You know what I'm a victim of? Misinformation on the internet.
Whoa, do I love it. Ooh, I love it. A headline from a random... non-reputable source that says turmeric will cure your depression.
Okay, I'm clicking. Okay, I'm ordering turmeric on Amazon.
I am... Not safe from this side of the internet.
It's not even like this side of the internet.
The internet is filled with truth, lies, and everything in between.
There's always a lot of hearsay going on, okay?
There's just a whole lot of hearsay on the internet.
And none of us are safe from it. But today I have a treat for all of us.
Wendy Zuckerman. a science journalist. for over a decade, reporting on everything from octopus intelligence... to superbugs, to ozempic, Think of a topic.
Wendy has probably read... 15 studies about it.
She started her career as the Australian... corresponded for New Scientist magazine and then went to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.
And in 2015, Wendy started to notice healthcare trends. that were very misinformed.
And that's when she came up with the concept for her podcast, science versus where she basically takes a topic and lays all the science out on the table.
Because... Again, there's just a whole lot of hearsay all the time.
We're just going to answer some questions. that I have today because she's sort of like a walking scientific journal.
So sit back, relax, and enjoy Miss Wendy.
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Things people love. Were you a science kid in school?
Because I was. Oh, I was not. Really? I mean, you know how you backpedal your life story and you're like, I was meant to be a science journalist.
And there is, like I did find, because now I live in Melbourne, like back in my hometown and I did find a book that I wrote when I was like in year two or something that was like, how plaque forms.
Oh. And it was like basically what I'm doing now.
Like it was like, you know. The little bacteria live on your teeth.
And I was like, look, I was destined to be... But the truth is, I...
I wasn't really that interested in sides at all.
I guess I was like more of a drama kid. That's so funny.
So you were not into science, but were you, like, naturally maybe curious?
Not even... I mean, I... So like finished high school and was like, I get, you know, like, I don't want to get a job yet.
So I, you know, I got to go to college. and then was like curing cancer is a thing that like That seems great in the world.
So that's why I studied. I studied biomedical science.
And it was just... And then it was really bad.
And... a nerd in that I want to get good grades.
So I was studying really hard. just wrote learning stuff, didn't really understand anything.
In, like, my second year of uni... I had the Bunsen burn.
I was terrible in lab. Yeah. Bunsen burner on too high and melted some equipment.
It was so bad that I almost got kicked out of uni.
Wow. because they were like, you must be incompetent.
No, they didn't believe I could be. So they were like, you must be a pyromaniac.
What? What? And I managed to convince him.
I was like, no, I didn't do it on purpose.
I swear. Whoa. I just did it anyway. And then I walked out of that meeting and was like, okay, clearly I'm not going to be a scientist.
Okay. But then somewhere along the way, I realized that what I love is...
Science stories is like there's so much like fun stories of discovery to be found in science.
It's like how we know how the world works is how we know like... why you should go on one diet and not the other.
Yes. Like why, whether... jumping into like ice water makes you feel better like it's yes it's how we know anything And so that was fun.
That was fun to like talk to scientists. and explain things.
And I think because I was so bad at it. It helps me explain because nothing's, it wasn't intuitive when I was starting out, you know?
Yes. If we say complicated science things, then I'd be like, I don't understand.
Please say it again. See, that is such a perfect... niche for you it's like you are curious about all of it you love it your job is then translating it into human.
Yeah. it's a totally different skill to translate it to human, and that's kind of what you do.
And I think, like, because I had these, like, my parents, who were both academics, funnily enough.
So I guess that must have been another... another thing in the mix.
They always telling me like, if you don't understand something, just like ask more questions.
Don't ever feel stupid for not understanding something.
It's, you know, it... If someone's trying to teach you something and you don't understand it, you just keep asking questions.
I think that really helps. It's like if a scientist is just using these complicated words.
I mean, by now I've been in the game for so long. long yeah I can speak the language yes but when I was starting out there was just a lot of Okay, so what was that?
What do you mean? Yes. Any analogies you can help me out with?
Yes. So it's been fun to marry the two worlds, yeah.
Now, your specialty is translating... things to human and sort of sorting through all the different sort of scientific misconceptions.
I think because the scientific language is so complex, it can be misunderstood. so easily, which is why your voice is so but also so exciting for people because it's like...
Now I get it. Now I get it. I understand.
Because it's like... There's always so many conflicting ideas and ultimately, you know, I think science is relevant for everybody because it's like we all use it to figure out how to have a better life it's so important but if you google something you're gonna find 90 different results Yes, there's so much garbage.
And what's funny is like when I started Science Versus, The world of, like, bullshit online was just... just starting.
I mean, I guess that's what I was seeing.
And I was like, oh, I should make a podcast where we're like. looking at things in the zeitgeist and really examining them and like really, you know, reading the scientific papers because we don't want to be regurgitating more of the misinformation.
Like, we're down there reading the scientific papers, then translating them.
Yep. But when I started Science Versus, I was like, we've got four seasons in us.
You know, like once we tackle... like yes climate change exists you know yes vaccines like you know, are good for you and we need to be taking them despite, you know, minor risks here and there. you hit the top.
I was like, all right, all right, this show is going to be done.
Right. Right. But the internet has just kept minting bullshit.
Like it's like as if it was just coming for me.
No, it's never ending. It's never, like more and more diets every year.
There's fasting, there's keto. There was now, like, last season I did, like, seed oils.
I was like, where did seed... I'm like, now we're not allowed to eat seed oil.
What? Where did this come from? And I was like, thank you.
No, it's amazing. The thing is that humans love, I think humans love, and you've probably noticed this over the years, We like to find a band-aid.
We want to find a band-aid for things. We want to find an explanation.
And honestly, I'm somebody who is somewhat... I'd like to say that I'm not, but I am... somewhat... We all are susceptible to these...
You know, big claims. Well, we want an answer.
When something's wrong with our health, when we know we're not... functioning in the way that we used to like whether like our brains feeling foggy or like tummy's not feeling right.
We're like, what could it be? What could it be?
And you know, Going to doctors, like, I'm all about the, like, healthcare system and go to your doctor.
But like they can be assholes and they cannot listen to you.
Totally. at the same time as we're seeing this sort of rise of misinformation online.
There's also a greater appreciation that like, yeah, you go to your doctor if you don't have a GP that you like, they might just be like, it's all in your head.
Live with it. Is it really that bad? Like take some medication that has nasty side effects.
And so- It doesn't surprise me that people have been going online, finding, like, influences, like, people that they – like giving them other solutions and then running with that.
So I totally get the situation that we're in, but it just does mean that I think a lot of vulnerable people who are searching for solutions, who don't have like the doctor, the medical care that they need.
I think they are getting trapped in this world where they're like buying supplements they don't need going on diets they don't need to go on like and that And so that's why it feels good to make the show to be like, well, look, here's what might be going on.
Here's what... Maybe you don't need to be buying this.
Maybe jumping in ice cold water will be helpful, you know?
Yep. So I get it. So I think like. As I've been making the show, I've been way more empathetic to the Uh, to all of us who would, who are just, you know, I think maybe when I was starting, I came in from like a real like on high of like.
