Hi, everyone. It's Hugh here.
Before today's show starts, just to let you know about our live tour.
We did one last year and absolutely loved it.
So we've written a brand new show.
It's called Together Again, and we cannot wait to tour it later in the year.
Tickets available at livenation .com .au.
We'll be appearing at cities all over the country.
The following conversation with Vincent Fantuzzo contains some discussions around sexual abuse and suicide.
So if you feel like that's something you can't engage with right now, then we encourage you to skip.
But please do come back because Vincent is a remarkable person and this is an incredible story worth hearing.
My name is Bridget and I produce The Imperfects.
I grew up in Australia, but my ancestors arrived by boat in search of gold during the 1800s.
What I've come to realise is that they arrived on land that had been cared for by the Indigenous peoples of this continent for millennia.
It was, and always will be, Aboriginal land.
We at The Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respects to their elders past and present.
At The Imperfects, my job is to create a space for important stories to be heard, And in doing so, I pay homage to a rich history of storytelling cultivated by the world's oldest living culture.
There was some violence that I can't even talk about because of who and what, but I can tell you that it was enough to wet my bed every single night.
And... You know how I said the vulnerability can just pop up?
It kind of sucks that things happen to a kid that then do this to them.
We're all imperfect.
And on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
I'm Hugh van Cuylenburg from The Resilience Project.
And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.
And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
And this is The Imperfects.
well if you like really good things you've come to the right place because today we are chatting with a man who i know his name i know how to say his name i'd practiced it for some reason when he sat in front of us i just felt like i was in the presence of a genius i got nervous and i just panicked yeah but it's vincent fantuzo fantuzo fantuzo yeah i think it's fantuzo yeah absolutely i'd practice it one of australia's great artists painters printers.
And lovely guy. So interesting.
It was so nice to meet him.
Extraordinary man. So in preparation for the interview, I listened to the book.
His story is just incredible.
Which listening to it, read by Richard Roxburgh, what an experience.
Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. But he spoke about so many incredible things, like really honestly, beautifully beautifully and tragically about a very traumatic childhood.
There was dyslexia, discussions about dyslexia.
Well, dyslexia is something we haven't spoken about on this podcast. And it's to actually hear someone talk about how much of a challenge it is.
It's a really good thing for us all to listen to.
But also, I mean, I found it, we all did, so fascinating because what Vincent really became famous for is his portrait of Heath Ledger that he did that won the People's Choice Award at the Archibald.
You've probably seen it.
It's the painting of Heath Ledger where there's three versions of Heath.
But the story that Vincent tells about the painting of that painting is just incredible.
Yeah. Such an amazing insight into that time.
Yeah. It's a great app.
Yeah. If we do so say ourselves.
Well, he's great. He's great.
It's a great app. And actually, the whole podcast is fantastic.
There's many episodes.
It's wonderful. Wonderful, the Imperfects, you should check it out.
We'll put links to all episodes in the show notes.
Just check out the 200 -ish links in the show notes, yeah.
Yeah, and a lot of chat about neurodiversity as well, which I obviously found very interesting.
And I actually thought – I often will share a story and anecdote before we start an episode, but I always preface it by saying this will be no more than two minutes.
And then everyone laughs and says that's ridiculous.
It will go for much longer than it always does.
This will actually go for two minutes, this one.
But it's so relevant.
I'm watching the clock.
It's so relevant to today's episode.
As most people probably know, we are parenting an autistic child.
And just had a lovely moment in our house the other day with two things that relate to this episode or two themes that relate to it.
I'm going to give them – we've put a lot of work into protecting the identity of our kids in this.
And so I'm going to give them fake names here because it's the only way I know how to tell the story.
And you might be thinking, oh, the gender gives it away.
I might have switched the genders.
You don't know. Yeah.
um so i'm going to call my kids here um archie and michaela okay cool yeah uh michaela names thank you i love it michaela was archie and michaela so michaela was um drawing doing a drawing the other day doing a drawing of a scene that um which incidentally unfolded at her kinder.
And she was drawing away and I said to her, my gosh, you are so artistic.
And she went, no, I'm not.
That's Archie. And I went, what?
Artistic. Yeah. And she goes, no, you said that because we've been talking about autism a lot.
We want to have the language in the house.
We're talking about our brains.
I'm talking about my ADHD brain.
Yes. And we're talking about Archie's autistic brain.
And she just went, no, I'm not.
That's Archie. That is hilarious.
We're now looking at getting some assessments done for Michaela as well because we've had some challenges.
And in that conversation, we've just been explaining to her that we will find out what type of brain she has.
And she said, I think I already know.
And I said, well, what is it?
And she said, well, I think they'll find that I'm autistic and artistic.
I love it. Which made me think of today's guest because it turns out he is both those things.
He's an autist. Yeah, he's an autist. Can I just, you've finished that anecdote on exactly two minutes.
There you go. Finally.
At last. He really, Vincent, this is, really had that aura of just we're in the presence of a genius and he was fascinating.
And even when the mic stopped, he didn't stop.
He kept going regardless of some of the most extraordinary stories I've ever heard in my life.
But the book is called Unveiled, and I did have a bone to pick with Vincent, but I didn't get a chance.
But when we went on our family holiday, we invited mum and dad on our family holiday because we wanted to have mum and dad, but we also wanted mum and dad.
We were hoping mum and dad could do a lot of the heavy lifting, looking after the kids so Penny and I could get some time together.
Dad would not put his bloody book down and he kept disappearing.
I go to mum, where's dad?
She goes, oh, he's hiding, reading a book he's got.
It was Vincent's book.
Oh, wow. Yeah, it's a wonderful book and he's a wonderful, wonderful man.
Yeah, and also like this bonus fact, which has no real effect or impact on the interview, but husband of Asher Keddie, who is the subject of one of his Archibald People's Choice Award paintings with his beautiful painting Love Face.
Who Archibald is actually the extended name of Hugh's fake son.
Yeah. it's incredible how it all connects Archibald Archibald yeah Archibald yeah anyway let's get to it this has been simply hope you enjoyed I feel extremely excited we are joined by someone today who and if this isn't a sign that you've made it I don't know what is is that there is a YouTube video with 1200 views on how to pronounce his surname oh really and they still fuck it up yeah let's go so here it goes Let's go around in a circle.
Hugh, do you want to take a stab?
Well, there are three different versions out there, and I would like to go with the Italian version, if I may.
It's very cultured.
Very impressive. We're joined today by Vincent Fantotso.
Ba -bow. Phone a friend.
Phone an Italian friend.
Okay, let me just go with, like, just, Let me just go with the flow then rather than trying to be...
Okay, we're joined today.
This is the least like going with the flow than I've ever seen.
Just let it flow. Reading off a laptop.
Okay, I'm eagerly awaiting Hugh's second attempt.
We are joined today by Vincent Fantuzzo.
Yes. That's what I would have guessed.
Why didn't I go with my...
Of course you would have. Now it's said.
Now it's said. In hindsight, that's what I thought.
You're the first painter that we've ever had on The Imperfects.
So cultural you are Yeah, anti -cultural but no, we're very excited, this is really really cool, it's so nice to meet you No one really wants to talk about painting anymore.
I do, I do desperately.
So if you mix yellow and blue Save it, save it, we'll find out later But I know Hugh wants to give a proper introduction uh yeah so i've written a bio for you which i i really actually i really enjoyed doing it because i uh having just finished your book and just learning about your life was incredible so vincent has never done things the easy way a fighter in every sense of the word vincent learned to survive with his fists firstly as a kid on the streets of broadmeadows and then in the boxing ring where disciplined pain and resilience shaped him long before he picked up a paintbrush he was throwing
punches in the dark fighting battles most people would never see against the weight of severe dyslexia, against the feeling of not fitting in, and against a world that didn't yet understand the power and beauty that he held inside.
But somewhere along the way, Vincent traded gloves for brushes, and in that act, he found a new way to fight, not with force, but with feeling.
His portraits don't just depict people, they disarm them.
They reveal the truth beneath the skin.
With a canvas and oil, Vincent has become one of the most celebrated artists in the country, winning the Archibald People's Choice Award a record -breaking four times and yet for all the acclaim there is no ego in his work only honesty and love and perhaps no painting speaks more to the heart of who vincent is than his portrait of his son luca titled all that's good in me the work that didn't just win the people's choice award and at the archibalds but won the hearts of the nation his other people's choice awards were for in 2008 for heath appointed portrait of his friend heath ledger completed
just before the actor's tragic passing.
2009, Brandon capturing child actor Brandon Walters from the film Australia.
And in 2013, Love Face, a tender portrayal of actress Asha Keddie, who would later become his wife.
