Tom Aspinall: The UFC Doesn't Want You To Know This! Jon Jones Wasn't Living Like An Athlete! | The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett

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I'm the number one heavyweight in the world right now.

and I'm scared to fight everybody.

What about John Jones?

I'd be an idiot otherwise.

But now that I understand fear and what it does for me, it just fuels me so much in a way that nothing else can.

So I'll be prepared to do whatever I need to do.

But I just don't like what he's doing because I can't function knowing that I trained for a fight and didn't actually fight somebody.

John Jones is officially retired.

Tom Aspinall is the heavyweight champion of the UFC.

Did you see this coming?

And do you have any idea and when you'll be back in the octagon.

I do, yeah, yeah. Tom, you're the only ever British heavyweight champion of the UFC.

So what advice can you give young men that are struggling to find that sense of purpose?

It takes years to become an overnight success.

I've been going since I was eight years old.

I've been up against so many tests from career -ending injuries to financial struggles to mental struggles.

And at one point, we had three kids at the age of 25, and I had no money.

I mean, my first pro fight, I got 200 quid.

I felt the pressure, trying to be a young guy but having all this responsibility on me.

Having to borrow money from friends to buy nappies for my kids so I could keep living on this dream.

But outlasting people and consistency is massively underrated.

And in today's day and age, people just have a lot of options.

But that obsessiveness of being 100 % focused on something, you win.

Tom, there's this black box in front of me which contains something which represents a pivotal moment in your career.

What is the story behind this?

It was the most devastating thing that happened in my whole career.

so ahead of showing you that interview which we recorded a while ago i wanted to call tom and get his first reaction to the news that he's now the ufc's undisputed heavyweight champion of the world so what i'm about to show you is a conversation i had with tom hours after the news was announced that he's now the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world and then i'm going to play the long form interview that me and tom had several weeks ago right here in the studio enjoy quick one before before we get back to this episode, just give me 30 seconds of your time.

Two things I wanted to say.

The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.

It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24 % of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.

Here's a promise I'm going to make to you i'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as i can now and into the future we're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show thank you tom did you um did you see this coming uh yes but i just didn't expect it um when it happened i expected it so next week i'm going to vegas i'm going for the well they say it's the biggest fight card of the year a fight card called international fight week and i knew that i had some news coming on international

fight week we got wind that john jones is going to retire and they're going to announce it on international fight week but for some reason they announced it um last night i don't know what that reason is it took me by surprise at least um but they announced it last night what was your initial initial honest gut reaction when you found out he was retiring where were you what was your first feeling when you heard that news well i only knew 100 actually last night it was always like rumors of him retiring he's putting stuff out on the media saying that he's retiring because mma especially at elite

level is quite there's not many people like you hear rumors a lot so i heard rumors from people close to him that he's going to retire and that he's not living in like an athlete um who's fighting at the top level anymore and he's not interested and he's not in the gym and etc but I knew that there was going to be a decision made by the UFC coming soon whether he's going to continue and um we got it last night for sure we finally got it confirmed last night so I am uh very happy to get this part of my career behind me in the rearview mirror now but but how did you feel because I think from the conversation we

had which we're going to play in a second it was clear to me that you wanted to have john jones on your record you wanted to fight him what i really want is is the undisputed title that's really what i was chasing the whole time i was never really chasing one guy john jones was always just a bonus because of the store because of the resume that he's got and because of the name that he has and the the status that he holds was in within the sport like he's so well respected i think that would have been a great scalp for me to have on my resume but uh ultimately i was chasing the belt I was chasing

being the number one heavyweight fighter in the world which I am and I can say that I am now especially with John not around and he's retired and that's behind us but um ultimately the thing that I wanted really was was the belt the fact that John's left the sport obviously it would have been better for me career -wise to have that name financially it would have been great as well but um the thing that I was ultimately chasing was a heavyweight title and how do you think about John's decision do you do you view it as a strategic dodge or do Do you view it as a genuine sort of closing of that chapter

of his legacy? I think that he's entitled to do whatever he wants, to be honest. He's done way more in the sport than I have, so he should do whatever he feels is right.

Speaking as just a fighter here, if it was so public, for me personally, I don't know if my ego could take it having not done it.

but that's honestly that's his prerogative I don't hold any ill will against him for it and I'm happy to move on with my career now that it's over because you've got to remember I've not fought for nearly a year now because of this and I've been healthy the whole time I've been in the gym the whole time I've been doing exactly what I'm supposed to do as a high level operating athlete at the elite level so I'm glad that that is behind us now Do you in part I guess take this as a bit of a compliment that there was such huge public pressure for him to fight you, and actually the route that he chose

was to retire instead of fighting you.

I mean, that's quite a compliment for someone of Jon Jones' stature.

I try not to let my ego take control of me.

I could see why people would think that.

But to me, it's just like, maybe when I've retired myself, which is not going to happen in the next couple of years at least, I'll think about that kind of stuff.

but for right now it's just like we've got to focus on another fight, we've got to get me active we've got to get me back out there and do what I'm supposed to be doing, because right now I've been thinking about that whole situation and being held up and frustrated for almost a year and it's not, it's what I love doing I've been held back for the whole time and it's not been very fun, to be honest with you so the ego side of my brain is like I've kind of beaten without fighting him and I did say that, I've said that the whole time that I'm going to retire him without fighting him but I don't

kind of want to harp on on about that really i want to kind of just put that behind me and move forward on my own path now i hear you and you know john jones is a an unpredictable individual so there's still a possibility that that retirement wasn't a legit retirement and that he might get a bit bored and end up you know deciding that he wants to come back and fight you is that something that you would consider if that were to happen i'm sure with where he's at he can like jump the queue you anytime he wants so you know this time a year down the line we'll have another three or four contenders

knocking on for a title shot I'm sure but anytime someone like him wants to step up and say listen I want to fight again they're going to get an immediate title shot so I'm never going to count that out and I'm sure that maybe he's you know I'm in a spot in my career where there's not almost that much footage out there on me maybe he sees something on me in the next few fights and And he thinks, you know what, I can beat this guy.

I'm going to come back and beat him.

So mentally, I'm never counting that out.

I think the fight is always, it could always pop back up and come back around on me.

So that's something that I would obviously accept.

But as I said before, I think a lot of people get it confused over the last kind of 10 months -ish is that I was chasing Jon Jones.

That was never the case.

I was chasing the undisputed heavyweight title.