I'll read the science and tell you what the answer is.
But now I'm like, I get it. It's really, really hot out there.
And so we're just like trying to put good information out there.
What do you think is the reason for so much misinformation?
When I think about it, one reason could be, like, there's a company benefiting from misinformation, possibly.
Like, that's maybe one source or a person a person or a person do you think it's more nowadays influencers and sort of uneducated individuals or like you know individuals who lack the credential to be spreading information do you think it's Those sort of people who kind of want to provide an answer to maybe build a following and so people will sort of trust them and look to them for answers.
Or do you think it's more like corporations that are interested in spreading misinformation?
Or do you think it's a combination? Oh, interesting.
The ones that... like that really pissed me off.
Like I don't, I don't know when we look at the big problem of misinformation online.
Like, generally, I think it's individuals.
Like, corporations have all... We always know, like we know capitalism exists. they're there to spread a message of propaganda.
I feel like people know, people have in their heads.
Like if you see a... a shell ad for like, we're interested in renewables.
Everyone's head is like, fuck off now. Like, you know, everyone's like, I don't, it's like, okay.
Yeah. Thank you. for your contribution to climate change.
Totally. Appreciate it. I understand the...
We understand the language. We, like, see through maybe a corporation.
Exactly. But we... individuals, that's where I see people really getting sucked in.
And, you know, sometimes you have these like really, I don't want to name any names, but, you know, in the wellness influencer sector, there are these There are some really big names who kind of use what I see is they use our mistrust of corporations. yes to then like twist things on their head so a story that I hear over and over again is, like, you can't trust Big Pharma. can't even trust science they're all in it for the money instead what you need are natural supplements and guess who sells them Me.
And guess who has a code. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you're like. And they're like, follow the money, man.
Follow the money. You can't trust Pharma.
And it's like, I'll follow the money right to your damn... pocket yeah and it's just this story and I'm like how are people getting sucked into this but yeah But I know why it's this thing that like sometimes science calls the guru effect. where you have these group, they have this like, which you've talked about on this show, this parasocial relationship where they feel like, you know, oh, it's my friend, I can trust them.
And then all of a sudden you're buying these supplements when it's like these are unproven supplements.
You are putting money right into their pockets and at the same time shitting on science.
I'm like, excuse me. Well, that's the thing that's so annoying about it, I think, too, especially, is the blatant and so obvious hypocrisy.
Yes. there it's like babe you're you know it's it's it's unbelievable but I also it's such a perfect business model, despite it being evil, it's genius because it's the perfect manipulation because it's playing into like Well, I'm a small business and I'm an individual and I've healed my issues through this podcast. you know, turmeric supplement.
Yeah. If you say like, oh, you know, you can cure this, this and that using this, you know, supplement that obviously doesn't work.
There's no science to show. that it works.
It's potentially very dangerous, particularly if you're not saying things like... you need to make sure you take like traditional, like conventional medicines too.
You know, you can... Yeah, so that really pisses me off.
And then the other thing that I see a lot of...
Because you were sort of mentioning like, is it influencers who maybe are uneducated?
But actually, I see a lot of people who have like...
MD, wearing their scrubs out there on TikTok. talking bullshit.
And I'm like, and that really pisses me off because they're clearly using... their healthcare education, like whether it's their RNs or whatever it is, they're using that and they know they're using that to get... to get people to think, oh, I can trust them.
They've got their scrubs on. They probably came out from seeing a patient or something.
Yeah. you're wearing your scrubs or you're like a doctor, you know, you need to be really careful about your facts.
And so often I'm like, Because part of the show is, like, looking for, like, what's the internet saying about a particular thing?
And I'll see these, like, doctors... saying stuff and then we fact check it with experts in the field and I'm reading the papers and I'm like, that's not, that's not real.
So this is like what we're fighting against.
I'm like, if you are about to go on a show like this with an audience, Yes.
Take some responsibility. Get your facts right.
So let's play devil's advocate then. Love it.
We're all human, right? Including the experts, including... the people writing the most advanced, the most modern, the most accurate scientific papers.
Yeah. Can we really trust anything for sure in your opinion no great it's a great question it's a great question so Here's my pitch for why I love science.
I do too, yes. And why I think we can trust science.
So at its best, science is just testing... all these theories we have, whatever it is, like will this skincare product reduce wrinkles?
Will ketamine cure depression? You know, like you can say that or even you can have had an amazing experience or you and your friends can have had amazing experiences.
Mm-hmm. And you can tell people about it.
But you'll never know, like, oh... Like, does this actually work or was it, you know...
I took ketamine. I felt great for a month or whatever.
Like, was it something else that happened that night?
Yeah. You know, were you actually moving to, like, was it starting to be a good place in your life and then you felt great?
Yeah. So the only way you could actually know, was it the ketamine that caused it and like that caused this benefit?
Let's stick with our ketamine example. Yep.
Like is to actually do a study where not only do you take like, let's say a hundred people.
Mm-hmm. who have depression and give some of them ketamine.
You also need to give some of them a placebo.
Because the placebo effect is so powerful.
So powerful. And, like, I know sometimes people hear that and they're like, oh, it's all in your head.
It's like... But no, it should be something that we can all harness.
Like it is wonderful that the placebo effect.
It's amazing. It's amazing. Like we can cure ourselves with our minds. to a certain extent for certain things, you know.
But it does mean that every like clinical trial worth its weight in anything has to have a placebo arm.
Because if you tell someone like, hey, I got a great new drug for you.
You want to try it? And like all of a sudden they feel better.
It's like, who knows if it was the placebo or ketamine.
Yes. So science is the way that we can do that, that we can find that out.
And then... through other kinds of studies that we can actually test the mechanism of how the hell ketamine might be having these effects.
Mm-hmm. But having said that, you can't trust a single study.
And that's what we've learned. And that's, I think, what we keep getting caught up with, like the I don't like saying like the media because I am the media.
But the media will often present a single study. and be, you know, sticking with the ketamine example. be like ketamine now cures depression or whatever because there was one study that that maybe gave people ketamine and then checked them the next day.
And was like, oh my God, their depression scores, which has happened.
There have been studies like this where they get people with symptoms. serious, nasty depression, you know, maybe having suicidal thoughts, really bad place, give them ketamine.
Mm-hmm. And a bunch of them the next day, they're like, they don't even have depression.
And there have been studies like that. And then if you report that, you're like, oh my gosh.
Well, this is the cure. This is the cure.
Right. And I understand that you cycle yada yada, but just so people understand sort of how science works.
Then you just got to wait and see what's going to happen with the other studies.
Right. You want to test it in more people with different kinds of depression.
And ketamine is a perfect example. So now we have more data and we can see that it probably helps about 50% of the people who take it.
And it probably affects on average last a couple of weeks.
And then many people will go back to normal.
So you see what I mean? So that's where I think people start to think like, can you trust science?
Because you're like, wait, you just told me ketamine was the cure. cure now it's not the cure right when really it's just like the progression of knowledge yep and so on Science Versus and I would just, like, encourage people as you're looking... on the internet at studies.
