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Being fat is a stupid reason to hate yourself.
I'm sorry. It is. Ever since she was very young, Courtney Hommeister has had a mean voice in her head, telling her she's the wrong size.
I think I just thought I looked ugly.
You don't look like the people in the magazines.
You don't look like the mannequins.
You don't look like your friends.
That is ugly. Courtney's insecurities made dating hard for her.
But then she finally started seeing a guy who made her feel differently.
Generally, when I'm around men, I'm hyper aware of my body.
When I was around Jason, I was just myself.
And when we were alone together, it was perfect and lovely.
But when we were out in public, that was where I ran into trouble.
From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
Each week, we bring you stories and conversations inspired by the Modern Love column.
We talk all about love, sex, and the messiness of relationships.
And today's story is definitely a messy one.
It's adapted from an essay Courtney wrote in 2023 called, Were We the Fat Couple?
It's a question Courtney didn't want to be asking.
But once she got it in her head, she couldn't let it go.
Courtney Hammeister, welcome to Modern Love.
Thank you so much. Throughout our conversation, I'm going to be asking you questions about your body, which, to be totally honest, I feel like could sound kind of intrusive.
So before we get into it, I just want to ask about the language you want to use.
In the Modern Love essay you wrote, you use the word fat to describe yourself.
Do you prefer that I use the word fat or a different word?
I just want to make sure.
You know, a friend of mine wrote me after this essay was published, and she said, You shouldn't call yourself fat.
You know, don't do that.
That's negative self talk.
Fat is a descriptor.
Fat is not an insult.
It is used to describe we have additional adipose tissue in our body, and that means that we are fat people.
And it is our culture's view of what fat is that turns it into a derogatory term.
Are there certain words that are more comfortable than others for you?
It sounds like you are comfortable with the word fat.
Well, that's such an interesting thing.
I'm comfortable with the word fat.
I am not comfortable being fat.
If you're a fat person and you're walking down the aisle of an airplane, you just know every single person is thinking, please God, don't let them sit next to me.
You know, that doesn't feel great.
My internalized fat phobia is so powerful that even after all of the reading that I've done and the extraordinary writers and activists who have talked about the horrible history of fat phobia, all of that doesn't matter when I look at myself in the mirror and I tell myself I'm disgusting.
Do you remember the first time you started assessing the size of your body?
I think that it was when I started getting bigger than my mother.
My mother is beautiful and tiny.
My mother probably weighs a hundred pounds.
She's about five feet.
And I think that when I was around 10, I started to get bigger than her.
So I'm in middle school and suddenly I'm a size 12.
You know, she's like a size two.
I think it didn't get really bad until I gained a pretty significant amount of weight right before college.
You know, we talk about the difference between being overweight and obese and there is this point at which you stop being kind of a heavier person and you turn into like that's a fat person.
There was a point at which I stopped shopping with other people because when you're a heavy person, you just can't.
I don't want to stand in their stores and look around at all the things that I can never wear that don't look like a floral couch.
And I don't want to drag them to my store where nothing fits them.
When did you start to think about dating?
How did your feelings about your body play into that?
I didn't. I didn't start to think about dating.
I mean, I dated in high school and I was still a, quote unquote, normal size.
Once I got to over 200 pounds, that's where I just thought I don't want anyone touching my body.
I don't want to be naked in front of anyone.
So it's just really not a thought for me.
I mean, I wasn't in my first real adult relationship until I was 34 years old and I had gone on a diet.
And so I felt like I looked like I could get a boyfriend.
Wow. I mean, so it sounds like you felt like you had to be a certain weight to be datable.
Is that, does that track?
Yes. In your essay, you mentioned that men, when you started dating, triggered your body shame.
Can you give me an example of a time that that happened for you?
Yeah. I mean, this one is kind of subtle, but I had this boyfriend that I used to drive around a lot.
And so he was in the passenger seat and I was wearing these jeans.
And as always happens, when you sit down, when anyone sits down, your thighs get splayed out.
And he looked over at me and he looked down at my thigh and he just poked my thigh.