That's it. So if I do get the opportunity to put Jon Jones on my resume, mate of course i'll i'll accept that with open arms but if not i'm content i'll move forward and i'll uh create my own legacy without him and what what has changed overnight is there as a ufc fan is there anything that i'm unaware of that changes when dana announces you as the undisputed does your contract change does does is there anything that changes other than the fact that you've now got a sort of a clear path and you're now the one being chased you're no longer chasing well i was on uh because i was an interim because i

was a champion in my own right as well So I was already getting a lot of the perks that come with being a champion.

Stuff like pay -per -view points is something that you get when you're a champion.

You also get, you know, pay -per -view points is where you get a cut of the pay -per -view sales.

So I don't want to go into the details on my contracts, of course, but you'll get, if someone pays, you know, $60 for a pay -per -view, you might get $2, you might get $5 per buy.

you might get 10 people different people have different um different perks in the contract so i i was already having that because i was a i was a champion in my own right anyway but yeah not nothing actually really changes just the fact that there isn't two belts anymore in the division which is great there's one face one name and one guy in in the division and to me that is what that's what separates uh mma from other sports other other fight sports at least is that for For example, in boxing, you can have like five, six, seven, eight, even sometimes different organisation.

You've got the WBO, the WBC, the IBO, the IBF, and all these different ones that I don't even know about.

And they all have different champions in each organisation.

Whereas generally speaking, the number one guy in the world is the UFC champion.

And before Jon Jones retired, there was two of us in the division, which is a little bit of a strange conundrum that I wasn't comfortable being in.

I think that there should be one guy in every division.

And now that John's gone, obviously we didn't get to fight about it, which I would have liked.

But at least there's one guy and I'm happy with that moving forward. And who's the number one contender now?

You're now being chased, right?

You were doing a little bit of chasing in terms of trying to get that unified.

But who in your mind is the number one contender now for the heavyweight title belt?

I'm more than happy being chased.

that's fantastic I would rather be the hunted as opposed to the hunter because I've been chasing I don't like chasing fights I like just being the guy and everyone comes to me that's fantastic so most I've actually fought a lot of the top 10 one of the guys I've not fought is Cyril Gagne a French guy that's a fight that I was I was actually chasing that fight a few times before he was he was ducking and diving around himself a little bit so he is due a little bit of a beating off me I look forward to that that um a couple more guys down the rankings a brazilian guy jailton almeida i've not fought

there's a guy i've already beat called uh alexander volkov who's doing really well for himself as well so who knows you never know in the heavyweight division there's a couple of up -and -coming guys who have not mentioned as well so there's some some good fights to be made over the next couple of years for sure if i were to say myself it'd be great to see you fight gone in uh in london or in the uk somewhere um as your next fight do you have any idea what you're doing doing next and when you'll be back in the octagon i do but i also want to keep i also want to keep my job so there's not much i

can say about it to be honest um but yeah yeah i'm gonna be fighting hopefully twice this year that's that's my plan i think i think i've wasted enough time um now so um we're looking for a quick we're looking to get a fight booked quick and it's looking like it's It's going to be, you know, pretty soon anyway.

And then hopefully, if everything goes well in the first one, I'm uninjured, which is, you know, it's easier said than done, you know, getting through a fight with a guy my size and coming out with no injuries.

But if I can do that, I would like to fight at the end of the year as well.

That'd be perfect. And are you off to training now?

You're flying out to Vegas, so I'm assuming you're going to the UFC Center out there and starting training?

training no so I'm training constantly regardless if I've got a fight or not the only thing that changes for me is basically intensity in uh in the sessions but I'm actually going to Vegas for well I am the heavyweight champion of the world so they're going to want me at the big shows uh so I'm gonna yeah I'm gonna be showing my face there doing a little bit of media and stuff I will of course be doing a little bit of training you know just different stuff I'm working with a new sponsor I'm going to be with till the end of my career which is champion so I'll be working with with them out there

and just doing bits for the UFC, meeting fans and doing bits of training, just being around the scene.

I don't often, to be honest, I'm so routine -based and goal -focused that I don't like to leave my home routine and training regiment that often.

So when I go to the US and do things like this, I like to do as much in a short space of time as possible so I can get back to my...

Because I know what I need to do to be good and to win fights.

and uh that's be at home and be in my routine and be focused so i don't like to leave my routine too much and go overseas and do all this other stuff so i'll be killing as many birds with one stone in this trip as possible you're um you're a family man tom i got a real understanding of that in the conversation that i'm about to play um your family very close to you you're a father what's the reaction been like with your your partner your your your kids your your father your your parents over the last couple of hours since you've been crowned as the Undisputed?

To be honest, it didn't really make much of a difference.

I think a lot of people said the same thing outside of my family as well.

It was like, you were kind of the champion anyway.

Because I think the way that Jon Jones played it the last year or so, it just didn't, a lot of people didn't see him as the unified heavyweight champion anyway.

So I think a lot of people close to me, I told my kids this morning, they were just like, not bothered at all.

didn't make the slightest bit of difference i said look i'm only telling you so when your friends tell you at school you'll know and they're like okay fair enough that that was it there was no there was no great reaction to them what did you say to them well it was just my it's mainly my oldest son because my twins they're a little bit too young to really understand they've just turned six so they don't really get it but my oldest son's nine almost um his friends are are following MMA a little bit more.

So he kind of started thinking it's cool now.

So I told my son, I was like, listen, I'll just let you know, John Jones retired.

I'm the undisputed champion now.

I've got, you know, there's one.

And he was just like, oh, okay.

And I was like, I'm just, I know you're not that bothered.

I'll just let you know.

So if your friends say anything, you know.

And he was like, okay, thanks.

John's probably watching this.

He has undoubtedly had one of the greatest careers in the history of the UFC, up there with the likes of Khabib and many of the legends through history.

what would you say to him if he was watching this now that's it's a great question and i don't i don't know if he will be watching this i'm not sure but if if he is i think he's had an amazing career and i think he should enjoy the rest of his life i think if he if he truly feels like he's done enough which he keeps saying that he does he will be at peace he doesn't need me or anybody else to tell him uh how good he's done he should he'll He'll know it himself.

So I hope that he's enjoying his life, he's enjoying his family, and he's celebrating his career because it's been amazing.

Tom, congratulations.

I think I speak on behalf of a lot of Brits and really people all around the world when I say that you're the champion, I think the UFC, especially at the heavyweight division, has really been longing for someone who wants to be active, someone who is seeking the biggest fights, someone who is willing to fight anybody, but also someone that's just really really relatable and i think sends a message to all of all of us that what our class is a very normal guy from humble beginnings can reach the very top of the professional um pyramid as it relates to sports and entertainment so thank you so much

for uh representing the uk in uh uf in the ufc especially the heavyweight level which we've never had before but i will all be rooting for you uh for so many reasons because of who you are but also because of the exciting way that you've conducted yourself in and outside of the octagon so I'm going to let you go and we're going to play the interview now that we recorded a little while ago but yeah going to be watching your career very very closely and I'm going to be ringside whenever you fight next I know there's a lot of people that are going to turn out to support you so thank you so much Tom.

