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And that's why today's conversation with Dr. Laura Hambly is so important.
She's the host of Where Work Meets Life and a leading voice on thriving workplaces and thriving humans.
In this episode, we talk about what healthy leadership looks like, how organizations can build cultures of trust and how individuals can make smart, empowered choices when work starts feeling heavy.
This is a conversation about clarity, courage, and building a career that fits your life.
Let's get into it.
I got really interested in the topic of toxic bosses because I had seen an increase in the number of them, an increase in the number of toxic bosses and toxic workplaces in the last few years, post-pandemic.
And I noticed that I run a team of career psychologists and They work with thousands of people and they had been saying the same thing.
There's just a lot of toxic workplaces out there.
And so I decided I would embark on a program of research around the behaviors and impacts of toxic bosses and the damage that they do.
And post-COVID, so what do you think led to that rise?
I think that during COVID we saw a lot of good things come out with how to lead people and how to understand that we're all human beings going through this world situation.
And there was more compassion and empathy for different situations.
And I mean, a lot of things went on, right?
Like Black Lives Matter.
And there was this sort of movement towards caring about people.
And then I saw that, being in the last couple of years, it's just It's been more about business profit profit, profit right.
And it's been kind of the pendulum has swung the other way, very extreme.
And I'm just seeing more bullying behavior, more egotistical types of leaders and more toxic workplace cultures as a result.
And I think it's because there's a fear of recession.
There's fear of not enough, I think.
And then AI coming in, I just think there's a lot of pressures on people.
And when people are under pressure, their worst behaviors can come out.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Because the scarcity, that's one thing.
Fears, pressure.
And then, whenever you have that cocktail of emotionality, then oftentimes we see the worst of people start to come out.
Do you agree?
Do you see that too?
Oh, yeah.
I think about the...
I think everybody can perceive it like we can feel it, but a lot of times we struggle to give words to it.
And I was looking at some recent studies.
I can't quote them like who it was, but we're seeing empathy down.
The ability to empathize is down.
I think also the willingness to empathize as well, because we have the feeling of being empathetic but also the skill of empathy as well.
Both are down.
There's a less willingness and there's, I think, less compassion.
So you think about how with COVID, how there was an element of, hey, we're in this together.
But I think that has rapidly declined.
People seem to be more self-centered, focused on themselves.
And so if you're focused on yourself, you have less empathy.
You can't even perceive the damage that you're doing to people a lot of times with your behavior under stress and pressure and scarcity.
Bingo.
And then we get polarization because you get more extreme in your views and perspectives.
And we have polarization going on big time down there in the U.S., but also in Canada up here.
We see more and more of it.
And I think it just causes a lot of harm really, because you can't meet in the middle and have good compromises and collaboration discussions.
Yeah.
I mean, and I think the point that you made there Laura, is so important too, because I know the majority of the well about 50 percent of our listeners are in the States, in the United States.
But then the next top countries, it's going to be Canada, UK and Australia.
And I think, as Americans, we can often think that we are the epicenter of polarization, when in fact this is a very global phenomenon.
Very much.
Yeah.
I'm wondering too because one thing about you that I think is fascinating with your background is that you were one of the leaders in remote workplaces and how to do that effectively.
How much do you think the remote work that we find ourselves in?
A lot of folks are either fully remote or hybrid.
Do you think that's having an impact on toxicity too?
I don't think...
I actually don't think so.
What I'm seeing as a trend.
Actually, having been following this for 20 years, I'm seeing the trend is pulling people back to offices right.
And saying that we need people back at work.
And I hate that when we say we need people back to work, but they are working, right?
So work should be a noun, not a.
I mean sorry, work should be a verb, not a noun, because we can work from anywhere.
And I think that if you have a toxic boss, they can be toxic remotely.
They can be toxic in a hybrid.
They can be toxic in the office.
It just plays out in different ways.
Yeah.
No, I think that's good.
And I think that's important to note as well, because sometimes people might say and I've heard this before when there's toxicity or confusion, they'll say well, you know what?
It's because of the remote environment.
So everything will be solved once we come back to work.
But what we're seeing here is that, no, you might not be addressing the problem completely.
Exactly.
And I see more controlling types of leaders who are fear-based and don't have trust.
They believe everyone needs to be in the office in order to be working.
I see that as a problem.
Say more on that.
In terms of, yeah, everyone must be back at the office to know that they're working.
And I say, well, what are you measuring them on?
Are you measuring them on presenteeism?
Do they need to be back in five full days a week?
