Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable.
Vocational education in China has long been dismissed as a second -tier path, overshadowed by the prestige of university degrees.
But now, the ties are turning.
High -achieving students are walking away from university offers to pursue technical diplomas.
us. Policies are shifting, perceptions are changing, and the value of skilled work is being redefined.
Is this the dawn of a new era where practical ability outranks paper credentials?
Coming to you live from Beijing, this is Roundtable.
I'm He Yang. For today's program, I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Yu Shun in the studio.
First on today's show.
For way too long, vocational education in China has not been the first choice for many students.
But that may be changing.
From the central government to local schools, a wave of policies and initiatives is aiming to elevate the status of vocational education, focusing on quality, industry integration, and global competitiveness.
And students are starting to take notice.
Notice they're weighing job prospects, skill relevance, and long -term development over traditional notions of prestige.
Let's begin with the driving force behind this shift, government policy.
What recent national initiatives are setting the stage for the rise of vocational education in China?
So the State Council recently released a plan on enhancing vocational skills training.
From 2025 to the end of 2027, China plans to boost the supply of skilled workers in many key areas like manufacturing and services, and the idea is to train over 30 million people in industries that really need talent, especially high -tech sectors and industries facing worker shortages to help more people land jobs, earn better incomes, and also build fulfilling careers through skills.
Yeah, so this plan is very specific.
It highlights fields like advanced manufacturing or the digital economy or the low altitude economy, low altitude aviation, think of things like drones or air mobility there, transportation, agriculture, and then everyday services as well.
So the training itself is going to focus on different industries and it's going to target key groups like company employees and college graduates and migrant workers, giving them all the tools they need to grow professionally and also stay competitive at the same time.
And this is that time of the year.
We know for high school graduates, they've taken the rigorous and gruesome, some would argue, Gaokao or the national entrance examination.
And a lot of people have gotten results.
And also for vocational school students, they could be applying for their next step of education as well.
So we talk about all these things in a number of surprising decisions.
High school graduates with high Gaokao scores are turning down traditional universities in favor of vocational schools.
What's motivating these students to take, let's say, the less conventional path?
And Yushun, please offer us, you know, sort of a little bit of perspective when it comes to, you know, how us Chinese people view these different educational options.
So this is kind of a growing phenomenon in China where, you know, students who achieve high scores in Gaokao or college entrance examination, often exceeding the undergraduate admission line, choose to enroll in vocational colleges or vocational universities instead of traditional undergraduate programs. And because people used to think that when you are not getting scores high enough, then you cannot get into or getting enrolled into a university or undergraduate university, then the second choice is getting into that kind of a vocational university.
Yeah, Canada, Canada has that same or has or had, I'm not sure if it's still fair to say that the stigma still exists.
But if you compare, you know, going to university versus going to vocational school, I think it's I think it's fair to say that there at least used to be a stigma about going to choosing a vocational school, maybe as a plan B, as opposed to your first choice.
What we're seeing here now in China, and again, I don't know if that stigma still exists or not.
It was always unfair, in my opinion.
But what we're seeing here now in China is students who are doing very, very well with their Gaokao scores, meaning that they could have many options in terms of their university choices.
They are still choosing to go the vocational route, even though their scores would qualify them to enter into a pretty good university.
Yes. And that is very surprising for most Chinese people looking at this.
Traditionally, I've heard this.
And I think this is very unfair way to look at the situation.
But sometimes people would say, yeah, I did terribly.
I failed in my Gaokao performance.
Therefore, I went to a vocational school.
And the F word, as in failure, it does come up.
So this is very, you know, eyebrow -raising for those in China to hear this news.
And Yushun, could you tell us some of the decisions that these high school graduates have chosen?
Yeah. So Chen Yuxuan is a student from Zhejiang province in eastern China who scored 602 points and was admitted to Zhejiang Polytechnic University of Mechanical and Electrical Engineering, which is a vocational university.
And that score is 602 points.
It's actually, you know, more than 100 points above the general undergraduate line.
Yeah. I was asking around the office this morning, what's the highest possible Gaokao score you can get?
And the majority answer was, oh, I don't even know because I didn't even come close to achieving that.
