You're listening to Roundtable.
I'm Yohong Lee, joined by Steve and Yuhun, coming up.
Ever feel like you're just cruising through university?
Well, some folks are saying it might be time to pump up the brakes.
The talk about making it harder to graduate is heatedly discussed once again.
So should we toughen up university requirements, or is life tough enough already?
Let's dive right into the academic tug of war.
After that, please join us to Roundtable's hard-to-hard segment.
But now. Graduation is a milestone that represents hard work, perseverance, and achievement.
But what if reaching that milestone became even more challenging?
With recent debates over whether universities should raise their academic standards, we are reminded that education is about more than just passing tests.
It's about striving for excellence.
The ultimate question is, will tougher graduation requirements be the key to unlocking a brighter future for students?
Should university graduation requirements be tougher?
That is the question we are discussing.
But what actually triggered that discussion?
Actually the discussion originated from an article published by a teacher in a university named Cai Yuan Di.
So according to a recent report by local news portal, the paper.c.
Cai Yuan Di, who is a teacher from the School of Humanities at Hangzhou City University, and he faced a situation where over 30% of his students failed the final exams in his course, which are ancient Chinese language, ancient Chinese literature, and classical Chinese literature studies.
So across three different courses, 30% of his students failed his exams.
So in response, the school asked Cai to explain the high failure rate and provide a plan for improvement.
So Cai published this article to explain and admitted that the high failure rate might be due to his own teaching limitations and the rectification plan is please bringing another expert to teach the courses.
Well I understand all of his explanation and also the concerns of the school, but another thing is that university courses are not like high school courses.
They are very, there are so many different courses in different universities and of course all of the courses are set or designed after careful research, yet you do not really know the situation of different students.
You do not really know maybe some adjustments are made to the courses because of the situation of the society or the requirements of certain industries that will in the future accept graduates from this major.
So do you think whether or not you fail a student is somehow subjective?
Well, what was the response?
I mean, I know what I think about this and I'll talk about some research that was done on this topic as well, but I'm curious to know what was the response because he published that, right?
The article, yes. He published it.
So what did people have to say about what he said?
Actually he also noted that the 32 to 48 classes hours allocated for these courses was insufficient and he did not lower the difficulty of the teaching or exams to actually maintain that he's teaching quality.
I think the dilemma lies in the fact that to maintain the quality of education and the teachers can't make the exams easier, right?
But at the same time, no one wants to see 30% of the students unable to pass.
So there are a lot of discussion on these things and most people thought this responsible and restrict teacher worth respect.
So at the same time, people are questioning the changes in teaching management and the whole management of the allocation of the course time on these courses.
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the elements that we have to think about.
I think the initial response when you see a 30% failure rate, the initial response is it's either the students fault because they're being lazy and not studying or it's the teachers fault for not being able to teach the material effectively.
But one thing that we didn't think about or at least I didn't think about is how many hours does the teacher actually have to convey this information to the students and how much time does the student do the students have to absorb and learn this information?
That's another big factor as well.
That is an interesting factor yet if we take a look at all the three different courses.
Ancient Chinese language, ancient Chinese literature, classical Chinese literature studies with amount of time between 32 hours to 48 class hours, how much or how sufficient you are teaching is definitely one thing.
But another thing is how much knowledge are you expecting the students to actually grasp, to actually master and that would be included in the designing of the courses.
Let's just say if I want them to recite around 10 articles, 10 ancient Chinese articles, or if I want them to be able to write a Chinese passage in traditional Chinese language, that's two different requirements and that would again lead to a different level of failing results.
That's what I meant when I say whether or not a student can pass can be a little bit subjective.
The thing is when we are saying that okay who's fault it is and I remember my thesis tutors once said that they don't actually want to make things difficult for students.
However, if the students content doesn't meet the requirements, that is the thing, it is irresponsible both to the student and to the teacher actually.
After all because the teacher is the one who has to approve the thesis or maybe in this case to approve that you are grasping all of the knowledge that I teach you are in this course.
So if I approve you with the content that you get which is not that sufficient, I don't think it is good for both the teacher and the students because they are not really know what is going to do with this knowledge.
Yeah, I think if we just in a vacuum without considering or diving deep into other factors that failure rate of 30%, it seems to be too high.
Even if we consider all factors, it's still too high.