And what about their life and their Their ability to, you know, take care of their whole life.
And what if they have an hour commute each way?
You want them to commute 10 hours a week in order just to be there.
And in this day and age of technology, people are finding themselves on meetings like this, on Zoom on Teams and stuff most of a lot of the time anyway.
So I think it's a real I'm a huge advocate of hybrid, actually, for that reason.
Yeah.
It's funny that you mentioned that, because I have a friend and he said that he was loving the hybrid.
Well, actually, it wasn't hybrid.
It was fully remote during COVID.
And he said, this was my best work.
He's a corporate lawyer at one of the top law firms.
And then they went to hybrid and then they went fully back home, back to work.
And he said, Kwame, this is the most ridiculous thing ever.
I was able to be home with my family and be supportive while still getting actually more work done.
But now I have to commute 45 minutes to the office where I can't work and commute 45 minutes back when I can't work.
And then when I go to the office, we're having conference calls with other people who are in the office too.
I could have been doing this at home.
And then I go home and then I do more work after I put my kid down.
That's a burnout recipe.
That's a burnout recipe.
Exactly.
Yeah, I call BS on it.
I think it's wrong and it's short-sighted.
And we need to level up leaders is what we need to do.
They need to level up to the new day and age that we're in, which requires more empathy, like you said, and requires trusting people and holding them accountable to clear objectives and outcomes, like your friend who was productive, working remotely.
And maybe there's a middle ground where he comes in two or three days a week and gets the best of both worlds.
Exactly.
No, I agree.
I agree.
I remember a few years back after COVID, we had an office space and I just realized most of the team.
They were introverts.
They didn't like coming into the office.
They were performing well remotely.
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It does.
There are challenges with leadership, but again, like you said, there are leadership skills that we can develop and metrics that we can measure to hold people accountable to performance too.
Absolutely.
You said it perfectly.
Yeah.
And now let's talk about the book because this is exciting.
And I know you've been rocking the podcast for about six years now, too.
So I'm sure that your listeners are very excited to see that a book is coming out.
So can you tell us about that?
About the podcast and the book?
Yeah.
Sure.
So the podcast is called Where Work Meets Life and it's topics at the intersection of work and life.
And being an organizational psychologist, that's my PhD, and I have a master's in counseling psych.
It's about how you create thriving organizations.
So I have lots of episodes about thriving organizations.
Leadership culture diversity, empathy whatever issue will make the culture better.
And then I have episodes around thriving humans.
How do we thrive as human beings mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually?
And then I talk about career fulfillment.
So my company, Canada Career Counseling, I mean, I'm a career development sort of expert.
And we talk about how people can find purpose, meaning and fulfillment in their careers.
So every third episode, you'll hear from me.
And then the other episodes, I interview global experts on different topics in these arenas.
And it's really fun because it's I just learn so much from everyone and I bring timely topics up.
And one of these timely topics is toxic leadership, which I'm happy to share about the research and the book.
Yes, this is great.
To your point too.
When it comes to the podcast, I feel like people don't fully understand the joy of podcasting as a host, where you get to just learn from the best in the world at whatever it is that you do.
And so I can definitely relate to that.
And yeah, let's talk about toxicity and the research that you found, because I know this is going to resonate with a lot of folks.
At some point, most of us have had that toxic leader experience.
And it'll be interesting to see what the research shows, but then also what we can do about it.
How do people navigate toxic bosses?
Well, there's the eight personas of a toxic boss that came from my research.
And I think, first and foremost, it's important to understand what type of toxic boss you're dealing with, because they have different ways of coming forward.
So some of them are very overt, so they'll be aggressive. harassers, bulliers, abusers, basically.
And then there'll be the covert ones that are kind of like the snake in the grass.
So the gaslighter, the dishonest manipulator where they lack integrity, and they'll manipulate situations.
They'll pit people against each other, pit teams against each other, but it's done sort of behind the scenes.
Does that make sense?
Oh, it makes too much sense.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
So it's understanding you're not alone.
There's a lot of people dealing with toxic bosses.
What's the difference between a difficult and a toxic boss?
Because a difficult boss can be managed.
You can learn to work with them.
They don't have the intent to harm.
They're frustrating for sure, but they can learn.
They can grow and develop as leaders.
A toxic boss will have no self-insights, will not be coachable and mentorable and will do steady damage.
Damage to your physical health, emotional health, and your productivity.
I think this is an important part to focus on too, because we...
I think a lot of times we don't fully appreciate the impact of toxic bosses on our person, just psychologically emotionally mentally, physically.