Thank you very much for having me and if you're there as always because we know each other now and I know it's difficult when you know somebody personally personally um any time i fight you gotta strap in be ready for anything because it's heavyweight mma at the highest level and anything can happen so thank you for having me steven and i look forward to uh to seeing you there thank you Tom if i'd met you when you were a kid and i'd asked you what you want to be when you're older what would you have said to me well it depends on the the age of course but i think if you would have asked me from the age

of being nine years old and above i would have said that i'm going to be ufc heavyweight champion at nine years old yeah as soon as i kind of like went to a gym and i realized there's people in this gym who are adults and they don't have a regular job and they're just showing up to the gym every day and fighting every few months and getting money for it, I was literally like, this is what I want to do.

So take me back. So where do you come from?

For someone that doesn't know who you are, they don't know your story, they don't know Tom Aspinall's origin, where'd you come from?

So I'm from a place, I was born in Salford, which is like greater Manchester.

And then I moved to a different part of greater Manchester, a place called Allerton.

There's not a lot of stuff going on there to be honest i mean it's just like a normal working class blue collar place do you know i mean a lot a lot of families like the parents working factories they are mechanics they plumbers and what were your family in that context so my dad originally worked in it he got paid some redundancy money and then he decided to start teaching grappling full -time which we're talking when we're talking like 20 years ago the grappling industry in the uk was non -existent and obviously i was quite a i was a budding but i wasn't i wasn't even like a budding prospect at the time

i'd had no fights at the time but i was training and i was enjoying my training and my dad wanted to spend more time perfecting me to help me do what I enjoy a little bit more.

How come your dad knew about grappling?

Because he's been into martial arts for a lifetime as well.

So was he the inspiration for you to go to the gym the first time and start training?

So it's difficult to say because I had a bit of a blurred line as to where I started actually training martial arts.

So I started training when I was young.

It was my dad's thing more and I just used to go with my dad to spend some time with my dad because I didn't really have much else to do.

But I used to always go down to the gym.

And when I started training, there were no, like, kids classes.

Like, now you can go to the end of the road and there'll be an MMA gym with kids classes on, with 20 kids in the class.

Like, that wasn't my case when I started at eight, nine years old.

Like, I used to go to the gym.

There used to be 10 40 -year -old guys rolling around on the floor with each other.

And I just used to jump in when there was a smaller guy available.

Otherwise, I'd just be, like, kicking the football around the gym or something like that.

like basically i've grown up in in gyms but when i actually started training seriously that was probably when i was like 14 13 14 something like that and was there ever a moment in those early years where you realized or someone said something to you that you can still remember that proved to you that you were better than normal people at this thing i do remember a few instances like i said i used to train with adults even when i was a child and i was quite aware even from being young that the adults were like taking it easy on me you know like they were letting me get position and letting me

do certain things on them and they weren't really trying as much and uh i remember feeling like the adults are starting going harder on me do you if that makes sense does that make sense i remember i used to just have all my own way in training because the adults a lot of the time were like my dad's friends and his students and then they would all I would always be around the gym, so they'd know me and they'd take it easy and stuff like that.

And then I remember, like, a couple of the guys who I trained with, like I said, I was, like, 11, 12 years old.

And I remember a couple of the guys, like, it became a lot more physical training, like, it became a lot more competitive, whereas before they were just, like, letting me do my thing and then they started fighting back a little bit more.

And then I remember thinking, well, I must be all right.

Like, if they're trying...

I remember realizing that people actually started trying against me And then they finish around and look like they'd done a workout a little bit rather than just played with a kid, if that makes sense.

And was that – I'm trying to figure out as well the thing that encouraged you to keep going at that point.

Because at that age, you can end up playing football.

You can end up going and joining this club.

You can end up focusing on some drama class that you're doing.

But there must have been something that kind of held you in this habit.

I mean, I definitely tried all that stuff.

I definitely – I mean, my area is like quite a big rugby area.

so like rugby league we play up there and uh i definitely delved in that a little bit but i just never really was my thing you know i think because my dad and my brother was heavily involved with martial arts and that's just where i always felt like safe to a degree he's like in the gym i know it sounds really weird but i felt like when you're involved in martial arts it's almost like there can be 10 guys in the room and they can all be from different backgrounds, male, female, one guy can be 12 years old, the other guy can be 65 years old, one guy's retired, the other guy's at college, one guy's

black, the other guy's Chinese, it doesn't matter, like when you're in there, none of that matters and everyone just respects each other and gets on regardless of like race, gender, age, what the job is and none of that stuff matters, everyone just respects each other the same and I was always like drawn to that more than anything, and I was always that's why I always felt my most comfortable especially because I was a bit more of a shy kid I felt like I could really express myself through martial arts and something else about martial arts is like because it's an individual sport it's like always

on you if you do well or not and I realized like the more time I put in the more I got out of it like mentally and physically like I would get better the more I did it whereas with team sports especially rugby because that's a team sport I've done the most. Like, there would be games where I personally have had, like, an amazing game, but the team had lost, and I could see the next guy not trying as hard as me.

Or sometimes vice versa.

Sometimes they'd, you know, I'd had a terrible game, but the team had won, and everyone would be really happy, and I'd be like, oh, I had a bad game.

And I couldn't, I could never shake that.

I'd always, like, want to, I always liked...

Control. Control, yeah.

Being in charge of, like, my own thing that MMA in particular is very much that.

It's like, if you're not putting the work in, like you will get exposed.

You will get your ego checked literally on a daily basis if you're not doing what you need to do.

And I love that. Like it gives you a sense of like accountability for just your everyday habits, like your thought process, what you're putting in your body, how much recovery you're getting, how many reps are you doing in the gym?

Everything, like everything is accounted for publicly.

And I quite like that.

I quite love that, actually.

Your mother in this picture, where does she fit into this picture you've painted for me?

And who is she? First of all, she is the nicest woman that has ever walked the face of the earth, I think.

She is such a lovely person.

Yeah, there is literally...

You know when someone says the term, oh, they've not got a bad bone in the body, that literally applies to my mum.

But as far as... So my last fight that I had, which was in Manchester, my hometown, that was the first fight that my mum's ever been to.

Really? And I'm already like number one in the world.

I'm like, bloody hell, mum.

You've lived here this long.

But yes, she just stays away from the MMA side of things.