You're like, is this just one study? Is this a body of research? how sure can we be that this is going to hold up?
And it doesn't mean that that first study was crap.
It just means like that's what they found once.
Are they going to find it again? Yes. Yes.
See, I think it's also it's so important for people to remember that.
We have to trust while also understanding that The research never ends.
It never ends. That's right. Like, we will never have... this perfect book filled with all the answers.
Like, I mean, maybe in, like, what, 5,000 years, like, whatever, if everything lasts that long.
Like, I don't know. It's like... I mean, maybe then, maybe then.
That's exactly, yeah, that's right. And I think it too.
Kind of goes back to what you were saying about how we want a quick solution and science is a process.
Yeah. It's a frustrating, long process. Yeah.
But it's still the best we got. And it's still way better than someone thinks.
And it's pretty amazing. It is actually amazing.
Like, I feel like a lot of us sort of We're not grateful enough for the time that we live in.
This is actually a phenomenal time to be alive where Like medicine is so advanced.
Like we're curing shit. Like, you know, It's like crazy hearing stories about different diseases that were just...
Wiping everyone out. Yeah, like a hundred years ago, and now it's no big deal.
Yeah, it's no big big deal it's crazy there's a vaccine no one even gets it anymore and we take it for granted, but also, you know, when there are things that go wrong and there are things that we think...
We understand and then we don't and then maybe some people... I don't know.
We're all human and we're doing the best that we can and we...
I think at the end of the day, Yeah, there's the man who wants money, and then there's even the individuals who want money, but I think...
Ultimately, we all want to be happy and healthy.
We do. Yes. Like, I think that that is most of our goals.
Yes, yes. And I don't want to be like out here being like, you know, science is like, you know.
Like come down from heaven. Yes. You know, God was like.
Right. Because there are problems with science and science does have biases.
I mean, I always... I was listening back to our episode on the G-spot that we did, which has like a very...
Funny history. It feels kind of dated now because anyone talking about the like the female G spot.
I mean, I think people need to be talking about it.
I actually don't know anything about the G-spot, which is crazy, because I'm the type of person to be like, okay, find it. to like a guy but then I'm like I actually don't know what it is or where it is I also don't know if anyone would feel good if you found it like I actually don't know um The story of how the G-Spot was born is wild.
Wait, can you give, let's do a brief detour and tell us about the G spot.
Yeah, and then I'll come right back to how it fits into like sides can be fucked sometimes.
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There was this nurse, Beverly Whipple, who I interviewed, still alive today, and she She, oh gosh, what was this?
Let's put it in the 80s. was doing this study in women who, when they orgasmed, they peed. a little and in some cases peed a lot and like needed like towels and this was very upsetting for them.
Yeah, and so she's studying these women who at the time, you know, very taboo, very embarrassed about this.
And so she started examining them, which meant this is the time when video is going to be helpful.
I guess this is why. Yes. Yes. There you go.
There you go. Hit it. Yes. So she would she would take their vaginas and like just kind of like insert her finger.
And then kind of go around like in a clockwise direction and be like, how does this feel?
How does this feel? How does this feel? Mm-hmm.
And she kept finding that around the, if you imagine like your vagina is like a clock. like the 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. slot. was like women would start smiling and get excited.
I love it. Right? Yeah. And so then she ends up writing a book about it.
She goes on the Phil Donahue show and like we found archive from the Phil and it's so funny because it's like so funny.
But she's out there talking about the best way to do it is with the woman on top and missionary, she does something like missionary style, just doesn't cut it.
Like in the 80s. That's fucking amazing.
And you hear Phil Donahue go like, oh. You know when they can't handle it, they're like, we've never talked like this before.
That's amazing. Amazing. So she starts, and I think she did this, once it starts blowing up, maybe before she wrote the book, she did this talk.
And people were like, you have to name this thing.
Mm-hmm. And at one point it was going to be called the Whipple Tickle because her name is Beverly Whipple, but then they went for the G spot because G is like...
Dr. Grafenberg was another doctor who maybe found this spot.
Anyway, so it goes on Phil Donahue. It blows up.
There's all these articles, you know, G-Spot, G-Spot.
Oh, my God. Can you find it? Let's find it.
But in the meantime, like, no one knew, like, what was it?
Like, is it nerves? Is it a gland? Like is it, what's going on there?
And it took until the 90s, like 1998, I think it was, when an Australian –
Helen O'Connell was on a totally different track.
She was reading... This is where we get back to science can be fucked sometimes.
She wasn't really aware of all this G-spot talk at all.
She was on... She was like studying anatomy.
She's like a uni student. And her anatomy textbook... basically didn't have the clitoris in it.
I asked her like it was a blank spot there and she said basically a blank spot.
What? What? So she's like using this anatomy textbook for four years.
You know, it's got a perfectly formed penis in there.
Oh, yeah. Without it, of course. There's no doubt.
There's like too much information about the penis.
But nothing on the clitoris. What? And she's getting madder and madder and madder about this.
And then one day she gets given this book by a group of feminists in America. was like a friend of hers was like, you want to see this book?
And she was like, yeah, I want to see this book.
And it had these beautiful diagrams of, like, the vulva and the vagina and these... women had tried to look at their vagina But they had this line in it that was like, unfortunately, we didn't have cadavers.
So we couldn't, like, dissect... to see, like, what's going on in there.
And Helen O'Connell's like... I have access to cadavers.
Yes. Like I'm at a medical school. We got like cadavers coming out of our eyes.
Everywhere. Yeah. So she starts a study in, like, the 90s.
Whoa. one of the first scientific studies actually dissecting like where is the clitoris?
What's going on? What's going on in there?
Yeah. Because now I think it's fairly well known that like the tip that you see is like the tip of the iceberg.
Yeah. It's this very large, you know, this is like something that's really good about this.
Like, you guys know. I know this, right?
I feel like even six years ago when we were looking at the episode, people were like, Oh, the clitoris is so big.
But now we know. It's like big. It's got like a Burt Reynolds mustache kind of vibe coming down.
It's big. But she worked that out in 1998, that paper was published.
And it was only then where we could start being like, wait.
So what's the G-spot to take it all back around?
Yeah. And she was like, I can't see anything in this 11 to 1 position, but what I can see... is this huge clitoris.
Yeah. Wow, this thing is big. Oh my God.
No one's talking about it. So wait, is that actually what it is?
Is that the clitoris just extends inside?
Yeah, for some women. So it's a piece of your...
Right, because I feel like some people can't orgasm vaginally.
That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's probably... So now our understanding of the... the vagina and that whole region and the clitoris is, like, the...
The clitoris, the vaginal wall, even the urethra, which is like where we... pee out of they all sort of interact in this very interesting way.
That like, I don't know, we used this terrible analogy in the podcast where we were like, like puppies dancing.
Yeah, so cute. I love that. And that is now like the vaginal urethral complex. which is probably what the G-spot was in some of these women.
And so there is no spot is bottom line. Why I think it reflects like that science can suck sometimes is like why wasn't the clitoris in that analogy?
