Okay, Hania, hand me the red wire.
Red wire incoming.
Okay, now the yellow wire.
Yellow wire incoming.
Okay, now the juice box.
Juice box incoming.
Ah, delicious.
Okay, Hania, all the wires for this old gaming system are hooked up to the TV.
We should be ready to turn it on.
So you just found this old game box at a garage sale?
Yeah!
It even came with an old game!
Let's play!
Welcome to Cara Crop, Temple Breaker Inner.
Temple Breaker Inner?
Oh, yeah.
This was a super popular video game series when I was young.
Hey, cadets.
It's me, Kara Kropp, famous adventurer and Temple Breaker Inner.
Glad you could join me on my latest quest.
Wow.
She's wearing the shiniest shorts I've ever seen.
These are my adventure shorts.
They're flexible, breathable, fireproof, waterproof, tigerproof, and stain resistant.
Do they have pockets?
No.
Why don't they have pockets?
That seems really useful to have.
Who designed my outfit anyway?
Level 1.
The Queen's Temple.
Okay, cadets, there's precious artifacts in this ancient temple.
To get them, we're going to break in.
Follow me.
But what about all the signs that say do not enter and the rope that is clearly trying to keep us out?
Use your machete.
Whoa, look at all that cool ancient writing on that temple wall.
First step, blow up the wall.
Now we've broken in.
There was literally a door right there.
Watch out for guards.
Kick them if you see them.
Those aren't guards.
They're ornamental vases.
I can't catch them fast enough.
Stop kicking, Kara.
At last, we've reached the queen's crypt.
The more artifacts meant to be left undisturbed that you can shove into your bag, the better.
That one wasn't important.
Something seems really off about this game.
Oh no, the walls are caving in.
Must be the queen's curse.
Or, you know, structural damage from the dynamite you used to blow a hole in that wall.
Good call.
Let's dynamite the temple to stop the curse.
One, two... Okay, pause.
You need a timeout, Cara Crop Top.
What do you mean?
We were about to beat the level.
It seems like you were just stealing and breaking.
No, you misunderstood.
I am excavating.
These artifacts should be in a museum or at a university so people can study them.
But why do you get to decide this?
Those aren't your artifacts.
Look, I know my game is a little extra.
There's more action than in real life.
But I'm based on actual explorers.
They would daringly travel far and wide to enter old temples and pyramids or do massive digs.
They'd find amazing treasure to put in museums back in their homelands.
That's how it's always been.
Maybe it's time to change that.
Look, we're about to do a whole episode on what happened to treasures from ancient Egypt.
Why don't you come along?
You might learn something.
What, like a bonus level?
Sure.
I'm in.
Um, but do you mind if I change first?
My adventure shorts are giving me a massive wedgie.
Ugh.
This is Forever Ago from APM Studios.
I'm Joy Dolo, and my co-host today is Hania from Lake Forest, California.
Hey, Hania.
Hi, Joy.
Today we're talking about ancient Egypt, a period that started about 5000 years ago, way before electric lights, pirate ships or even printed books.
This civilization lasted for more than 3,000 years, so a long time.
And in that span, the Egyptian people did a ton of amazing things.
They invented a system of mathematics.
They planted and grew crops to feed lots of people.
They built huge temples and pyramids without any of the cranes or diggers or bulldozers we use today.
They wrote in hieroglyphics and made lots of art.
Honey, when I say ancient Egypt, what comes to your mind?
Well, I've been to the pyramids and I like learning about it and I'm from there, so.
Oh, very cool.
So you've seen those big pyramids in real life.
Are they just as big as they seem like they are?
They're way bigger.
Are they really?
What's like one cool memory you have from that trip?
I went when I was a baby to see the pyramids, so I don't really remember, but my mom has lots of pictures and it's like with my brothers and them and like my dad was holding me.
I go every summer because all of my family lives there.
Oh, cool.
When I think of ancient Egypt, I think of pharaohs and pyramids and that famous golden mask of King Tutankhamen.
But one cool thing about Egypt is that it's one of the oldest countries in the world.
Unlike lots of other ancient civilizations we learn about, it's still around today.
Instead of starting our story way back in ancient times, let's talk about something that happened in Egypt recently.
A parade.
A parade.
Ooh, I love a parade.
Where there floats marching bands, some important person doing that weird wave, where only the hand moves and the arm is stiff as a statue.
