My mom and I have gone through many phases over the last 10 years.
And there's this cycle that typically goes, everything's kind of fine.
She's doing things or saying things that make me feel uncomfortable or upset, but I'm, you know, dealing with them on my own.
I'm not expressing it.
And then At some point, it all becomes too much and it all comes out.
So I say how I feel.
That makes her angry.
We don't talk for a while.
Then we have some sort of resolution conversation in which I feel cautiously optimistic that a different kind of relationship is possible.
Then we kind of rinse and repeat.
And so when I first reached out, we were kind of at the beginning of that cycle again.
We'd had one of those blowout conversations and I was just feeling and still am feeling like there's got to be something else to try, because I really feel like I'm just running into the same wall over and over again.
Now I would say my mom and I are kind of back in a peaceful place where we're speaking, but I still feel quite guarded.
And so I guess my central question, is there another way to do this?
Is there another way that I can interact with her and rebuild this relationship that doesn't leave me feeling either like I'm putting myself in an emotionally unsafe position or I'm ignoring my true feelings of hurt.
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Megan Rapinoe here.
This week on A Touch More.
We're bringing you our live show in Phoenix with WNBA four-time champion Chelsea Gray and the Naismith Coach of the Year, Shea Ralph.
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At this moment, what I mainly know is my mom and I get into knots.
I get stuck.
I don't know what I need to do in order to accommodate her without feeling that then I abandon myself or I stay close to my truth.
And then I feel like I can't connect with her.
And I love the rinse and repeat image because what you're admitting is I'm stuck.
I realize this isn't the way to go about it.
I would like to find a different route.
And I'm ready to take the risk because you've reached out twice.
So I see that as an invitation to see a whole different way to go about this.
But I do need to hear a little more from you and to get a little bit more color.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I grew up in a very loving nuclear family of two moms, me and my brother.
And my parents had a very close relationship and our family had a close relationship.
And their relationship and marriage was was really central to our family identity because they were two women and they were two women having a family in the 90s and
They didn't have the legal recognition and protection.
And so they really went out of their way as they had to and as they chose to, to be incredibly intentional and devoted to that.
And they were together before they had the two of you.
Yes, they had been together for a while, maybe years.
Over 10 years, I think.
And the age-born child?
Yes.
And the one that you're having detention with?
She is my non-biological mother.
When I was 19, my parents split up.
And it was... not to be dramatic, but it really was devastating.
It really felt like it came completely out of nowhere.
It just felt so confusing and shattering.
And for the first few weeks, I wasn't at home during this time, but Over the phone I kept asking what, what happened?
This doesn't make sense.
This like this doesn't add up to me.
And they didn't want to tell me and they didn't want to tell me and they didn't want to tell me.
And then finally, my mother told me that she'd had an affair.
And they tried for a while to repair the relationship.
And this was 10 years ago now.
They ended up getting divorced a few years after they separated.
And they both have new partners.
And It was very hard for me at the beginning of that and it continued to be hard and I continue to have complex emotions about it.
But overwhelmingly, I'm at a place with my other mom, definitely.
And kind of with the scenario really of peace where so many wonderful things have come since then.
My other mother's new partner, who I absolutely resented so intensely, and God bless him for...
His patience with me is now an incredibly important person in my life.
And what remains is this incredibly difficult relationship with the mother who had the affair.
Is that a piece of the story?
Is the fact that she had an affair... the fact that the relationship dissolved?
So it's a piece of the story, because the central conflict that kind of underlies all of our issues It's her refusal to take any responsibility for her own role in what happened.
So in her mind, she didn't do anything wrong.
You know, this all happened to her.
And in her mind, she does not have any responsibility in that.
And at the time, I felt very much like all of the responsibility is hers.
And now I have much more nuance than that.
And I recognize that it never is as simple as that.
And I don't completely blame her at all.
But she won't recognize her own actions and how they've affected me.
And it just always comes back to that for me, where she wants me to feel bad for her and feel the sorrow that she's lost her family.
And I am just like, I just can't, I can't go there with her.
Give me a few lines just so I can hear the script.
It goes something like, I feel really hurt by everything that happened.