And then he just looked up at me and he kind of grinned and he tipped his head just a little bit to essentially say like, you're gonna take care of that, right?
Like it was very much like a, you know, that kind of taking in of the breath.
I mean, how did you react in that moment?
Were you like, hey, do not do that?
No, I wish that I could tell you that I had some fantastic comeback for him.
I mean, I thought it was valid at the time, right?
Right. That I hadn't worked hard enough to try to get the pounds off.
So it was like, well, he's right.
My thighs are a little bit bigger than when we first started dating.
Certainly, like the initial feeling is the sense of defensiveness and kind of how dare you, but it's overridden by I want to keep this person with me.
It's not healthy in any way.
It's, I'm not saying in any way it was healthy.
And you put you also have to remember, this was my first adult boyfriend at 34 years old.
Okay. I want to jump ahead, uh, about a decade to when you're 43 and you start seeing someone who makes you feel very different.
This guy named Jason, I know you guys had worked together.
You were friends. When did, you know, the friendly feelings turn into butterflies.
I mean, for me, it was when he, Jason is, um, a wonderful baker.
He bakes these amazing brown butter chocolate chip cookies, but he hates bananas.
He's like, he's like terrified of bananas and black beans.
And he made this banana cream pie with, but he's afraid of bananas.
I know that's what was so amazing about it.
He touched multiple bananas for me.
It was beyond. If that's not romantic, I don't know what is he touched and smelled bananas for you.
I know exactly. That's what did it for me.
So when you got the pie, were you like, okay, you're my boyfriend now?
I mean, of course I'm not an idiot.
But I mean, besides, you know, his obvious bravery with bananas, like what else drew you to Jason?
What other qualities did he have?
I mean, Jason has one of the biggest hearts of anyone that I know.
I mean, he's just one of the funniest people that I know.
He's one of the smartest people that I know.
And I think that Jason truly cared for me and he had this sort of.
He had this sort of odd adoration for me at the time.
Why odd? Sometimes we would be watching a movie or something and he would just reach over and he would just place his hand on my face.
Oh my God, Courtney.
Wait, wait. Can I just pause us and think about the way that the guy in the car poked your thigh?
Yes. And then this tender gesture, this hand on your face.
Yeah. My gosh, like what a difference.
It sounds quite liberatory.
It was. I mean, I talked about in the essay what a huge part of it was that he was fat.
Like he was fat like me.
And in fact, you know, Jason was in a bigger body than I was.
Like if you're talking about sort of categories when we were alone together, we were essentially just two fat people hanging out together.
And so I had no shame around my body, but it was the combination of his love for me and his caring where I could just be myself and unapologetically just be.
Yeah. That's exactly what you're looking for.
Who can I just be with?
Not mask, not hide anything.
And I think that had we never left the house, it might have worked for a long time, you know?
Yeah. I mean, it might have worked for a long time in private, you're saying, but when you're out in public, it's a different story.
That's the thing. I had had a few comments made to me on the street when I lived in New York that were not fun to hear.
But when you're a fat person and you're doing anything connected to food, unless you have a great self image, you tend to think about what people are thinking, right?
So I would think, oh, we'll walk into this restaurant and people will think like, I hope they leave something for us.
Or, you know, the grocery store was a big one where it was just like, I just, I don't want people like looking at our carts and judging us or the person who's checking us out, like judging us.
Can I ask you, would you feel this way when you went, for example, to a grocery store on your own, or was there something different about walking in with him?
I want to understand that.
There absolutely was something different about walking in with him because suddenly it's like, oh, there's a systemic problem in these people's house.
Like, like their family is problematic.
And also, I mean, it's just doubled.
Honestly, I do have some body shame when I'm in a grocery store, but it just felt like it doubled when I was with a second person.
For me, the biggest one and the hardest one was walking into a party with our friends where I was just, I was like, I don't want to be the fat couple.
It's not a moral failing being a fat person, but it's what I thought at the time.
It sounds so lonely to walk into a party of your friends, you know, with your boyfriend and imagine that they're thinking that about the two of you.
I wouldn't say that I felt lonely because I was with Jason and I was with my friends.
What I will say is that it sucks the joy out of any situation.