She is just a mum. Which is great.

That's amazing. She is a really, really lovely person.

Why was that the first fight she'd ever come to?

Because it's scary.

You didn't want her to come?

No, it's not that I didn't want her to.

It's never been like her thing.

So I would never be like, Like, oh, Mum, can you please come?

Because I know it's...

I know, like, firsthand, even from, like, teammates fighting, how scary it is for me to be in attendance.

So I would never, like, drag along someone who loves me because it's horrendous, to be honest with you.

Like, it's such an unpredictable sport that you just never know.

So I think my mum came because I was like, look, Mum, I don't want to tell you to come or not come, but this is probably the only time I'm ever going to fight in Manchester.

Manchester like I don't know how many fights I've got left and I'm on I'm under the notion that I would rather retire a little bit too early than a little bit too late because I've seen the way people get late in their career and I don't I don't want to be like that so I'm not saying I'm going to retire anytime soon but I'm just saying like most of my fights are in the US now and I don't think you'll ever have a chance to see me fight live again so I think you should come to of this one and uh she came and apparently she enjoyed it as you're talking about the role that martial arts has played

in your life it got me thinking about about young men in general because young men in general seem to be really struggling at the moment when we look at a lot of the statistics around like suicidal ideation and purposelessness and um it made me as you were speaking I was like damn I need to do martial arts so if there is young men listening to this that are struggling in their lives in any way what advice would you give them in terms of martial arts or those early life decisions or even later life decisions about you know something that they can do to find that sense of purpose that you so clearly

found i mean let me first of all start by saying i would be completely lost without it i think everybody should do it honestly because i think that that it puts your ego in check massively because you constantly, like every time you step onto a mat to train, you're getting hit in the face with reality constantly.

And if you haven't been, like for me, it's like you're getting hit in the face with reality and if you're not consistent, that reality will hit you harder and harder each time.

So it creates a sense of like purpose in your life.

life you're almost like scared it's not it's not fear but it's like you don't want to miss because you don't want to get hit with the reality like you don't want to be inconsistent with your training because you don't want to be hit harder by the reality next time you go if that makes sense makes perfect sense i just think that it gives you just a massive structure in your life and not only that not to mention the stuff like look i'm not going to sit here and talk about crime rates or anything like that because I don't know the statistics.

But I know that in this country especially, crime is pretty high right now.

So my friend who's come with me who's upstairs, Charlie, he does my social media.

And he's also a close friend of mine as well.

And he's a similar age to me, he's 32.

And he's literally just started training because I literally said to him, like, Charlie, I say this to everybody who's not involved in martial arts, if you need to and I'm not saying you need to be a world champion you need to train every but you need to have a general idea of how to defend yourself if it ever happens like you don't need to be good you don't need to have a fight you don't need to be preparing to fight someone in a ring in a cage or whatever but I think everybody should be comfortable with a general idea of how to defend yourself if they need to whether that be if you own a house if If you

have children, if you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or whatever, if you have somebody who you might need to protect who can't protect their self or something that you might need to protect, you need to have some kind of idea on how to protect that.

That's my opinion because fighting is a scary thing.

At the best, it's like I'm the number one heavyweight in the world right now and I'm scared to fight somebody.

So I wouldn't like to be completely clueless because it must be so scary And I think that I would recommend it to anybody of any age to do some kind of martial arts.

So there's a couple of things you said there which I'm most certainly going to ask you about.

The first thing you said was about how martial arts brings the consequence of like a lack of discipline up close but also increases the consequence.

I was thinking as you were saying that, I was thinking, oh my God, this is so true.

Because if I'm an 18 -year -old guy and I'm sat on the sofa at home doing nothing with my life, the consequence of that is quite hard to see in the short term what you're saying is by doing martial arts the consequence becomes weekly and becomes you're going to get your fucking nose broken yeah so so that's motivating to get you get your life together and then the other thing you said is I'm the number one in the world and even I'm scared to fight somebody yeah who who yeah everybody I don't want to fight anybody I don't I mean I want to fight professionally I I love doing that, but as far as a confrontation with somebody,

that's the last thing I'm trying to do.

I don't want to do that with anybody.

So you weren't saying that you're scared to fight a particular person?

Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm scared to fight everybody.

And I think that for professional combat athletes across the board, whether that's boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, MMA, whatever you're into, I think that's like a very, very taboo subject is like fear because everybody wants to be this like big like i'm a freaking six foot five 115 kilo guy with like cauliflower ears and everything like tattoos the whole lot it's pretty difficult to sit here and say like i'm scared to fight anybody and like have that and be and be literally the number one heavyweight in the world but kind of the realization of the fear that i've got now that i understand fear

and what it is and what it does for me it just fuels me so much to do what i do in mma we have terms like a gym warrior people call it like someone who spars in the gym really really well and then they get under the lights and they don't fight anywhere near what they do in the gym now generally speaking that is because they don't understand fear properly and i think i've got in a place where i completely understand that fear Fear fuels me in a way that nothing else can fuel me and I'm completely comfortable with it.

I'm super intrigued by this, so I want to talk about this.

This idea of fear, but also the journey that you've been on with fear.

So have you always been fearful to fight people?

And I think that if you're not, you're either lying to yourself or you're a complete idiot.

I think if you are going to sit in an arena and the arena's packed to the rims with 20 -plus thousand people and there's another guy over the other side of the arena waiting to fight you who's trained for the last 10 weeks and you've got to meet him in the centre of the octagon with millions of people watching around the world and know that you can get separated from your own consciousness and you're not scared.

You're either lying to yourself or you're just a complete idiot.

With your mum watching for the first time.

Yeah. yeah I mean I see you guys do the walkouts and I'm just like wow yeah it's crazy it's hard to ever comment on someone being good or bad at something that it takes that much courage to do that I've clearly not demonstrated in my own life so so fear so you've always been scared to you've always had fear when faced with an opponent but you also alluded to the fact that there's work that you've done to overcome that fear, or to put it into perspective, I guess?

Yeah. What's that work?

The gym warrior and the guy who's under the lights can be two different people, and I've seen it a lot over the years.

I've seen it so much. Still see it now, still see it all the time.

See, when you train, this is my personal opinion, this is not facts, but this is my personal opinion.

