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In the vast wide ocean that is one's potential dating pool.
Having a type can help guide you to the right person.
A type can be like a trail map, one that leads you to a path of deeper connection.
Once that first hurdle of as the smart, wisecracking best friend character, the one whose story you could actually relate to,
In Reality Bites, one of the most 90s movies ever.
She is Winona Ryder's friend who works at The Gap, and she has plenty of sarcastic and deep things to say about everything.
I'm manager of The Gap.
I'm responsible for all those t-shirts, French cut, v-neck, ribbed, what have you.
Dude, I'm in trouble.
No, you're not, Vic.
I know you can do it.
The way Janine Garofalo sarcastically says, what have you, about those Gap t-shirts.
In the 1990s, I would imitate that line all the time.
Comedy gold.
In the 90s, Hollywood liked to try to make us believe that a person like Janine Garofalo was not an obvious leading lady.
We still have these issues in today's world.
But it's interesting because when I think about who the millennial version of Janine Garofalo is, I think of Aubrey Plaza, who everyone knows as a leading lady.
Janine Garofalo played a hilarious and very annoyed character in Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion, which came out in 1997.
Our 10-year high school reunion in Tucson.
You're kidding me.
It's been 10 years since high school?
God, where have I been?
I'm stumped.
Where?
Anywhere you going?
I'd rather put this out in my ass.
When she did star as the main character of a movie, sometimes the plot tried to tell me she wasn't hot, even though she was beautiful.
A good example of this is the 1996 rom-com called The Truth About Cats and Dogs, in which Janine Garofalo plays a veterinarian slash radio host who lies about her appearance after being asked out by a listener of her radio show.
Wait, I forgot to ask you what you look like.
Oh, why do you need to know that?
Just so i can recognize you.
Oh, what do you think i look like?
I don't know, if the voice is anything to go by, you look great.
I'm five foot ten blonde thin, hard to miss.
Okay, i'll see you there.
Okay, you won't.
Janine's character is worried that this super hunky guy who likes her voice won't be attracted to her in real life.
So she sends her hot blonde friend, played by uma thurman, to pretend to be her.
The super hunky guy would be falling in love with janine's voice and personality, but uma thurman's body.
The way you talk, the things you say.
You're the voice.
I'm just the body.
It's a take on that good old Cyrano story.
But Jordan saw this Janine movie and was confused.
So I would have been seven when it came out, probably eight when we rented it.
And I remember watching this movie as a kid and just fundamentally not understanding the conflict of the story.
Jeanine Garofalo is so much more attractive than Uma Thurman.
She's so much more attractive than Uma Thurman.
It's not even a competition.
I don't think Uma Thurman's unattractive, but i can't imagine there being any sort of competition between the two.
Once i kind of had a grasp on what the parameters of this story was.
Thinking like this guy's clearly a moron, why is she interested in him?
Like not only does he find Uma Thurman more attractive than her, but like he can't figure out.
These are two totally different ladies.
At eight years old, Jordan was still just a bit too young to understand that these feelings were the beginning of a crush.
It wasn't until he was in the sixth grade when he recognized these feelings for what they were a romantic preference for Janine Garofalo types.
How did this type play out when you started actually trying to date?
Were you successful with this type?
Oh, yes.
Okay, I pause because like okay well, what defines successful when it comes to romance and then judging my entire history against that?
And if I was to do that, the answer would be no.
But I think when I was like old enough to start talking to girls, the like social part of it isn't what i found hard like.
This is probably where my age factors into this a lot more.
I started going to shows when i was in seventh grade because there was an all ages venue that was in a town that was like equidistant to five other school districts.
So I remember when I started going to shows it was like I fucking discovered the new world.
There was like five other schools worth of girls for me to talk to.
It was insane.
So a lot of my early romantic interests were kind of just colored by the limited types of people who were around me.
Jordan did see a lot of Janine-esque types at these rock shows around his hometown.
He figured he liked who he liked because it was what he knew.
And then, when he moved to New York City at 19 years old, he was exposed to a lot more types of people.
And yet he still had his type, brunettes. glasses, maybe a little indifference, etc.