At his core, Vincent is not just an artist, he's a father, a partner, a man who has taken every broken piece of his story and turned it into something transcendent.
He once fought with his hands, now he fights with his heart.
And in both arenas, Vincent has become something rare, a quiet warrior for vulnerability and courage.
A man whose life reminds us all that greatness isn't about perfection, it's about connection.
Welcome to the Imperfects podcast. Wow.
Firstly, I appreciate that so, so much. I feel like we should just leave it there because I sound really good and I'm going to fuck it right up.
Well, thanks for doing it.
So the plan was to talk about your childhood first, but just reading that, there's something else I want to ask you.
What's your relationship like with the word vulnerability?
When you think vulnerability, what do you think?
You know, I try and be strong and I realise now how vulnerable I am.
I feel like sharing vulnerability helps people, But I also feel like some things I've realized now are so sensitive that I haven't dealt with that when I talk about them, the vulnerability is very strong.
like you know i think it's helped people i know understand maybe my reaction and choices and even my kids or or asha um you know our childhoods uh you know are made up of so many things that affect us every single day all day and sometimes you don't even know why and i'm starting to kind kind of learn why reading about your childhood I was I was heartbroken by how vulnerable you were in so many situations but then blown away by how you dealt with that but then I also look at the person you are now and the paintings you're able to do must come from a place of like you must be very vulnerable to
be able to um to be able to make the connections with the people you paint there must be a level of vulnerability there which is like a strength you know if you if you can't see your hearing improves and if you can't do a certain thing you can grow in a different way and i think not being able to read and write feeling very insecure and wanting to learn desperately i started to learn through conversation and i was the annoying kid that asked too many questions i love people and i love meeting people and learning about them And it's not just words, it's people's energy.
I feel energy a lot.
Like even thinking about it, my hair will stand up.
Well, we were chatting about this.
We went over for coffee as I was getting coffees.
Sorry you weren't invited.
No, no, but I saw Vincent as he was walking in and he came over to the cafe.
And one of the first things you mentioned to me is like my energy is a thing that you were picking up on.
And we were talking about how that can be like a strength, length but also it can kind of if if it's a bad energy like like i said you have yeah it was one of the first things he was like oh no no no no no which which no i thought i might be wrong but i felt like a very funny but calming energy i mean on on that i just do you think because you're someone who paint you paint portraits of of people and so in doing that Matt, you're obviously naturally a very curious person about other people.
Are you comfortable in this environment where everyone, where we're talking about you?
Like, is that something that you're comfortable doing?
It's the only thing that was wrong in the bio was the ego thing.
I love it. No, I feel awkward, but I feel privileged and humbled, but I also feel kind of obligated that sharing stories and then seeing the impact that it has on people and maybe helps them, especially as an artist, it's hard to impact people just through paintings.
And now I've had a chance through the book and podcasts and things to be vulnerable and we all kind of go on the journey together.
So Josh and I grew up in Orwyn, for those of you who don't know.
Where is that? But Eastern suburbs, very leafy, very safe.
It's a dry area. Sheltered.
Very sheltered. Ryan grew up in Brighton.
Main streets of Brighton, yeah.
Where all the Range Rovers go to die.
Yes, I feel like. Josh and I were officially the least feared boys in Bourne and Ryan was, I'm going to guess, the least feared boy in Brighton.
You don't know a thing about me, bro.
You were the most feared kid in Broadmeadows.
Your childhood, I mean, I had to stop when I was reading it because I just felt so scared for this child.
Could you talk us a little bit through your childhood?
Yeah. Before I start that, I feel like people can grow up in a place like I did on paper.
It's all of those things.
But I know, you know, I have a lot of friends from Brighton, you know, and I have friends from leafy suburbs and sometimes they can go through just as powerful and complicated situations.
It could be that, you know, their executive dad doesn't give a fuck about them.
Their marks aren't good enough.
They're gay and they can't tell their parents.
Everyone has these complicated childhoods.
I wouldn't want people to think I'm, like, oh, I'm a victim, and I was poor and all this stuff.
But I think I grew up in fear in so many ways.
Like I don't know where to start really.
So can we start with the physical safety?
That was certainly something that you didn't have as a child.
I'll also just explain with my dyslexia and ADHD, it's a bit like watching TV and someone keeps flicking their channels and I'll forget what I'm talking about.
Um, there was, there was some violence that I can't even talk about because of who and what, but I can tell you that it was enough to wet my bed in every single night.
And you know how I said the vulnerability can just pop up and I don't, I don't mind talking about things, but some things, you know, it's, it kind of sucks that things happen to a kid that then do this to them.
Even now, like most nights, I'll go to bed with a smile on my face, dancing on bed with my kids and dressing up and doing silly stuff.
And I'll wake up happy as well, but then Asher will wake me up because I'm screaming and kicking in my sleep or crying, You know, I wish I dream every single night.
It's like a movie marathon. There's some good movies as well.
But a lot of them are very complicated and it's like no drug fixes them, no alcohol fixes them.
It's like fucking go away.
And that's – so I don't know if that gives you an idea.
That's the part that people don't see.
Then there's the streets where, you know, You can't go to the milk bowl without getting to a fight.
I had to fight pretty much every single day.
As I got older, that included bats and bars and knives and even got to guns.
I was never a bully, but I would bash myself in the face and make myself bleed when I'm going to fight someone.
I'll just make them think I'm a fucking crazy dog.
and I fought like that but then I'd go home and cry because you know I didn't want to be that it's it's really it's really really heartbreaking and try and even imagine that how old are you and this is happening when you're fighting this I started you know like seven or eight you go down the street and there's a bunch of kids and you're fighting but they're you know they're scuffles you I knew, I always knew what situation would go so far.
Those situations, you might get a black eye.
When I got a bit older, there would be groups coming down.
I'd get phone calls in my house.
People ask for me and Fred in my life.
And I'm like, that's, you know, my 14 year old worries about dad, I'm going to be late for soccer.
And, you know, I was fearing for my life in cases.
And what was frustrating was I wasn't looking for trouble and I wasn't starting trouble.
But I think because of things that were out of my control abuse -wise were happening to me outside, I wouldn't take anything like, I don't care, I'm going to fucking get a bottle and stick it over your head and pick it off a fence and I'm not taking shit outside where I can defend myself.
self it's like my past is a movie that i've watched and i'm so different now and your um siblings was where are you in the in the eu brother sister me sister brother right so right middle yep yep okay in the book um there's a heartbreaking um mentioning of repeated repeated sexual abuse that you suffered as a kid.
And in the context of what we've been talking about, that is appalling in itself and awful, but the idea of having to handle that alone as a child just completely breaks my heart.
And I guess I wanted to ask you, what does that do to you when you have to try and take on that stuff alone?
Yeah, it's something I've thought a lot.
And again, it's one of those things that, you know, a lot of people have this same story.
And since the book, I've heard a lot of people share their own experience.
They kept this secret there in their 50s or 60s or 70s.
One guy that was 84 years old came up bawling his eyes out after the book talk and he was with his wife and she said in 65 years of marriage, she hadn't seen him cry once.
And it's like, you know, it hits you really hard. Like, but it's also why I feel like it's an obligation to talk about it.
And if I help that one guy at, you know, 84 to let go of, not to let go but his wife said i so much makes sense now yeah like the poor guy had to hold that in all that time and some people feel like oh well you know it was just these kind of things it could be one moment for 10 minutes and that's enough it doesn't matter if it went on for five years or it happened once and they'd be like oh well i can't really i don't want to i don't want I just want to tell people that every moment of my life after that 10 minutes, every single day when I had my first girlfriend, when I lost my virginity or when someone
tries to pick me up or says something complimentary or it's stained their life forever.
And you can't underestimate that, what their feelings are.
Some people can put it away and they can move on with their life.
And that's, you know, we're all born with different minds and some people are more vulnerable.
You can't escape, like, how much does it suck?
You need a little delete button in your head because every, you know, here I am talking about it now and I thought about it, you know, when you watch a TV show.
You just think about it all the time.
Whether it gets you, might not even get you down, but why do you have to have that stupid fucking thought coming in all the time?
It's very frustrating.
Yeah. My feeling when I read that was it was an absolute heartache, but then very quickly I'm just aware of how many people will read it and I was thinking this is going to change so many people's lives and to hear that an 84 -year -old man came up and told you that, that must feel like by having the courage to share you've done something, you've done a really good thing there.
Yeah, the book tour has been like a very emotional ride.
Like I had one woman, she was bawling her eyes out as well, and she has a nonverbal autistic son, adult son, and she said she finally heard him talking.
See, my son calls me Mr. Motion.
I'm a Mr. Man, Mr. Emotional at the moment.