Yeah, like how did that get missed? And the thing is that in the 1900s, like, you know, Grey's Anatomy.
Of course. Of course. Yes, yes. It's a textbook.
It's an anatomy textbook before it was a TV show.
Yep. In the 1900s, they had the clitoris.
Mm-hmm. Oh. Late 1940s, clitoris gone. Why?
I don't know. We just have fucked. We just have an entire view of female sexuality.
Are women's orgasms bigger? Is that true?
Have you read into that? We did a whole episode on the orgasm gap.
Yeah. Um, you know, this idea, like some men, if you ask like, um, CIS men, like at How often do you orgasm when you have sex?
95% will say yes. You ask... Like women?
Do you want to have a guess? How many? Well, let's use my own life.
No, it's so mean. I'm so sorry to everyone.
No. Oh, God. I don't want to go too low.
I was going to say 40. I was going to say 40%.
65%. Okay, that's good. Yeah, you want to guess.
Oh, sorry, that's straight women. Do you want to guess gay women?
Oh, it must be way higher. I mean, I feel like that would be like 95.
Yeah, it's 89. 89%. Very good. Yeah. Yeah.
So that tells us that, like, this is largely not a biological thing.
It's not like it's that much harder to get us off.
This is a cultural thing, mostly. Do you think it is harder for women to orgasm?
Like actually? Yeah, so we looked into the science of this.
Get into it. Yeah, what is this orgasm?
What's causing it? Is the female orgasm such a big mystery?
That was our exact question. And there's been these phenomenal studies.
I love our sex episodes. There's so much fun.
So fun. Right? Really dive deep. Yes. Because we're just talking science, man. but it's like also no one's talking about it in a day to day as much because it is sort of even still sometimes a taboo it's so fun I love it.
Yeah. So, for example, they've gotten people to go into MRIs.
Mm-hmm. and orgasm and like either masturbating or getting their partners.
But MRIs just as like fun details. Have you ever had one?
An MRI? Yes. Yeah. So it's loud. Yes. It's like...
Yes, it's a very weird experience. It's a weird experience.
It'd be really hard to orgasm in there. So hard!
Are you kidding me? And also, it's like, do you get any stimulation?
You're in there alone with a loud sound.
Good luck using your imagination. You know what I mean?
And I know they're not playing a video for you.
It's like you're really on your own. That's so sad.
It's so hard. It's so hard. And not only that, on an MRI, you know how you have to be really still?
Because movement is the killer of an emerald.
You need the image to be crystal clear. That's true.
And so researchers had to design a helmet which –
She called the researcher, Dr. Nan Wise, she called it the Hannibal Lecter happy hour. helmet because I think it ended up covering the face just so they wouldn't move.
So they had to wear this. Then they had to like, you know, sort themselves out or they had a partner. partner do it but because it was so loud the the scientists had to be like relaying information like She described it as like a deranged, like a flight host where she was like,
She was like, your partner has started orgasming now.
And I'm like... Your partner has stopped orgasming now.
So through studies like this. Yeah. Researchers have discovered that the orgasm is a big brain event.
Mm. There's a lot going on in your brain, which is how it feels, right?
So it's not that surprising. And from what we can tell, the differences between the male and female brain under orgasm?
Very small. similar. Very similar. There's other similarities going on like when you look at the the nerves around the vagina versus the penis.
So the biology doesn't seem to be able to explain the huge differences.
One researcher did suggest... that because the penis is external...
There's like more to play with, I guess.
Like, so you could like see... Is this a sensitive area?
Is this a sensitive area? And you can do that with the vagina, obviously.
It's just a little more difficult. It is.
And, you know, and she was saying she studies people in the lab.
And she's like, you know, sometimes we are like... poking around the vagina and will be like, is this nice?
Is this nice? And they just can't find it on some women. sometimes in there like and i even for me like even with my own vagina i'm like it's a mess Because I'm like, it's not... A beautiful mess.
A beautiful mess. Obsessed with it. but happy to have it.
But like, like literally she's awesome. I love her, but she's just.
But even sometimes with me, I had to learn, even when it's your own vagina, it's not like you know where your clit is.
Yeah, immediately. All the time. You learn that later in life.
Whereas if you have a penis, you can see the penis.
It's right there. There's no like, oh, wait, where is it?
There's no discovery. Yes, that's right.
You know, some women I know have like maybe a smaller clitoris.
So like you have to like... And it might be like underfold.
So you have to like actually move things around to then see it.
Yes. It's very interesting. But, I mean... Yeah, so that tells us that, like, so maybe there's a little bit of biology there.
But the fact that gay women can orgasm almost 90% of the time.
Yeah. Tells us that a huge chunk of this orgasm gap is social.
Mm. It's social. And like actually surveys have been done of like college kids, college like men, and they know where the clitoris is.
They're clearly just not finding it. They don't care.
You know, like, or some men, some men, like, this is social.
Oh no, definitely. And there's surveys that have been done of women that like we prioritize male orgasm.
That's when sex ends. And it's really sad that like that hasn't changed, right?
That hasn't changed. No, it has not. Yeah, and that sucks.
Like, I remember when I was in high school, I was like... the gender gap on many things.
I was like, we're so close to getting that, right?
You know, like once we get the wages sorted, equality is like, you know, we got it.
We got this. Then we're both going to come every time and it's going to be fucking awesome.
And now I'm like, No, like no, like it's still the primacy of the penis.
Yep. it's still sex is done when they come.
It's like, and. And you can see it in the data that, like, women will say, like, I prioritise them coming in.
No, I know. Like, I've done that. Because they should be like, you know, okay, now it's your turn.
Yeah. That's how it should work. But it's also like I think a lot of guys, too, are like scared to ask questions.
Well, that's just a sex thing anyway. It's a very hard conversation to have to be like, you're not doing it.
Yeah. It's not working. Yeah. Like, it ruins the, like...
It doesn't need to be that way. It could just be like, let's try it this way.
It could be a fun thing. Totally. It doesn't need to be...
Like you're ragging on them or anything.
No. Like, hey, let's try. this let's try that exactly I touch myself while we're doing this yes this could be yeah it doesn't need to be negative I think one day, I think we'll be alive when... when the stats go up and the girlies are having their orgasms just as much.
And it's all, maybe we'll be alive for that.
Wouldn't that be such a treat? That would be great.
That'd be great. I really thought, you know how like there was like big dick energy a couple of summers ago?
I was like, what about like generous lover energy?
Yes. What about excited clit energy? Yes.
You know what I mean? What about well-attended-to clitoris energy?
Yeah. Why not? Or why are we not doing that?
You're like, that's what we need. We could go through the celebrities in our lives and be like, you know, Kadi B, well-attended clitoris energy.
Yes, you can tell. Yes. You can tell. No, there's been phases of my life.
If you scroll through my Instagram, you can tell when my clitoris was not well attended to.
You can see that shit in my eyes. Okay. And then all of a sudden it's like one day there's a little glisten back.
What happened? You know what I mean? You can see it in the eyes.
Okay, so we're starting that as a hashtag.
You guys all take that and run with it. That's so good.