No, this parade was a little different.
This was a really big story in the news.
It happened in 2021 in Cairo.
That's the capital of Egypt.
Lots of people were interested in this parade, in large part because the guests of honor at this parade were old, like really old, like thousands of years old.
There was this celebration of a new museum that was opening right the Mummy's Parade, where they were moving the old mummies from the old museum and moving it to the new museum.
That's Noura Tarabiya.
She's a university student who was living in Cairo at the time.
She says the parade was celebrating the National Museum of Egyptian Civilization, a new museum of Egyptian history.
It would house lots of important artifacts from ancient Egypt and 22 mummified people, right in the heart of the land where these people once lived.
And it was a huge parade and there was a lot of celebrations and fanfare.
And I began thinking about, well, why doesn't this museum have everything?
Why doesn't it have so much of the actual iconic findings from ancient Egyptian history?
She was thinking of things like the bust of Nefertiti.
It's a super famous statue of Queen Nefertiti's head, neck and chest, carved more than 3000 years ago.
Or the Rosetta Stone, which is this big slab of rock with writings that helped language experts learn to translate hieroglyphs.
They're both in museums in Europe instead of in Egypt.
And then I started reading more about it, about the role of Egyptians in finding these things and how they were snubbed by the English or foreign archaeologists and how these archaeologists were credited with it.
And I don't know, it got to me.
Noor says it made her upset that Egyptians helped unearth these precious treasures, but Europeans got all the credit and often kept the artifacts for themselves.
I'd be mad too.
So how did this happen?
Finally, I found a way into the studio.
It's like a fortress.
Do you not understand how doors work?
Wait, are you wearing my sweats and bathrobe?
These are yours.
It literally says joy on the pocket.
Oh, I guess I am.
I use my breaking in skills to excavate this outfit from a closet back there.
Check it out.
These sweats have pockets.
I know.
They're my sweats.
I stuffed my pockets with pens, paper, and more pens, so I'm ready to learn.
By the way, do you mind if I power up with this turkey leg I found on the ground?
Ugh, you're eating a turkey leg from the ground?
It's how old-timey video game characters powered up.
Don't think too hard about it.
So, what'd I miss?
We were just talking about how all these important artifacts from ancient Egypt ended up in the museums in other countries.
Thanks to fearless explorers like me, sometimes it was actually the military.
Let's start with one of the earliest examples, that Rosetta Stone we were just talking about.
The French army found it in 1799 when they were invading Egypt.
They quickly realized it was a big deal.
Hey, this rock has ancient writing on it.
That is a big deal.
See?
The stone had writing in three different languages ancient Egyptian, ancient Greek and hieroglyphs.
At this point, people had no idea how to read hieroglyphs, because the language was forgotten long ago.
Just like my Etsy password.
But since the message was pretty much the same in all three languages, they could use the other languages to figure out the hieroglyphs.
Unlike my Etsy password, which no one will ever figure out.
Why didn't I write it down?
It was like they broke the code.
It meant that eventually, scholars were able to read lots of writings from ancient Egypt and learn more about what life was like back then.
Cool.
They leveled up their language skills.
I bet that came in handy on future Temple breaking in missions, right?
Wait, you're good at breaking in.
Could you break into my Etsy account?
There's a knitted Dumbledore doll that I really need for somebody's gift.
And that somebody is me.
Not long after this, the British beat the French army and took the Rosetta Stone.
Eventually, they shipped it to London, where it still is today.
Safe and sound in a museum, so people can keep learning from it.
Mission accomplished, cadets.
Let's all eat some candy for my pockets to celebrate.
Pocket mint, anyone?
Hmm?
Well, another way to look at it is that a super cool and important piece of history was taken from the place and people it came from.
But this was just one example.
Lots of stuff eventually left Egypt, in large part because of archaeologists.
One of the most famous was a British guy named Flinders Petrie.
Hello.
I'm so glad you could meet me.
Flinders is the name.
Archaeology is the game.
Finding cool stuff is my claim to fame.
Flinders was very good at what he did.
He helped develop super accurate ways to document ancient findings.
Not to brag, but I'm sort of the Harry Styles of archaeological note-taking.
And he changed how people dug up stuff.
Instead of using big shovels to find really big things, they started digging small amounts very slowly, so they wouldn't miss smaller artifacts too.
Slur and steady wins the race, I say.
I'm like the tortoise in that story.