And that type really locked into place when, at one point in his early 20s, Jordan meets Janine Garofalo.
People say, do not meet your heroes.
But if your hero or crush is Janine Garofalo, I guess, do it?
So this is my 21st birthday.
I worked at a bookstore that had a weekly comedy night.
And the year I turned 21, that night happened on my birthday.
And she did... a set at the comedy night that was happening in this bookstore that I worked in.
I was very drunk obviously, and she was smoking outside and I smoked with her and we were talking and I am pretty certain I told her that she was the first crush i ever had on somebody and she is like the basis of, like the stock woman i am attracted to.
I'm like i would say i'm 90 sure i said that to her and i am 80 sure she apologized, But we were talking and she's like I have to walk home.
Come with me.
Like, keep walking with me.
And we walked from Soho to the Gristetti's by Washington Square where the conversation ended and she was like okay well, I have to buy groceries now.
Have a good night.
There are some things Jordan told us about this walk off the record, not because anything happened other than a conversation, but because Jordan respects Janine Garofalo and he literally wants to keep the wonderful memory of their conversation to himself.
But the point is, it lived up to his dream.
And with that experience locked in, his type was set.
Over the years, Jordan has dated many kinds of women.
They're not all like Janine Garofalo, but that type is always the ideal.
Brunette, glasses, acerbic, cool.
And while he has dated some of these women, In the long run this has not brought him to partnership.
It's often been a pursuit that leads to starting over again.
At the release of this episode, Jordan is single.
One wants to ask the question, is Jordan's type getting in the way of his happiness?
I'm sure you can tell.
But in talking to Jordan I know he doesn't have trouble finding and relating to women who probably want to date him.
He is a fantastic talker and flirter.
I think that's why he likes women who hold their own, too.
This is why I want to dive into what his type means and what Jordan wants in general a very forceful, energetic person.
And if I'm around somebody who is at all shy or passive, I spend all of my energy thinking about am I letting this person talk?
Do they feel comfortable?
And like I
I'm not a submissive person at all really.
But when I know that I don't need to worry about if the other person can hang or not, it's so attractive because it allows me to not be as neurotic about making space for the other person, because i know that they will either one, tell me to shut the up if i'm like going on like a tangent about something nobody cares about or two, if i do say something that they don't like, they will spot it and call it out immediately and i don't need to worry about them wilting over a thing that I haven't thought twice about.
That happened two and a half weeks ago.
Yeah.
It's what a luxury especially for somebody who is taking great care to make sure the other person is having a good social experience to be able to relax like that with somebody.
No, I get it.
I I am very attracted to women who are good at talking.
A lot of it is just like knowing that somebody is good conversationally and doesn't let somebody walk over them in terms of like dictating what they're going to talk about, like the ability to be like very warm and welcoming but also direct a conversation without being forceful about it.
What have been the limitations?
Like when you're sort of drawn to women who are of a certain ilk.
I don't know if that's the way to say it.
I'm sure they have all these positive things.
They're social.
They're funny.
They're sarcastic.
They look cool in a jacket, whatever.
I'm like saying all the things I like about a jacket is a huge art.
Truly, truly.
Lindsay, we're from Freaks and Geeks.
Oh, my God.
Immediate poll.
Who's the hottest woman in my head wearing a jacket?
It's Linda Cardellini.
I think that's for a lot of people.
Yeah.
I hadn't actually seen the show Freaks and Geeks until about 2020.
And I found myself platonically in love with Linda Cardellini's character, Lindsay, who is so cool.
Smart deep, Janine Garofalo-esque and worth noting, the kind of character or type who can also seem unapproachable, to some at least.
With that woman, those women, a lot of times they don't have time for you.
I mean, I'm pointing literally to you.
How have they been unavailable to you?
The limitations are a general emotional unavailability. a thing that has happened a lot is me developing crushes on women who either are gay or like are about to become fully gay i'm sure jasmine has talked about this jordan is talking about jasmine who produces this podcast i'll explain more about that when we come back. energy bars, fiber bars, protein bars, but I tend to like the kind that seem like a candy bar and are actually not that great for me.