Nobody does write the top score.
So I heard it's it depends on the region of the country.
In some areas, it's 750.
In other areas, it might be a different number.
But I was told by many people that anything over 600 is considered a really, really, really good score.
And, you know, a lot of media has interviewed the students like this, Chen Yuxuan, right?
And they were answering things like, I don't think there are differences between like vocational school and undergraduate students.
students the more important thing is about the career that you're going to get after your graduation so they get the choice of these kind of of path and these this specific university attracted by its 98 employment rate and graduates going to large enterprises like china railway bureau so i think that is one of the main reasons students are choosing to go to these vocational colleges.
I love it already, because typically in the past, maybe China and Canada share this, your lower score, perhaps coming out of high school would define your choices, right, a little bit.
But your higher scores would typically not define your choices in that same sense.
Meaning, if you have high scores coming out of high school in Canada, if you have high scores coming out of high school in China, well, the automatic thought is just, oh, okay, off to a good university I go.
So it does kind of define you.
But what we're seeing here, especially with that example that you just gave, Yushan, is that the score doesn't define anything.
The score just gives you certain doors that will open, right?
And then the students make the choice which door they want to walk through with no definitions of preconceived societal expectations.
I wish I could see this as positively to me this says well scores don't define you but the job prospects defines your decision because with the examples that you shouldn't just gave in and and I saw some of these other interviews of high achievers in the gaokao who decide to ditch the traditional college path and go for vocational education instead they're pretty much for example they could go to a military academy, but of the vocational school level, and they have almost full employment when it comes to employability.
So it seems like these young people I think are, you can say that they're even more practical now, that what they want is a secure and stable job, which you will not be easily fired.
And they want this even before they make the decision of, oh, should I spend four years in an educational institution or maybe three years in a vocational school?
Or it depends on the program of the vocational school.
So I think I don't know what to make of it, but people seem to be pretty practical.
I see your point. It's like security becomes priority number one.
Kind of like that. And another eyebrow raising development is the phenomenon of university graduates enrolling in vocational programs. What's driving this unexpected reversal in educational paths?
Actually, in early July, the Zhenzhou Railway Vocational and Technical College announced that several of its majors would enroll undergraduate graduates, making, you know, people are having these kind of hashtags of undergraduate upgrade to vocational, which is a widely discussed topic in higher education area.
And this is not an isolated incident with other vocational colleges having previously enrolled re -entering undergraduates for skill certificates or a more secure job opportunity, including graduates from prestigious universities.
So this is another, I think, example proving that more and more people are placing greater importance on career planning than what kind of schools they are entering.
It seems like students now are becoming a little bit more specific with their career goals almost, most, right?
Because if you enter, I remember when I entered into my four -year university degree, I did that with no real idea about what I was going to do in the future, no real concerns about getting a job based on the degree that I was going to be getting.
But now it seems this trend is going in a much more specific way.
And I think that points to some of the differences between vocational education and undergraduate education.
For example, the focus and the purpose of vocational education is different, right?
It aims to equip students with professional ethics, of course, scientific and cultural knowledge, of course, but also technical skills, very specific technical skills that are required for a very specific occupation or career.
And it emphasizes the cultivation of this applied talent and also those skills that they learn, the abilities that they gain through the course of their studies.
And that totally differentiates from general education, where you just kind of go in and say, okay, here are the courses I'm going to take, and we'll see what happens in the future.
And another thing is that, you know, a lot of parents may tell their children saying saying that, of course, in the past, if you are really not good at studying or academic study, go get a skill, go to the vocational school, get a skill, and at least you can make sure you can make a living after you graduated.
But that's, I think now with all of these examples, it's getting different now.
And people, it's not only about the perception of people, It's also about the whole, I think, quality of industry in the whole society when all of the things are elevating and the quality of services are elevating and people may need more talents, no matter their only, you know, technical skills or academic study.
That's a really interesting direction you're pointing to in this discussion.
I think on the one hand, China really wants to increasingly become a service -oriented economy.
We're still on the journey to that.
But in theory, if there's more service jobs, then a college degree is valuable.
And, you know, being a lawyer, that's a service job.
