbo, Zhejiang province, the villagers themselves can carry what's called a green passbook where they, if they sort household waste properly or they volunteer in the community, they can earn points, and these points can be exchanged for everyday items like rice vinegar, soap or even services in the community, like a family, doctor visits or health checkups.
It's very tangible and very, i think, attractive for villagers.
You know, i can exchange for some soap, And also there are some other programs in a city called Luzhou in Sichuan province.
They also have a project called Green Sprout Points.
And that brought together more than 60 local companies, seven universities and several other social organizations.
And over 70,000 people have taken part with more than 2,000 active users every day.
So millions of points have been redeemed.
That's translated into real action, measurable results, meaning more than 37 tons of carbon emission reduced.
Yeah, and there's also a game called Ants Forest, right?
This is done by Alibaba.
This has also been around for a while.
How does that game work?
This is kind of a cool way to incentivize people to do the right thing for the planet.
Thing is about encouraging eco-friendly habits and also fight desertification, which is something that they deeply are rooted for.
So whenever you do something green in your daily life, like paying a bill online instead of using paper, the app will notice.
And then it will give you this green energy quote unquote green energy bubble that accumulates in your app and lets you grow a cute little virtual tree on your phone that can eventually turn out to be a real tree somewhere.
Say, for example, in the desertification affected area that the ant forest is trying to plant on an annual basis.
They actually will name that tree based on the account's name, right?
They name it after you.
They even have cameras yeah, so you can check on your tree.
In the middle of i think i have three trees one in gansu, one in mongolia, in a mongol, one in mongolia and i don't remember the third one.
But i can check on them through an online i don't know video platform.
Does this game so okay?
So through that game, i can have a tree planted in my name, which is a wonderful thing, But that doesn't put anything back in my pocket, which makes me sound really terrible.
But do you see my point here?
Previously.
I see it me personally.
I see it as more of a welfare, helping to grow more trees, kind of thing mechanism.
But now it includes dozens of scenarios across five major categories, from green and reduced travel to cutting paper and plastic use, recycling and improving energy efficiency.
So Ant Forest is also expanding their service coverage from just welfare growing trees to many more aspects.
And it has even expanded into areas like nature reserves and marine protection.
So what's more innovative is how these low carbon actions are tied to finance, I think.
Well, the reason I said does it put anything back in my pocket is because that's kind of.
The theme of this concept is that to get people to do something good for the environment, the best way to do that is to give something back.
Now, when we talked about the villages and the examples that we gave before in Wuhan and in Ningbo, those are done within, within the city or within the village itself.
Scaling up to doing it on a national level presents a number of difficulties.
How does that get done?
Well, most of the programs or city pilot projects that we talked about are just within a very small scale area.
That also means that well, I think one of the key sticking point is that a lot of this system because you need a system to collect your data, measure your points and then you redeem whatever gifts or services you want.
And that rely on a company, some sort of a company.
And different companies would have different systems, different methods different, especially when it comes to carbon accounting methods.
And meaning that it can be very confusing sometimes.
For example, if you are a citizen, if you are a resident in Wuhan, you take a subway ride.
You can earn some points on Ant Forest.
You can also earn some points on Wuhan Jianghu, their city's platform, through the same ride.
You're double earning.
Yeah, you're double earning.
And also, who has the say over how many points I get from this subway ride?
They come up with their own systems.
Yeah.
4nForest, I think, is about 5 grams of points on that platform.
But why 5?
Yeah, so it's like...
It's kind of like each platform is its own store and they each have their own loyalty program.
So if you have multiple apps on your phone, you can use multiple apps for the same trip.
And I guess one of the problems with that is it's going to inflate the numbers, isn't it?
Also...
With each company using its own method to calculate how many points or carbon points an action is worth.
That might create an inconsistent pattern as well.
Because if one app, if you bike one kilometer and that's worth one point.
But on another app, if you bike one kilometer, that's worth 10 points.
There's inconsistencies there, too.
And also competition.
More companies will just raise the points and sort of attract you to perform on their – stay active on their platform.
That kind of works like inflation in the economy.
Yeah.
Well, it also weakens the trust in the whole system, because your environmental impact isn't really consistent – consistently measured.
So it's hard to put a number on exactly what is being done and in terms of its effectiveness as well.
So that's why, under the current plan, the government we are actually trying to support the industry associations in exploring just how, or in what ways, there can be a unified green consumption point system that works both for online platforms and offline.
And retailers, e-commerce platforms and other skate holders.
These different parties can all be guided to standardized points collection.
And that not only benefit from the business side, but also for just day-to-day individuals as well.
We have a clear clue on how many points we can get.