I was Mr. Forgetful and now I've changed to Mr. Emotional.
But I feel like, wow, it's like, and then there's the dyslexia and different things and people understand their children now.
There's a large statistic of kids in youth prisons that have ADHD, dyslexia, autism on the spectrum somehow or some kind of diversity.
Broken parents and all these things, I ticked all the boxes and I could very, I mean if I had got caught, I was pretty smart, I would definitely be there for a long time as well.
There's also a very high percentage of like super successful people with all the same things.
They're entrepreneurs, Richard Branson and Steven Spielberg and there's Tom Cruise.
But then there's like the sports people that have incredible minds, really strong as musicians, creative people, engineers, you know, So I feel like if there's more awareness, then there's a chance when you come to the fork in the road that you might get a better shot, or even just, you get so low on self -confidence.
So if confidence in a young person is everything, and if you can get them confident about something positive.
I got confident at one point about I was good at being bad, and yeah, good one, yeah, that was great how you smacked him in the head with a pole.
And then you want to do it again to impress these people or, you know, you're a class clown, which I think is actually not a bad thing.
But, you know, whatever is giving you confidence.
Then I had boxing and then I had art.
And, you know, I feel a bit guilty sometimes saying, oh, I find I'm lucky I have a talent.
But there's always something in these young people and adults that, you know, it might be dealing with people and empathy.
It might be, you know, could be the engineering.
There's a lot of problem solving.
Yeah. I want to put it out there for people to know that it's actually a gift. It's just a matter of, you know, how do you use it?
Yeah. With the fighting, you were more often than not, almost every single time, standing up for someone.
You hated seeing people getting bullied more than anything.
And that triggered something in you.
you? In school, I would be in a special class.
I was undiagnosed at that time.
Undiagnosed dyslexia, you mean?
Spectrum, autism. I got a whole bunch of good stuff, but I now know that it is good stuff.
I didn't at the time, so I was in a special class.
Me, the kid with Tourette's, the kid in in the wheelchair, the blind kid, the deaf kid, and I'd go out at lunchtime and, you know, this particular kid still emails me now.
He also had Tourette's and different things and he'd go out at lunchtime and he would start humping a pole or something and kids would, or, you know, yelling out loud and kids would tease him and I just, like, I'd just have to punch him in the face, you know, because I just, just. couldn't handle seeing someone yeah i can get through a day and no one would know how hard it is but um but then you know when you you can't defend yourself verbally or you know you're doing terrible in class and you want to get kicked out of class if you're in the class where you can't even read what's on the board
when it comes to your you know the class is going going around reading a book and it comes to your turn and you know how bad it's going to be.
You do something silly or funny and you get kicked out of class.
And I'm like, oh fuck, that was good.
You know, just in time.
Um, and the same thing, if you're at lunchtime and you whack some kid cause he was picking on your mate, then, um, you're in trouble and it's just, it's very depressing for a kid, you know, and you just don't know know how to find a way out yeah like i would meet people's parents and i just sweat thinking they're going to know i'm dumb because that's what you feel like um when you if you don't want to talk about it obviously that's totally fine but as he just mentioned um as a kid a relentless determination to stand up for people who are being bullied or picked on I wondered if you've ever thought
about it that you as a kid at home were being bullied and picked on physically was there no one like you were there was no one to defend you in that situation no and that's part of the frustration now is you know how do you get through and again I don't want to sound like some sook because I'm happy with who I am but you know how do you get through the whole of schooling, I didn't pass one, not one class, didn't even get a mark.
Didn't hand an assignment in because I didn't know how.
Never wrote anything that would make any sense.
And you get through school and no one says anything.
And at home, you know, my mom was a single mom with five kids, mostly to four kids at home.
And she slept on the couch for 15 years.
And, you know, and we'd have the sheriff snuck in on the door and all this kind of – we'd had no money.
And she worked as well.
She worked hard. But she's also the kind of person if, you know, we got a cheque from the council to go and buy shopping, she would give half of it to someone else.
Someone else would always be sleeping on the couch as well.
Or, you know, it was – that's kind of how we grew up.
But I still have feelings of resentment like, did you know that was happening?
The sexual abuse? Yep.
I also learnt very, very well to hide everything.
Is it a, because having not been in the same situation as you have as a kid, but even as a kid in my situation, showing weakness was sort of you don't want to show weakness.
Like it's just sort of something that sort of maybe it's just a boy thing, sort of like society.
It's a problem, I think.
Yeah, it definitely is.
But I think especially when we were kids, it's like as a boy, you don't want to seem like anything's bothering you.
You're on top of things, you know.
But for you having to kind of like keep it all a secret.
I didn't show any weakness at all.
You know, even like I was so hardcore about not showing any weakness, I'd break my leg and three weeks later they put it in a castle.
So I wouldn't cry. I was always laughing.
I like humour and comedy.
But it was either that or violence or anger.
But even I did feel the anger, but it was more like a defence mechanism.
You know, like I was pretending to be angry rather than crying.
Have you always felt emotions dialed up to 11?
Did you notice? I toned it down from 15.
Yeah, 11's not enough, is it?
Yeah, I think I did, yeah.
Yeah, as far back as I can remember, yeah.
I imagine in the environment you're describing, that's a problem.
Yeah well I felt the emotions but I didn't show them so much I wouldn't cry I would almost take it so my taking it and not showing it was like a fuck you So your fighting skills on the streets you ended up pursuing so you became a boxer and had the incredible privilege of being coached by by Jack Rennie, is that right?
So what was it that made you think, right, I'm going to do this in a more safer environment or a professional environment?
Riding my bike past his gym actually and I saw, you know, it was like a house and I heard people running up and down a driveway and skipping and I just randomly went in to have a look and I was doing Taekwondo.
I had a lot of Taekwondo fights as well, but martial arts for kids is expensive.
and I had no money I had no one to take me there my whole life I kind of luck out on things there was a guy there that was willing to let me train if I packed up and you know swept and did a kind of you know Mr Miyagi style problem is for people like myself is I don't know how to speak Korean and I can't learn the words and they want you to do a pattern before you get your next bout I don't even know the alphabet you know so I'm not going to learn that How old were you at this point?
I must have started that when I was seven.
And again, I started it myself.
I went there, I walked past and I saw them in there and I said, can I join and got someone's old suit and da -da -da.
I actually ended up getting my black belt.
It was almost given to me because I couldn't do the patterns, but I was competing and I was winning the tournaments.
But then I couldn't do the, like I said, it's silly.
Then I found a box and I said, oh, this is good.
no, you know, just punching people.
It's great. I met this guy, Jack Rennie, who coached Lionel Rose, many world champions.
He was just this Aussie bloke in the back of the gym.
And I now know that he had a very similar upbringing.
I've only learned recently from his son who contacted me after the book and just said, wow, you really understood him.
He was also secretly an artist that no one knew about.
And he was kind of – yeah, he's a macho guy.
He was an artist. Not my thing.
I'm not allowed to do it.
Anyway, I was fighting.
He knew my background and the guns and the violence of drugs, whatever it might be.
And he said, if you want to train here, something's just got me so emotional.
um i grew up with no boundaries and we want boundaries but we want to pretend that we don't and he was the first person ever to say don't fuck up you want to train here this is what you got to do he said i understand if your back's against the wall you know but you're going to have to be a different person and i said fuck you know he taught me so much more than boxing That's the dad I would've liked.
Yeah. Um, one day I, you know, I was fighting, I was winning fights.
I thought, you know, I'm good at boxing.
My first little trip, I went to Tasmania, got on a plane.
It was like, wow, this is really cool.
I wanna be a boxer.
You know, I thought this is a way out.
This is how poor people get out, or just poor, like people that are struggling, you know, it's a, it's a way out.
So I wanted to thank him one day.
So I came in with a drawing, gave it to him.
And now I know why he had a tear roll down.
You don't see this guy emotional.
And he said, now I know you're going to be all right.
Yeah. It was partially insulting and partially a compliment because I think he thought, you know, you're going to do better at art than you would at boxing.
Like, fuck, I thought I was good.
I mean, that really makes me emotional thinking about that because to be validated by someone that you respect and that obviously respects you.
The fact that I knew he set me boundaries and cared, then when he said that, it meant so much more.
This was different, and I just, oh, it's like someone, someone, like, there's the confidence that kid needs to not end up in jail.
It didn't completely change me.
I still went on to do dodgy things.
But I knew someone cared.
That's like a bit of data that you store in your brain to go like, I can do it.
Here's the positive data that you also think about every day as well.
And I think that's how you get through the bad shit it when you have the positive, outweigh it.
So he asked me to do a drawing, a painting of Lionel Rose and Johnny Famigian.