I was looking because I wanted to know, that's just my opinion but I'm not an expert so I wanted to know what experts thought about this.
So I looked up idra.org, that's the Intercultural Development Research Association.
In a group of educators from that organization, they talked about it at length and they had a lot of extensive discussions and they agreed that 20% is where the school administrators really must seriously assess the situation and also they think 20% failure rate is where the school...
Already too high. Not just too high.
They think in their opinion that's where the school needs to intervene.
The school needs to step in and talk with the professor, maybe talk with the students and try to figure out what the problem is.
They said 20% and again that's just one group of educators making a decision together but this is 30%, that's 10% higher than what they agreed.
This is very interesting because it reminds me of my university years and I want to ask both of you because I feel like we enter university in a really different period of time and I was a bit curious because for me to start with, I was not particularly interested in my major back in university and I figured I would not be working in that field basically by the end of the first
year, by my freshman year.
So the second, third and fourth year, I already know I was actually at the cruise mode.
I would pass and that's basically what I require myself to do.
So pass, get the diploma and do some other things.
That is why I spend a lot of time, for example, learning English and also taking part in competitions and stuff.
I didn't put a lot of time in learning my major but it's not the case for everyone and also not everyone could figure out whether or not or could be so, so affirmed about not working in this industry.
So that is a relatively extreme situation for me but what happened for me was that some of the teachers when they know my plan, they are quite tolerant quote unquote about my attitude and they said as long as you pass the exam, it is fine and by the end or I feel like it's around two weeks or four weeks to the exam, they would do something in Chinese called Hua Zhongdian.
Telling you what are the important stuff of this course.
Of course, you still have to learn the important stuff.
You still have to equip yourself with the knowledge of those points yet it's kind of like lowering the burden of my academic work.
Instead of learning the entire book, maybe I select 50% of the chapters and I learn them, I pass the test and I know the basic knowledge required for that course.
What's the situation for your universities?
Well for me, I think it was a different attitude if I compare how people think about university in Canada versus let's use Korea as an example because I lived there for so long and I also taught in Korean universities.
In Canada, the idea of university is not that it's overly difficult, it's not that it's overly easy, there's no real discussion about whether it's too hard or too soft, if you will.
It's known to be challenging, it's a four year degree depending on what you're studying, of course, but that's Canada.
It's not really a discussion per se.
In Korea, I think it's a similar situation to what happens in China because in Korea they have the college entrance exam, it's called the Sunung.
Just like in China, the students of the Gaokao all the way up until the end of high school, their lives are focused on doing one thing and that's achieving a high score on that Sunung exam just like the Gaokao because that can determine a big part of your future.
Whether that's fair or not, that's a completely different discussion.
So when students get to university and I'm not quoting any source here, I'm just saying what I heard and what I saw from being a teacher in university.
When the students enter into university, it's kind of like, finally.
Now we can relax. And I taught freshmen and I taught seniors and I remember in the senior year, one student told me, I'm not going to be able to come to your class that often because I'll be spending my time looking for a job.
And I thought, what? You're not going to come to class?
This is okay? And it was okay by the university to allow absences in class so that the student in their senior year could take time to go to interviews and things like that.
So I think just generally speaking, there's this idea that, okay, high school is over, that huge Gaokao pressure is done, that huge Sunung pressure is done.
Now at least in our freshman year, we can chill out a little bit.
Do you think that's fair to say?
That's quite similar in China as well.
Especially for a lot of the parents and relatives who will tell these students, you will just need to work hard at these certain three years.
Oh, they're lying. That's not true.
They're only saying that to make you work harder and study harder.
After actually entering university, do you have to at least pass the exams and you still face the competition?
Well, yeah, it's not a four-year festival or anything like that.
It's still school. It's still school.
But the general perception is it's a little bit easier.
It's kind of a traditional view on students getting to this college entrance exam and then getting to college.
So under this kind of influence of this belief that you can totally relax after the exam, after you get into a college, some students start to indulge themselves as soon as they enter their universities.
Party, you mean? Yeah, something like that and becoming totally absorbed in these leisure activities.
The reason I'm asking different students or different university experiences and styles is because ultimately the reason we're asking this question or we are discussing whether or not courses should be stricter, maybe whether or not universities should raise their requirement for graduation is because we want to ask, what do students want to achieve in universities?