I would say the training aspect is probably around 80 % physical and 20 % mental, the training aspect.

on fight night when you are in that arena and you are you have got them bright lights beaming down on you and you can hear the crowd going crazy and you know that there's millions of people watching you you've got them tiny gloves on there's another massive guy stood across from you with his shirt off i believe it completely flips and becomes about 80 plus percent mental i remember somebody i actually can't remember who it was it might have even been on a podcast or something saying look we spend all this time preparing physically because to be an MMA fighter you have to dedicate a lot of time

and I mean a lot of time to preparing physically so that that can be you know I train around about between three and five hours a day possibly on the physical training and that's not to mention the stretching the eating the sleeping the physio the saunas the all the other stuff that comes with becoming a good athlete so I'm probably dedicating a solid most of the 24 hours a day if you're going to count sleeping as well which i believe is a part of being a professional athlete is dedicated to me becoming the best version an athlete of myself as possible now you're dedicating all that time to training

physically how much are you dedicating to mental the mental aspects and if you would ask most fighters especially at the top top level you're talking top 10 guys in the world what do you think is the most important aspect the physical side or the mental side i will guarantee at least 50 of them guys would say the mental side now if you're comparing mental and physical we're spending this much time on the physical side but this much time on the mental side next to nothing and uh i could see a massive discrepancy in that And I wanted to bring the mental side up.

So you're in the mental gym too?

All the time. And what is that?

A lot of visualisation.

Okay, so talk me through this.

Give me as much detail as possible.

Okay, okay. So I work with a hypnotherapist, which I think is very important.

Yep. I write stuff down.

I have stuff where I can see it.

I'll look at that a lot.

but even stuff like I'm just a massive daydreamer, massive daydreamer, and I can just see in my mind clearly.

This is something that's programmed into me for years and years.

It's almost like mental.

See, in MMA, we have a term, and I don't know if this goes across the board, but we call it drilling.

So if there's a technique, if you're practicing like I want to and you're doing it repeatedly, you call it drilling.

You're drilling, I want to.

Drilling is like repetition, repetition.

I like mentally drill situations so when you're talking about the walkout when I'm physically walking out mentally I've walked out 10 ,000 times before I've actually physically walked out so by the time I'm there physically I've been there so many times mentally that it feels quite quite normal to me and then I constantly tell myself that I've got to enjoy it because I'm completely aware now especially i'm closer to the end than i am the beginning now definitely i don't know when i'm going to retire i have no plans to retire right now but i'm definitely close to the end and the beginning and the moments

that we have these walkout moments these fear moments of being stood in the cage with another guy who's stood in the cage with me and we know that once these officials get out the ring and they close that cage we are going to fight and someone is going to win and someone's going to lose like those are really special moments and you have to enjoy them.

Because when I'm 60 years old, and hopefully I've got grandkids and I want to be telling them about these special moments and not wishing them away and really, really enjoying them.

That's something that mentally I try and practice being in the moment and enjoying it a lot.

And I feel like a lot of fighters, they're just so stressed about the end result that they can't even focus on enjoying themselves in the right now.

And I know for me personally, when I'm enjoying myself, that's when I do my best. So I want to enjoy myself.

I want to talk to you about a few things you said there.

You talked about visualization was what you mentioned first and writing things down.

What kind of things do you write down?

And what's your whole process there?

Because I'm sure there's people at home that would love to understand some of these practices so that they can implement them in their own life and then also speak to the value that it's brought to your life doing these kind of things.

You talk about visualization.

Generalization. People think about this like weird woo -woo kind of thing, sitting there with crystals on you and weird music and meditate.

It's not like that.

It's as simple as getting a piece of paper, writing down, this week I will do this and enjoy it.

That's as simple as that.

That's all I do. This year I will win two fights.

I will enjoy both of them and I will perform to my best. I'm just reading it every so often.

And how often do you do that?

Is it something you do at the start of the year or is it?

Just like, sporadically really, I'm not the kind of guy who goes, right, at the beginning of the year, this is my visualisation board or anything like that.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, that's just not what I do personally.

When I feel like writing stuff, I'll write it and most of the time I've got it in my bedside table or I've got it somewhere that I can see it and I'll pick it up, I'll read it a few times, the same sentence, I'll put it down and I feel like it's in there.

I wrote recently that things are working thinking follow me, because I'm in a really weird situation with my career that I've never really been before, where there's a lot of politics involved in my kind of next move.

With John Jones. Yeah, I think I said to you like off camera, he's like, usually it's like, right, get off at a fight, work towards the fight, fight, fight's over, a little bit of downtime, another fight, work towards that fight, over, blah, blah, blah.

Whereas now I'm just kind of like a little bit in limbo when I don't know what's happening.

And I'm just like, oh, usually I'm used to having my life mapped out as to when I need to dedicate more time to this and what training partners come in there and what I need to focus on.

But now I'm just in a little bit of limbo where I don't know really what's going on.

And I wanted to really write down just to solidify that all this is happening.

Because I think when you are in those kind of situations, I know me personally, I start to, like, conspire in my own, like that everyone's conspiring against me like oh this is not working out for me and i start thinking negatively but i think sometimes you just got to write down like this is going to be all right like this is whatever's happening right now i don't know what it is and i don't know i can't fix it personally because nothing to do with me but i know that's going to work it's going to end up all right and it's going to work out for me so a couple of weeks ago i remember just writing

that down putting it in the thing next to my bed and uh sometimes when i'm waking up i'm feeling a bit stressed i'll just read it put it away and then that's it yeah so any moment maybe maybe today, maybe now, maybe your phone upstairs could have a text message on it from Dana White saying, we're good to go.

Yeah, pretty much. I am now like training.

I mean, I'm always training anyway.

Training is a massive part of my life, but I could get a text at any moment telling me I'm going to fight in six weeks and that would be amazing.

And it would be the biggest fight of all time.

Yeah, but I don't think that's going to happen because they are giving it that, it's definitely, in my opinion, there's a few massive fights to be made at the moment in MMA.

may uh but i think as far as thirst from fans this is the one that people want to see the most um when i say that does it make you nervous everything i just said and when i said it was a big fight of all time because i love it yeah yeah that's what i want to do yeah that's what i want to be involved with yeah that's that's why we do this thing we don't like i have had a lot of fights that nobody cared about in all honesty like i've had a lot of fights I think people don't realise they see me and other guys at the top of the division you know we're travelling the world we're making money we're

winning titles we're doing all this good stuff honestly most of my fights there was a hundred people there and I came away with a hundred quid cash and nobody gave a shit either way yeah and that's the realisation of it like MMA is such a tough sport to like a lot of kids not a lot of kids but a lot of parents if I meet a parent on the street who's kids involved in MMA or whatever a lot of the time will say like what advice have you got for them and in all honesty a lot of the time I'm like have a backup plan because it's so difficult to make any money out of or any like I was saying I'm going to

an event tomorrow actually it's a local show I was an amateur champion on the show It's a great show, do you know what I mean?

There'll be a couple of thousand people there tomorrow.