And I feel as if you've never acknowledged those feelings and how your actions affected me.
And she'll say, well, I was hurt too.
I lost my family too.
And I'll say, yes, I understand that.
But I didn't have any say in it.
I was the kid in this scenario and you were the adult.
And it goes kind of back and forth on that, where she says well, You don't have the right to be so upset at me.
I didn't do anything.
These things happen.
And she and my other mother don't really have a relationship because my other mother was also found it difficult to move on without her acknowledging her responsibility.
And so she chose to walk away.
And it's difficult because the jealousy that comes from my mother, who I have a jealous of my relationship with my other mom, she's she's very stuck in this like.
So let me ask you something these traits of defensiveness, lack of accountability, justification of one's actions, Is that the first time that she acted this way?
Or this is the woman you've actually always known, that now applied it to another set of circumstances.
What's the history between the two of you?
When you're upset, when you're mad, when you're frustrated, when you want to make a comment, are your feelings at all allowed recognized, if they counter hers?
You were 19, right?
So there was 19 years of history before that.
Yeah.
When it happened and... it felt very much like a night and day shift.
It felt very much like, who is this person?
I don't recognize her.
With more time and hindsight, some of it tracks more.
And I'm able to see ways in which my other mom balanced her out and she wasn't as intense.
But there were a few times there definitely were when her emotions trumped all else and it was like she had blinders on.
And when you talk about it with your other mom, what does she say?
She wishes it weren't so difficult for me.
She understands what I'm feeling because she's felt it.
And she's set a firm boundary of protecting herself.
And she's very supportive of me.
Around my relationship with my other mom.
She's always offering to have less time with me so that my other mom can have more time with me, which is just frustrating because that's not what I want.
And, you know, it's it's sweet, but.
But it makes you want to have more time with her.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What would you want?
Do you want her to recognize more of your experience, or you want a different way of dealing with her?
It's not the same, right?
It's not the same.
And I'm thinking about how she's not completely unaware to my emotions and my feelings, and i think she is sympathetic in her way, like have you ever had a chance of simply asking her is it difficult for you to recognize that this was a real painful experience for me?
And that doesn't mean that it wasn't painful for you too.
But is it difficult for you because you feel like you contributed to my pain or because you think that when I say that, I don't recognize yours?
I'm just curious.
We've had many conversations that are in that vein.
Mm-hmm.
It's usually much more emotionally charged because well, I'm much more emotionally charged because I've let myself get to a point where I have all this pent up feeling of feeling as if I'm putting my own desires and comfort and beliefs on hold so that we can be civil, and She gets very defensive.
Have you ever had the opportunity of asking her just about her own experience without inserting yours?
Just kind of tell me, you know, tell me the story as you see it.
I haven't and it's hard to imagine that.
Mm-hmm.
And maybe this is the place where I'm stuck and it's the part that I have to let go of.
But hearing you say that I want to say but she's like, why should I give her more grace and love room to share her story?
All we've been talking about is her story and her pain.
That is true.
This is not going to be about how you make her recognize you more.
This is going to be about how you deal with her differently.
And I have a feeling that some of the things I'm going to say are going to twist your stomach.
Because we have to go, we don't have to, but because I'm imagining loosening the grip.
Because you keep coming back to receive something that you don't get.
And that makes you come back for more that you don't get.
And then you're stuck between do I give in or do I hold on, as if there's only two options.
And I'm thinking, when you ask her that question, you just kind of say okay, can I listen for 10 minutes to her.
Without instantly feeling that I'm sacrificing myself and compromising my own integrity.
And just simply be curious.
Without thinking, why shall I give her when she gives me nothing?
I give her because I'm curious because I want to actually figure this out.
That's my only reason.
And because I don't feel that what I do works.
I don't know what I want to do instead.
But one thing I know is that what I do is not working.
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Did I read correctly that you are getting married?
Yes.
So this is an interesting moment to be having this conversation, right?
Because part of it is going to be how much do I want her involved and how close can she come to me, etc.
Here's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to think out loud a few questions.
And you can, with your finger, tell me up or down, or you can tell me two or five.
Five means better than two.
And we're going to just play a little game.
