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It means you're leaving control of the situation in favor of a belief.
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Julian, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for your invitation, Kwame.
Really glad to be with you.
Thank you very much for the invitation.
Oh, it is my pleasure, my friend.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, I'm Julian Perebere.
As you can hear, I have a French accent.
I have a French guy.
So I'm a professional negotiator living in France.
And about my background in few words, started maybe 15 years ago.
I've spent more than 10 years as a salespeople, sales manager in different kinds of consulting companies.
And I was so in love about negotiation and the way Paul makes their own decision.
I wanted to study negotiation.
So I've spent more than four years in laboratory research in Lassoborn University.
I've passed a PhD degree about negotiation.
Then I've created my own company, NARA Institute, which is a consulting firm, helping advising and training companies, people, governmental organizations when negotiations get tough or sensitive.
Amazing. Listeners, this is a long time coming.
Julian and I have been in contact for a while and I'm so excited to have you on, man, because you have such an incredible well worth of experience and expertise in this.
And also you have a really unique perspective.
And today we're going to explore one of those elements of your unique perspective, which is trust.
Trust. Yeah. I'm excited.
Let me just give you the floor.
So let's just start off with your perspective on trust.
Yeah. Really, please stop me anytime.
It doesn't make sense.
Or you don't understand due to my French accent.
It's really important.
It's our understanding about trust.
So take what is good for you with what I'm sharing about trust or negotiation.
We're in person. First, we have to define what is trust.
And you know, in English, you have two words.
You have trust and confidence.
In French, we just have one word, which is really close than confidence, which is confiance.
Confiance means trust.
I'm going to explain it because confidence, for example, you have a fidence, which is a Latin word, means to have faith, to have a belief.
And con, it's a prefix which intensifies the word.
For example, if I try to convince you, I try to win and con is more important.
So what is trust or confidence?
Trust is literally a strong belief in the consequences of an action.
It means you're leaving control of a situation in favor of a belief.
In other words, true trust excludes control and involves taking far too much risk.
It doesn't make sense for us to talk about trust in negotiation because the risk of trust in negotiation is not being vigilant, not questioning the other's frame of reference, for example, who are lying about just what you're saying.
Why do we need a contract?
I trust you. So it doesn't make sense to have a contract.
Trust is no good in an organization.
For example, you are my manager, Kwemi.
We have a meeting at 11, and I am 30 minutes late.
And you're saying, me too.
You are 30 minutes late.
What's up? And I'm saying, Kwemi, please stop.
Trust me, it's going to be good.
And what about your target, Julian, at the end of the month?
How is your target?
And I'm saying, please, Kwemi, trust me.
I'm the best. I'm going to perform.
Don't worry. You know, it doesn't make sense.
I know, Kwemi, that you play basketball.
You have a big competition this evening, and I'm saying, I'm your coach.
Kwemi, what about your preparation for tonight?
And you're just saying, oh, please, Julian, trust me.
I'm the best one. So we believe that trust is the luxury of those who have nothing to lose, especially in negotiation.
The more you're going to have trust, the less you're going to have performance because the more you're going to have trust in organizations or with people, the more people are going to become lazy because adding faith is less painful than control.
Does it make sense so far?
Oh, my goodness. Yes.
I'm sitting here taking so many notes.
Let me make a quick summary just in few words, please, Kwemi.
I mean, the output of trust could be good, but the strategy is no good.
For example, Kwemi, you have lottery in the US, and if you play all your savings in lottery, you win the jackpot.
Is the output good for you?
If you win, the output is good.
Of course it's good, but you have the answer.
Is the strategy good?
No. It's the same for trust.
The strategy is no good, but the output could be good.
And now we say trust is no good in relationship because you're going to become lazy.
You're not asking questions.
You're not being curious.
Why do you have to be curious?
You trust your society in negotiation.
Why do you need a contract?
You trust your society.
We do not answer about what you have to do.
In negotiation, we believe that the first emotion in negotiation is fear hope.
It's not fear and hope.
It's fear hope. It's a mix.