If the tortoise was also a super famous archaeologist with a really cool beard.
It is a pretty cool beard.
Right?
Flinders started working in Egypt in the late 1800s, a time before planes or phones or cars, when he traveled by ship and wrote letters and read them by oil lamplight.
And Petrie had a unique interest in Egypt.
Here's Alice Stevenson.
She's a professor at University College of London.
He's not interested in the big fancy stuff.
He's interested in the small and the everyday.
She says, instead of just looking for big statues or jewelry, he wanted to find cups or tools and other items used by everyday people.
And we often say that.
You know, we have talked about Flinders Petrie as a hero in archaeology, because it means you can look at everyday lives.
You can do much more interpretation about how everyday people lived on the basis of pottery and you know unassuming, unimpressive looking things.
But Alice says there was another reason Flinders might have gone after smaller everyday artifacts.
Because it's just easier to get that sort of material out of Egypt than it is the big fancy stuff.
You see, the thing was even in Flinders Day.
You weren't supposed to just dig up and take stuff from other countries.
There were rules against it.
It's true.
It wasn't a game of Flinders Keepers.
Get it?
Because my name, Flinders, like finders.
Oh, we got it.
Great.
Just making sure.
So Flinders came up with a plan.
He made a deal with the person in charge of ancient artifacts in Egypt, who happened to be another foreigner, a French guy named Gaston Mespero.
Say, Gaston, I have an idea.
Oh, me too.
Invisible baguettes.
You could take them anywhere.
What?
No, definitely not that.
My idea is, you know how you have so many cool things buried in Egypt?
Yep.
And you know how you don't have all the time or money or expertise to dig them all up?
Also, yep.
What if—just hear me out here—
What if I dig them up and we split the findings?
Of course, the really big cool stuff would stay in Egypt.
But, you know, if there are doubles of anything, or like if there's stuff you don't want...
Then I could just take it and send it back to England.
What do you say, Gaston?
Hmm.
It's no invisible baguette, but I like it.
The idea was called partage, from the French word to share.
It meant the British would help excavate stuff, but they only keep some of it.
Wait.
Pause here.
Why were a French guy and a British guy making up rules for Egypt?
Great question, Cara Crop Drop and Roll.
During this time, Britain and France were both colonialist empires.
That means they were busy trying to conquer other lands so they could control the resources and the people there.
Often these countries would force those people to speak their language and adopt their way of life.
Egyptians fought back, but it would take nearly 100 years for many of these countries to become free again.
In the 1800s, France and England had both been fighting over Egypt.
So at the time, they both felt it was their right to make decisions for the people there.
Egyptians themselves didn't get much say in things.
That doesn't seem fair.
Yeah, the more you think about it, the less sense it makes.
Just like invisible baguettes.
I mean, if you put a tomato on one, would it just look like a floating tomato?
Other countries ended up with rules like partage, too.
So people like Flinders had a legal way to take artifacts, but even so, not everyone followed the rules.
We'll tell you all about that in a minute.
Right now, let's take a break and play...
Today we're looking at first system of writing, first evidence of cheese and first depiction of juggling.
Which do you think came first, which came second, and which came most recently?
So, Hania, which one is oldest in your mind?
The first system of writing.
Pencils must have been one of the first things created, I imagine, huh?
Yeah, but they used like the ink back then to write stuff.
Oh, yeah.
Maybe since hieroglyphics was made back then a long time ago, like they used that.
So I agree.
I think writing was probably one of the first ones.
So now we have left is the first evidence of cheese and first depiction of juggling.
So which one do you think came second and which one is most recent in history?
I think the one that came second was the first depiction of juggling.
Ah.
And then the first evidence of cheese.
Oh, okay.
So we have writing, juggling, and then cheese.
So why juggling in second and third is cheese?
Well, cheese is like there's multiple flavors and like they couldn't have thought of all of those back then.
Right, right.
You could, like, think about new types of cheeses, like, anytime.
And what about juggling?
Why do you think that's right in the middle?
Because, like, back then, like, in shows, like in, like, circuses, like, they would do that.
And maybe it was, like, a tradition of it.
Yeah, that's right.
There were circuses and traveling groups that would do juggling.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Just to recap first we have the first system of writing and then depiction of juggling, and then the most recent, we think is the first evidence of cheese.
We'll get to the answers in just a bit.
If you have ideas for First Things First or topics you'd like to hear us cover on the show, please send them to us.