And in your research did you find anything surprising about how having a toxic boss impacts individuals in surprising ways?
A hundred percent.
So, We asked people all about the impacts and we asked a few categories of impacts.
We asked the impacts on the work itself and on their feelings about work.
So how engaged were they in work?
How satisfied they were?
How productive?
All of that suffered.
And then we asked them about their mental and emotional health, and all kinds of things came out there.
So affecting their sleep, giving them workmares, which are nightmares about work.
And then anxiety.
Anxiety was one of the biggest.
So walking on eggshells, always watching your back, feeling this anxiety.
And if you work a Monday to Friday, Sunday night syndrome, and then Mondays you would dread.
You would dread the next meeting with your toxic boss.
People dread the one-on-ones because they don't know how the boss is going to be.
A lot of these toxic bosses are very unpredictable, so you just never know what to expect, which leaves you on edge.
This is so funny, timing wise.
I was talking to to one of my friends and she just told me that she had a nightmare that their boss hired the toxic boss back.
So it's very real.
It's a form of trauma.
It's really sad.
And I would also say it affects people's eating.
It can lead to more drinking and drug use.
It can lead to cardiovascular health issues.
There's actual research showing toxic workplace relates to cardiovascular health.
The U.S.
Surgeon General made a warning a few years ago about toxic workplaces are a killer, basically.
They kill people over time.
We've got to eradicate them.
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Right.
Yeah.
And one of the things I've recognized that actually taking a step back, a lot of the folks who listen to the show they might identify as being people pleasers, people who are struggling to have tough conversations.
And the reality is that in these situations, when you're dealing with a toxic boss, it's yes, of course you want to protect yourself, but you have to recognize if you're going through this traumatic type of scenario, it's going to affect the people that you care about at home too.
If you have a partner, they're going to feel it.
If you have kids, they're going to feel it too.
And so, when it comes to solving this problem and breaking free, as your book says, from the toxic boss, it is not just you doing it for your own benefit.
There are other people that will benefit too.
Absolutely.
Yeah, it does.
It trickles into your whole life, all your relationships, and it impacts families.
And yeah, it's a societal problem that needs to be addressed.
For sure.
For sure.
And so let's say somebody finds themselves with one of these eight types of toxic bosses.
What would be, in your opinion, their next step?
To run as far as possible?
No, I would say there.
Oftentimes people think there's only two choices I quit or I stay and a lot of times they feel they need to stay for different reasons that we talked about earlier.
But I would say there's actually six different things that people can do in the book and I like giving people choices because it it empowers you to get back in the driver's seat of your career, because the toxic boss has taken over the car, they're driving it and you're in the back seat typically.
You need to get back into the front seat and into the driver's seat.
So essentially the six options, only one of those options is to stay.
The other options are around.
Whether you quit, You make an exit plan and a good ridden state so that you have a timeline.
You can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
And then there's the option of filing a claim against your toxic boss.
So reporting them in your organization.
There's taking legal action.
There's all sorts of things.
And I talk about the pros and cons of all these choices, because there's no perfect choice, but what is the best choice for you?
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and i like the idea of options too.
Um because, when because again i coming into this i thought it was either just stay or just leave, run as far away as possible, as fast as possible.
But it seems like if you just, let's say, for example, if you leave, then without doing any of the other potential steps, you might not be doing anything to help anybody else.
So it sounds like filing a claim or a lawsuit or something like that.
That is a measure that you can take, almost like as a policy measure, to say hey listen, I've been affected by this and I want to try my best to make sure that another person isn't affected too.
Exactly, exactly.
And yet taking a medical leave or a leave of absence is another one.
We're seeing a rise in medical leaves, and I believe that toxic bosses are one of the reasons for that.
Yeah.
Now let's look at another level too, because I think it's kind of clear to see if you are working for somebody who is toxic.
There's a direct line.
I can see that this person above me is toxic.
But a lot of times we might have a toxic high performer.
Where there is a boss over this boss who doesn't realize how toxic this person is.
So they are a toxic high performer and they have a good relationship.
So they do a good job of performing to the only person who has real power over them.
So they're not toxic. going upwards.
They're only toxic going downward.
So how can you, as a leader, start to recognize when the person who seems perfect to you is actually a menace to the people beneath them?
And you've just nailed it, Kwame.
So two of the three reasons why toxic bosses stay so long is because they tend to be high performers.
They bring in money.
They bring in projects.
They bring in clients.
And they tend to be part of the social network or the social fabric.
So they might be buddies with the CEO, for example.