And I'm going to explain it in a few seconds, if you're on me.
Just what is fear and what is hope?
Fear is linked to the expectation of failure or danger.
It's a mental projection.
It's a future. And hope is linked to the expectation of a success or a benefit.
It's the same. It's a mental projection in the future.
For us today, we believe that there is no duality between these two emotions.
It's a mix. You don't live on fear and hope.
You don't live from fear or hope anymore.
I mean, fear has no existence.
And hope has no existence.
It's the same. You can separate fear and hope.
It's a mix. And these two emotions are a mental projection in the future by your brain that will create a differential between projected expectations and reality.
Fear is to hope what yin is too young because in our Western culture, it's yin and yang.
But in Chinese culture, it's yin yang.
There is no difference.
It's a dynamic. They have no existence of their own.
Each is the future and past of the other.
They project you into a future that doesn't exist.
They deprive you of a part of yourself in the present moment.
They prevent you from reaching your optimal state, negotiating flow.
But what if fear becoming more important than hope at the beginning of the negotiation?
You're not going to negotiate.
You're going to freeze.
Does that make sense?
And you're going to create mistrust.
Mistrust because you're afraid to have an agreement.
You're afraid to not reach a good agreement for you.
Maybe you're afraid to reach an agreement which is not good for you.
And we believe that mistrust is driving you with a lack of performance as well.
The more you're going to have mistrust, the less you're going to have performance.
And maybe you're going to see what is my idea.
The idea of negotiation, it's to create a relationship without mistrust and without trust.
What we are looking at in negotiation is no mistrust, no trust.
And when I'm hearing people saying, we're creating a relationship with trust with this competitor, with these people, with this hostage keeper, it's no trust.
It doesn't make sense.
What you have to create is no mistrust, no trust.
And this idea is going to create performance.
And it's something we call psychological security area.
And if I'm working with you, Kwemi, and there is no mistrust, I can tell you, you know, Kwemi, I don't agree with you.
Would it be absurd to do it this way, for example, etc, etc?
We are creating, we are innovating.
But I don't trust you to become lazy.
Do you see the idea of what I'm trying to share with you?
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Julian, let me recap here.
You tell me if I'm getting this because this is a really novel approach to negotiation because you know it, I know it.
We have all of these books who talk about trust, and this is a completely different paradigm.
So I also like the beginning, how we started off with the word choice, like the Latin roots of these words, because that will have an influence on how we understand it today, so that faith in something.
And when we think about faith, faith oftentimes in America we have a spiritual saying, faith is the beliefs and things that are not seen, right?
So I don't need evidence in order to believe this thing.
And so if you bring that kind of perspective into relationships and into business negotiations, then what we find is that trusting too much can be very, very problematic because you don't challenge things, you don't question things, you have no due diligence, and essentially you're putting yourself
at the mercy of other people.
But then you're saying we're not going to tip into cynicism or negativity, we're recognizing that we have to have this dynamic between not blindly trusting people and putting ourselves at a disadvantage and making ourselves inappropriately vulnerable to the other side, but at the same time not creating
a relationship based in mistrust, which then leads to unnecessary skepticism.
So in the actual conversation we can have a relationship where we can challenge each other without it being perceived as a threat to the relationship, and so we can still protect ourselves and not put ourselves inappropriately at the mercy of the other side.
Definitely. I mean, in the interaction with someone who can say no, which is negotiation, you have to decrease fear, but not create trust.
And because you were talking about vulnerability, it's the idea of trust.
The more you're going to trust the other side, the less you're going to control the output of the situation.
And when you're hearing people saying, you know, I trust my wife, she's the love of my life, but we have a contract, a wedding contract, something like that, it's not about trust.
You see? But it's important for people to trust because we have too much activities for our brain and the more you're going to trust people, the less you're going to make effort for your brain.
So it could make sense, but the more you're going to trust people, the more you're going to not control the outside of the situation.
And I don't want to trust other people, but I want to create a psychological security area with people.