We just... unintentionally answered one of my first questions, which was, let's talk about the orgasm, because that's one of the things that you've You've dug into... You've dug into so many things.
We need to dig into like... There's a few things we need to dig into that I know that you're like, you've done the dirty work, you've done the research, You've, whatever.
And one of them is very relevant to me because...
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Let's have the vaping conversation. How is your journey going, by the way?
What happened to me was I made an episode, a podcast episode, being like, I'm quitting.
Yes. Because I woke up one day and I was like, I'm quitting.
I quit. Then... I went through a rough patch and I was like, there's no fucking way.
Because nicotine withdrawals are tough. Yeah.
And. it was like, I just can't, I need this.
This is my pacifier, I need this back. So I started again.
Then a month ago, I quit again. And I've gone a month.
Yeah. You know, my goal was, okay, I'm gonna quit by the time I'm like 25.
Because you ultimately have to quit when you get pregnant, right?
So it's like, I don't want to deal with... pregnancy and having to quit nicotine which is so emotional you gotta like cut down on your caffeine fate there's already a bunch of shit to do right too many stimulants that I love will have to exit my life alcohol is I really can't handle all this quitting at once.
So to not have a glass of wine on a Friday, wow, that's rough.
So, anywho, tell me about, tell me everything about vaping because I'll tell you what my, I always had excuses.
Because when you're addicted to something, you always have excuses.
You're like, no, like... You know, it's not even like... There's no tar with the vape.
There's no tar. There's nothing... Combustible.
There's nothing burning. Combusting. There's nothing burning.
You know, I remember somebody told me once, actually, I think it was like a guy I dated for like a month.
He was telling me, because he's super addicted to the vape too, and he's like, no, no, no, it's totally fine.
It's like the... Vegetable glycerin, the base of it, is... He said something about it being water-soluble, so it won't...
It's vegan. It's okay. Yeah, he's like, it's actually really organic, so...
It's like chia seed vibes, so it's totally fine.
It's super kale energy, it's super Erewhon coated.
They'll start selling it at Erewhon one soon it's organic babe but also oh my god Wait, this is... I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm so excited.
Because... He was like basically saying like, oh, so it's safe.
Like it won't stick to anything. You just exhale it.
It's fine. Yeah. And then also... Something that a conclusion I came to was, hold on a minute, there are all these vapes that are... supposed to help you quit nicotine and they're supposed to be completely safe.
But they're quite literally the exact same ingredients.
The only difference is there's no nicotine.
And it's like, I get that that then helps you sort of like if your oral fixation is what you're the most sort of drawn to more than even the nicotine itself.
See, for me, it was always nicotine as a stimulant.
Like I think it helps me, Yeah. But they're marketing these... alternative vapes with no nicotine as being a healthy alternative and it's like, this is still you inhaling something.
So what's the difference there? And there's flavors involved here.
And I actually tried one of those once, and I will not say the name. it made my lungs feel very weird.
Oh, interesting. And I did not, like, it made me feel like, heavy and I was like this I don't like and I immediately stopped because I was like I do not like this but I was like Anyway, so all of this rambling to say,
What's going on? What's going on with the vape, okay?
Because honestly, if somebody were to tell me, It's actually totally fine.
I'd be like, amazing. I'm going to fucking bait them.
I would literally, if someone told me right now, okay, it's totally safe, I'd be like, Peace out.
I would literally wait. I would have my babies so that, you know, because I was whatever.
And then I would then vape for the remainder of my life.
So please tell me everything. Yeah. Okay, unfortunately, I'm not going to tell you that they're totally safe.
But I think a lot of the, like, confusion out there is because... as like the vast majority of data out there shows that vaping is safer than smoking.
Mm-hmm. But that is because smoking cigarettes is so bad.
I feel like... We sort of missed out on how bad it was because already by the time we were sort of coming into our own, like...
There'd been all these ad campaigns of how bad it is.
And we've just sort of forgotten... But one academic told me that like cigarette smoking, it's kind of like...
It's a bit of a cartoon example, but it's kind of the equivalent of putting your mouth over a car. like exhaust fumes and just being like, you know, like the amount of Cancers that it caused, I think it's like one in three deaths from cancer in the US can be directly caused by smoking. like directly contributed to smoking.
Wow, yeah. It's crazy how bad, like, it's crazy that it's legal, but it's so bad for you.
Yep. And so to say that something is safer than smoking, It's like saying like, you know, like being, you know, Smoking is being like hit by a truck and then like dragged for 10 miles.
Yes. you know vaping is like being hit by a jeep you know and you're not dragged but like So that's one thing.
So I think like in the UK, for example, there's this big push to like use e-cigarettes to quit smoking.
Because that is still considered safer. Yep.
The vast majority of studies. Although I will say like there was a study that came out recently that kind of suggest otherwise but I think going back to our point of like you look at the the data that's what it suggests okay So given that, so if you're currently smoking cigarettes and want a way to quit and think vaping might help you.
Yeah. I think the data suggests that's a good idea.
But vaping compared to nothing. compared to air, beautiful, beautiful air.
Yes. This is why the friendship is going to get into trouble.
Yes. No, I need this. I need to hear this.
Continue. Yeah, so for a long time, and I almost feel like it was probably like You know, really in the last like 10 years or whatever, So first there was just like all this talk, it's safe, it's safe, it's safe.
And I feel like that's when a bunch of people started taking it.
Yep. And then the data starts coming out.
Even though there were always academics that were like, look, it's probably not great.
Like you are still brilliant. Yeah, there's nothing.
Anytime you're inhaling anything that's not clean air, it's probably bad.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so we now, so for example, we talked to this researcher who, who had interviewed something like 3,000 kids who were like, I don't know, kids, I don't know. late teens, early 20s, and found that if you vaped, you were way more likely to have symptoms like cholera. coughing and wheezing.
Two thirds of the people in their sample had symptoms like that.
And the researcher was like, this is not normal.
Like a 19-year-old wheezing? Yeah. you know, that's not good.
That's a bad vibe. That's a bad vibe. That's not doing good things to your lungs.
Yes. And it's sort of, you can deal with coughing.
It's not great. Yeah. Wheezing, you know, but it's sort of thought that these problems that it's causing to your lungs are like the canary in the coal mine.
Like if you keep vaping, you keep, it suggests that something's going on and your lungs are having trouble.
And if you keep bringing that stuff in, it doesn't get better.
Yep. And then we have data like on the flavors, for example.
So the weird thing with the flavors is that, like, a lot of them have been approved for safety for eating. like that's so like that's what's wild is that That's where most of the flavors come from.
It's, like, the, like, cinema aldehyde is, like, the... chemical they use for cinnamon vapes, which I don't think is a very popular flavor.
By the way, horrible flavor. ew who's smoking that y'all are weird for that okay yeah ew exactly So I'll tell you, I haven't smoked that one, so we're good.
Continue. Exactly. Exactly. That's why it feels so bad for scientists.
They're like, we finally worked out cinema outside.
And then everyone's like, fuck. that like we don't even like that flavor it's like i like the melon one yeah yeah yeah So that's how they started getting the flavors.