What do universities want the society to receive?
What's the graduates should be like?
And that is actually a really hard to answer question.
We started off this discussion talking about the 30% failure rate for this one particular professor, but there's a flip side to that coin.
I looked at UC Berkeley because I wanted to know, what are the average scores of people who are studying at Berkeley?
That's one of the best known schools in the world, right?
So this is from the San Francisco Chronicle.
Nearly two thirds of all grades given to undergraduates at UC Berkeley were A's or A- in 2022.
That's representing a significant increase from about a decade ago.
Think about that. Two thirds of all grades given to undergraduates were A's or A-.
That's a huge success rate for the students.
Data published by UC Berkeley shows that while the grade inflation, and they call that grade inflation when the grades go up, it accelerated really quickly during the pandemic.
It was a prolonged trend, of course, and the average grades at Berkeley inched higher each year over the past 10 years.
And about 64% of grades given to undergraduates, A's or A-s, and Berkeley defended that by saying that they've become increasingly selective during their student selection processes.
Meaning Berkeley is saying, hey, we're selecting the best of the best of the best students.
That's why they're getting A's.
Everybody's getting an A.
That's why everybody's getting an A- because these are the smartest kids in the country.
And they deserve that. And I feel like that situation is a bit similar here in China for the top universities, like for example, Qinghua University, Peking University.
If you go to these universities, you can sense that students, even the students that be encouraged that, oh, after the three year of high school study, you do not have to work that hard anymore.
They still work pretty, pretty hard.
And they are performing really well academically.
And I think partly because they are, like you said, the best students in the country, and they figured out what they want a bit faster than other students.
People grow in different pace, and that is definitely okay.
But academically, if you have already figured out what you want in college, it will make your life easier, especially in terms of whether or not you would seek further education or find a job.
So I feel like a one solution fit all kind of way of solving the problem might be a bit too rigid.
And it still is up to different universities, different majors, and different students to figure out what they want.
But one thing for sure, 30% is a bit too high.
Yeah, 30% is a bit too high.
And also Berkeley's 13 percentage point increase in grades from 10 years ago also feels a bit too high.
Inflation. Does it not?
But yes, we've been mentioning this number 30%.
Let's get back to the fact of what students want to get or what teachers want them to get.
This teacher in this story, it's high.
He also said he could lower the difficulty of the exam and reduce the amount of knowledge he teaches based on the class hours.
But it will influence the employment and graduate school entrance exam when he did not or when the students did not master enough knowledge.
So I actually had a, I think a similar experience.
I don't want to make myself sound indifferent, but the fact is 30% failed while 70% passed.
70% is not low. Neither is 30%.
There was a point in English grammar, I think, back then, I believe it was something like subjunctive voice at that point that the teacher assumed we had already learned in previous lessons when I was in university.
But I was surprised to realize that I hadn't studied it very thoroughly or systematically or I just didn't listen to the class.
What was it called? Subjunctive voice?
Subjunctive voice? I've been speaking English for a long time and I don't even know what that is.
Anyway, this is kind of a tense or a grammar.
Anyway, the result was that I felt quite panicked during the lesson.
So same idea in this case.
If the teacher lowers the standards based on the failure rate, is that fair to that 70% who passed?
Should they get enough knowledge that they supposed to get?
And would it really help them in their future studies or even in their professional lives if they lowered the standard of the knowledge that they can get?
That is also a good point.
So for me personally, I feel like we can have some really strict schools and also some relatively the kind of school that encourage you to experience life a little bit and do other things on this side.
As long as there are different choices, I am fine.
But dear listeners, you definitely have the right to pick your answer.
And if you want to share with us your ideas about this specific topic, you can leave us a comment in the comment area or send us an email to roundtablepodcast at qq.com.
And you're listening to Roundtable.
Coming up next, it's that time again.
Roundtable is hard to heart.
This is where I take your voice memos and turn them into a conversation.
So grab a cozy drink, settle in, and let's connect on a deeper level.
You ask, we answer. Roundtable, heart to heart.
It's the hour of Roundtable with myself, Neil Holen, Steve Hatherly, and Yu Shen.
And welcome to Heart to Heart, a special space where your voice takes center stage.
Each message, each question is a window into your world.
And today, I'm honored to step into that space with you, Caroline.