And there's got a big fight card. Like, there's maybe 20 fighters on.

So there's 40 fighters fighting tomorrow night.

I'm going to it. And I was chatting to my friend last night, actually.

He said, oh, is there anyone decent on the card?

I said, yeah, yeah, there's a couple of guys on.

And he said, oh, will anybody go to the UFC?

And we just got chatting about that and how that looks and how it looks to get in the UFC.

And I said, to be honest with you, if one person out of the 40 can buy a house from MMA, I would be very surprised.

And that's one in 40 decent level.

It's just so hard to make a living out of MMA.

There is absolutely no career path to doing it, really.

Especially in this country, it's getting tougher and tougher.

And I'm trying to raise as much awareness about MMA as possible.

I want kids to be able to look at guys like me and other guys and be like, if he's making a career out of it, I can.

But it is so hard in this country.

That's why I'm doing as much as I can to try and get this thing as mainstream as possible.

I mean, even in the UK, if I think there's been hundreds of thousands of kids that probably practiced MMA over the last couple of years and how many of them really get to the point where they could buy a house from it.

You can name them. like you, Conor McGregor, Ian Gary, Paddy Pimlett.

Leon Edwards is another big one.

I mean, there's definitely guys who have made a lot of money out of it and have a good living, but honestly, I've been around gyms all my life and I would say 95 % of people have never made more than £5 ,000 for a fight.

How much were you getting paid throughout your amateur career?

Because you were an amateur fighter up until the point where you basically ran out of people you could fight.

Yep. I think you had nine amateur fights, right?

Nine, which at the time was quite a lot.

I would always recommend get as much experience as you can as an amateur before you move on to pro.

But yeah, so as an amateur, I was obviously getting ticket money.

So the way it worked when I was fighting as an amateur, at least, it was like if you would sell a ticket for 30 quid, you would get a fiver of it.

So the promoters would work off that like a little percentage thing going.

So of those nine amateur fights, how much do you think you...

All together? oh i was maybe making between 50 and 100 quid a fight okay so that's nearly a grand yeah nearly a grand on that and then you went you had a professional run as well was it seven fights as a professional mma before i got to the i have no idea before i got to the ufc probably yeah maybe seven yeah what i've done is seven so i remember my first pro fight i got 200 quid okay so you doubled doubled it smashing it i was absolutely smashing it then so so that's yeah Yeah, so you probably made two grand or something there.

And then the UFC pays much better.

Much better, much better.

Which is when you can start to make a living from it.

Yeah, I mean, they start off pretty good.

I'm really lucky in the fact that I've got a fan -friendly style.

So people want to see me fight, especially heavyweights.

People want to see.

A lot of the people who have not got a technically trained eye, they want to see two guys punching each other, one guy.

unconscious that's that's the brutality of it and that's the that's the reality of it and my style generally speaking brings that well I mean generally speaking don't you hold the world record for the average yeah fastest time I do yeah yeah that a fight ends yes yeah which is pretty crazy yeah I mean that's why you're such a draw right because you're knocking everyone out within two minutes on average yep yep so like you I progress through contracts and money quite quite quickly because of my style, but not everybody does.

So generally speaking, in the UFC you get what's called show money, which is your money to show up.

Which is, what can you tell me?

Usually it's $10 ,000.

Yeah. And, I mean, people's contracts are different, but I'm just speaking generally.

People start off at 10 and 10.

They get show money, win money.

So generally speaking, and this varies amongst, you know, If someone's got a career in another big organisation, sometimes they'll sign him for more than that.

But I was coming off a regional show, so I think I either got 10 and 10 or 12 and 12, I can't remember.

But generally speaking, it's like you get your show money, which is between 10 and 15K dollars, and then your win bonus is double your show money, usually.

So 10 and 10, 12 and 12, 15 and 15.

For how long are you on that contract?

They usually do four fights.

but the thing is they can terminate that at any time so if you're in like a fight that's boring it's a bit of a stinker even if you win they can just be like yeah we're done done with that interesting yeah so if it's four fights you're getting 10 and 10 you could earn that's 80k if you win you usually go up so it'd be like 10 and 10 12 and 12 14 and 14 16 and 16 something like that okay the low end is you could make 80k from those first yeah but if you lose you just get a 10 that's the oh yeah you can make 40 games yeah and generally speaking like if you go 10 and 10 you win you go 12 and 12 you

win you go 14 and 14 but you lose that one you go back to 12 and 12 does that make sense ah okay but if you have an exciting style and the UFC like you see I'm very lucky because I'm from the UK and people from the UK get behind the fighters a lot of the time and I'm very lucky that I've got that myself so I did 10 and 10 and then I think 12 and 12 if I remember rightly and then they re -signed me then because they had two first round finishes so they re -signed me for a bigger contract then which is great and then they signed me for another four fights and then you know you win a couple more in exciting

fashion and you can get bigger contracts you don't have to stay for the four so after two fights you got a new deal yes and that drastically changes the money yes yeah like from still in the 10s Still on the 10s.

Yeah, yeah, still on the 10s.

Bigger 10s, 50s. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I thought it was 50.

I thought someone like Ian Garry who came in from...

What's the organisation he came in from?

Cage Warriors. I also came in from Cage Warriors.

Oh, okay. So he must have been...

I thought he was on 50.

I mean, he might have been.

He might have been.

A different time, though.

Yeah, maybe he was.

I don't know. Like I say, it varies from person to person, but from my experience, I came in...

It was either 10 and 10 or 12 and 12.

I can't remember exactly.

And when does the big six -figure show money begin?

So I got a good contract because I took the title fight on two weeks' notice.

So I was in a bit of a position there where I could save the card because there was a title fight on the card. Somebody pulled out, they asked me to step in.

So I was in a position that the UFC needed me a little bit then.

But to answer the question, everyone's different with that, but with the money aspect, it's like when you start becoming popular and winning fights, when people want to see you, basically, it's just as much about do people want to watch you fight?

It's not just about winning fights.

Winning fights is extremely important, but you've got to make people want to see you.

So that was against Sergey Pavlovich. That's right.

That was at the end of 2023, November, and that was your first six -figure payday because you took that massive fight on short notice.

Yes. It was your biggest payday.

It was my biggest payday at the time.

I got a bigger one in my last fight.

But it was your biggest payday up until that point?

By far. By far? By far.

By how much far? More than double.

More than double, okay.

And that was a six -figure payday?

Yes. Okay. The reason why that's so surprising and interesting is because you were fighting at that point for the interim heavyweight title.

So I'm thinking about those kids back in Salford. And if they want to get a life -threatening six -figure, because that's what it is, six -figure payday, then the journey that you went on is from the age of, what, seven years old you started?