And then there's a unified line or price tag quote unquote, for how many of our credit can be exchanged into what?
I think if that is to come to life one day, that's going to be a very good news.
And also I think the plan is more ambitious than what we see on the ground on Ant Forest or in Wuhan right now.
They are hoping to include purchases of green products.
Like, for example, if you buy eco-friendly carrot, you can earn some points compared to buy a regular carrot.
Or if you choose to buy a greener home appliance, or if you participate in the trading programs.
If you sort your waste more properly, that can also mean that you can earn some points.
Ideally, hopefully, it can earn you some points on the system.
But the thing is how to measure that.
Well, and also the transparency.
Because if, okay, let's use the eco-friendly carrot, for example.
If a farmer knows or if a marketing company knows.
Hey, if I slap eco-friendly sticker on this carrot and people are incentivized to buy eco-friendly carrots, then that's going to help out my carrot business.
Do you see what I mean?
So there needs to be accountability there, too, in terms of the products.
And they're tackling that.
That's what they hope to do.
The green products.
They want them to be transparent in terms of their traceability and their certification information to make sure that they are what they say they are, because otherwise that could be a potential problem there.
I don't know in terms of cost.
I didn't even consider this until right now but the products that are for sale.
If the green products are costing more than We'll come back to the carrot.
If the eco carrot is that much more expensive than a non-eco...
I don't know what the price difference there would be.
That would be taken into consideration for consumers too, though, wouldn't it?
Yeah.
And also when it comes to, I think right now, most of the platforms that we see are calculating based on carbon, like how many carbon that you helped reduce?
And for example, I think on some platforms, cycling for five kilograms probably means you saved five grams of carbon.
But when it comes to coming back to the carrot buying an eco-friendly carrot, comparing to a regular carrot how many carbons that we are talking about?
Yeah, what's the difference?
Yeah, that means you need to look at the production process.
Fertilizers used transportation, storage.
I mean, it's a very big map.
And that means you need to collect data on every step of this carrot from in the soil to your table.
So who is going to do that?
Who has the right to do that?
Well, there is a plan in place.
Again, it's called the 2026 National Action Plan to Promote Green Consumption.
I mentioned it at the beginning.
It's only days old.
It was January 5th.
When the Ministry of Commerce, in collaboration with eight other government departments, including the National Development and Reform Commission, that's the market planner, also the Ministry of Ecology and Environment and the People's Bank of China too, they released a nationwide action plan.
Again, it's called to promote greener consumption.
And there are 20 different measures across seven different areas.
Yeah, the core objectives is to just move away from isolated green acts and towards a comprehensive low-carbon lifestyle integrated into the national economic fabric.
And that includes, for example, supply of essential products, where they prioritize the availability of green agricultural products and high-energy efficiency home appliances.
We see that happening already.
We have that label indicating how, what level your small home appliances is you consuming energy on a unit base, and that's like clearly labeling things up for the consumers.
And next step they're going to do that for the agricultural products too, yeah.
And then there's the transportation transition, where the nevs purchase is also incentivized, while strengthening the automotive industry chain and developing innovative travel scenarios such as RV camping.
RV camping, that's a good place to start with.
Also, they are very interesting.
They also cover catering accommodation and household services, meaning the cleaners that you call into your homes are also covered in this plan that they need to use, for example, more sustainable materials, more sustainable products in the cleaning job that they are hired to do.
And there are also... That is linked to other things like financial support.
That's why the central bank is involved.
This is a big one.
So this plan...
Is underpinned by really aggressive financial policies.
So this is what's happening.
So the People's Bank of China.
They've set up a 500 billion yuan central bank lending facility for science and technology, innovation and technological upgrading.
This facility will specifically support large scale equipment renewal in some key sectors.
It will also ensure that manufacturers have the capital to transition towards zero carbon production lines.
That's really important.
Also, the plan will expand the coverage of the carbon emission reduction facility.
It will encourage commercial banks to provide more preferential interest rates to enterprises and individuals with high green credit scores.
Now, all of this is really, really important because it levels the playing field.
If a company is well established it's been around for a long time and successful, it might have the capital to transition a lot easier than perhaps a startup who hadn't planned this for this in their budget.
So it levels things out financially for the companies.
It incentivizes them to make this step too.
And basically the plan is about basically reshaping the demand side when it comes to trying to push the society going to greener practices.
They are rewarding consumers for choosing sustainable products, and then manufacturers and producers and suppliers will also be inclined to choose the more sustainable methods.
It's different from the old ways of you know I'm going to raise the bar for companies and factories.
If you don't follow, I'm going to punish you.
I think this way is taking a more positive route compared to the punishment.