They both turned, Lionel Rose used to be there in the corner and it was amazing.
So he, I did this painting, it was from a very old photo where they once sparred, it was black and white, I painted it in colour.
We used it to raise some money for a charity and it went to the Boxing Hall of Fame and I got paid for the first time in my life is some money and I thought, Oh wow, this is cool.
I can, you know, I can make some money.
Are you still seven or eight at this stage?
Oh no, this is like, uh, you know, 15.
Oh, you're 15 on stage.
Okay, great. Okay. Gotcha.
15 or 16 something.
Wow. But I wasn't working at this time.
I'd left school. I left school when I was 13.
Again, like how do you, how does a kid get away with leaving it while it's kicked out, but then don't go back to school.
And I was working in a kitchen with these fuck heads.
So the one time my dad comes back around he says oh I'll get you a job or you could have got me some shoes but he never paid my mum one cent of child support because he wanted us to suffer so then we blamed my mum.
So she didn't get any help at all, not one bit and she didn't want to challenge it because she didn't want a custody issue.
That happens a lot too.
I heard that story a lot with single mums they don't want the abusive husband or the shit husband coming back for a custody battle.
So they just shut up and live without any support.
So he said, I'll get you a job, gets me a job with these scumbag criminals.
I worked maybe a hundred hours a week, sometimes all night and got paid like, you know, $4 .50 an hour or something.
We're going to give you an apprenticeship, never happened.
I will skip through a few restaurants similar for many years.
So I was boxing as as hard as I could at the same time.
And, you know, then I get someone like Jack and I'm like, oh, good people.
There's good people there.
I think it would be important for us – for people to hear what your relationship with your dad was like and perhaps what you would have liked it to be like.
It wasn't much of a relationship.
I chased a relationship.
He never read a book.
He never went to the park.
He never rode a bike.
like he never kicked a ball.
He didn't do anything.
And I didn't know that that was normal until I started seeing other people doing it with their kids.
And I was so jealous.
And I thought to myself as a little kid, I'm going to find what he's passionate about and I'll try and jump in there and do that.
He was good at cooking.
And so I would just follow him around, try and help, try and get involved.
There were key moments that were so disappointing.
I thought, oh, you know, I got to stop trying because trying is breaking me.
Because every time you try and it doesn't work, then you get rejected again.
Like I would send him a long message and it's his birthday or something and I'd get a thanks.
Or it was my birthday.
He was obviously reminded by someone else and he would say, happy birthday.
And I'm like, well, that's fucking nice, isn't it?
You know, I had all these boxing fights and sporting events, didn't turn up to one.
And I started to think, why am I not good enough?
Then it was, I didn't do drugs because I was into sports.
I thought, oh, marijuana's not so bad, I'll start a grow house.
And so I somehow, I don't know how I rented a house, got someone to help me, stole electricity from other places, created this grow house, and I started to make some money.
I couldn't manage it, and I said to – How old were you?
I was probably 19 or something, so old enough to know better.
Should have listened to Jack, but there were certain stages.
It's all up and downs, and people come into your life and out of your life, and you forget the advice.
It's like when Mike Tyson lost his mentor, he went off the rails.
Before that, he was focused, and I was having one of those moments.
I thought it was a great idea, finally making some money.
Oh, I could be, you know, I'm good at this, couldn't manage it.
And I told, I was very protective always of my younger brother and he wasn't doing anything.
And I thought, oh, you need a place to stay and do something, like look after the house, just stay in there.
And I didn't realize what a fucking dumb thing to be doing to allow him into something he wasn't ever going to do without me doing that.
that. And, you know, another season into it I saw my dad for the first time in a few years and I desperately wanted someone to stop me.
Like, I still always want someone to stop me.
Like that boundary that John had?
Yeah. Yeah. And I saw my dad and met him down the street for a coffee.
I told him what I was doing and I expected him to say, go to jail for this.
What are you doing?
And he said, said, can you cut me in?
How do we set it up?
And I'll grow it and you sell it.
And, you know, it just crushed me.
And I'm like, fuck, like this is the, well, he was the guy that taught me how to shoplift. And part of me would assume obviously wrongly, but part of me would assume that you would be happy that he approved of the thing you were doing.
Yeah, well, I may have if I wasn't fighting that I wanted to do better.
But I know a lot of people that I was friends with would say, oh, that's cool, you're like a mafia family now.
I wanted him to say don't, and then I realised at that point what I'd done to my brother, and I still don't forgive myself, and I'm still sorry to him.
I ended it right then.
The one time he was meant to take me fishing my whole life, we went uh i don't know what it was from a swimming club or something there was a father son weekend in a caravan park and he came i don't know how that happened that's probably 10 and um we're staying in a caravan park where you had to stay in a tent whoever wins the fishing competition gets to stay in the caravan so he said and some people kind of kind of funny but But he said, everyone went fishing and he said, let's go down to the trout farm and we'll buy the fish and then we'll rub them in the dirt and we'll win.
And we did it and I just wanted to go fishing.
Every time I did something successful, I'd tell him about it or I win the Archibald People's Choice, nothing.
Or he loved alphas.
I become ambassador for alpha.
I go and pick him up and I just felt like he was jealous.
In terms of Alpha Romeo, you became the ambassador for that car?
Oh, whoa. Yeah. So then I become an ambassador for Ducati and he had Ducati pitches, he couldn't afford one.
I'm an ambassador. I'm designing a bike for them, nothing.
And then I just start to get disappointed.
Is it hard not to blame yourself?
That's what happens.
You think like, why am I...
Is there something...
Why don't you like me?
I'm at his funeral years later and sitting there with my son, who we met once, you know, vow he didn't even meet.
Like, you've got these beautiful grandchildren, but he'll go and have a relationship with another family and be fatherly to them.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
So I'm watching this priest who was calling him Cloud.
His name's Claude. Knew nothing about him.
And they're talking about what a great person he is and he was humorous and, you know, believed in the church and all these different things, family man.
And I was just like, what, all the relatives I didn't know because he had split with all of them over the years and I couldn't take it.
And I got up out of my seat and went up, I grabbed the microphone off the priest and I said, uh, looked at the coffin.
I said, oh, dad, welcome to church. first time, you know, and I said, I don't know who you're, who you're talking about here.
And everyone's in shock.
And I said, you know, this is, this is not the guy that I knew.
I'm not going to say anything bad, but this is whoever we pretending is there, isn't the person you're talking about.
And I said, I always wanted to get to know my dad.
I wanted him to love me.
It didn't happen. And I still feel like I could have made it happen and I would have accepted it.
It still pains me that I didn't fix it.
And then I said, if there's one thing we can get out of it is that I ran out of time.
You guys don't talk to each other.
None of them talk to each other.
Don't run out of time.
Like go become friends or fucking forgive or move on or something.
And then I dropped the microphone.
No, I didn't. um but then you're right today that is an extraordinary story yeah like that's like i don't even know how it happened like it wasn't any plan nothing i thought about but then i was i hadn't cried uh you know cry pretty easily now but i hadn't cried through him being sick him passing and it was kind of like it's not that i definitely didn't want him to pass away.
I just, I don't know, nothing happened.
And then I picked up the coffin and I was just, I just couldn't stop.
Just like fucking, and I don't know, I still don't know why.
I can't explain it, but there was a lot to come out and then that was, that That was it, you know, and I never got to fix it.
But I just feel like, you know, all these things bottle up.
Thanks for sharing that.
That's an amazing story.
It sounds like it was just a huge release.
Yeah, and it wasn't a relief, but release it definitely was.
It kills me that I want to talk nicely, you know.
I don't want to be bitter.
and strangely, I don't know, my feelings were more powerful than my siblings about the whole situation, but I think I'm just a bit more honest about it.
Don't know how I got into this positive talk.
Let's all have a shot of vodka.
Fine, it's 12 .15. So I imagine then, like as a teenager and not being in school, that's when art sort of becomes like I mean it's natural for a teenager to think like well what am I going to do when I grow up essentially?
Well this is something I really want to discuss because art is the thing that I'm good at if art's really not a way out yet because I'm very lucky and I'm a percentage that is successful but but every kid starts off as an artist. We're all creative.
Everyone likes paint and drawing and you go into a classroom, it's everywhere and then it stops and, you know, my motivation's not making money.
You know, it's about Jamie Oliver -ing the art world, you know, like now kids want to be chefs, people want to cook da blah, blah, blah and before they didn't even know what it was.
Yeah. But I want to make art more accessible.
I want to make it somewhere where these indigenous kids that are talented and someone out, they, football's a way out, you know, boxing's a way out, and art should be a way out too.
One of the things that happened very early in your career, where you were probably seeing yourself as an artist, was your friendship with Heath Ledger.