The third reason is ostriching.
So just avoiding the conflict of it because they know it's hard to deal with.
It's hard to address a toxic boss.
Very hard.
So then they ostrich.
Yeah.
So your question is the boss's boss.
Yeah, the boss's boss plays a big role in this.
And if they have courage, care, and curiosity, the three Cs, then they're able to address this.
Curiosity to ask the people to survey, to understand what's going on at the different levels of the organization.
This makes a lot of sense, because it sounds like one of the things that holds the boss's boss is back from actually taking action is the fact that taking action would take work, and they don't want to do that work.
And it's a bit of confirmation bias too.
They don't want there to be a problem, because if there's a problem now, I need to get rid of somebody who's making me money.
And now I have more work to do and I'm already busy and stressed myself.
And so that holds them back.
It's fear, right?
It's all about fear.
And so then if they don't know what's going on, then they don't have to address it.
So I mean there's annual engagement surveys and things that can sort of point some of these things out, but I'm a big fan of doing more targeted climate surveys, asking the right questions to get at what's going on in your organization.
So we're actually creating a survey on toxic leadership hotspots.
So you can identify toxic leader behaviors throughout an organization.
But it's only organizations that are courageous and open that will want to use a tool like ours, for example.
Right.
Because if you see the hot spots in a forest and you're not willing to put them out, what's going to happen?
You're going to have a forest fire eventually.
So it's about where are the hot spots, what's going on there and then addressing them.
And oftentimes that'll mean removing the leader from a leadership role and from a people leadership role.
Maybe you keep them as a technical expert or in their sales role, but you take away the people leadership or you need to exit them out of the organization because they're causing too much harm.
It makes sense.
It makes sense.
And now let's think about the person who has the toxic boss, but they want to try to make a change.
Let's think about this from almost like a negotiation perspective.
They want to circumvent the toxic boss to go to the top and say, hey, listen, I've got a toxic boss.
Like the person that you think is awesome, they're making my life horrendous.
So what's the best way for them to approach that conversation?
Or is that a conversation that's a bit too risky to have?
It depends on your risk tolerance.
It's important to understand the social fabric of your organization.
And if you don't understand the relationships above you, it is very risky.
HR plays an important role here as a go-to, but HR is often caught and stuck in the middle of this.
So they might hear something and be very concerned about it, but it's at a level higher up than them on the hierarchy.
And if they try to address it, it can get shut down.
And then they're trapped in this middle ground, which is very difficult.
So I speak to a lot of HR audiences on these sorts of topics that HR are dealing with.
Let's talk about that too, because I know the keynote speaking is a big part of what you do.
Would you say that HR audiences that's your main focus, or what types of folks do you work with on the keynote side?
I like variety, Kwame.
I speak to HR.
I resonate with HR.
I love speaking to HR crowds.
I also love speaking to leaders and decision makers and speaking about how they can build healthier, thriving workplace cultures and prevent burnout in those cultures and prune the toxicity.
So I have a keynote called Prune or Perish, which is all about if you don't prune your toxic branches on your tree, then you're in trouble.
So I love tree analogies, actually, and bird analogies, as you can tell.
I'm a nature person.
Yeah.
That's right.
We were talking about hiking earlier.
That's true.
Yeah, our neck of the woods is nice up here in the Rocky Mountains.
Very nice.
And brief aside, because both of us love psychology when you think about the nexus between mental health and outdoors and just your personal experience, how?
How much has being more outdoors helped you?
Because I know you're busy.
You're an entrepreneur.
You've got businesses.
You've had acquisitions, things like that.
Does your attachment to nature help to deal with the stress?
100%.
So much so that I did a health reset retreat in the mountains in July and it was called Mountain Trek and it was unbelievable.
I did two podcast episodes about it.
I did an article called the 10 Health Reset Gems I Learned at Mountain Trek and it was really about nature and taking in the nature around you and the power of that for your well-being and forest bathing, hiking, all of that.
It was beautiful.
Yeah.
And so I don't want to just gloss over that term, because I know what it is, but I just learned what it was like three weeks ago.
So I'm assuming a lot of people don't know.
Tell us about forest bathing.
Well, I've only done it once now, but it was really immersing yourself in nature.
Oftentimes when you're hiking, you're just going, right?
You're just going and you might be talking to the person you're hiking with and you're just not.
You're noticing scenery, you're pausing to take a photo here and there, but you're not really noticing forest bathing is actually going slower and noticing the little things and actually connecting with the trees.
I sound like such a tree hugger, sorry.