There is no fear. We can say when we disagree, we can say when we are not seeing life the same way.
But I don't want people I'm working or becoming lazy.
And the more you want to create performance, the more you have to create this psychological security area.
No mistrust, no trust.
It's like for special forces.
I mean, if people are just trusting each other without training themselves every day, they are not reaching high performance.
You see the little difference?
That's the idea. No mistrust, no trust.
Psychological security area, high performance.
That's the main idea about relationships, we believe.
This is so fascinating.
And so essentially what we're doing is as negotiators, we should have emotional and psychological discipline to make sure that we don't put ourselves inappropriately at the mercy of other people by trusting them too much.
And now on the flip side.
Now, let's look at it from the other side, too.
Now, for us, let's say we put in ourselves in this security area.
What about the other side?
Because we have so many negotiation and conflict resolution strategies that say this is how you get other people to trust you.
Do you still try to get people's trust?
No, because if I'm saying, hey, Kwemi, please trust me, what am I really saying?
I'm just saying, you know, Kwemi, I don't know how to fix a situation.
And I'd like you trust me, it's going to be faster.
So please trust me.
When the other side is saying, trust me, please don't trust the other side.
It's just because he has no way to fix a problem.
You just want a shortcut.
You see what I mean?
If I'm saying to my child, please, my love, please trust me, but be fast.
It's just I don't know how to decrease fear and I want to be fast.
So I'm saying to my child, trust me.
It's the same with others.
But when the other side is saying, trust me, it's not good at all.
He's not able to fix a situation.
He's not able to show you how much value he can bring in negotiation and he wants a shortcut.
That's it. Does it make sense?
Oh, 100 percent. Yeah.
And I think one of the things that I've recognized is that in negotiation, a lot of times we're focused on thinking offensively.
So we're saying, what can I do to get more of what I want?
And we only focus on that.
But really what it sounds like from your perspective is that we need to also make sure that we are playing good defense.
We need to make sure that we are protecting ourselves, protecting our interests, protecting our hearts and minds to make sure that other people are not manipulating us through trust.
Yeah. But what you're talking is about power in negotiation.
And our point of view is, I mean, power is kind of force you can push or pull.
But what is the definition of power?
Power is your ability to possess or detain a resource that's the other value.
What does it mean? What is your true power in negotiation?
It's just the high ability you have to fix the problem of the other side.
You can't have opportunities in negotiation if you're not an opportunity for the other side.
So the first question I have when I'm negotiating, the first one, it's how can I become an opportunity for the other side?
Even if I don't like him, even if I don't think it's fair in negotiation, I want to become an opportunity for the other side because it's just about motivation.
We have two different types of motivation in negotiation.
You have extrinsic motivation, which refers not to the pleasure of performing the task, but external reasons.
And you have intrinsic motivation, which refers to the pleasure of performing something.
And if I'm negotiating with you, my idea about negotiation is not just to have a deal.
It's not to get what I want.
My idea about negotiation is to get the maximum of the situation, which is a little bit different.
Does it make sense?
Oh, yes. And who is the only person who can give me the maximum of the situation?
Is it Kwami or is it me Julian?
It's Kwami. You can give me the maximum of the situation in negotiation.
So now, two situations.
Maybe I can use my power against you, saying, Kwami, who is that?
You know, I'm the chief.
So do it right now.
You have no choice.
And I'm threatening you.
Or I can work to be an opportunity for you, even if you don't like me.
But my idea is just saying, you know, Kwami, with me, you're going to have more than without me, even if you don't like me, I'm going to be an opportunity for you.
Whatever happens, my only target in this situation is to be a resource for you to have more.
Which situation do you think I'm going to have the maximum of the situation?
First one or second one?
Second one for sure.
Second one for sure.
So the idea of negotiation is not trying to convince people.
It's not trying to argue.
The idea of negotiation is just trying to be an opportunity for the other side, saying, hey, you know, with me, you're going to have more than without me, even if you don't like me.
That's why you have to work about this kind of intrinsic motivation and all our system.