Having that internalized fat phobia, you can be at your wedding, you can be on the happiest day of your life, and then somebody snaps a picture and you're thinking, I don't want to see that picture.
We are disrespecting the most joyful moments of our lives.
It's terrible. How did you cope with all of these feelings?
Were you talking to Jason about everything that was going on in your head?
No, no. That's the thing.
I didn't talk to him about it until I broke up with them.
When we come back, a breakup Courtney says she's really not proud of.
And then we get to hear from Jason himself.
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Okay, so Courtney, this breakup really starts with you trying on a pair of jeans.
Can you tell me about that?
Yeah. So before I started dating Jason, I had lost some weight.
I'd lost I think about like 20 pounds.
Well, that's interesting also Courtney because we talked about how you felt like you needed to be a certain weight to be datable.
And if you lost weight before you met him, yeah, that's interesting.
It is actually. And I hadn't ever really thought about it, but you know, clearly I had some threshold that it was like, okay, this body's boyfriend worthy.
Interesting. Yeah. Interesting is a lovely kind word to use to describe that.
Fucked up is I would use fucked up, but you know what you do you and I think I can't say that like my boss would get mad.
I'm not actually sure, but yes, I will say what she said what you said.
Yes. But so I had, I'd, I'd, I'd lost a little bit of weight.
And so I had this pair of jeans that I had gotten when I lost the weight, but I kind of sensed that I maybe, you know, how sometimes you just kind of sense that you might have gained a little bit of weight.
And so I thought, why don't I just try those jeans on and see if they still fit the same.
And so I pulled them on and just, I was able to zip them, but I wasn't able to button them.
And I was just barely able to zip them.
I mean, it was a feat of engineering.
How did you feel a sense of dread that I was on this other track.
And now I'm back on this upward track that I can't get off of just the oncoming train of weight gain that you cannot fight a powerless feeling.
Yes, absolutely. And so I was like, well, I'm going to weigh myself and see how bad it is because if I that's the thing too, I always want to know how bad is it.
So I weighed myself and I had gained back 15 pounds.
And so part of me was thinking, oh, it's the comfort of being with Jason.
Like we would just order whatever food we wanted.
We'd watch movies like it's the comfort of being with him.
This happens all the time to couples, right?
You get happy and you gain weight.
Totally. What's it called?
Happy weight or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just immediately panicked and was like, I can't, I can't, I just can't do this anymore.
And I think that in combination with my sort of shame when we went out in public together was what made me text him.
What did you text him?
I just texted him that we had to talk.
So what happened when he came over for this talk?
I let him into the apartment and I, and I sat down on my couch and I was expecting him to sit down with me and he was wearing his coat and he was holding his keys and he just walked and he stood on the other side of the coffee table and he just wouldn't sit down with me.
And he just stood there holding his keys in his hands and he said, what's going on?
So I think that I pretty much immediately just went into it and said, I just, I'm really sorry, but I just don't think I can do this anymore.
And Jason's a very straightforward person, you know, and he just kind of did that thing where I kind of shook his head quickly and he's like, why?
Like what, what is going on?
And I think that I said it really bluntly.
I just said, I, I've gained 15 pounds since we started dating.
And he's like, I've, I've gained more than that.
Who cares? And I think that's when I said, I just don't think that I can be that fat couple among our friends.
What does his face do when you said those words?
He just, all he's, all he said was, I would never be anything but proud to walk into a room with you.
He could have just said, you're not being a good person right now.
And he could have said, that's not something that you should say to another human being.
Right. You know, that line is saying at the same time, I love you.
Yeah. And you're not being a good person right now.
It's a really beautiful way to say it.
What did you respond or, or?
I'm pretty sure that's when he just walked out.
It sounds like, you know, it was all kind of spur of the moment.
You text him, you say this thing, like, and then it's silence, right?
It's like you alone with your thoughts.
Yeah. What were those thoughts?
I mean, I think that in situations like that, if you're not a sociopath, you just wish that you were a different, better person.
Did you imagine what was going through Jason's head or what he was experiencing?