And you painted his portrait, in fact, I might get you to tell the story, but the whole timing of it is um yeah really put you on the world stage we were planning on doing this portrait for a long time i met heath through some of his very close friends like we'd often get together and you know chat about doing the portrait someday just so happened that this one christmas he was going back to perth and i went there um and he was in a really vulnerable place so was i at the of time and you know you can know someone for 10 years and you have a moment where you become really close you know it's like
or it can happen on the first day you meet people and you know they're friends forever and we just had this night and conversations over this weekend where we just said all like everything that we could possibly imagine light stuff dark stuff childhood childhood, it was like a lifetime of therapy in one session and laughs and all sorts of things.
He wasn't drinking.
He was focused. All of this came into one painting.
You can only choose one image.
Well, I kind of cheated and put three of them, but it was very complicated.
And I arrived at his house and he sat down and it was seven in the morning.
He hadn't even put a top on.
He's in in his pajamas and we just followed him out like we hardly talked it was weird feeling he sat down grabbed his chair as he walked past the kitchen table sat it in in the backyard and i quickly got my camera out i knew something was happening and he sat there and for a long time just that gives me the goosebumps again and he just sat there and i felt i just felt him going somewhere and he closed his eyes for a long time.
Then he opened them and he's just staring and I started taking photos.
This lasted a long time.
Then he got up and he walked around himself a little bit, like analysing himself and looking.
And then he started screaming, like, you know, like you feel it coming from his gut and he's like bursting and spits coming out his mouth.
Then he breathes and he walks around again.
And then he faces around and he looks at himself and he starts laughing in his ear.
whispered something, can't hear it and then screaming it.
And then he was standing right in front of himself where I can't take a photo, he didn't care, like it was this, I wish I had filmed it because it was the most powerful show I've ever seen.
Oh my god. And then it ended and that was the painting, he did it but it was a collaboration building up and that's why.
And he knew, he was doing this for the purpose of you.
Yeah, he wanted to show, like he wanted to give it everything everything.
And that's the thing I'd like to show people.
And it doesn't, that's amazing.
You know, shooting Guy Pearce was a little bit like that too, but also shooting, you know, painting Julia Gillard, you know, there's all these different people like really giving something that comes through.
That's why a portrait's good, not because it's accurate.
Julia Gillard do a similar sort of thing.
Yeah, she did. Julia was incredible.
I'll skip back to Heath in a second.
But Julia Julia was so funny, you know, like she had such a great sense of humour.
Anyone that came into the studio, if she happened to be there, she'd talk to them and spend time and listen.
I don't know about politics at all.
I don't know. I'm sure people like, dislike for all sorts of different reasons.
I just knew her as Julia and she was so passionate about children, education and the future.
I just wish people had a scene, and this is what I get to see and this is why I think it's, you know, important, but I got to see a really genuine person who was judged by their looks by their nose by their their body she she let me paint her however she wanted she just said don't make me look like them and don't make it about fashion or you know when you say them do you mean they're all old white dudes with uh a suit on three quarter you know like yeah because this was the official portrait yeah yeah so she didn't see it until uh it was until we unveiled it and that's I love that trust back to
Heath. As he left, he was leaving right after this and he said, this painting is going to change our lives.
And it's interesting.
His dad recently told me that he definitely wasn't suicidal.
He wanted to live. He wanted the future.
He loves his daughter.
He always felt like it wasn't going to be a long life.
He was also very spiritual.
And I think this is another privilege of what he gave me, so many things, but I became very close with his dad who had lost a son and that's his dad.
I'm not taking that away, but he was very, he's still very generous to me, but he recently said he learned a lot from me as well.
And that was, you know, Heath made decisions that were very different to Kim's way of thinking, and he didn't understand them and they butted heads about you know like brokeback mountain you know not getting paid enough and different things and buying a house here or a restaurant supporting other artists he did so much of people don't know about and it was a bit frustrating for his dad and now his dad has become much more spiritual as well and um he said i just wish that he could see me now, I wish he knew that I now understand him.
And I think it's a, you know, there's a lesson there for people that while we're here and we're living, you know, I'm not always perfect at it either, but just let, you know, let people know and, or just be understanding.
He, so he said this, this painting is going to change our lives.
How soon after that did he pass?
So I, I went back and started doing the painting.
Oh, sorry, sorry. So he said that before you'd done the painting?
Yeah. So that was the, just as I left his house after taking, I did a little sketch for him, um, that looked very similar, like just a line drawing the concept.
And as I was getting in a car, he, he grabbed me and he said, this painting is going to change our lives.
I went, I felt really inspired, especially after watching that powerful thing.
And I never worked so hard in my life, 15 hours a day, not eating, painting.
I took the painting home so I wouldn't have to even leave to go to studio.
I was using my television screen in my apartment to look at and paint him and I had them next to each other as reference images and I finished the painting after three weeks.
I sent him an email of the artwork.
Don't know if he got it.
Turned the TV on in the morning and he died and it was just everywhere.
And I was like, it was, yeah, I couldn't even believe it.
Like I just didn't believe it.
That's surreal. Yeah, very surreal.
Everything about it's surreal.
Then all this press, there's newspapers and magazines and TV knocking on my door.
Next day it's on the cover of like Herald Sun and Age and all that stuff.
And, you know, you want your whole life for your art to be on the cover, and this bittersweet guilty feeling, but I hear Heath in my head saying, well, you fucking wanted to have, you want this, and I've given it to you.
Don't fuck it up. So I knew he would want it to be in the Archibald.
I knew he would want to make a statement.
So I then pack it up, catch a plane myself with the painting to Sydney to to put it in the Archibald.
People are like recognising me at the airport and the painting and the cab driver and it's like, oh, fuck, this is really weird. But my friends died.
So how did the painting get out there?
I had shared it with a few people.
One of them happened to be head of a news, blah, blah, blah, like just, hey, this is what I'm doing.
People knew I was doing the painting but it was out there.
But then I gave them obviously a better image and talked to them after getting the family's permission and they agreed that this is what Heath would like.
It gets into the Archibald.
There's a lunch the day before for all the artists to meet.
Edmund Capon, who was the head of the gallery at the time, takes me aside into his office, pours me a vodka.
Thank you, I like those.
We have a couple of shots and he says, congratulations, you're going to win the Archibald.
And I was like, oh, wow, fuck.
It gets even more painful and good at the same time.
I feel sick, but I feel like, you know, he's sitting next to me and we're doing this.
Then he said, make sure you're there in the morning because you have to be there.
You see where your painting is hanging as well, so my painting's hanging there, which that's where the winner will hang.
I saw them move the painting.
So I go to the art gallery in the morning and my painting's moved and then they do the announcement and Dale Catherine Barton wins, great painting amazing artist, I'm happy for her, but then I'm like and for the first time in Archibald history there's a runner -up prize and it's Vincent Fantuzzo.
And then they have all this you know all the cameras they still use me for all the press there's a dinner that you have in the evening for the winners i'm invited to that one first time someone extra is invited so thing is i did have a chip on my shoulder i was upset edmund said don't worry you'll get it next time mate anyway didn't but i don't want to sound like you know i'm not i am so grateful for what the archibald prize has given me because i there's other people say well you're lucky you you know and i am and and I appreciate it, and I think it's a great prize, gives all this stuff.
I was annoyed about it.
Just to step back a sec, because that's a real, like that whole experience is obviously the different, like extreme ends of the spectrum in terms of like highs and lows, you know, more or less.
Like that's a real mix of emotions.
emotions. He said it was because the sponsors felt uncomfortable or that they might be looked at as cashing in on his passing.
But I mean, yeah, I mean, it's, it's such a - I have no proof of this, by the way, this is just my conversations.
But you've like, you've just lost one of your very close friends and, and he, he is the painting that you're then taking to the Archibald and this is like, as an artist, you don't get many - This is the biggest moment of your life, possibly.
It changes lives to win the Archibald forever.
And so you're juggling these two things.
It's so complex. I just can't even imagine, like, how you manage those emotions.
Yeah, my head's blowing up.
And then I win the People's Choice by quite a bit, I think, and that was Heath and me and the circumstances, and I get that.
that, but you know, that was a massive deal.
So then I go back to Heath's family and spent a lot of time with Sally and I wanted to give the painting to Sally.
And she said, I feel guilty having the painting.
I want people to have to, I want to share the painting with people and it to be somewhere where someone can go, people that appreciate him can go, you know, they're not They're not going to a grave. They're going to a piece of art in the gallery, and that's beautiful.
So we together donated the painting to New South Wales Art Gallery.
Annoyingly, the painting has never been hung.
It's in the basement of the art gallery.