For you to do something about intrinsic motivation, you have four dimensions.
First is you have to be free.
All right, because the more I'm going to insist, the more you're going to resist.
So you have to be free to do what you're going to do.
Second, you have to do something which makes sense for yourself about your value, your belief, etc., etc.
Third, you have to reach a benefit or avoid a loss.
And fourth, you have to have capacities to do the things.
Internal capacities, which is your brain, your belief, etc., etc.
And external capacities, which is training, network, etc., etc.
It's freedom, sense, benefit capacities.
And if I can align the fourth dimension, I can have the maximum of the situation in negotiation.
Oh, this is this is great.
And we can see how the conversation room from trust flows into power as well.
Of course, because you can use your power against the other side, just saying you're the chief, or you can use your power to enhance the other side in negotiation.
And that's the idea about negotiation is trying to enhance the other side to be an opportunity for the other side.
And it's all about trust and power in negotiation.
You see, I'm thinking about anger.
Do you want me to talk about anger?
Yeah, absolutely. First two emotions in negotiation is fear hope.
It's a mix between fear and hope.
Right. And sometimes your fear more important than hope.
You're going to freeze.
So far so good. But you have to act, you have to move fear.
It's a mental projection in the future.
But you have to act, you have to move.
So now you're creating anger.
And you know, when you're angry, you don't think about the future.
You don't think about the consequences of what you're going to do or say.
With angry, you're going to think just right now to move.
So in negotiation, if you're angry, Kwame, so please don't do, please Kwame, calm down.
It doesn't make sense.
Of course, questioning, labeling, angry is good.
I'm saying you're angry, Kwame.
Really sorry about that.
Could you tell me why?
Are you hungry? It's good.
But if you want to be better, question fear.
Because anger is hiding fear.
I'm saying you're angry and really sorry about that, Kwame.
Maybe I do something not cool, not good in negotiation.
Is that something you fear in negotiation?
I did really sorry about that.
Does it make sense for you?
Yeah, so essentially what you're saying is that when it comes to the hunger that somebody is feeling in the moment, that emotional state, that physical state, that state of being is so powerful that it can overcome that fear hope dynamic.
And it can hide that for everybody in the negotiation.
Yeah, because you're not thinking about the output of what you're doing.
You have to move, but anger is created to hide fear.
Fear to not be right, fear to not feel respected in negotiation, fear to be wrong, etc, etc.
When you see angry people in streets for political reasons, for racism, for everything you want.
It's not about anger.
It's about fear. Fear to be wrong, fear to create a belief since childhood, which is not good.
Fear to be different.
Fear to not be respected.
It's just about fear.
Fear hope is a mix.
Okay, so really what we're saying here is that when somebody has that hunger, that craving for a specific thing in order for us to truly be able to be that opportunity, as you described, we have to understand what is the fear that is leading them to be hungry right now in the moment.
You're totally right.
That's the idea. Yes.
Oh, this is fascinating.
This is fascinating.
And so it sounds like in a lot of these conversations, then it's our responsibility not only to discover it for ourselves so we could be more persuasive, but it's possible that the other person hasn't fully appreciated or acknowledged that fear that is their own true driver.
And so you have to go through this conversation very empathetically and driven by curiosity because it's like both of you together on this journey of exploration to figure out what that fear is so then we can solve the problem and provide that opportunity for them.
Definitely, definitely.
You have to be empathetic first with yourself, asking what you're feeling, what are you afraid, what are you hoping in negotiation, etc.
And empathetic with the other side to question the other side to have a better understanding of perception he has about the situation.
Definitely. Yes. And Julian, one of the things that I like about this, especially when we go into those four dimensions where we talk about freedom, sense, benefit and capacity, one of the things that I recognize is that in these conversations, a lot of times they can begin to break down into arguments
where it becomes right and wrong.
And really what those conversations are, it's not really a negotiation anymore.
It is an intellectual battle of superiority where one side is trying to dominate and subordinate the other side.
And so we think that we can get what we want by dominating through these little logic games.