Let's hear what you want to say.
Hello, Roundtable team.
This is Caroline, an English teacher from Wuhan, Hubei province.
I've been a loyal fan of your podcast for two years now.
I want to express my gratitude to all the hosts, He Yang, Lai Ming, Josh, Li Yi, Yu Shen, Ding Heng, and the previous host, Huang Shan, for your contributions in making such a high quality podcast for English learners.
I especially like to mention Neil Honglin, who has been my favorite host.
Your energetic voice always lifts me up when I feel exhausted.
I can always resonate with the quotes you share on motivational Monday.
I also really enjoy Xin Yu.
I imagine you must be a very elegant lady.
And of course, I also like you, Stephen.
Your perspectives on such a wide range of topics are always interesting and engaging, effectively expanding my horizons.
Recently, I received a high score on my IELTS exam.
I passed it a month ago with an overall score of 8.5.
And I hope my personal story can inspire other listeners who are working so hard on improving their English.
Lastly, I'd love to seek some suggestions from you as fantastic English speakers on how to further improve my speaking, particularly regarding my accent.
I'd love to hear personal stories from you as outstanding ESL learners about how you've overcome obstacles in your own language learning journeys.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Caroline, for being such an expert on the host list of Roundtable.
Thank you so much for doing that.
And thank you for enjoying my motivational Monday quotes, because sometimes I feel like I'm too positive.
Some people say I'm too positive sometimes, but I'm glad that with all of those quotes, I can give you a little bit of energy and happiness in your daily life.
And when it comes to your question, to begin with, I didn't realize you have problem with your own accent until you mention it yourself.
I understand you perfectly.
And the way you speak is quite logical.
You express your ideas clearly enough.
And I feel that is the most important thing when it comes to learning a language.
And I always have has already proved that she got an 8.5, which means that is a remarkable achievement and she is good at English, no matter it's about writing, reading or speaking.
So I think when she was mentioning accent, I think many Chinese English learners struggled with pronunciation and felt self-conscious about their accent.
But I don't think that is a huge problem for a lot of people as long as you can communicate with each other.
Have an accent isn't a bad thing, I would say.
Or sometimes it is an inevitable thing because it's also a reflection of your unique background or identity.
It has something to do with your own language and the environment that you're living in.
So instead, I think clarity is even more important.
I think this is also why you got an 8.5 on an IELTS.
But I want to know what is the perspective of an English, previous English teacher?
Caroline, is it? Caroline, here's my advice.
Don't worry about your accent.
Here's why. I'm from Canada and Canada has a lot of native English speakers, but Canada also has almost as many non-native English speakers.
And here's my point. Native English speakers are used to hearing English being spoken without a perfect accent.
We're used to it. We've grown up with it.
And it's not strange to us.
It's not funny to us. It's perfectly natural.
So don't focus too much on your accent.
That's something that you're probably going to have forever because you're a native Chinese speaker and there's nothing wrong with that.
So don't pursue a perfect English accent.
Just pursue other things in English like your favorite expressions and study through your favorite forms like music or movies or news or whatever.
A round table, of course, would be our number one suggestion.
Forget about worrying about your accent.
We're used to it. We hear all different types of accents all the time.
And I was thinking, if you think reversely, if you're talking to a foreigner speaking Chinese, will you require them to speak perfect Chinese?
I hope not. So pronunciation, right?
It's the same. Yes. And for me, when I was first on round table, I think about, well, I think about pronunciation a little bit.
I would look into different pronunciation of the word, but only one I do not know how to pronounce that word.
And later on, I started to, like Steve said, focus on expressions.
I will write down key sentences that I'd like to use and pretend that I thought about them on spot to show that, see, she said something smart.
And then I realized what's important is not that.
That's not why people are listening to it.
People are listening to round table because of the dynamic discussion, because of the real stories we tell, because of the fun opinion from a Chinese perspective that we provide.
And that is what you can do as a Chinese person speaking English.
You can provide a Chinese perspective to your friends.
And when you are speaking Chinese, well, speaking English, the accent is the least thing that you have to worry about.
And let me be clear, you do not have a strong accent at all.
So no worries there. And that brings us to the end of today's round table.
We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's topics.
Leave us a comment wherever you listen to your podcast.
Until next time, I'm New Hong Lin with Yusheng and Steve.