Some of this is often paradoxical, just so we are clear.
It's not meant to be taken at a literal level.
One option is exactly this.
You know, I noticed that many times you've been trying to tell me how hard this was for you.
And unfortunately it's as if you're saying it only when I come to try to tell you.
But I'd love to hear.
And then you sit down, you take a pen.
You take a piece of paper and you write it down so that you don't have to react.
And you just say, let me see how this woman puts her story together.
Option two is there's something you've been trying to tell me.
And we seem to always circle back and know at the same bone curious.
Now, every time you say i'm curious, you're going to have to fight.
Why do i have to be curious?
And why should she not be curious?
Why me?
Simply because you're trying to differentiate yourself from her, because you don't like what you're doing and you're doing it for yourself.
You're not doing it because you think it makes life easier on her and it gives her a pass.
Version three I see no fingers yet.
Oh, that's good.
Other line is you know, when I tell you how difficult this was for me, I really am not trying to tell you that you wronged me.
I'm actually seeking to connect with you.
And somehow that's not coming across.
I'm coming to get closer to you.
In your mind, that getting closer includes you recognizing me.
But basically, I'm not coming just to vent.
I'm coming because I'm trying to repair something.
Have you noticed that?
Thank you.
Three up.
But I need to grade them too.
They're not all at the same quality level.
That one sparked the most discomfort in me, which I think means that it's maybe the best one.
Because I turned it upside down, you see.
Because, you see, if I go to tell her how hurt I was and how shocked I was, it's as if I'm coming to attack her.
But in fact...
If I want her to recognize my pain, I'm actually coming to seek a connection.
Yeah.
And that feels very true to me.
Yes.
Yeah.
So how do I tell her that?
And then you say, I really need you to not speak right now.
Because I want you to actually take in what I'm saying.
I think you experience me as coming to attack you and blame you.
But in fact I am coming because I want you to know what was going on with me, as a way to weave back the thread between you and I.
I am actually not coming to talk about you.
I'm coming to talk about me.
And if she tries to talk, you just say, just to me, the courtesy and stay with me.
I have more.
And then you say, I am 10 years later and I don't see things in the same way that I used to.
I bought into your story.
I bought into the beauty of this relationship.
And I really thought things were beautiful.
And maybe they even were.
I don't know what prompted you or what happened.
But I think what I need to hear from you is that what I believed in was real.
Especially as I get married myself.
It's very important for me to know that I didn't live in a lie, that the love story in which I grew up actually existed.
I actually do believe that.
Good.
Good.
That part I don't struggle with.
Then if you don't struggle with it, it may even be more of a reason why to bring it to her.
Because it gives her a different understanding of what you're coming to ask.
Now she may be very defensive, generally speaking, because it feels to her that one wrong thing means that the whole thing is wrong.
In which case usually we say there is a strategy, which is that we start with a bunch of positive things.
Now, sometimes that feels very difficult because it's like why do I have to rub this in sugar if all I want to say is a few things you know straight out of my mouth?
Because we talk in order for the other person to hear it.
To just get it out of our system, you can talk to anybody.
So what you know about her is she's maybe sensitive to criticism and she doesn't like not to do things well.
And she doesn't like the idea that her actions may have been hurtful to others.
And so I am clear, you can say, that hurting me was not the thing you intentionally meant to do.
I know that.
The whole point is that you hold her hand by the way while you're speaking, because there's plenty of research about how digging into conflict while actually having physical contact creates a bridge.
I would almost call it a transmission of oxytocin that allows two people who are at odds to actually become closer.
The other thing is also to say, and I know that you really did not mean to hurt me.
And that's why I can come and tell you how hurt I was.
Because if I thought you had been intentional, I wouldn't trust you.
And then you hold the hand.
You just said, I just want you to hold my hand as we go into this wedding.
I need to say a few things to you.
And if she speaks, you put your finger in front and you just very gently say wait a little bit longer.
I'm here to give to you.
I'm not here to scold you.
I'm not here to berate you.
I'm not here to score points with you.
The goal of this whole thing is not necessarily for her to acknowledge and to recognize.
It's actually for you to not need her to acknowledge it to the extent that you do in order to experience the legitimacy of what you're feeling.