Go to foreverago.org slash contact.
History is everywhere.
What do you want to explore?
Tell us.
Again, that's foreverago.org slash contact.
Did you know that ancient Egyptians invented the first toothpaste?
Ancient Egyptians cared a lot about dental hygiene.
Toothpicks have been found next to mummified people in their tombs.
And they even made hard candies out of frankincense myrrh, cinnamon and honey to cover up bad breath.
Frankincensey!
Early ingredients of Egyptian toothpaste included powdered ox hooves, eggshells, and bits of stone.
Gritty.
These ox hooves really make my smile shine.
Archaeologists found a detailed Egyptian toothpaste recipe from the 4th century that calls for rock salt mint, dried iris flowers and 20 grains of pepper.
When this recipe was found, about 20 years ago, Dr. Heinz Neumann, a dentist, tried the recipe.
He told the newspaper The Telegraph that it was painful and made his gums bleed, but...
Afterwards, my mouth felt fresh and clean.
Now that's some historically fresh breath.
Thanks so much to all our listeners for sending in suggestions.
We'll be right back.
All right, Hania, let's reveal which of our first things first is actually the oldest.
Oh my gosh.
You are right, Hania.
Really?
Yeah, you got them all right.
You got them all right.
So earliest system of writing, that's the first one.
That was the oldest in history.
The earliest writing is found on clay tablets from Mesopotamia dating to around 3200 BC or more than 5000 years ago.
This system of writing was called cuneiform, and it wasn't a language.
It was more like a multipurpose alphabet, a system of recording words and word sounds that was used by multiple ancient cultures at different times.
Actually, in sixth grade we learned about it and we got to make clay artifacts and make up sentences.
Really?
Oh, that's so neat.
So you already know about cuneiform.
The writing was made by pressing a wedge-shaped wooden stylus into small tablets made of clay.
The tablets were dried in the sun and were sometimes wrapped in a little clay envelope if the message was private.
There are hundreds of these little tablets preserved from archaeological sites, and if you were thinking these might be full of ancient secrets well, they're mostly business receipts, letters back and forth between merchants and tax documents.
So we got the first one right, and guess what?
We got the second one right as well.
Second up in history was earliest depiction of juggling.
An ancient Egyptian tomb from around 1994 to 1781 BCE around 4000 years ago contains wall paintings that depict female acrobats dancing and tossing multiple balls in the air.
Jugglers and acrobats were popular entertainers in the royal court of ancient Egypt.
The pharaohs and their guests enjoyed having dinner and a show, much like moi.
The tomb paintings are a way to show off that the person buried there was rich and fancy during his lifetime, but were also there to provide entertainment in the afterlife.
See, you were talking about circus stuff too, so you're right on that one as well.
I'm surprised.
You're surprised?
I'm not.
It sounds like you know your stuff.
You know your Mesopotamia.
You know your juggling.
And apparently, you know your cheese as well.
The world's oldest cheese was found at an archaeological site in China, and it dates to around 1500 BCE.
That means the cheese is around 3,600 years old.
Talk about aged.
The cheese was buried in a grave along with mummified people who were sent to the afterlife with a boat and some cheese for the journey.
The extremely aged version of the cheese is hard and crumbly, but when it was fresh it would have been soft like ricotta or fresh goat cheese.
You're listening to Forever Ago.
I'm Joy Dolo.
I'm Hania.
So, Hania, what stood out to you so far?
Uh, well, I'm happy to be on the podcast, and I'm very surprised I got all the questions right.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, what stood out to me is, like I didn't know that you have a background already with some archaeological writings.
How about you, Kara?
What have you learned?
Well starting out.
A few hundred years back, the British and the French fought over control of Egypt.
Yep.
And during that time, they started taking stuff from that place.
Right.
And this one guy, Flinders Petrie, he came up with a deal that let foreigners take even more stuff.
Uh-huh.
And Joy's sweats are super cozy.
You don't mind if I keep these, right?
Oh, I mind.
I very much mind.
What are you eating now, Kara?
A baguette.
All that talk of invisible bread made me crave some.
But that's not invisible.
It will be soon, am I right?
Ta-da!
It disappeared.
You'd be surprised how many calories it takes to be a famous breaker-inner.
Anyhoo, when we left off that deal, partage made it easier for archaeologists to take stuff from Egypt.
But not everyone was there to follow the rules.