Seven, eight, something like that, yeah.

Till you were 30 years old.

So 23 years for you to get a six -figure payday from a heavyweight UFC title.

It's a long time. It's a lot of work.

Yeah, it's a whole lot of work, yeah.

I was thinking about your story arc, and if you were to, like, paint it on a graph, like, draw on a graph, am I right in thinking it's, like, slow, flat, and then quite sudden?

Oh, yeah, there's a lot, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of that going on.

They say, don't they, something like it takes years to become an overnight success or whatever.

Yeah. And that's exactly what I'm dealing with, yeah.

Really? Yeah, it's crazy.

Like you say, I've been going since I was eight years old, and the stuff that I've gone through in that time is unbelievable.

I'm a massive believer in, like, just outlasting people.

Like, just being consistent and outlasting people a lot of the time overtakes anything else.

Like, there's so many times, and a lot of it is down to my dad as well, is, like, I wanted to quit, and he's just reminded me.

Don't get me wrong.

I have quit a couple of times with MMA.

and it's been like Tom I think you really need to think about this because you've been spending your whole life doing it like don't quit now you know what I mean like there's been a lot of that from my dad and I think a lot of other dads would have just been like yeah you've done enough now you've tried your best just leave it at that whereas it's always been you know my dad's always believed in me and my mum as well not just my dad and a lot of close people around me as well to be honest I'm very lucky in that regard had that uh people have pushed me to continue which is great when was the first

time you quit i've quit quite a lot of times mate to be honest a lot of different reasons any reasons injuries yeah tough very very tough to deal with injuries as a professional athlete not getting regular fights is also tough see now i'm like it was complaining to you a minute ago about i'm not gonna fight this that i'm here but i'm gonna get a fight the thirst from the fans is there that that the UFC want me to fight, I've got a belt I've got to defend, we've got to unify this, there's millions of dollars at stake here, I'm going to fight soon, I don't know when it's going to be.

But at one point, nobody cared if I fought or not, and I had no money.

And that, I think the toughest time for me was, so I had my first kid when I was 23, my wife was pregnant when we were 22, and I had my first kid at 23.

and then when i was 24 we found out that she was pregnant again and which i'm very happy about of course i don't want to seem like it's a negative thing and that we're having twins and we had the twins everything's great and i had no money and i mean i didn't have any money at all and i'm like like living on this dream of me becoming this global superstar with these millions of pounds in the bank and with these titles and travelling.

I'm living on that dream.

But I'm in Atherton in Greater Manchester.

It's raining outside.

I can't afford to put fuel in my car and I've got three kids upstairs crying.

Do you know what I mean?

That's what I was on.

And I really felt like at the time, i don't i don't want to say like i'm some big masculine guy or anything but i felt a little bit demasculated if that's all right i felt like i'm here with this wife and kids and i ain't providing nothing like and that was really tough for me mentally at that time where i'm like how am i gonna provide for all these people like i gotta do something else because and i felt i I don't think that people around me were like, Tom's living in a dream world.

He needs to get a proper job and earn some money for his family and kids.

I don't think people, because there was a lot of people around me who actually believed in the dream as well, which is amazing.

But I felt the pressure.

I felt like people felt like that a little bit, even if they weren't saying it.

So that, I think, for me was the toughest time for me, I think, is when just after I've had my kids, I'm away training every day I'm barely spending any time at home when I am spending time at home I'm completely exhausted from training the kids have me up all the time they're crying my wife's not happy I've got no money I train all this time go to fight then it gets cancelled a week before do you know what I mean that was really really tough to deal with at the time How do you from a mental health perspective how were you during that season of life?

Not great very very tough I think think first of all I mean everybody's different but having three kids at the age of 25 is quite tough I don't think I was well I wouldn't change it for the world I absolutely love being a dad love my kids to death the most important thing in my life I wouldn't change it for the world but I think now looking back at me like seven years ago having three children I don't know how I did it it was really really tough like I think that's really young and like I was very underdeveloped mentally to have that kind of responsibility and raise children and a family and a house

and have a wife and try and get my career off the ground like it was really really tough at the time so I think I was just in survival mode to be honest with you actually it's funny you should say because I've been having these conversations recently with a couple of friends he's like my friend now is having twins he just found out he asked me what's what's it like?

And I said, to be honest with you, and I'm going to be really honest because I pride myself as a nice person, it was the hardest thing I've ever done.

I can't even remember the first year and I can't because it was so difficult and it wasn't just the twins, it was also the money situation, the fact my career's not going anywhere, the stress I was under.

Just trying to be a young guy but having all this responsibility on me.

But like I said, I absolutely wouldn't change it for the world.

It's literally shaped me into the person that I am today and I'm really, really proud of where I am now.

But at the time, it was very tough for me mentally.

Was there a hardest moment that you reflect on?

Because sometimes when we think back to our lives, we can remember a vivid rock bottom where something happened.

We went to put petrol in the car or when we were alone and our mind started saying dark things to us.

Was there a rock bottom in that period of life?

I don't I was still like aware of how um lucky I was to have like three beautiful children and and still be chasing the dream that I was on but I think I just hated owing anybody money like I felt like I just hate going to people and asking them for money like that was like my worst nightmare and I had to lend like borrow a lot of money off my dad I had to borrow some money of friends just to put fuel in the car to get to the gym to be living in what I thought at the time was like a make -believe I didn't think it was a make -believe dream but I think I feel like the people on the outside thought

what is he doing like what is this guy doing like he needs to like look after his family like I felt I felt that a lot and a lot of that might have just been in my own psyche to be honest with you a lot of it I don't think came from my close circle but But I remember having to borrow money from friends to put fuel in my car, buy nappies for my kids and stuff like that just so I can keep living on this dream of having a fight in six weeks, getting 600 quid and being able to give them 20 quid back.

It was tough. Does that not put a lot of pressure on the relationship?

Because, I mean, bloody hell, relationships are hard enough without twins, another child and everything else that makes life and relationships difficult.

so it's quite remarkable that you know being in a relationship's not easy in any in any in any regard being in a relationship and sharing your life with somebody isn't easy um yeah it did it did but you know what we got through it i'm really strong and i'm really uh happy with the family unit that we've built i try and be the best dad that i can be like that's more important than anything else to me um is just spending time and making my kids as good as I can.

And I'm aware that as a dad and as a parent, you can't control as such what your kids, you can't mold a kid into what you want it to be.

You can't say like, because I've got three kids and they're all completely different.

They're all brought up exactly the same, but they're all completely different.

And you can never say, this is what my kid's going to be and this is who he's going to be and how he's going to be.