I appreciate the gallery, but can you either give it back to them or hang it?
I also understand a gallery has thousands and thousands of pictures and they can't show them all.
I understand all that.
That's fine. I'll buy it back from you there's a new director at the art gallery if you're listening um like let's make a deal I'll give you a I'll give you Asher and you give me Heath at the moment she's staring at me all the time um in that process are you able to with all that stuff going on were you then or have you you since been able to like properly grieve losing such a special person in your life yeah i i have because i often like here i have a tattoo here that heath had and that reminds me every day to be grateful to be all the things that he was passionate about um and you know more
gifts just keep coming you know he sisters my friend and he's his parents have been so so nice to me.
I feel like I have, you know, they're my family, but you know, he, Kim's not a father.
He's not a brother.
He's not a friend. He's just something else.
You know, like it's, I've, I just feel like we've both learned so much from each other.
I can call him to, you know, I had a divorce and he was so diplomatic and made me see sense, you know, and I had other, So he gave me advice financially, and sorry I didn't listen.
So Heath's death, I wondered if it brought up anything for you around your own mortality.
I know as a child you wrote a suicide note that no one picked up or no one found, which was almost the most heartbreaking part.
My handwriting may have had something to it.
The little guy, the little picture I drew would have made sense.
yeah so and then it was again when you're in your teens you you write another note because the world was too much for you on two occasions and it swallowed you up in a way that you couldn't handle anymore um i just wonder when you think about when you reflect on that person that child that teenager how you feel now where your life is now knowing the many experiences the many colorful experiences you've had in your life and the joys the ups the downs when you look back on on that child or that teenager who felt that way?
How do you feel? It's the reason that drives me to want to do the art thing, to want to talk about the book and to go places that are very difficult because I know that kid is still there and I wish I could help them.
You know how he's doing the mental health thing with the schools?
Oh, he is, yeah. Yeah.
So like that, say for, you know, the dental van comes to your school or my son, I didn't know, had a problem with his eyes, the eye van came and, you know, where's the learning diversity, you know, the dyslexia, ADHD, autism, all this, where's that van?
van and then if the van comes they can tell all the other kids that these kids aren't dumb you know they might be different but so is um this amazing sports person so is this musician so is this you know you're lucky you know you're all going to want you're all going to want to be like them because without those different people we wouldn't even have electricity you know like Yeah they're the people that ultimately innovate and change the world.
Yeah but then you get tested and one it's hard for the kids in the private school because of the embarrassment and the parents and all this stuff then the poor kid can't afford a test because a stupid test is like two thousand dollars and they just it's not going to happen and then if they did find out the initial feeling when you find out something like this is you feel like oh oh, okay, I have a disability, that sucks.
I can't become a pilot or I can't become a cop, which is all ridiculous.
And how do you support those kids afterwards?
So that's something in the future I'm also passionate about is maybe making some kind of change in the education department or something where you find these kids and you give them support and you let them know that they have power and maybe it's art.
Yeah. Well, I couldn't agree more.
As I mentioned before the interview, one of our kids has been diagnosed with, it feels like everything under the sun, and has gone from an educational setting that they would lie in bed at night and tell us that they were stupid.
It was heartbreaking as a six -year -old.
And now we are at a different educational setting where metaphorically the van has arrived and I listen to them tell my dad with great pride that they're autistic the other day.
Yeah. See, this breaks my heart.
This just fucking kills me that these kids lying in bed could, you know, they hate themselves, you know.
The feeling of thinking you're stupid and you can never be like anyone else is there's some very incredible autistic people like game changers, the most honest and interesting people, truthful and passionate and they feel everything and show everything.
Everything, and, you know, and there's all different, like dyslexia and all that.
There's so many different, it's so broad, you know, and ADHD is a problem because a lot of people say, oh, everyone has ADHD, I have ADHD.
When you got it, you really know, you know, and being a parent of someone that ticked all the boxes, you know how I said I failed everything my whole life?
The only time I got full marks is when I got tested.
hundred percent and guess what else i got anyway these you know this is this is good i always tell people congratulations because you got one of the magical ones it's true it's like um you know we got to support these people because they're what makes the world interesting and better and you know just to change um tact a little bit earlier we discussed the sexual abuse I wondered what it was like telling your wife Asha about that for the first time that must have been an incredibly difficult moment what was that like, how did that come about?
It's one of those things where I made a decision when I was young to just keep this to myself because I didn't want to be defined by it I still don't want to be defined by it It's like someone in the public eye gets cancer and all of a sudden they have to be a face for cancer or something or it could be whatever happens.
And I had this incredible ghostwriter that I was working with.
It was therapy. I was getting – the good thing about it is having therapy every day, but I was getting paid for it, which was a bonus because it would have cost a fortune.
With my life, it would have cost a fortune.
Anyway, Craig Henderson, incredible guy.
He's so different to me, whole different life.
And he just listened without judgment.
And I felt that I didn't have judgment.
So I told him all the stuff that we even didn't put in the book.
And I felt so trusted there that I could speak openly.
And it just came out one day and i was so shocked even that it came out and it had a very strong impact on him as well and i went home that night and i was just i looked like i'd been hit by a truck never spoken in my life and now i had and i just asked me what had happened and then i i think once i said at once It was very difficult, but I said it again, and she cared so much, and I think it hit her even more than it was hitting me.
And I think it just made her, again, it brought us a lot closer, and I think it made her very angry, and it also made her understand a lot about me.
Like I'm, you know, I don't think I'm difficult to live with, but I am very passionate and I'm very protective of our kids and, you know, I fight hard for them and I think that's how it came about.
Yeah. And then I wasn't sure if I was, I told Craig, but I wasn't sure if we were going to keep it in the book Yeah.
And we discussed it a lot.
And I think that's why, you know, I just feel it's important to, you know, just, yeah, maybe like it has opened the doors for people to feel like, you know, if you're constantly sweeping things under the, just not being true to yourself, There's the truth part is that kind of thing.
Yeah, I think one of the absolute tragedies of something like that, I think sexual abuse is that I can't help but think of how alone this young child is when it happens.
And then it forces people to carry it alone for the rest of their lives often.
People blame themselves in all sorts of ways.
Loneliness continues.
And, you know, if you don't talk about it, then you have a fucked up time for the rest of your life.
No one understands the chaos going on in your head in a certain moment.
And that's any type of abuse, you know, and it can be verbal abuse, emotional abuse, control.
There's a lot of different ways to abuse someone.
And I think if you don't talk about it, and it doesn't have to be with a therapist, this could be with one of your mates.
You don't have to tell the whole world like I did.
I think you just have to tell someone, especially the people close to you so they get you.
They don't have to help you.
They just have to understand.
Well, I think far from being defined by it, I think it's just a gift that you've given to a lot of people.
Yeah. Your passion for people is just off the charts.
I was wondering how you navigated becoming a father given your own experience of uh from i hope you don't mind me saying but an abusive father and uh and then collecting and maybe not collecting but finding father figures along the way how did you navigate becoming a father and then also what what do you want for your kids out of you um i am collecting and if there's any that want to leave me an inheritance i'm open to too, because I don't have one of those.
I was really nervous, so nervous.
I remember calling up Matt Moran like, oh, fuck, Matt, what am I going to do?
Matt Moran, for those who don't know, he's the famous chef and your very good friend.
So I was kind of hoping for a girl because I thought, how am I going to be a role model to a boy?
I mean, I absolutely love my boys.
You know, I was so nervous and I'm still nervous if I'm doing the right job.
I don't know if If sometimes I'm too friendly, you know, like not a dad, do I set enough boundaries?
Because I want my kids to love me.
I don't want to be strict.
I can say I've never had to raise my voice to my kids.
Definitely not my hand.
I don't, you know, we discuss things and we talk about things.
And I really believe in the cycle ending.
To me, success is that my adult children will say they love me.
like I I don't care about anything else like a I just I still don't know how to do it to be honest to answer your question one thing I do know is I want them to know they can tell me everything and I'm always on their side and then we find a solution beautiful so as a kid as you're trying to make sense of the world around you you're probably becoming vastly aware that um probably when you start school and you compare yourself to other kids that words um reading or writing isn't coming easily to you.
You didn't know what dyslexia was obviously, but you realised you were different.
I didn't know for a long time.
It might have helped how I became good at drawing and painting because I had to start recognising things as shapes and I became quite good at it.
So I can't read out loud, but if I get a text, I just look at the whole thing as a paragraph and I know what it says.
It's very strange. I can read very fast. Oh, really?
Yeah, but not word for word, word, but I know exactly, that's John.
And he said he's going to be late for the day.
And I just looked at it as a picture.
So that's cool. Replying to it, I use voice to text.