Lots of people started digging up and taking stuff illegally too, without leaving anything for the Egyptian museums.
And often people would have Egyptians who knew the land really well help them find stuff, but they wouldn't give those people any of the credit.
So it would be like beating a tough level on two-player mode, but then player one doesn't share any of the points or power-ups with player two.
So devious.
Super devious.
What was that?
Oh, just breaking into a nut.
These peanut shells are so tough.
Please continue.
Part of the reason Europeans were so gaga for all things Egypt was that so much of that ancient civilization was still intact.
It was just buried in sand.
As people heard reports of explorers finding beautiful vases and elaborate jewelry and impressive sculptures, more people wanted some of their own.
Yeah, it is really amazing stuff.
It helped people imagine a time of wonders and wealth and kings and queens, even though that was only a small piece of what ancient Egypt was really like.
Jeez, it makes me want to go back and stop these Europeans from taking all this stuff.
Well, Egyptians did push back.
For example, they argued with the British over the discovery of King Tutankhamen's tomb in 1922, and the findings ended up staying in Egypt.
And Egyptian scholars argued more treasures should stay in the country.
But it was hard when these powerful, rich foreigners kept coming to dig things up.
And one thing the British were very interested in digging up was mummified human remains.
You've probably seen pictures or drawings or cartoons of these.
Mummified people were wrapped in these white bandages as part of an important religious ceremony.
When ancient Egyptians did this ceremony, the people's bodies would dry out.
So, instead of rotting away and breaking down and becoming part of the earth again like most bodies, these mummified bodies would stay in one piece and last hundreds of years.
Oh, you're talking about mummies.
I've seen those.
Yeah, but calling them mummies makes it seem like they were always these wrapped things.
And the word mummy is associated with monsters or villains.
It's important to remember these were actual people, like your great-great-great-triple-dimple-super-duper-long-ago-grandparent.
That's why we like to call them mummified people instead of just mummies.
Right.
And in the 1800s, a lot of Europeans were obsessed with mummified people.
They would write ghost stories about them, make up myths about them.
They would even take them from their graves and have unwrapping parties.
What's an unwrapping party?
It's pretty much what it sounds like.
Europeans would bring a mummified person to their country, then invite a bunch of people to come watch them unwrap the bandages from the body.
They said it was for science, but the bodies would often get damaged in the process.
Sometimes they would even give guests pieces of the cloth wrappings as souvenirs.
It's really upsetting when you think about it.
I'll say.
Aren't they worried about an ancient curse?
Where's my dynamite?
I feel safer with it nearby.
You can explode a curse, right?
No.
No more blowing up things, Kara.
But for real.
Aren't there books and movies and all that about these curses?
Gives me the chilly willies just thinking about it.
Some historians think a lot of that stuff actually started with these unwrapping parties.
It's believed that a writer went to one of these parties, then decided to write a story about a mummified person getting revenge.
Then someone else picked up the idea, and someone else wrote about it, and on and on.
Even Louisa May Alcott wrote a curse story.
Hold up.
Louisa May Alcott, the author of Little Women, aka my favorite book...
Hold up.
Little Women is your favorite book?
Hold up.
Can't you tell I'm a Louisa Mays stan?
I'm totally a Joe.
Hold up.
Video game characters read books?
You'd be surprised.
I have a lot of time to read between Breaking In and more Breaking In.
So people must have really been into these curse stories.
Yeah, there's drama suspense, thrills and chills, but it might have also been a way for these European writers to work through hard feelings they had about what they'd done.
Here's Professor Alice Stevenson again.
It's a way of expressing fear of the unknown, fear of the other, about retribution and, I suspect, guilt.
I think there is guilt that, you know, you're desecrating graves.
And it's not otherwise talked about in any other way.
It goes into fiction in this sort of way.
Some people back then were talking about how white Europeans treated these ancient people's bodies.
There's an article from 1827 in the Freedman's Journal, written by one of its founders, a Black writer and activist named John Brown Rustworm.
After seeing one of these mummified bodies, he wrote 'I could not but mourn her present degradation?
"'Have they not been torn from the vaulted sepulchres "'and exhibited to a gazing world?'
Have not they too been bought and sold?
Rustworm saw a connection between how these dead bodies were stolen and put on display and how black people were kidnapped from Africa and forced into slavery.
So maybe the curse stories were popular because white Europeans were feeling guilty about how they treated these people from ancient Egypt.