Definitely. I mean, I think that I was thinking about that more than anything else, what I had done to him.
But a couple days later, I think it was just a couple days later, he texted me and the text just said, so I guess we're just friends then you and me.
And to me that says, I'm giving you a pass on this one.
You've got to do over on our friendship.
Do not take it lightly.
God, he's good, isn't he?
He's really good. And it was such a relief.
It was a combination of relief and surprise.
Yeah. Because I could never be that forgiving.
I mean, obviously, I'm a dick.
I couldn't even relate to that kind of forgiveness and especially that kind of immediate forgiveness.
And I didn't understand it.
And I will never completely understand it.
And then after this, we just sort of went immediately back into being friends again.
And we worked together and we would have dinner every Monday night with my mother.
And I then ended up officiating his wedding to his beautiful wife, Jessica, whom he adores.
It's amazing, Courtney.
I mean, from, I don't know the kind of depths of this breakup to officiating his wedding really, I mean, it's a testament to the two of you and your friendship and how strong it is.
It's very remarkable.
Yeah, it's definitely it's definitely the most interesting relationship I have in my life, I would say, you know, for sure.
It's the most layered, complex friendship that I have, I think.
Hmm. You know, I wonder if after everything you went through with Jason, did you take lessons from that relationship into future relationships?
Um, can I say no? I mean, I have to say, this is the battle of my life.
And I know for a lot of people, like, really, oh, I'm so sorry, you have a weight problem, but it is, it is the battle of my life to try to figure out a way to love myself in my body.
And I think that the battle isn't with my weight.
The battle is with my brain and with recognizing that my body has nothing to do with my worth as a person, that I don't need to lose weight to be a good person.
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like this is still very much ongoing for you, which I think is extremely real.
You're still fighting this battle.
Do you feel like you've made any progress, though?
Like, has the way you talk to yourself changed in any way?
It has, it has. If I find myself saying something horrifying to myself now, I apologize to myself, and I don't find myself saying horrifying things as often.
And in my old house, I had this giant mirror.
And so it made it harder, like when I would get out of the shower and stuff, I used to call myself disgusting.
And so I took an erasable marker.
And I just stood there, you know, where I would stand in the mirror.
And I drew a little jaunty cap on myself.
And I had a little arrow.
I pointed a little arrow to myself and said, not disgusting, exclamation point.
So I feel like I've really made strides is what I'm trying to say.
That is amazing. Courtney, a jaunty little cap.
Are you kidding me?
I'm gonna have to try that myself.
I'm so happy to hear that.
I'm actually going to talk to Jason in a few days.
Is there anything you think I should ask him?
Anything that you should ask him?
Well, I mean, I definitely think the question of how the hell did you forgive her so quickly?
And why be great if he could answer that?
Yeah, I will definitely ask him that.
Courtney, thank you so much for this conversation.
It was so it was so open hearted and I feel very grateful.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
It was a pleasure. We'll be right back with Jason's side of the story.
Okay, I can't believe that I am actually meeting the Jason Rouse after hearing so much about you.
Jason, welcome to Modern Love.
Hi, I'm happy to be here.
Good to see you. I just had a conversation with Courtney Hommeister all about her Modern Love essay where you, of course, are a main character.
Courtney told us your love story and your breakup story.
So, let me just ask before we dive into it.
Like, how weird is it to have someone write about your breakup for like millions of people across the world to read?
Tell me about that experience.
You're not the first person to bring that up.
I had known that she had written this piece for a long time and I truly sort of, I was fine with it and I had sort of forgotten about it.
And when she gave it to me to read, it was just printed on paper and I read it and it was pretty well written as I wasn't surprised that it would be.
And just felt very proud of her and really happy for her.
And when it came out, my wife and I sort of woke up to a bazillion messages and it's just this thing that really, I think, resonated with people.
And that was kind of great, you know?
It was kind of great.
Strange, I still feel a step removed at times.
When I talked to Courtney, I heard her side of the breakup with you.
But what do you remember about that day?
Yeah, I was at a movie theater and coming out and I got the text.
She's like, because she always wanted to talk about something.