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I loved the jokes, the sense of family bonds.
I don't find that in a lot of the rest of the world expertise with heart from all around New England.
From the Boston Globe, listen to Say More.
We're back.
We're talking to Jordan about how he has a type.
He imprinted on actress and comedian Janine Garofalo when he was little, and now he longs for and pursues glasses-wearing smart women who know how to tell a sarcastic joke and also may have no strong need for him.
This is not a hardship.
These women are great.
But a lot of them just don't want Jordan very much, at least not in the long run.
And that is part of Jordan's story.
This is where I must say that I know very little about real-life Janine Garofalo's dating history.
She has said in interviews that people have incorrectly assumed she is gay and Jewish.
What she is is none of my business.
All I know is that, throughout my appreciating her work, my only assumption has been she does whatever she wants and she's not doing anything for the male gaze, as in G-A-Z-E.
I only bring this up because in Jordan's life, when he sees a woman who reminds him of Janine Garofalo, they do have something in common.
They either aren't into having a relationship with him, or it's even more complicated than that.
At this point, I shall reveal...
One of the women Jordan's been into, who is now one of his close friends, happens to be the producer of this show Jasmine, who is witty brunette sardonic, wears cool t-shirts with a blazer and is a lesbian.
I want to get into the Jasmine of it all because I feel like this is a good case study.
How did you meet Jasmine?
Instagram, right?
I think that's how we started talking, but I knew her because I listened to a show she worked on.
Back in 2021, Jasmine was hosting The Cut podcast from New York Magazine, and Jordan was a listener.
After listening to a few of her episodes, Jordan found Jasmine's Instagram.
And what did you think of her when you saw her on Instagram?
Thought she was cute.
So Jordan sent her a message.
I think we were DMing because I saw that Jasmine liked Archie comics, and I love Archie comics.
And we met because she was making an episode about Britney Spears and fandom about Britney Spears.
He reached out to me because she wanted to record me for an episode she was doing about britney spears.
I have a lot to say about britney spears incidentally not attracted to britney spears though, but he was attracted to jasmine, so did you ask jasmine out?
What i remember is that you dm'd me on instagram.
You asked me if I wanted to get lunch with you or something, or like meet up.
And I said, yes.
I do not remember that.
We went to a Mexican restaurant.
So like, were you thinking at any point in getting to know Jasmine, like maybe I could Yeah.
I mean, yes.
Was I thinking about it on that level?
Yes.
But for the most part, I go into everything telling myself nothing is going to happen.
I am just going to get lunch with this person and talk to them about things we are interested in, and i'm gonna have a good time and i'm gonna go back to my apartment alone and if anything happens beyond that, then that's just an extra bonus.
I am a strong believer in not thinking about things too much, especially romantic things, because when you start thinking about things you become neurotic about it and that's when you start projecting on the things, like i know, when i'm attracted to somebody.
But i don't really think about it beyond that, mostly because if i am going to go out with somebody and there's nothing there, I want to at the very least have a good time talking to that person and spending time with them.
It generally just puts me in a better mindset, going into any date just telling myself it's not a date.
Jasmine, do you remember any conversation that the two of you had?
What were your intentions?
Well okay, this was at a period of my life when i was bisexual and dating a bunch of people at once, and so i remember when jordan, you reached out to me, i immediately clocked that this was going to be a date not necessarily a date date, but like i could tell that you were interested in me that way.
And when we went to talk And I was getting drunk
I think I had like four margaritas.
Yeah.
I was drunk.
You were drunk.
And it quickly devolved into talking about Archie Comics.
And I do remember you asking me, so do you want to hang out somewhere?
And I was like, I don't remember this.
That sounds like a great move on my part.
I mean, apparently it worked.
So it worked.
No, it worked.
Like the reality is, is I was like, yeah, sure.
Come back to my place.
I live around a corner.
And so we went back to my place and we did stuff afterwards.
You left.
And I remember like consciously telling you, don't fall in love with me.
I'm so chaotic right now.
I don't know what I'm doing.
And you were like, cool, that's fine.