I'm definitely open to trying that.
And I think in talking through it with you, it's helpful to hear back the way that I sound in well, why should I be the one?
And I've known that, but it's It's different to hear you say it and think about it, as I can choose to let go of that, and it doesn't change what happened.
Nor how I feel.
Nor how I feel.
About these issues.
I don't need her. yeah to see to acknowledge it to recognize it for me to know that is it's it's just it's my experience it's valid and i may have to live with the fact that there's a lot of things that are wonderful with her and there's a few places that are really stuck if i bring this up i'm rarely gonna get She just can't.
Yeah.
And I don't really want to be Moses and the rock.
And I'll bang and bang and hope that water will flow, because the water won't flow.
Yeah.
Not from that place.
Yeah.
Because it doesn't, even if I'm not... arguing with her or being confrontational i feel really confined and uncomfortable and like i like it's an uncomfortable shirt i want to take off do you get along with her new partner she's fine All right, that says it all.
She's fine, and I'm really glad that my mom has found someone.
It's made my life a lot easier.
Because?
Before?
Before, so much more of her energy was focused on the past and going back to that or resenting me moving on, maybe.
And so it felt like a lot more to hold off almost.
So let me ask you is there a community around your family of close friends?
Yes, and is there one of these close friends who you could identify as a liaison for what?
For transmitting some messages, maybe?
I mean, there definitely is someone, but I don't know how that would feel to her.
You would never send her as a messenger.
Okay.
You would simply one day have the opportunity to talk and to ask how did she experience this whole transition?
And then you will share some of how you've experienced the whole transition.
And then you will express some of your own longings about the wish that some of your own transition had been more acknowledged.
And you'll just deposit seats.
You don't say anything.
Yeah.
Well, I have had those conversations.
I have those people and I have had those conversations.
And did the information flow?
No, because...
I believe that they also know that that wouldn't be taken.
OK, so you're not alone.
So that helps you on some level.
That helps you even more, because then you know that it's less about how do I get in there and it's more about how do I resist the urge to knock at the door where this is not what I'm going to receive.
Yeah.
And in fact, this is about her.
And I see it because I talked to a number of her, of their friends, and I see that there's a bit of a consensus.
That some people are wonderful and there's a few areas where it's better not to reach out to them.
And then sometimes people say well, if I can't do that, then I shouldn't have a relationship at all.
But I don't hear that.
I think you may have had that at some phases.
But I don't feel that now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So then you know she can't.
She won't.
Not yet.
Not now.
And then when she reacts, it was very hard for me too.
Here's the answer.
Brace yourself.
I know that.
And I also know that you have often felt that there was not enough recognition for that toward you.
Yeah.
I know that you're telling it to me each time, because there is this belief that, since you're the one who left, you have nothing to complain about.
You did what you wanted.
Or you had the affair.
And you're saying it like someone who feels that nobody actually ever saw their pain.
Yeah.
Because all they saw was their action.
You cringing or it's okay?
No, no, it's okay.
It is.
I think you're right.
I think that is how she feels.
Yeah.
Anyone who would be in that position and say this, it's a fair guess.
Yeah.
It's not very scientific to guess that.
But it is the thing that most of the time people will not.
Of course that doesn't explain why she can't hear you.
We know there is more to the story.
But these kind of responses will be very surprising to her.
Yeah.
And sometimes, when people actually finally feel that someone sees them their story it's remarkable how they're accidentally able to see someone else's.
Yeah, because instead of pulling on the rope me too, me first, why not me, why you?
But if actually you come all the way to the other side.
Yeah, It's funny that you say this because it's a concept I'm familiar with and it's one that my fiancé and I call it the Chinese finger trap.
Explain it to me.
Do you know about those?
No, I don't.
It was this toy that people had when I was a kid, and it was this woven tube.
And you put two fingers in it and it was loose when you put your fingers.
And when you pull tight, you can't get your fingers out.
And in order to get your fingers out, you have to relax and then they can come out.
And we use that all the time as shorthand for when we know that we're in one of those situations where we're just pulling tight.
For the sake or for a good reason, either way, it's not working.