That's one idea, yeah.
And so maybe my fear of curses has to do with all the temple-breaking inning I've done.
Could be.
Note to self.
Bring this up with Dr. Mario.
Dr. Mario?
My therapist.
You do therapy too?
I'm impressed.
For a two-dimensional character, you've got a lot of depth.
Thanks.
So I'm getting the sense that the history of studying Egypt is pretty grim.
Well, not totally.
Like my favorite kind of nuts.
It's mixed.
A lot of stuff was taken from Egypt disrespectfully and without permission.
But historians also used these ancient treasures to do some amazing research and they helped spread a love of ancient Egypt far and wide.
Now, lots of people know about the art and culture of this amazing civilization.
So Ahania, I know your family is Egyptian and I just wonder do you feel any connection to the people that created these artifacts?
Yeah, because some of them are like our ancient ancestors, so like I feel like I know them when they made all of that artifacts.
Yeah, it's like having somebody in your family making something that you can look at and relate to.
So you must feel like connected to the things you see in the museums in a way.
Yeah.
So we know that a lot of the artifacts were taken from Egypt and put in other museums around the world.
How do you feel about that, having something of the culture, of your culture, taken and placed in other places?
It's kind of like bad, like you're taking something from like a country that it's part of and it was made in Egypt.
So why would you take it to somewhere else?
Yeah, so the thing is, when you see stuff in a museum, it's important to think about what you're seeing, but also where it came from and how it got there.
Who's telling the story of this object and who didn't get to tell their own story?
Noura Tarabiya, the Egyptian student we heard from earlier, says she really wants people to think about this when they see an Egyptian artifact in a museum.
I think it would be nice if they knew that this isn't necessarily belonging here.
This is actually from a real country that exists.
It's not just something that existed out of nowhere a long time ago and it's over.
This comes from a real country called Egypt that has real people.
In fact, Noura would love to see these objects returned to Egypt and put into that new museum where those mummified people from the parade are.
Some countries like France are already giving some stuff back.
What do you think about that idea, Hania?
Yeah, I agree with her, because they shouldn't be in places like France, when France is not even even close of like to Egypt.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So taking the stuff that actually belongs to that country and bringing it back to the country.
How would they feel if someone did that to them?
You know?
Yeah.
Wow.
You've all given me a ton to think about.
I need to go to some side quests to learn more.
Good luck, care crop.
And please use the.
Never mind.
Finally, I'm starving.
Me too.
Let's open the oven and... I don't see anything.
Perfect.
We did it.
Invisible baguettes.
And they taste great.
So chewy.
So invisible.
So ancient Egypt left us with a lot of amazing objects to study and learn from.
Yeah, but lots of people took advantage of Egypt, and now those objects are spread around the world.
So remember, when you see an ancient Egyptian tomb or vase in a museum, it's not just telling you a story about an old civilization from thousands of years ago.
It's also telling a story about more recent history, too.
Yup, like an invisible baguette, there's way more than meets the eye.
Kara, you're back.
And you used the door.
Hey, I know I just left, but I've been thinking about everything we just learned about the history of ancient artifacts.
And I think people should know more about how things end up in museums.
So I decided to hang up my adventure shorts for good.
My new video game is Kara Crop, Museum Docent.
And I get to wear these super cool cargo pants in my new job.
So many pockets.
That's great, Carracrop.
And look, you have a little name tag and everything.
Oh, and Joy, I have a surprise for you.
I used my temple-breaking-inning skills one last time to break into Etsy and get your password.
You did?
What is it?
Joy's password.
All one word, lowercase.
Ugh, genius.
No wonder I couldn't remember.
Knitted Dumbledore doll, here I come.
This episode was written by Sandon Totten and produced by Nico Gonzalez-Whistler, Molly Bloom and Anna Goldfield.
It was edited by Shayla Farzan.
Sound design and theme song by Mark Sanchez.
We had help from Rosie DuPont, Ruby Guthrie, and Anna Wagle.
Beth Perlman is our executive producer.
Engineering by Mike Boyle and Raul Escobar.
The executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavadi, Joanne Griffith, and Alex Schaffert.
Special thanks to Sanchita Balachandra, Esra Nawar, Christina J Riggs, Noor Tarabiya, Alice Stevenson, Heba Abdel-Gawad.
See you next time.
And thanks for listening.