Being someone, you know, opening a restaurant or being a server in the restaurant, that's also a service job.
And I think that's and also so many tech sector jobs, their service jobs and to a certain degree for that part of the economy, the college degree might still be a very basic entry ticket.
it. And on the other hand, China has a huge manufacturing sector as well.
And that part is becoming increasingly high skilled, which means that you need people who are awesome technicians, who are highly skilled labor.
And they also need to be able to not only work with the computer but work with their hands.
And this is another part of our economy that I suppose all parties involved would like to see a big push and development.
So in theory, with both sectors growing, then there should be more jobs and there should be more demand for these kind of workers.
But at the same time, you can argue that there could be a mismatch in in this whole swarm of people graduating from these different institutions, but not necessarily fitting into the right place when it comes to the job.
And there's one thing I'd like to just circle back briefly, because I think you showed what you mentioned earlier just now about the the undergraduate, undergrad to vocational path.
That is like, again, so shocking for most Chinese observers because you're talking about somebody who's graduated with a four -year degree and then look at the crossroads of this person's job prospects and say, huh, I'm going to do a U -turn and go back to vocational education and critics of the higher education system in this country argue that the undergrad to vocational path raises uncomfortable questions.
If a university graduate needs to return for a vocational diploma, often seen as lower tier qualification, was their four -year degree really worth it?
Is this a sign that traditional higher education is falling short of equipping students with the skills that they actually need to find a job in a very competitive labor market?
And that same question is being posed by a certain group of people in North America as well.
And it all has to do, not all, but a large part of it has to do with the cost of university in Canada and the United States.
There's information from the education data initiative that says that the average cost of college in the United States has more than doubled in the 21st century.
And data from the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center shows that the number of students enrolled in vocational focused community colleges increased 16 % between 2022 and 2023.
So there is this shift happening in North America as well.
I found this from Forbes, And this is kind of alarming.
And this is talking about how college degrees can sometimes have a negative ROI, a negative return on investment.
There was data from FRIOP.
That's the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity.
They completed a study not so long ago on degrees that fall into this category.
And the 2024 analysis, like I said, was pretty alarming.
This is what they found.
Two -year liberal arts degrees have virtually no ROI, no return on investment, meaning if you finish a two -year liberal arts degree, you are not going to get any return on your investment, meaning the money that you've put into your education.
Another 23 % of bachelor's degree programs have a negative ROI.
Almost half of master's degrees programs have a negative ROI.
Now, of course, that's going to depend on the school and the program.
And what that means is, for example, if you go to a four -year state school, meaning you're a citizen of that same state, you're going to pay about almost $12 ,000 for 2024, 2025, the academic year.
If you're out of state, that's going to cost you about $30 ,000.
So that's what I mean.
So it depends on where you go to school, right, when you're considering these return on investments.
assessments um but the point here is is that going back to what you said is that students now are starting to look at well if i'm going to enter into a four -year university bachelor's degree or whatever i have no guarantee of a job in the future i'm not necessarily learning any specific vocational skill here maybe i just should be looking for to vocational school from the very beginning that's a discussion that's happening in north america too and also i i saw a commentary from uh red net which is uh like domestic media outlet and it argues that bachelor's degree holders pursuing these kind of vocational
programs shouldn't be seen simply as just a kind of over education or skill enhancement instead it's a result of intertwined factors like social development education realities and so job market demands we should also you know realize that an undergraduate education often lacks practical training and of course this is something China's education system has been actively working on right we discussed it before like micro majors also under vocational undergraduate degrees something like that and it risk The response should be rational and also reform oriented, shifting perceptions and improving
the educational system to help students actually find paths that suit them rather than just falling into a cycle of credentialism and saying like wasted resources.
sources. And also where you mentioned ROI, of course, that's kind of solid stats that people may find when they are comparing their investment and their maybe paychecks.
But still, what we can learn from university is not only the thing that you're going to get or the path, the career path you're going to get in the future.
It's also about being a man, right?
It's also your like life classes that teach you how to survive in the society.
So yeah, it's not saying that there's nothing to be learned for a young man or a young woman at university.
And we're also not sitting here saying, don't go to university.