They were like, oh, we already know. Like it gives whatever this chemical gives like a cherry flavor. like to your cherry ripes or whatever.
Like what if you just inhaled it? And no one had really done the studies for inhalation.
They were just like, it's safe to eat. But we know that like our stomach has acids, like our stomach evolved to eat weird, potentially dangerous shit.
Yeah, right, you're eating berries and you're like, this wasn't great, but just get it out.
But your lungs like weren't designed to like shove...
No. Do you have an evolved for that sort of thing?
Industrial style clean. Totally. And we already have examples where stuff that has been safe to eat we know is not good for your lungs.
And so the example scientists like to use is diacetyl, which is like the buttery flavor that I don't, it shouldn't be put in vapes because we know oh, it's really harmful.
But it's put on popcorn. It gives like the buttery taste of popcorn.
Yeah. As far as we know, really safe, like very yummy.
But then in a popcorn factory a couple of decades ago.
This is how scientists were like desperate to like, do we know anything about its inhalation?
So popcorn factory where they're making the diacetyls going into the popcorn, but there was an accident.
And a bunch of people inhaled a ton of it and a lot of them their lungs just like fucked up a couple needed like lung transplants as a result And it's called Popcorn Lung, which maybe you've heard of.
Yep. which sort of sounds like, oh, your lungs turning into popcorns, but it's actually from this popcorn factory.
Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Interesting.
Okay, yeah. Yeah, and so that was, like, the first example where... you know, we know that diacetyl is bad for your lungs.
And there have been examples of people who have inhaled it in a diacetyl in vapes and it hasn't been good for their lungs.
So, I mean, just generally, and then the propylene glycol, which is the stuff that makes it like... fog that makes it like, it's like a little fog machine.
It is actually the same chemical that's in theater smoke machines.
Oh, God. The amount of years that I inhaled That is so bad.
Okay, continue, continue. Tell me the truth.
Right? I mean, it's fascinating from a chemical perspective that you're like, oh, that stage fog machine.
Oh my God, I'm in like a fucking Halloween haunted house in my lungs.
My lungs literally for years looked like a Halloween haunted house.
For better or for worse, let me tell you, I was having fun blowing my O's, but I was really like...
But it can't be good. Yeah. You know, or like you're at a club or whatever.
Yeah, it's like a race. in my lungs. Yes.
Okay, yeah. Yeah, that's right. And there's evidence that's also not great.
And they even have studies from theatre workers who have had to inhale a ton of this stuff.
Interesting. And things like that. So we know all these, they're not good.
They're not good. Mm-hmm. And then there's also some upcoming research into nicotine itself.
Because there's been a debate for a long time about whether nicotine is even that bad for you.
Yep. because it's addicting and it's the reason, as you well know, that you want to keep coming back.
Yep. So in that way, it's bad because it's like bringing along the flavors.
Being addicted to anything is not good. Well, yeah.
I mean, I guess it's a philosophical debate.
That is. Because see... It's funny you say that because that was something that I did research on I always would do research and like cherry pick the studies or things that I would look at.
Like to... like allow me to continue vaping.
Like I would literally I love the self-awareness.
No, I fully know what I was doing, but I would be like, I read one article once that nicotine as a chemical, it's the same as caffeine.
It might be a little bit more addicting, but when it comes to like it's risks, I guess.
It was equal. So now there's this new... That was kind of how I had understood it as well.
And then when we did this episode... And dove in.
That was like kind of for a long time because it's so hard to study because most of our nicotine research comes from smokers.
And so you're like, how are you supposed to know what caused the damage?
Like the nicotine in the tobacco or everything else that you're smoking?
Exactly. Like when you burn the tobacco.
And so now they're doing research and it's really at its early stages.
So what we've known for a while is that smokers have a high risk of getting depression.
Mm hmm. And for a long time, there was this question of like correlation causation, like which which is basically this question of like what Chicken or the egg.
Chicken or the egg. Did the smoking cause the depression? were these people already likely to become depressed?
Or are depressive people less likely to care about their well-being, therefore smoke? smoke or smoke to already help with the symptoms of depression like it just like wasn't clear whether nicotine was then they started to see the same pattern with vapors.
So vapors were more likely to get depression.
Again, you have the same, like what was going on.
To answer that question, science often uses like rodent studies basically. to try and find like a mechanism, like how on earth could nicotine, like what do we know about nicotine in the brain? or in the brain, how could it cause depression?
Does that even make sense? Yeah. you know, this early research and the problem is it's in rats, it's not in humans.
Right. But what they're finding is that like there are some areas in the brain like the reward center. that like makes things feel good, you know, when you smell a flower and you're like, that was nice.
Yeah. Like nicotine does seem to be affecting the reward center in these rats.
Yep. So that makes sense. It makes sense.
And so there is this question that maybe for some people it's sort of like, dampening your enjoyment is sort of the theory, which we know is a symptom of depression is that like, things that used to give you joy or that perhaps give other people joy don't, you're like, whatever.
Yep. And so that, you know, so that's kind of where the research is at, which is like we're seeing this trend.
We see it in the rats. Peace. And yeah, we'll have to wait and see.
But I don't want to oversell it that nicotine is going to cause everyone's depression because that's clearly not the case.
There's... But we're just seeing that pattern.
And so it's just another reason, I think, if people want to reduce consumption.
The few times I've quit, insane. Right.
I'm a very anxious person anyway, so I think anytime anything changes...
My anxiety is just the first thing to react, right?
But horrible anxiety, like the worst, that was really bad. yeah no it was really bad and like mood swings and like all these issues and then you know now I'm my nicotine consumption, if you were to look at how much I'm consuming now versus when I was using the vape, it's much less.
And I do feel much more emotionally stable.
Which is interesting. And my parents noticed that too.
They're like, oh my god, when you're not I always get so mad at my mom because she'd be like, I swear to God, the vape makes you a wreck.
It makes you a wreck. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Like, I've been vaping for... since I was like 16, bitch.
Me like being so mean to my mom and it's like because I'm babying. because I'm vaping it's like I'm being ruder because I'm like so like strong on this shit like what are you saying what are you saying like shut up Emotionally stable right now.
I think it definitely made me or I noticed that sort of I don't know.
I think there is an emotional impact. Overall, the consensus is we don't actually know that much about vaping, but we know that we shouldn't be doing it.
All the signs are pointing to if you cannot do it, that's great.
And the less that you do it, the better.
Right. Have you done anything about alcohol?
Yeah. Is there any way to drink alcohol?
Because I've seen so many contradicting things.
Yeah. There's been the study... a glass of red wine every night.
It doesn't hurt. I've seen that. Okay. But then I've also seen like, Tequila with lemon.
Totally healthy. Okay. That's actually totally fine.
And my mom was like, my mom texted me that once and was like, Oh my God, see, this is what you order.
So it's totally fine. Tequila soda with lime, or lemon, it's totally fine.
And I was like, yay! Or like, you know, only on the weekends.
It's like if you only have it a few times a week, right?
If you save it for special occasions, it's totally fine.
What are your thoughts on drinking? The alcohol episode was one that actually made me change my habits.