But I drove over there and I remember, which when I walked in, I just sort of stood there and she was sitting and her posture and the sort of the tone of the room was not friendly.
And she said that she had been feeling good for some time, that she didn't like being seen as a fat couple.
And I think I don't know if I said it out loud, but I'm like, I don't think that's what we are.
And I just said, okay, okay.
And I just let her talk and get it out.
And I didn't know, I felt, is she trying to hurt my feelings?
I remember thinking that.
And then it became clear that she was in a period of deep self -loathing.
It's the only time I felt she let me down because I felt that this was just a lame cop out and that I don't know.
But I remember just being really kind of surprised, but also I felt it had nothing to do with me and just her and her marvelous brain.
I really admire that you were able to be like, it's not about me.
In fact, it reminds me of this line that Courtney writes about in her essay that we spoke about in our conversation.
She says she doesn't want to be the fat couple around your friends.
And you respond by saying, I would never be anything but proud to walk into a room with you, which Jason, what a beautiful and really devastating thing to say, my gosh.
It was the truth. And that's, I think, how it ended.
And I took off and I'm not one of these people who's like, I'm going to change their mind.
You know what I mean?
I'm going to work on it.
I don't take no for an answer.
I'm like, okay. And that's where I was.
I was really not sunk by her statement.
You know, it didn't sink me.
I wasn't affected by that.
I was affected that this person who I really cared about deeply didn't want to be with me.
And that hurt and it was disappointing.
It was a tough afternoon.
And then I remember the next day I just, I felt better because I knew so clearly what this was, you know, like in some way by hook or by crook, our relationship transcended some of these things, you know?
You know, when we talked to Courtney, she mentioned like feeling absolutely awful after she broke up with you and the couple, like maybe one, two days afterwards, she got this text from you.
And it said, I guess we're friends now, you and me.
And she said that she still doesn't understand why you forgave her.
And I guess, like, what would you say to her?
Like, what would you want her to know?
There was nothing to forgive.
It had nothing to do with me.
It was all her. She made a decision for herself and there was nothing to, like, she needed to forgive herself.
And I knew that I was going to call her the next day and I was going to see her because, you know, I have no problems with Courtney at any size.
And I love every part of this asshole.
Like, she's, she's so spectacular, you know?
I wonder how your brief, I guess, romantic relationship and your much, much longer friendship with Courtney.
How has that changed you?
I was always used to think people would ask Courtney, for instance, Courtney a question, and she could give you a very definitive answer.
And I didn't feel that I could do that on any subject.
And I feel like I have that now.
And I feel like I think that when she broke up with me and I said what I said, that was the first time as an adult that I had truly been authentically like myself and said something of purpose.
And it's why I think I felt so at peace with it, you know?
And it was because she was the person that she is.
She made you more confident, it sounds like.
Absolutely. I mean, to, yeah, she's a powerhouse.
And she's important.
And I'm so proud that we're friends, that I get to see her, that I can call her whenever I want.
And she'll answer the phone.
She's just, she's essential.
She's just fucking essential.
Jason Rouse, thank you so much for this conversation, truly.
I really appreciate it.
I appreciate you talking to me.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
If you want to read Courtney's Modern Love essay, look for the link in our show notes.
And before you go, there is just one more thing I want to tell you before we head to the credits.
This year marks the 20th anniversary of the Modern Love column.
And if you're a reader or a listener, we want to know how the column has affected you.
Has it made a difference in how you think about love in your own life?
If it has, please leave us a message on our Modern Love hotline at 212 -589 -8962.
That's 212 -589 -8962.
Include your name and a number where we can call you back, and you just might hear yourself on a future episode of the show.
Modern Love is produced by Reva Goldberg, Davis Land, Emily Lang, and Amy Pearl.
It's edited by Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg, Davis Land, and our executive producer, Jen Poiant.
Production management by Christina Joseph.
The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell.
Original music by Alicia Baiteb, Sonia Herrera, Mary Lozano, Dan Powell, and Rowan Nimisto.
This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez.
Studio support from Matti Masiello and Nick Pitman.
Digital production by Mihima Jablani and Mel Golokhli.
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.