But as a kid, I had to go for my learner's permit four times, five times maybe, until I figured out you could go with a friend and I can cheat off them.
And you just become a liar.
And so now you're stupid and you're a liar and you're a fake.
And then you develop develop imposter syndrome for your whole life, you know, it's now I think it's different and there's a reason why the bus has to come to the school because it's devastatingly lonely and embarrassing.
You know, it was then.
I think it can be different now because kids can say, well, I can't read or write or if that's their weakness, might be mask would be memory.
But if you need to get that chair through that door and you think it doesn't fit, I know exactly how it's gonna fit you know there's you can solve problems and you can in an emergency i'm calm you know there's different things you can do that other people can't yeah but at the time i had no idea i just thought until uni when i had to face but i just thought it's stupid yeah um i i was wondering if i could ask you about asha and meeting asha because i know with my partner jam she like being She's put up with a lot.
But being with her, she's sort of, I guess, like unlocked certain things, like made me realise things about myself that I didn't realise about myself in a really positive way.
And I think, I mean, it's sort of, it sounds, I've never said it in this way, but I think seeing her love me in the way that she does has sort of helped helped me love myself more.
He just stole my words, Asha.
I was about to say the same thing.
It's really true. I've never had anyone care for me like Asha cares and care for the boys.
I've never had that level of caring and love in my life.
She's the opposite to me in a lot of ways because she has a different way of looking after us, all the things that I can't do.
And it's just worked out that way.
But, you know, she's got my back and she's also protective.
And sometimes she says, well, that's just not fair.
And no one said that for me before.
Like if she thinks someone's done wrong by me or even growing up and she'll say, like you were saying, who was looking out?
I have someone looking out for me now.
and I look out for her too and that's a good feeling and it's nice to feel protected.
I think that's the thing kids want.
That's another thing.
I want my kids to know they're protected, you know, they have, I have their back and they have mine forever.
That's, nothing can change that for me.
Can you quickly just retell the story of how you met?
Because I loved reading that part of the book.
I was doing, I did 30 Portraits in New York and in Hong Kong and the idea was, was I meet, say, you and you suggest someone else and they suggest someone else and each day and you end up meeting like a fascinating, diverse group of people and I did it in Australia but it was more about can you tell me someone that inspires you.
Matt Moran suggested Asha.
I had no idea who Asha was.
She didn't know who I was.
It almost didn't happen because I'm disorganised.
I was single fathering and, you know, I still can't even organise my own lunch. I was late.
She wasn't going to turn up.
Her agent, who is also a good friend of ours now, forced her to go.
And I remember I was – Was there any sense from Matt Moran of potentially a set up?
Well, it's a weird thing because he made out, oh, you've got to meet her.
She's super talented and she's beautiful and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I was like, oh, thanks, Matt.
This is good. But then he also said to Asher, be careful of him.
Wow. I'm like, what the fuck is that?
Anyway, thanks, Matt, godfather of my children.
You lose, I win. But I wasn't thinking about that.
I was thinking about, did I forget to pack Luca's lunch?
And then my studio was a mess and I threw everything in two bins and I'm wheeling them out and I look like shit.
and I saw her. I literally dropped the bins and she slept with me that night.
No, she said, don't say that joke because it's not true and it could be cut into her.
But we just, again, that was another time I painted like a demon because I wanted to impress her so badly.
I think I did the painting in two hours.
I was like a robot.
Worked, sucked in. So you spend that time with her and your painting with her in the room, I'm assuming?
No, I did prolong the period of hanging out and it's really weird because I have our first meeting all on video and camera.
Wow. And I remember that whole series, I was asking people what inspires them and kind of talking about them and I just remember just staring at her going, just this engagement that I'd never felt before and we were together since then.
That was it. And she's amazing, and I feel very lucky.
She stepped into being a stepmother and all sorts of things, you know, entertaining but complicated.
And so was she. And, you know, interestingly, she grew up Bayside and very different experience, but we're so like -minded.
And that also helped me, you know, I grew up, and it was them and us all the time.
I'm rich, poor, and it doesn't matter where you grow up or where you're from or what you believe.
You can be so like -minded and be in love and all those things.
That was a cool learning.
Also, she's increased my vocabulary by correcting me often and giving me new words.
Sounds fine. I imagine she does help quite a lot with your dyslexia because I know that she helps with like this general admin of running your empire.
She's fired herself several times as my PA.
But this is a normal day for me.
So I am flying to Sydney to do something for the night.
I drive myself to the airport, get on the plane, do my thing in Sydney, drive back, forget I parked the car in the airport, catch an Uber home, realize my car's not in the driveway, go back to the airport, Port, realised my keys are in Sydney in a jacket I left there.
And, you know, this kind of stuff is daily.
I forget everyone's name.
I know everyone says this, but it's a next level of not knowing.
I don't know the alphabet, don't know the months of the year, don't know my kids' dates of birth, don't know half my relatives' names.
I miss, you know, everything.
I'm always like, I just completely forget.
And people think you're absent -minded and And I'm the opposite.
It kills me. I feel so embarrassed and so disappointed with myself.
This is a hard thing daily to deal with.
And I feel like I offend people.
And I wrote my book and I forgot to mention some of my good mates in the book.
Not because they weren't such a big part of my life.
And then they read the book and I could see that I hurt their feelings.
And that hurt me so bad because they're so important.
And this is, I know everyone says, oh, you can't include everyone.
No, this is just like, I went from that story to that story and there's stuff I wanted to talk about today and I've forgotten about it.
And, you know, it just kills me.
It's the one thing that I hate to disappoint people I care about and for the people that have the same condition as me, for the people around them, it's almost like we need a T -shirt, like I'm sorry, I'm going to forget shit.
shit. But I feel for the partners, but even more so for those people, because once I felt stupid, now I feel like I'm letting people down.
That's something that's hard to deal with.
Is it hard to allow yourself some compassion there?
Because I have a lot of good in my life, I feel like I can't create one more thing with an excuse useful why I'm doing it people say get a diary you forget the diary put your keys in one place every day forgot that yeah um get a apple blah blah blah and then a battery goes flat because you forget to like it just doesn't stop like it's very it's very difficult but I would say it's you know at least it's entertaining somewhat you know it is it's it's fun it reminds me of like so my My partner, Jam, she has ADHD and she lives, phone -wise, she lives on 3%.
It's like as far as battery goes.
Why is it? Phone's about to die all the time.
And so years ago, early days before we knew she had ADHD.
But I noticed this.
And so as a present, I got her an extra phone battery.
She lost that and forgot to charge it.
Forgot to charge that.
And so I was like, got it for her.
I said, oh, your phone's run out, just use the thing.
She's like, well, I haven't charged that either.
that so it's like oh shit what do we do and it's so hard because it comes so naturally to you and to ash is so organized another thing for parents or partners with someone that's near it's fucking hard work as well is don't try and improve what they're never going to be good at because that crushes their confidence especially kids like if it's writing that's a problem they won't ever be good at that doesn't mean they can't write a book i did you just have to find a different way take the pressure off and find the good stuff.
You know, if it's sports, let them concentrate on sport.
You know, if it's music, throw the music.
You only have to be good at a couple of things in life and people forgive you for the rest. Good advice.
Yeah. Well, it's been so, an extraordinary, it feels like an extraordinary privilege to have spent time with you.
Same, yeah. You're like such a, just feel, as we were half of this conversation, I found myself just thinking, I cannot believe we get to speak to someone like this.
Yeah, you are. See, the Asher, I'm special.
A lot of messages to Asher.
No, no. Yeah, yeah.
I just like to get her like, I like, she'll say, what did you do?
And that's just fun.
I like to tease a little.
I like to tease a lot, actually.
I put, because I had to do lunches to, you know, I don't normally do lunches for school.
And one, I forgot to lunch at home and Val called me and I had to bring the lunch in just before recess.
He's like, Dad, I see the school's number.
I thought he's broken his head.
He's just saying, you forgot lunch and brain food.
That's the recess. And I'd put as a joke, I'd put a raw onion in his fruit box.
I think that's what Tony Abbott does for his kids.
And then I brought the lunch in and I noticed the woman at reception see the onion through the thing and I forgot.
I'm like, that's just a joke.
I know there's an onion in there.
that's why i have a lot of jokes well it has been an absolute honor and i i felt this collective love for you the second we met i really felt that so i feel like whilst it's amazing that ashton you found love the first time we've also fallen in love with you as well so you know a few beers who knows see what happens yeah um i've i feel so happy being here if you ever want to um podcast we don't even have to record it just hang it up that sounds great Vincent thank you for your time today it's been truly incredible there's no podcasters at boxing so you're all welcome I'll fight you for it there's
no fighting either I messed up the ending ok thank you thank you keep on Well, huge thank you to Vincent Fantuzzo.