And make me change the way I drink. Yeah.
It's actually kind of like a really interesting science story. of like an interesting story.
Yeah. Um, of why we thought alcohol was good for your heart. basically researchers like did these studies where they got, you know, it's like what if someone were like, How would you run a study to find out whether alcohol was good for your heart?
We get 10,000 people, whatever. We ask like, how much alcohol do you drink?
And then you follow them for a bit of time and you say, whose heart gets bombed.
Looks the best, I guess. Yeah, and Luke Hall looks the best.
Yep. And what they kept finding is that like the people who drank alcohol seemed to have better hearts. than people who drank no alcohol whatsoever.
Interesting. And so they were like, this is amazing.
Like... You know, I think maybe the first studies were to do with wine, but then later studies came out about, like, all the alcohols and they were like, oh my gosh.
And then they stopped telling me. store antioxidants.
Antioxidants must be good for your heart.
Now we have a mechanism. We're in. And then some researchers were like, Wait a second.
Wait a second. Like, who are these people who aren't drinking any alcohol anymore? at all.
And this was like pre the non-al era. And you might think it would be, and I would have still thought maybe it's like my body is a temple, super healthy.
Yep. But it turned out that the group of people who weren't drinking any alcohol at all were actually people who were sick.
And their doctors had said, you need to stop drinking alcohol.
Right. And so then there was this big, like, battle in science.
Like, maybe it's a little bit good for you even if you – blah, blah, blah.
But now I think that the thinking is it's not really that good for your heart.
And it was just this like... This, like, you know, science progresses.
Science progresses. But what we do know is that it is a carcinogen.
And it does increase your risk of cancer.
I didn't know it was a carcinogen. Yeah.
Which is crazy. I should have known that.
The breakdown products of alcohol. can like muck up your DNA and like, and it causes, and that is what, because like, When you get older, people you love start getting cancer.
Yep. And that's what made me really cut down my drinking habits.
Because we do so much to prevent cancer.
Like, you know, you're like, I'll do exercise.
I'll do this. I'll do that. And then I was like, but I was still drinking a ton.
Totally. And I'm like, oh, what am I doing?
Like, I don't need to be drinking a ton.
Yes. Yeah. I'd also like, I mean, at least for me, it makes me anxious and depressed.
Like it fucks with my brain. Yeah. Like when I'm. you know, you want to create like crazy.
We did an episode on, um, on hangovers, um, That was on my list.
Oh, right. I think the most surprising... like episode we've done yep um like what do you think is the cause of hangovers My guess would be that Your liver is processing...
I have no idea, by the way. So this is so random.
So like, this is my guess. We did like voxies on the street.
Yes. Like vox bobs. And everyone had the same answer.
Really? It did not involve the liver. Dehydration.
Oh! You're kidding. No, no, no. No, no, no.
But that's what I think a lot of listeners, that's what I thought it was, dehydration.
That's the thing. That's what everyone thinks is that it's being dehydrated.
You're being dehydrated, yeah. Because alcohol, there's this story that alcohol There's a diuretic that makes you pee and then you lose a lot of water and you become dehydrated.
Yep. But actually, anyone who has had a hangover, known about or thought they knew about this dehydration thing.
Like if you ever, I definitely have had like a terrible hangover and I'm like, before we did the study.
And I'm like, I gotta shrink order, I gotta shrink order.
And, like, I am paying, like... It's clear.
You're like, I'm fucking fine. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like clearly my body is rehydrated, whatever.
And I still have a terrible hangover. So the current thinking is that it's actually caused when your body breaks down alcohol. it produces like the breakdown products, they're kind of like little, Like just a little bit toxic.
And it creates this inflammatory response. because your body like has this immune system where it's like, what's all these toxins doing in my body?
And the immune system calms. And it starts to be like, get rid of all these toxins, creates inflammation.
And that's what's thought to cause like the terrible like headaches.
Uh-huh. the the real like hangover effects where you're just like oh like brain fog stuff like that It's inflammation that makes complete sense.
Okay, wait. This is completely... This last topic that I need, because this is so me, I cannot...
We cannot skip this one. Gossiping. I need the science on gossip.
Is it... Am I allowed... I'm such a gossiper.
Yeah. I am. But I believe that it's healthy.
Like, that's my belief. Yeah. Because to an extent, I think that it's healthy when it's done...
Like when it's not just like, did you see his hat the other day?
Like it's not just mean and bitchy. It's when it's like for the sake of...
Let's discuss gossip. I think a lot of people will say gossip is all bad.
You know, it's like that's a negative thing.
There's nothing redeeming there. And then some people will be like, No, this is how we connect as human beings.
We should gossip all the time. But I don't think that that's probably where... the science lands?
What's the ruling on gossip? Oh, I mean, that kind of is where the science lands.
Interesting. Okay. We know that gossip can be harmful, particularly in like...
High school, middle school, we've all been there.
It can be really nasty. It can ostracize.
It can, you know, if you're the target of gossip, it can...
Oh yeah, it's bad. Of mental health issues.
There's also like a lot of studies done in the workplace which I hadn't thought of as like a gossip mongery place, but of course, course it totally is yeah and you know studies that show that like gossipy workplaces people tend to be less creative, less happy, you know, and we've all been there as well.
And it is, it's like stifling to be in a gossipy workplace.
But then the positives. So interestingly, there was this really fun study that... got people, the Spanish study that got people to, they were scanning their brains, I think it was an EEG, and gave them either statements that were gossip or statements that were just like trivia.
Right. I think they started a sentence that was like, the highest mountain in Germany is blah.
And then I said, how interested are you in this answer?
Yep. you know, would answer whatever, very interested, not interested at all.
And then for the gossip ones, I think there was one that was like, who did Barack Obama have? having an affair with.
Yes, totally. And people were like, you know, not interested.
Like I don't, that's not me. I'm not interested in that.
Yes. Then he went back to them like a week later and was like, so do you remember what the highest mountain in Germany is? people tended to be like, And they're like, do you remember the answer to the Obama question?
Which was Beyonce. Yes. stupid which is this huge like rumor in like Europe like totally And so we know that like we remember this content.
Also, when he looked back at the brain data. he could see that people's brains sort of lit up.
It's like the brains were giving them away.
The brains were more excited about the gossip too, even though people said, like, I don't care about that.
Like, I don't. So they're morally like, I don't care about that.
But then they're like... Googling it the second they're out of their MRI scan.
Exactly. There is something about gossip that we love.
Yep. And there is a bonding component to it without a doubt.
Like you meet new friends. you know, who know your other, it's like a connector.
Yep. You know, you can feel that love in the room when you've got some great story about a friend.
It may not be bitchy. Yeah. So there is like a bonding component.
And so I think like where our episode of... and maybe it's where the science landed, is like if you could gossip in a way that isn't going to hurt someone else, Yes.
If you could be a little careful with how you tell a story.
Yes. Then you could get the benefits of gossiping.
Yes. This is the best news. Yes. Yes, and also there was this fun study that I think tracked middle schoolers And it said that if someone is saying really negative gossip... which really only happens in middle school, I feel like.