But really what you're recognizing is that I need to figure out what it is that they truly want.
What are they afraid of?
And how can I help to make their situation better?
So it's not about necessarily us agreeing on the small, minute details or agreeing on who's right or who's wrong.
What we have to do is recognize what in the real world this person wants to improve their situation.
And then we have to become that tool for improvement.
Definitely. What you say is really important for me because it's a paradox you have in negotiation.
Either you want to be right or you want the maximum of the situation.
You can't have both in negotiation.
If you want to be right, you're going to explain to the other side is wrong.
And guess what? Do you think you're going to have the maximum of the situation?
No, it doesn't make sense.
You just want to create something to get the maximum of the situation.
That's it. Maybe you agree, maybe you don't agree.
That's just your point of view.
It's not about the other side.
And what you want to become, it's an opportunity for the other side to have more with you than without.
Yes. Oh, this is great.
This is great because again, it shifts that whole power dynamic.
Because a lot of times when we talk about power and leverage in negotiations, it can be very technical, but also it can be very scary.
And because of that fear, people don't fully appreciate what it really means because really your framework on power is rooted in opportunity.
And a lot of times when people say, oh, there's a negative power dynamic, they might have the power.
I'm going to get destroyed in this negotiation.
They come and they are led by that fear.
And like you said, they freeze.
And now they don't think about how they can create opportunities.
But then when you look at it through this framework, you recognize that we all have some level of power.
We don't know what that is without further exploration, but our power is going to depend on the dynamics of the situation and the relationship we have on the other side, because I might have a lot of power in a conversation with this person over here, but not a lot of power in the conversation with this person.
But then if I start to dig a little bit deeper, and I understand what it is that they really need, I might not have all the money in the world.
I might not have the biggest company in the world, but I do have something that can improve their scenario.
And that would be my source of power.
Definitely. Because you want the maximum of the situation, the more you're going to use your power against the other side, the more you're creating fear.
The more you insist, the more the other side is going to resist.
And if we're creating too much fear, the other side is going either to freeze, to fight, or to fly.
If you decrease fear, now is going to access to its belief in the past, to say, okay, last time we did this and it works.
That's good. But what you want is to decrease fear for the brain of the other side is able to think.
Just think, okay, it's a different situation.
I don't want to reach in my past.
I want to understand how unique the situation is and to create a unique solution.
And for the other side, able to do that, you have to decrease fear and fear.
And the more you're going to use your power against the other side, the more you're creating fear.
I'm not saying you're not going to have an agreement.
I'm just saying you're not going to have the maximum of the situation.
Yes, that's powerful.
And I love that framework to that methodology, that mindset about focusing on getting the maximum of the situation because the reality is sometimes we don't have full control over all of the circumstances and every dynamic that's at play.
That's understandable.
And sometimes the maximum we can get in the situation might not be that great in overall total terms, but that's not our responsibility to try to make everything perfect.
What we can do is we can focus on the things that are within our control and do the very, very best we can.
And I think when people have that very narrow perspective on winning, losing, and they create this false dichotomy that is really quite arbitrary given the circumstances, then they get lost in it because they say, well, I am in a losing position.
I can't win from traditional terms.
So then they just give up and then they don't think about how they can still maximize the scenario.
I don't want to win in negotiation.
It's not a game. I just want to have the maximum of the situation because if I want to sell you for 100 and you have 120, is it a good negotiation if I can reach 100?
It's what I want. No, because I'm leaving 20 on the table.
Does it make sense?
But now I want 100 because it's my target.
I don't know why my manager told me which 100 is good for you.
Okay. I want 100 and you just have 98.
Maybe it could be a great negotiation, negotiating 98.
So you don't want to reach what you want because you know nothing.
It's just a perception of what I think of what I'm understanding about what I'm preparing about, about, about.
I don't know what I don't know.
So the idea is to be an opportunity for yourself to create a situation and to reach the maximum of the situation for myself.
That's the main idea because I can't control this.
I cannot control to have 100, but I can create to have the maximum of the situation, respecting you in negotiation.