And letting go isn't giving up your point of view or your feelings.
Actually, letting go is freeing yourself.
Yeah.
Getting the finger out.
Yeah.
It's the idea.
Yeah, that in order to actually get out I can't pull more, but I have to surrender some loosen my finger in order to be able to pull it out.
And that not holding tight to my need, to my yearning, to my What would you say to my what?
My anger?
My sadness?
To my teenage self.
Okay.
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Hi, I'm Brene Brown.
And I'm Adam Grant.
And we're here to invite you to The Curiosity Shop.
A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning.
It's going to be fun.
We rarely agree.
But we almost never disagree.
And we're always learning.
That's true.
You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.
How is Trump's psychology having an impact on the great power conflict?
There were folks who for years could never imagine the US carrying out limited strikes on Iran right.
If you go back to the 12-day war, he dropped those bunker busters, right?
And you had presidents, through multiple administrations, who never would have gone to full-scale war with Iran.
And here they are.
I'm Preet Bharara.
And this week CNN's chief national security analyst, Jim Sciutto, joins me to discuss the Iran war, our fraying alliances and the rise of Russia and China.
The episode is out now.
Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.
What would you tell her?
Would you feel abandoned if you change course?
No, I don't think so.
I think I would say that there are things that you can't comprehend, that will change, and that's not a bad thing, even though it feels like the worst thing in the world right now.
Be more specific.
I never could have imagined that I would be happy and okay that my family is no longer a family of four.
And So many good things have happened out of that.
And it has taught me so much about my own resilience and about my own pitfalls.
And it's all just part of the course.
You can't have the up without the down.
What are some of the highlights of that post-adolescence learning?
I think I was so angry with my mom right away that after that, I felt really afraid of anger.
And it took me a while to find it and recover, realize the utility of it and that ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
I do feel really to be the product of the home my parents created for us.
And even though that home doesn't exist in the same way, I still have the foundation that they gave me.
So maybe that that I was able to learn that the foundation didn't go away in a way that I thought it had, that it felt like it had dropped out and that I was floating.
But it hadn't, and it's still there.
What do you think of the sentence?
Divorce is the end of a marriage and the transformation of a family.
It's not the end of the family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They all come to your wedding, right?
Yeah.
Six of them.
Four of them and two of you.
Yeah.
That's hard for me to get on board with.
I feel somehow attached to that narrative.
Of the four of you.
Of that family having ended, as opposed to it having transformed.
I have relationships with each of them and each of these configurations, but it doesn't feel like the four of us have anything other than uncomfortable relationships.
Other than something that's uncomfortable.
And we do that, you know, cordially.
So you try not to be too much the four of you?
Or hardly ever the four of us.
But the six of you, yes?
No.
No, my parents don't really see each other.
And do you have a need?
To have them one time be able to gather around you.
I did at a point think that that would feel healing.
And it wasn't.
But they're both walking me down the aisle.
Yeah.
They will all be together, and I'm really glad that they will all be there.
So they are rallying for you.
Yeah, they can be in the same room.
They just choose not to be.
Right.
But they don't have to be in the same room.
The goal is for you to feel that they can wrap around you.
Yeah, I don't know how it will feel in the moment, but they'll be standing under the chuppah with us, so we'll find out, I guess, if it will feel that way.
Do you plan to speak with them before?
About this?
Yes.
About what would feel...
What would feel good on that particular day that you want from them as your mothers, not as the couple.
Yeah.
The couple doesn't come into the same room too often.
But the mothers have roles that they continue to play.
Yeah.
To inhabit.
And it's very clear.
When people know to distinguish between wives parents mothers, new partners.
The roles dictate the behaviors.
The role is filled with a clear set of expectations.
I think that I stopped feeling that maternal support from my mom when they split up.
And I've tied that, fairly or unfairly, To feeling as if she wasn't taking care of me emotionally by recognizing my experience.
Yeah.
Can I ask you something?
Of course.
And it's a question I would not have asked you 10 years ago.
Okay.
I think it's a question that is very developmental.
Do you think that your mom experienced you attacking her as a woman and then resenting her as a mother?
Yes.
Absolutely.