When you grow up, you abandon those friends pretty quickly. if the next person in line, like say someone was like, oh my gosh, like Jeremy, like Jeremy's pants today look really stupid.
Yeah. And then the next person said, oh, I actually think the pants are cool.
That was like the fizzle, like the gossip ended.
You needed that second person to be like, oh yeah, him and his sister. stupid pants and then it was like wildfire yes so you can be like the savior of the gossip if someone's just saying something mean if you like punch it down it's like oh not a good story like That's true.
So you could be the savior of the gossip.
Or you could not, like me. I believe in like, I do believe though that For somebody who is like me, for example, who loves gossip, like I do, although I'm so... so protected about it.
Like I have like Four people in my life, maybe five that I gossiped with.
Because I was just about to ask you, what's the best bit of gossip?
Yeah, it's like, I'm so good about, I'll share some gossip with you after, I'll come up with something.
But it's like, I never share it on the internet.
A lot of people... go on their podcast and they're like, let's gossip.
It's like, no, don't do that. That's like the worst thing you could do for society.
Okay, so. It's like a handful of people, only when I know that it will never get back to the person And that's fine.
And then also, it's not all... But I have noticed that Even though I'm somebody who's prone to gossip, enjoys gossip, loves gossip, believes in gossip, thinks it's crucial for society, I also know... that it can be negative even for the person who loves it and who wants to discuss it.
If it's not done right, like you... You don't want to be like...
It can't be all you do. Getting enjoyment off other people's pain as well.
Like I don't think... It has to be fair.
Yeah, and that's like not a good side to the soul.
No. You're not really going to feel great after just, you got to, yeah.
It has to be in good faith. If you're going to be shitting on someone, they have to have shit first.
So it's like, you know what I'm saying? They need to have done something genuinely bad.
I know. Okay, that's so easy. You're going to be shitting on someone.
Now, if you guys make anybody out there merch companies, I'm going to be making that.
Because I have to ship them. It'll be really expensive, but I'll make sure just because, yeah.
But get ready. But I just remembered another fun fact from that episode, which is that...
Men gossip basically as much as women do.
Whoa. Yeah. So they've done these studies where they like put microphones on people and then switch them like on and off.
Mm-hmm. This is why we love science. We can objectively measure this stuff at different times.
Like they, and, um, And so they find that men do it too.
Yes. And the definition of gossip is, it's a very loose one it's just talking about someone when they're not there yep So it's not necessarily Maine.
Yep. But men, women, we all do it. I refuse. to date a guy who will not gossip with me.
Like, I'm actually not getting that as a deal breaker.
Like, if there's... Because if they're going to be annoying about it... No, I'm like, if I'm... If I want to be like...
Oh, like this, you know... This girl was like so rude to me today and she did this and blah, blah, blah.
I need, I refuse. Thank you. To go on a second date with a man who, I don't really go on dates.
It's not very Gen Z. But anyway, I refuse to like, entertain somebody who will not be like, wait, like, What was she wearing?
Like, I need a guy who... They gotta have fun with it.
No, I need a guy who will meet me there.
And it's true. There are... It's not as... Like, stereotypically, it's a woman thing.
But if you get... If you, like, allow...
Everyone gossips. It's everyone. It's everyone.
It's really not a girl thing. No, it's not.
I think maybe some of the studies show that sometimes women do mean a gossip, but everyone's talking about it.
Everyone else. Otherwise, what are you going to talk about?
Actually, what else is there to talk about?
No, I'm not kidding. What else is there?
I think about that sometimes. Like, yeah, you can talk about art.
You can talk about yourself. You can talk about music.
You can talk about... You can talk about philosophy, but when you, okay, but that's like, oh, okay, great.
Now you have an hour used up. What else is there?
Now there's gossip. Sorry, that's when the gossip comes in.
Okay, so that's great. So now I know that... You can feel good about it.
Science approves of your... Of your gossip.
Okay, so I can't vape, but I can have a glass of wine every once in a while and I can fucking gossip.
Yeah. So life is good. And you know what?
And you can orgasm. I know. I was going to say, and I can orgasm.
Every fucking time. I just, as long as, no, you just need, oh my God.
Not that. And there are other ways to enjoy sex and being with each other.
Not so much pressure on the orgasm. I'm sorry, but I... If they're doing it, you can do it.
No, I've... As you know, there's a phase, I think, in every young woman's life where it's like, damn, it's, like, not happening, huh?
Yeah, look, I will say, like, yeah, it took...
It took mid-20s before I was even horny.
Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Which I actually... You know, it was...
Coming on the show, I was like, oh, what is something that I think is an important message that we don't talk about enough?
Yes. Because there's so much pressure, particularly in high school, maybe in college too, about like, oh, she's frigid.
She's frigid. Oh, I was so frigid. But were you frigid or were you just not horny?
No, I wasn't. I wasn't. And also, I wasn't... I don't think I was...
It was not possible for me because you can't mentally get there unless you feel safe.
But I remember like sitting around when I lived in a share house in Sydney with an amazing... three other women and we were sitting around and I guess I would have been in my mid-twenties then.
And they were all talking about the first time they masturbated.
And one of them was like, I never remember a time I didn't masturbate.
Whoa. They were like, I kind of remember rubbing up against stuff when I was three years old What?
I didn't even think about it as masturbating.
Another one said when I was 13. That's when I was like...
I was like going down in there. And they turned to me and I was like...
I haven't done it. I so get it because I didn't until...
Okay, wait, no. For me, I came... from like my first orgasm was from a guy.
Yeah. Like doing it for me. Yeah. Like my first boyfriend.
Yeah, me too. And I was like, what? And I had never... I didn't even know...
It was crazy. That's right. No one's like talking to you about it.
No one's like giving you advice. And unlike with guys, it's not like right. so you have to have an urge from within, and I just didn't have that.
You don't know what you're missing. Yeah, until my mid-20s.
And so I really wish the conversation, instead of it being like, frigid or whatever or whatever fucking words they're using to, like, judge women. women and girls who don't want to have sex um it's just like do you want sex right now you don't You have to want sex right now.
Yes, yes. You know? Like, you're... 13, you're 16, you're 19, maybe you're just not horny.
And like, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
And so like, Whatever. How about when I was 25?
I was like, fucking awesome. No, I love that.
I'm so of that, like... It's because it's not...
It's not even good when you're younger anyway.
Like, it's not that... Okay, so, like, for example, it's always like...
Oh, like, have sex... Like, you know, you want to, like, have sex... as soon as you can, this was like the belief when you're in high school or whatever, it's like, have sex now so that you can get good at it and then whatever.
But it's like, you're so... No, that's just not how it works.
If you're not feeling horny, you don't need to do anything.
No. Yeah. Oh, my God. I could talk to you all day.
You have to come on again. I would love that.
This is so much fun. Because I... I'm not kidding.
We could go down every, we just scratched the surface today.
Yeah. That was amazing. Thank you so much for coming on.
This was so much fun. The best ever. No, you actually have to come on again.
I would love that. Okay, great. Yeah. The 90s are so back, which is why this summer, Instacart is bringing back everything you loved about them.
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