Why are you saying that like it's a bad thing?
No, literally, like you can hug trees and they can take your anxiety down into their roots.
I know it sounds crazy, but honestly, the things in the forest are healing and nature is healing.
And it's called vitamin N, vitamin nature.
And it's there for a reason.
Even if you live in the big city, you do have parks.
You do have places to walk and you do have trees that are surviving in the big cities and you got to go be with the trees.
Yes.
And I think this is there are so many studies that talk about this.
And again, it might not seem relevant, but think about it.
If you are suffering under a toxic boss, maybe you should hug a tree.
You know, maybe you should go outside.
Maybe that's one little bit of reprieve that you can get.
And for me, I even take it as far as with my keynotes.
I don't even have the only time I have pictures is if it's my family.
I tell a lot of stories.
But it's always nature photos, like a tree, a mountain, flowers, things like that.
Because I'm talking about negotiation, conflict resolution.
It's scary.
But I recognize the nature images are very calming to people as we're talking about these topics.
They are.
Right.
And then the lightning storm.
That's the conflict.
Right.
People see conflict as that, but it doesn't need to be.
Right.
It needs to be a learning conversation, a curious conversation, doesn't it?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
My thing is conflict is an opportunity.
The best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations.
And so if you can say you can change your mindset, change your perspective and think about conflict as an opportunity, then you're actually going to look for it and see it.
But it's hard for you to find something that you're not looking for.
And so it's a mindset shift that people have to have.
Exactly.
Yeah.
This is great.
This is great.
And I'm thinking too because again, when we think about toxic bosses bringing it back to your work, a lot of times we focus on the storm.
We focus on the negativity, the hard part of it.
Were there as you were writing the book, doing the research, and in the work that you do, have there been any surprising bright spots?
Yes, because working for a toxic boss can make you more clear about what's important to you.
You can learn a lot of things from a toxic boss.
You can learn what not to do in your career.
You can learn the opposite of how to treat people.
And you could also learn just how much courage you have inside of you when you finally break free from that cage.
And you realize, I should have left sooner.
It's better out here.
There's better opportunities out here for me.
And I can find healthier cultures by doing my due diligence.
And I talk all about that.
I have a chapter on how to avoid the next toxic boss the warning signs of a toxic boss in the hiring and promotion processes.
Oh, that's good.
Okay.
I was about to land the plane, Laura, but now we need to take it back off.
For another, just a quick lap around.
Because I think that's something that is often overlooked, especially if you don't have a job or you're looking for something new or you're trying to escape a toxic boss.
You're just looking for anything as a lifeline.
But we often ignore the red flags or don't even look for them.
So what would you say is the biggest red flag to look out for when joining an organization?
Well, I'll go right to the the boss that you will be reporting to.
So, if they talk about themselves the whole time, if they talk more than they listen in an interview with you, if they sound too good to be true, they talk about how this is the greatest team and I'm the greatest, I'm a great leader, et cetera.
If there's no humility there, that's a warning sign.
And if they interrupt you, if they disrespect your time, so they'll call you on a Friday night at 9 pm or something to give you the job offer.
They're just disrespecting your time from the get-go.
Those are warning signs.
That's very good.
That is very, very good.
That's really interesting.
And I think what's cool to me is how clear those are.
Those are very tangible signs.
So for those of you who are out there looking for new opportunities or fleeing a toxic boss, just keep an eye out to make sure you don't find yourself trapped in a situation like that.
And for those of you who are or know somebody who is, I think we have a book.
So Laura, can you give another shout out for the book and let listeners know how they can get in touch with you?
Absolutely.
So this book.
I decided I wanted to write a book for people across industries and at all levels, because we must not forget that there can be a director or a vice president who reports to a toxic CEO right.
And it can be all these different levels.
And I wanted to write a book for the masses rather than a book for the leaders.
I thought about writing a book for the decision makers on how to eradicate this.
And that's another book in my future probably, but this book I wish I'd quit sooner comes out January 13th 2026 on all the platforms, and I just recorded it for audible as well, so it'll be on audio.
And that was quite a feat, because I decided I wanted to narrate it nice, and that is.
That is much more difficult than you would think.
I i know for me.
When i recorded it i was like this was i should have hired somebody for this yeah, or have your ai.
So yeah, it's coming out then and i'm hoping it can help people to survive and to escape and then to heal.
I have a whole chapter on the healing and recovery and all the different methods for doing that and then so you can have a brighter future and take control of your career Amazing.
Laura, thank you so much for joining us.
This is incredible.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