Is there space there to separate between these two?
Because sometimes people are doing things in their marriage, but that doesn't mean they become bad parents.
Yeah.
It's felt so connected.
And I guess I felt that their marriage was part of Of that.
You know, in the marriage ending it was ending the safe space that they created as mothers.
Which is why I wouldn't ask you this question 10 years ago.
Yeah.
But now.
Right.
Yeah, it's not something I feel for my other mother.
Right.
Is there room for you to say, I wish on occasion I would feel the motherly quality from you?
Again, I miss it.
Yeah.
I don't know that that would be beneficial.
I imagine that she would interpret that as...
If you say I want more of something, she will instantly think that you're telling her that she hasn't done enough of that thing.
Yes.
That's what defensiveness usually does.
Yeah.
So then one has to say, I love when you are motherly.
And I can't get enough of it.
Yeah.
I mean, there is a syntax that accompanies.
How can people who hear instantly the veiled criticism that is behind every wish, or reversed,
Behind every wish, they think there is a veiled criticism.
But this is really developmental.
Let's be very clear.
I would not suggest that when you're 19 because you do need that.
The marriage is the family.
But at this stage.
You're right.
It's not.
Right.
And I think that's why I said that it feels like letting go of that teenage part of me.
You know, I have an image.
I think that you should have the six of you at the wedding and the teenage girls.
And you can represent her in any way you want.
A bracelet on your hand, a picture of her somewhere on the chuppah.
But she should really, she belongs there too.
But somewhere she needs to be profoundly acknowledged because she really confronted a lot.
She sits there today and says I learned a lot and there were many opportunities and she's been kind of very mature about it but it took a lot.
Yeah.
And you will give yourself that recognition.
Yeah.
Meaning you are the third mother of that teenage girl who really sees what it took.
Yeah.
If you said something to her today, what would it be?
I think I'd say that.
It's okay to be angry and that it makes sense that you're angry and hurt.
And you'll find a way through that with or without her help.
That she doesn't hold the key to finding closure. to that chapter of my life.
Is there more?
What's coming to mind is like you can yell and scream as much as you want and it's not going to change anything.
But I'll hold it for us.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it's not useful.
It just means that maybe you're trying to change the wrong person.
Do you do nice things with her or does it feel to you every time you see her that you have to change?
Bring up the big issues.
We don't bring it up every time, but things don't feel nice when we do them together.
They don't.
Because there is tension between the two of you or because inside you're trying to hold it in?
Because inside...
I'm conflicted with the outside.
Yeah.
Choose something that you say, this I like to do with her.
What's one of those things that you enjoy together or that you turn to her for?
She's very good at giving advice.
And over the years has been an incredibly non-judgmental advice giver and confidant.
And I felt I could call her and I knew she wouldn't judge whatever I had, whatever was going on, and would have an open mind about what to do.
And have you continued to go to her?
No, she involved in the wedding planning.
She is not an equal proportion, but she is involved.
Yeah, I'm thinking is there so that you can ask from her and that you know she can deliver.
She takes a lot of pride in her home and in hosting people, and so she's going to host a post-wedding gathering.
And I know that she will do an amazing job at that.
Have you told her?
No.
You may want to consider.
It's a good idea.
And again, you're not saying that because you want to be nice to her and placate her Or accommodate.
You're saying it because when you reconnect with those aspects, it frees you.
Yeah.
Yeah, I really appreciate that distinction.
Because sometimes it's seen as, you know, and I have to go and be nice, you know.
Right.
And that's how it's felt.
I'm either being nice or I'm being honest.
Right, right.
And here, you're being nice and honest.
You can't say it on things that are not authentic.
Yeah.
But yes, how can I be nice and honest?
Yeah.
When that gap gets smaller, I get more free.
Yeah.
I feel more differentiated and i'm less trapped into wanting her to deliver something which the less she delivers and the worse i feel.
Yeah, i'm excited to try a few of those things out and i feel hopeful in having a different, just something different to try.
Wonderful, thank you so much for your time.
Thank you, this was an ester calling a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.
If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you.
Send your question to producer at EstherPerel.com.
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, and Kristen Muller.
Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jaxal.