And I remember being really surprised by that, that you would be so okay with me immediately putting brakes on something.
Because you seemed so excited and so into me.
And like we were we were both vibing with each other.
And then being really afraid of trying to put brakes on it because I was so conflicted about myself at that time.
By the way, I've never had the like.
I want at one point in my life to look at someone and say don't fall in love with me.
No, I look back at that.
I still have it screenshot because I remember thinking what a jackass I was.
Jasmine wasn't trying to be cocky here.
She was really saying to Jordan I know we've hit it off, but I'm also not a great person to date right now, because I'm really figuring myself out.
I knew I knew it was like this could be something that could lead to love.
Like it really did feel like.
We were and we still do this, even when we like we get really excited and like we get like super stoked about it.
And that's like a love language, I think, for both of us.
What happens next?
I think you left town for something and came back with like a four year relationship.
Jasmine did return from a trip, got a girlfriend and reconnected with Jordan as a friend.
I was expecting you to be extremely butthurt.
Yeah.
When I told you don't fall in love with me, you were like, this happens to me.
Like, I'm not surprised by this.
Yeah.
You were like you're one of a couple of people that I've developed a crush on that then turns out to be gay.
Yeah, something that has happened a lot.
I will have a limited thing with somebody and then, like two or three years later, they transition.
That's happened a handful of times.
The most frequent one is i am at a party and i see somebody.
I'm like this woman is so hot and they're a lesbian.
It just i always find like the prettiest butch lesbian at a party and i'm like i'm in love with her, we're getting married, and then somebody immediately is like gay.
That person is clearly gay and then like versions in the middle of it are like a handful of times i have like gone out with somebody and then the relationship immediately after us going out one or two times is like their first relationship after from being bisexual to just I'm gay and I have no interest in dating men.
You know, like the Grim Reaper of heterosexuality.
But can I spin this positive?
I show up to dates wearing a plague mask.
I want to spin this positive and say that like you seem wonderful and like you'd be a really great date.
So i feel like it's more wow if i don't want to date this guy because i really want to sleep with that lady.
I probably don't even want to Like I'm seeing it as not like you're the Grim Reaper, but if I can't make this work and this is so fun and great and charming and we're having this magnetic back and forth, I think I'm just gay.
Like that's what I would think.
If not with you, gay.
That's my positive spin.
I will co-sign, though, and say as somebody who has gone out with you is.
It's closer to Meredith's reading for me.
It was very much a feeling of you are so cool.
I want to spend time with you.
You are attractive.
Why am I still thinking about dating a woman that has no interest in me when here's a very attractive guy who I get along with very well?
Yeah, I have thought about this, even though I try not to only because it's honestly like none of my business.
What's going on on the other side of that?
And if people want me to know, they can tell me.
But what I have always assumed it was is on my end.
I have structurally set myself up to go on dates with people who are just barely interested in going out on dates.
That's interesting.
If i am going out with people who are matching the mentality i have when i'm going into a date, which is i am actively trying to hope for and assume nothing Structurally, who I am not likely to go on a date with with that mentality is a straight woman who wants a relationship.
True.
You're matching energy.
And that energy is on both sides pretty indifferent for different reasons.
Preparing for this episode has made me think a lot about whether I have a type.
And I do have like a physical type which is probably boys.
I didn't think would date me when I was young.
Like I like a guy who looks like a older person who was in a boy band.
They're adults and they can have a beard and all sorts of things, but they were cute.
And also I like Lego faces where the jaw is very square.
This is physical.
Two types for personality.
Maybe, like when I was younger, there was a lot more of like, an interest in like brooding and brooding.
You'll never understand me.
Oh no, you understand me, but nobody else understands me.
So you really like the Robert Pattinson Batman movie?
Okay.
First of all, how dare you?
Second of all, yes.
And Twilight, right?
So to me, it's like, it's all the same vampire.
It's all the same problem.
But then you get older.
But you do hit a point where you're like, oh, that could be exhausting.
I also like a dude with the Lego face who is working hard.
Like, like I was telling Jasmine, like the Kingsman movie, that actor, like he's rappelling off a building.