And because I'm this kind of mindset, I'm going to become a resource in the negotiation.
I'm not going to be neediness.
I'm going to be a resource to help you to have the maximum of the situation.
I just want to be an opportunity for yourself.
That's my main idea to show you how much we can create value and how much you can have at the end of the negotiation working with me.
So you cannot say no to me.
You can just say no to yourself.
Yes. You know, Julian, one of the things that I'm recognizing about this is that this mentality, it's not just the particulars of the negotiation scenario, it's not just the dynamics of the negotiation or the outcome of the negotiation, it's the process, but it's deeper than that.
It's how you feel during that process as well.
And tell me if I'm if I'm close on this or if you with this mentality can feel this too, but I feel like once you absorb this, it leads to a greater level of acceptance in the negotiation where you say, hey, listen, I'm going to accept the situation as it is, and I'm going to maximize the situation.
And I recognize let's just use simple percentages terms.
I might not be able to get 100 % of what I want, but I know that I have the skills to get as much as possible from this scenario.
So you're not so focused on the outcome.
And so you don't feel as fearful.
And that allows you to be more confident, relaxed and calm during the negotiation.
You understood everything about the system.
We're not focusing about the outcome of the negotiation.
The more we're going to focus on the outcome, the more I'm going to be a whole stage of the situation and the negotiation.
I just have to focus on every step to prepare every step I can control, of course, to prepare to listen, to understand.
And the output is just a consequence about everything we did right in negotiation.
The more you're going to have a fear of a mental projection of the outcome, the more you're going to be a whole stage of the negotiation, the less you're going to have high performance in your negotiation.
You don't have to think.
I know it's a paradox.
You don't have to think about the output of the situation.
You just have to focus on every step and to be really great on every step.
And maybe the consequences are going to be agreement on an agreement.
It doesn't depend on yourself.
You cannot control to have an agreement.
So do not focus to control what you cannot control.
It doesn't make sense.
You see what I mean?
Oh, yes. Oh, this is powerful.
It's like basketball.
Imagine it's the final of the NBA.
And you have the last shot.
And if the ball is going to be in the basket, you're going to be champion.
And everybody is going to say, why me?
Your star, your hero, you're going to make a lot of money.
You're going to be on every newspaper, etc., etc., etc.
If you have everything in mind in the last second shooting, I'm not a professional in basketball.
But I think it's going to be hard because you're thinking about what you cannot control.
But if you're just saying, OK, I'm just right here, right now, and at this level of competition, this kind of shoot, I did a thousand times, a thousand, etc.
So it's like in a training session.
No less, no more. And you're doing it for free, maybe going to work, maybe not.
But it's going to be easier for yourself.
It's the same negotiation.
The more your focus is something you cannot control, the more you're going to be out of the stage of the situation and the other part of negotiation, the more you're going to be neediness, the more it's going to be hard negotiation.
Amazing. Julian, this has been exceptional.
My friend, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom with us.
This is great. Thank you very much.
I really appreciate it.
I hope it was clear about this kind of concept.
It could be really different about what we heard about negotiation, but it's all about psychological negotiation.
Absolutely. 100%. And before you go, make sure to let the listeners know about you, where they can get in touch and how they can work with you, too.
Yeah, they can work with us on institutionshirenera .com.
I have a LinkedIn profile, Julian Perebert.
Everything is written in French and in English, so they can reach us really easy on LinkedIn.
Julian Perebert. And thank you again for the invitation.
I was so glad to share our understanding about negotiation and just take what is good for you with what we understand about negotiation.
And thank you again for the invitation.
Really glad. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before about it.
You should listen to it again.
I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium.
Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed plus so much more.
I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode.
And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation.
Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career and every conversation?
With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level custom design content and insights, giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals and better relationships in your life and career.
Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53 ,000 raise.
Could this be you? What would that mean for your life?
I've seen first hand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients and I am confident that it can do the same for you.
Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life?
Click the link in the show notes to learn more.
I'll catch you later.