What a lovely man. Such an experience.
Those stories were like, obviously, never heard anything like it.
Yeah. I think what I would like to do at some point is get a list of all the guests we've ever had and just circle those who are neurodiverse.
There's been, I feel like neurodiverse people really do some pretty extraordinary stuff.
I think we've had so many neurodiverse people on here who just absolutely, I find so inspiring and he is absolutely one of them.
Yeah. Oh, we desperately need neurodiverse people in the world.
They're brilliant. Yeah.
He was so captivating as a person to be around.
Like if you think about some of the people he's met, some of the people he's painted, I can just see, it just makes sense.
It's like, I can see you doing that job and you being, having this really unique and intimate intimate relationship with the people that you paint.
Just so I've never met anyone like him.
Yeah, he's magnetic.
Yeah. Yeah. There is something I wanted to talk about off the back of it, which I think it is definitely a heavy topic, but I think one we should definitely be talking about right now.
He mentioned twice throughout that episode, once as a boy and once as a teenager, writing a suicide note.
and that topic of suicide has just come up quite a bit this year.
The thing that I speak of here is the really tragic passings of both the Selwood twins and Troy Selwood and then I think it was in May his twin brother a couple of months later, Adam Selwood as well.
And it's just I actually remember looking at the photo of the Selwood family at Troy's funeral.
And I remember just looking at Adam and thinking, I can't even begin to imagine what he is going through.
I mean, the whole family, for some reason I was quite captivated by his twin.
And then to have this happen a few months ago, it's just so devastating.
And I just wanted to talk a bit about that a lot of people reach out to me around that time asking what do you think we should be doing or what should men be doing?
And what I've heard a lot of, I don't disagree with, I've had a lot of people saying if something doesn't feel right, go and see a doctor, go and see a GP about going to see a psychologist. And I don't disagree with that, but I do feel like it's just a stretch. It's a really big stretch for people.
And I'm speaking about men here because we had Vincent and also the Selwood twins.
I can also add some weight to that.
I've been recently doing some work with a group called Breakthrough in South Australia who are very much in this space.
and I was reading stats that it's the number one cause of death for people between age 25 and 44 in Australia and there are nine people a day in Australia who die of suicide and seven out of those nine are men.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just an awful statistic and this is just some things I think for any men listening or anyone listening to this who is having this type of thoughts, it's just some things that I think you might be able to do which aren't as hard as calling up and calling a doctor and sitting down with someone you don't know or your local GP who you do know and saying things aren't right and it's their psychologist. I just want to talk about the power of call it whatever you want, writing stuff down, like journaling I'm probably talking about here.
But even just getting a pen and paper and writing down what's in your head and getting it out of your head, I feel like that is the first step towards some type of heading in the right direction.
I feel like you can grab a notepad, just a blank piece of paper, a journal, whatever you want, and just write down what you're thinking, write down how you feel.
And no one has to see this.
This is just getting it out of your head onto paper.
It gives you a little bit of separation.
It makes you feel like it's not totally, you can observe it a little bit more if that makes sense rather than this is who I am.
But write it down And once you've written it down Then have a think to yourself Who is someone that I love And I trust that I could maybe share My thoughts and feelings with I'll give the example of It's a very poignant example But it's an AFL footballer Who I did a lot of work with a few years ago And I have permission to share this story Charlie Dixon, as some of you might remember Who played football for Port Adelaide Football Club One of the biggest and scariest looking men In the AFL and I remember I would fly across to Adelaide a fair bit to work at the Port Adelaide Football Club and Charlie
and I would catch up a lot and he was dealing with a really severe depression.
Like we were talking, he would sit in the car before training and just cry and then he would go to training and no one would know and then he'd get back in the car and he'd cry again.
And I remember saying to him once over coffee, so who are you confiding in here?
Which of your friends do you confide in?
He said, I haven't told anyone.
anyone? And I said, do you mind me asking why not?
And he said, well, my job is to be like very tough and very hard, so I don't want to show them that weakness.
And I said, if one of your teammates here said to you, I'm struggling with depression, would you think that's weak?
And he said, I would think it's the very opposite.
And he then committed soon after that to write a letter to his teammates to tell them about his depression and what what he was going through, but also to thank them for the role they have played in getting him through his darkest days.
And I was in the room when he read that out.
It was about, it took him about six months, but six months later I was in the room when he read it out.
And the response from that grew.
I still have never seen anything like it.
It was like, there was, the cupboard booked a very small room for this thing to happen, so it was very tight quarters, but he was engulfed by 45 men all hugging him at the end.
And he said to me weeks later, he said, that was the start of my recovery.
That's when I started to recover.
When I shared what was happening in my head with the people that love me, that's when my journey to recovery started.
And so I'm not saying to anyone out there who's struggling, find a group of 45 men and stand up in front of them and read it out.
But it did start for Charlie with getting it out of his head.
That's where it started.
and getting it onto paper, and then the next step was who's someone that I can share it with.
It turned out Charlie's blessed he's in a situation with 45 workmates who all love him.
And the other thing that happens there, when you do openly send a message to the world that you are not coping like Charlie did, the world responds that and the world will wrap its arm around you and will support you and give the support you need.
And that's exactly what I saw happen to Charlie.
and um yeah i just it to me it started getting it out of your head onto paper it's oh that's i love that story so much it's because you really because even josh like those stats you said before it makes you realize that because of course we all think not always but often we think we're the only ones struggling and you look around at everyone else at work or at school or whatever and you think, well, everyone else seems like they've got their shit together and I feel like I'm the only one so I don't want to be the odd one out and I don't want to be judged.
But based off those stats, particularly with men, you can almost assume that someone else is struggling, maybe not to the same extent but maybe more.
But you're definitely not alone and those stats kind of suggest that that's probably always true.
yeah and it's only when you voice it and you say something then it gives other people the opportunity to then say oh yeah i i also i'm the same having that kind of courage to be the first one like to be the charlie dixon of the group that that takes courage but god the what what can happen afterwards is life -changing yeah i think it's also important to acknowledge at least I know this for me personally, when I've been not doing very well, I kind of don't want to tell people, it's very isolating and you kind of, I think Ems talked about this and we can put a link to the episode in which she does
talk about this in the show notes, but how you want to withdraw from society, withdraw from talking to people in general.
So I totally understand that how hard it can be to share this with anyone.
That's why I think writing is such a great idea to be writing it down because that's something you can do while you're withdrawn and then maybe that will spark the idea or the motivation to perhaps share it.
But when I've been going through stuff in the past that's really hard, I've felt – and in a low mood to the point of quite seriously low mood – I've felt the need to regress and pull away from people and not speak to them.
but if i think of all the things i've done to get out of that situation having a genuine connection with another human being even if it's not it doesn't have to be sitting down and talking through all the things you've gone through but and what you're thinking because your friend is probably not qualified to have that discussion but just acknowledging what you're going through and then being able to connect with that person on a level that you don't feel like you're hiding anymore for me has is the single most important thing to turn start turning things around um and I just think that we I guess
I just want people listening to know that like the dark and worst time that you're going through this awful feeling doesn't have to define you like there's so much hope there that can come from just a very simple connection with another person and it's not going to be fixed in the first conversation but it could be the first step to making you thrive in life again.
Well said. Anyway, I'm so grateful for Vincent for sharing those stories because I'm sure it wasn't easy but he did it and I feel like it's going to help a lot of people.
Absolutely. Yeah. Great.
Well, thank you, Vincent.
Good to see you guys.
Yeah. Absolutely. See you next time.
See you next time. On The Imperfects.
Remember all the episodes we'll link to.
Yes. yeah yeah it's a fantastic podcast yeah wonderful yeah they're all 200 there's not a dud there is a couple I disagree I disagree I disagree I'm going all in on 100 % perfection ironically see you guys thanks everyone wait for the morning you set the tone and I'll be all right hue it's ryan i'm just lying in bed and i've just realized that you've never painted my portrait is that weird like i'm literally looking around at all the walls in my room right now and there's not one single portrait of me painted by you i don't know i just thought you would have asked me by now if if that i don't know
have you has it been on your mind have you thought about painting my portrait at all.
I'd just be interested.
Let me know. Yeah, it's Ryan Shelton from the podcast, obviously.
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each week we'll send you one vulnerable question inspired by the current episode to help you unpack your own imperfect life subscribe at www .theimperfects .com .au the imperfects is hosted and produced by hugh van cuylenberg ryan shelton and josh van cuylenberg our executive producer is bridget northeast assistant producer bella northeast this episode is edited by george martin with music from no mono the imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice treatment or assessment.
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