He's being a spy.
I like a spy.
I like it.
So there's that, too.
But you grow up into a point where you're like some of these people I like are like personas versus people.
And the thing that their persona tells me right of like.
Maybe they're quick-witted.
Maybe they care about their jobs and the role that they're playing.
I'm starting to see that, even if the people I truly want to be with don't, even if they don't match the type they do based on the narrative I placed on that type,
Lego faces aside, what Jordan said just before all that is my takeaway of this episode.
Jordan said that what he's actually been doing is going out with people who match his mentality when it comes to dating.
And remember, he said he goes into dating actively trying to hope for and assume nothing.
For almost forever, Jordan has gone into dating with no goals, like with Jasmine.
He was just happy to be at lunch, shooting a shot.
He wasn't really thinking, what if, or I hope this becomes something more.
Which is why I don't think it's his greater type that has given him similar experiences over and over.
I don't even think his type is a problem.
If he hasn't met a partner, it's because he's been seeking women who aren't really looking for much either.
Like I said at the start of the episode, A type can be a first step in a walk towards someone you could really love.
And yes, for some people, types are too rigid.
For instance, if you're only open to dating men over 6'4", cast a wider net.
But if you like what you like, that's okay.
If you're looking for a certain kind of vibe, that is cool.
If it's not working for you though, perhaps it's time to look inward, because I'll say, when I liked a type that seemed out of reach, I now realize it was because I didn't want to be dating, and what an easy way to avoid it.
Truly the best way to avoid dating is to be into Robert Pattinson.
What's interesting is that at the end of Jordan's interview, He told me his priorities were changing.
He said he wants kids.
That means he has new intentions.
And that might mean his type will shift a bit and get him what he now wants.
Because I do believe there are Janine Garofalo types who might want Jordan and want kids with Jordan.
And some of the non-Janine types might appeal to him more now because he'll be attracted to the parts that match where he is now.
If somebody who may be 10 years younger was saying wow, I keep going after the same person over and over and there are similarities here and it's not working.
This type is not working.
However, I define this type.
What would you say to them for advice?
Oh, obviously you need to reflect on if you were doing something repeatedly that doesn't work.
You need to figure out what it would mean if it did work.
Like what you were saying before about what your type is is like the type of guy you felt wasn't attracted to you when you were younger.
If It worked.
It would mean this type of guy is now attracted to you.
Yeah, what a bummer.
It also just I mean, I feel like it'd be a drag.
I want to see Batman, but I and I do want to date Batman, but probably not forever.
Certainly not Robert Pattinson as Batman like Michael Keaton.
Sure.
That's a lot more fun.
Yeah.
Or Val Kilmer.
Hell yeah.
Hell yeah.
I want to date Val Kilmer as Batman.
Yeah.
But I want to look at Robert Pattinson as Batman for a few hours.
That's such a good point.
I mean this other point you make of like not to make it too spiritual, but to realize that you sometimes are looking for a mirror and whether that mirror is Janine Garofalo or some woman who's about to tell you about her new girlfriend, like you are the Janine Garofalo inside of you.
Like you are your own Janine Garofalo.
One last note.
We did attempt to reach Janine Garofalo for this episode.
Her representatives say they love when people love Janine. but she did not want to participate.
To that I say, Janine, we're here, should you want us.
We won't try too hard.
It's just that, you know, yeah, you can send us a voice memo.
If you want, no big deal.
We're just really into you.
Love Letters is a production of the Boston Globe.
This episode was produced by Brunette, glasses wearing, sardonic, Janine type, Jasmine Aguilera.
Story edit by Veronica Chow.
Sound design by Jasmine Aguilera.
Special thanks to Linda Henry and Brian McGorry.
Remember, Love Letters is also an advice column and we love your questions about relationships.
Send any questions about dating friendships marriage singlehood, your type, whatever to loveletters at bostoncom.
And if you like the show, please leave us a review on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen.
All I remember from that is that I got really drunk.
Yeah, you were at work.
You were at work.
At work, okay.
Don't make me sound unprofessional.
I'm Meredith Goldstein.
Thanks for listening.
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