But we are saying there's a reflection in society about how young people are feeling, it seems, right?
Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
And those statistics in the United States and other Western countries, they'll support the same notion, right?
All we're doing is saying, hmm, perhaps there is another option, perhaps there is another route, or perhaps there's both routes where we're seeing students get their degree and then move on to vocational schools to kind of further solidify their skills before they enter turn into the job market?
Yeah, well, I mean, when it comes to every individual's choice and looking at their own situation, I trust everybody will make the best decision suitable for you.
But also we're taking a step back and looking at sort of, well, is this a trend or tendencies or patterns or emerging trends that might be happening?
And behind this push for better vocational education is a national strategy.
Why is vocational education being prioritized at the highest levels?
How does it support economic transformation, reduce talent mismatch, and possibly breaking breaking down social bias.
I think this is reflecting a kind of, you know, weakening of that kind of degree only bias or shift towards ability based evaluation and the traditional mindset of, you know, that kind of white collar superior to blue collar and degree supremacy is being challenged.
And that is indicating that vocational education is kind of waning social recognition through its own advantages and another thing is students they are having as we said like much clearer ideas on what they are going to get and what they want of by choosing that specific major or specific school even when they're getting to college and I remember I heard from one of my friends saying that maybe in the West or some countries when you're getting to college you don't even need to choose a major because a lot of students don't know even what they want to learn yeah if i remember correctly you don't
have to choose it right away yeah you have maybe after one year or something along those lines yeah and then that means of course we are having more choices when you are you know picking different paths in the future and that's the advantage of university right is that it's it's it's not as specific as vocational training is, of course, but that could be a good thing if you're not sure about what it is that you want to do with your future.
That is true. And for some reason, in the year 2025, that all sounds like a luxury to me, considering just how expensive tuition fees to go to American colleges, universities, if you're out of state.
Yeah. And if you're a foreign citizen, and also just just considering the job prospects and everything.
Certainly young people these days, maybe because you get information from so many different channels and people, let's just say some people, I think they're looking at this more matter of fact and very practical to a certain extent.
And perceptions don't change overnight.
What do you see as challenges?
That vocational education still face in China from income gaps to lingering stigma and what makes it or what can be done to overcome them?
You know, the thing is that we are mentioning a lot of good examples of people's perceptions are changing.
changing, but the thing is that it is still a kind of thing that is really hard to overcome.
If the society no longer held any bias or prejudice against, you know, vocational education, we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.
So, of course, there's still a long way to go, and when people are having the idea of thinking it is a U -turn, we are having a bias right now.
Yeah, exactly. And we have to take into account the perception, right?
Because perception is reality.
And if companies look at this through a negative lens, then that might be bad for the students in making these decisions.
So I agree, we need kind of a fundamental shift in how people think about this.
And you talked about the the salary gap.
And that's a real that's a real fact.
The average monthly income for bachelor's graduates six months after graduation was almost six thousand two hundred yuan.
That's about eight hundred and sixty dollars compared to four thousand seven hundred and seventy five yuan, about six hundred and sixty five dollars for higher vocational graduates.
graduates. So that data from Mycos tells us that that gap is real and hopefully that gap closes at some point in the future.
Yeah. I always feel a little bit torn when we talk about closing that gap.
And it very much comes from me being a consumer.
Because right now, I think, inadvertently if you live in china we are enjoying the tremendous perks of cheap labor of service being relatively cheap compared internationally and of course it'll be great if everybody can earn more money and when the service um expenses improve or let's say when when the service workers can get more money from their work.
And that means that you as a consumer, you will be paying more as well.
But I think ultimately, it is, let's look at the end of month or beginning of month.
When the salary is wired into your account, if that number is big, then it really does help to fight off the stigma.
And that won't happen overnight.
It might not even happen in a few years time.
But when we see these students are voting with their educational choices, then this shows that there's possibly a crack in the wall of employment hierarchy and subtle changes are taking place.
And I think that's one interesting change that that I take as a promising sign of changes happening in our labor market.
After talking about this topic on the show for maybe 10 years, but these changes are possibly quietly taking place, and we think it's our responsibility to point it out to you.