Yeah, rewarding positive behavior as opposed to punishing negative ones.
Yeah, exactly.
It's like parenting almost.
Good parenting.
I want to go back to us now, because I think it's quite clear that yes, getting this done, scaling this up to do it on a national level, is going to be a little bit complicated.
But it's definitely worth it because when things are done on a smaller scale it's easier to do because you have a limited number perhaps of platforms available running these programs, doing it nationally.
You have multiple platforms that are kind of competing against each other, but it's worth it.
So from a business point of view, we learned as well that there are incentives in place from the business side of things.
What about for us?
And I think this is almost the important, the most important point, because maybe we can go back to Wuhan just to focus on one specific city.
The reason I say it's the most important thing is for us is because we're not trying to convince people who already cycle every day to continue cycling.
They're already doing it, right?
What we're trying to do here is we're trying to flip the non-cyclers into cyclers, the non-subway riders into subway riders.
Now that requires lifestyle change.
That's very difficult.
If you're like me, I like my habits.
So getting people to change their routine is a very, very challenging thing to do.
Let's go back to Wuhan.
What's the population of Wuhan?
There's more than 13 million people, people living in the city, and how many people did you say were involved in the program there?
They have two more than two million users on that platform.
That's about 15 percent of the population.
Yeah yes, a lot, but still can do more, i guess.
Um, because i think on that platform we checked very carefully before the show on how exactly you can redeem on that platform If you take a bus trip that earns you more than 200 grams of carbon emission reductions.
And each kilometer traveled by subway earns you close to 80 grams.
And each kilometer you cycled earned you more than 90 grams.
And these credits points are automatically credit to your personal carbon account on that platform.
And over time you can redeem for things like taxi voucher, shopping coupons.
I think there are also tickets for parks, or eggs in a supermarket, a sandwich in a convenience store.
This is what I want to know.
So how many, how many carbon points do I need for eggs?
Do you know what I mean?
Because this is what people want to know.
Indeed.
Is it enough to make a difference?
It's about 5,000 points for 6X.
That means...
12 days of workday commutes on your bus.
So there is one participant, active practitioner of this low carbon lifestyle, of wu tan zhang, who and he said i once used 20 000 grams of carbon reduction credits to redeem a bottle of wine and 3 000 grams to redeem a 50 off supermarket coupon.
So that's how these credits can be redeemed into tangible goods.
And then in the meantime, it can also fit for money to pay for your bank loans or mortgage.
So that's starting from March the 1st last year, where Wutan Jianghu actually partnered with China Minsheng Bank to link carbon emission reductions with bank loan interest.
So the program runs through December 31st last year.
And under that scheme residents can redeem interest rebates at a rate of 1000 grams of carbon reduction equals 2 yuan.
I heard somebody used a few thousand or a few well, a huge bunch of her credits to reduce 90 yuan in one go of reducing the bank loan interest.
So that's how that actually transferred into money.
Well, the good thing is that it's applicable in many different ways, because people are not all the same and people have different habits.
So the guy who used up his carbon reduction points to buy a bottle of wine?
Well, not everyone drinks wine.
So you can spend it on eggs, or you can spend it at the park for tickets for your family, for your kids, or on your interest payment for your loan at the bank.
If I'm in charge of marketing this nationwide program to people, i think it's important that you put it in terms that people can understand right, if you say to me, if i open up my phone and i say, and it says hey steve, if you take the bus one day, you get how many points?
Was it?
200, more than 200 grams?
You get 200 grams of carbon points, my brain says huh.
But if the message says, if you take the bus twice a day for a couple of weeks, you can get a free pack of eggs,
Well, now that makes more sense.
But now it makes sense to my brain.
And now I'm immediately more incentivized because I have a tangible goal.
Right.
I have a tangible reward.
So I think I don't know.
Do you agree or disagree?
But I think how this is marketed to people is is going to make a tremendous difference on its success.
I think one of the reasons that they are not doing that Steve, is because it's very difficult to put a number on things.
For example, in Wuhan, each bus trip earns people more than 200 grams of carbon emission reductions.
But that could be different, for example, in Beijing.
Because why is it more than 200 grams for bus trip?
Why that cycling is less?
Why taking subway is even smaller number?
Every city has its own methodology.
Yes, because when it comes to this carbon accounting activities, each different places have their own methodologies, meaning they have different methods to do that.
And then they also need to take into account into like population density and so on and so forth.
So it's not that simple.
Like I said, when you're doing things on a national level, nothing is simplified.
That's for sure.
Really cool project, though.
All right.
That's it for today's roundtable.
Thanks for being with us for today.
For Feifei and Yushan, I'm Steve.
Have a good one.
We'll see you next time.