But just to be able to hopefully bring some kind of positive outlook look on their life and and hopefully give them a positive experience on this earth is uh what i'm looking to do your your partner you're married to justina yeah did she understand oh she understands more than anybody yeah absolutely yeah if it wasn't for her my dad my mom a couple of friends around i would have been yeah i would have been a mess absolute mess yeah she was very understanding because i know that most women they would have been putting the pressure on big time yeah she She was, because when we met, I've been with her

since I was 19. She was 19, also at the same age.

That was my dream from the beginning.

So she like got on board with that.

And she's kept me, she stopped me from quitting a lot of times as well.

She stopped me from quitting so many times, yeah.

This sport's tough.

And like I said, there's no, so in football, for example, I know a little bit about football.

You start from a grassroots team as a kid, then you go to an academy and then you can get signed at the age of like 12, 13 and start playing for the under -13s and professional club, and there's a place where you can go.

And obviously, football's a tough game.

They can cut you off like that as well.

But at least there's a career path of what you're going to do and where you're going to go, whereas MMA, you're basically shooting in the dark for 95 % of it.

And I'm very lucky to have people like my wife, my family, my mum and dad, and the people around me who believe in me as well.

Yeah, I mean, we started talking about this because of that kind of graph of your career where it's kind of flat relative to what then happened and then quick all of a sudden.

And even when you think about the financials, it's like very, very little.

And then if you get all the right forces behind you in terms of like personality and timing and then someone drops out here, you get the interim shot, you win, then things take off.

It's also remarkable to me that it's happened in such a short period of time relative to how long you've been doing this because when I looked down and I saw that this was 2023, 23 yes but you've got that shot you're kind of a new face on the scene to some degree relative to some of these other guys yeah definitely definitely i think the new generation is definitely coming in now in in uh like the old guard the old champions are kind of they're at the back end of the career and now it's time for um new guys which is that's progression that's that's great quick one i want to talk about something

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So, Tom, there's this black box in front of me which contains something which represents a pivotal moment in your career.

What is in the box?

We'll remove the belt.

I mean, it's not...

I'll be honest, mate, it's not that exciting.

Interesting. It probably stinks as well.

You can probably smell it from over there.

I'm okay. It's clean, it's clean actually.

It's not too bad. This is a knee pad.

Okay. I... What is the story behind the knee pad?

add, why did you bring that?

So, first of all, I've had a knee problem for a long time, I started the knee problem when we were talking about the things that we've just been talking about, the financial struggles, and I knew that I was never kind of like, one, two fights away from getting to the UFC, so I wanted to train through the knee problems, then I got to the UFC, I'm training, I fight, I win, oh my knees are right I'm doing pretty well here I can fight with one knee fight again I win then I get a new contract and then they offer me another fight I don't want to say no to the UFC I'm on this role I've still got this bad

knee I'm training with one leg you're training with one leg?

yeah I trained with one leg for a long time pretty much I never kicked with the leg I never went on the knee ever or anything like that anyway this kept going and going I was fighting with one leg then Then the most devastating thing that happened in my whole career was my knee just give out in front of 25 ,000 home fans in the O2 Arena in London in what was a title eliminator fight.

So if either of us would have won that fight, we would have got a title shot next.

So it's a massive fight with title implications.

And not only did I lose the fight because of the injury, losing the fight is one thing if I go in there, I have a good fight I show off all my training but I get knocked out for example even though I'm going to be sad that I've lost the fight I am relatively satisfied that I went in there I had a go came up short I can live with that whereas with the knee I went in there got injured straight away the knee was down, I couldn't walk I had surgery and then I was unsure whether my career was going to be over or not and that was a massive massive turning point in my life not just in my career but in my

life that really really gave me a chance to think and slow down and figure out what's important and what isn't and that all came because of one of the biggest worst thing that's happened in my life but one one of the most important things as well.

I got the most growth from that knee injury than I've got from anything else in my life, I think.

What kind of growth emerged from that?

At the time, I was doing a lot of things wrong in my personal life and in my professional life.

I had a lot of people around me that shouldn't have been there.

I was doing some training sessions and training with people that I shouldn't have really been training with.

I wasn't living a good lifestyle in terms of diet and my recovery.

it i wasn't 100 focused and i should have been but because everything was going so well and i'm a little bit uh like superstitious i didn't want to change anything because i'm like well it's going well i don't want to start changing it and i knew that there was a lot of things wrong i knew that there were people that i shouldn't have been surrounding myself with i knew that there were training sessions that were just wasting my time really and there were um toxic people around me that shouldn't have been there and they needed to go but I didn't want to change everything because it was all going

so well. When you talk about a rock -bottom moment, when you sat on the floor of the UFC octagon in the O2 arena with your leg up in the air and there's 25 ,000 people who are there for you, start leaving the building, it's a bad feeling.

It's a really bad feeling.

so that really made me like reassess um some of the decisions that i was making at the time and the tom has been on before and after that moment completely different people i feel like i completely rebuilt myself not only physically because i think you can look you look at me physically in fights before and see a physical change just in terms of my physique and the way i'm moving around obviously i had one leg before and i've got two legs now which is way better but mentally the growth has been enormous is that I completely cut out anything negative that was in my life anything that wasn't anything

or anyone that wasn't serving me to become like run parallel with my journey to becoming the best heavyweight in the world I completely cut off and because because I was so superstitious I think but but why why did you why was it so so important for you to remove those people at that particular moment as an athlete i needed to not only as an athlete as a as a man i needed to really slow down because i was on this like fast track it's like i got in the ufc and it was just like fight fight fight but and every time it's like more and more popular more interviews more media more fame more money more

this that and I didn't really have time to like assess really what was around me, I didn't have time to like start cutting people off and start changing this and tweaking this and doing, I just didn't see it because I was on this like, I was just going and going and going and when I had that and next minute I'm sat on the couch for six months with this big cut on my leg, I can't walk, I'm doing physio and doing all the rest of it and I just feel like as an athlete and a man, I really had that time to slow down and really assess my life and be like, this isn't working.

It needs to change.

That was actually the closest point where I was pretty close to throwing in the towel then, to be honest, on my career because at that point, I'd not made, like, mega money or anything, but I'd made enough money to, like, be comfortable and I bought a house at that time.

I'd made some decent money, but nothing, like, life -changing, but I've made enough money to then, I don't know, be living my life to an all right, you know, standard for however long.

I was like, well, I'm financially comfortable now.

I've had some fights in the UFC.

I've had some success.

I think I was just outside the top five at that time or something, maybe top 10.

I've gone way further than a lot of people have done.

Maybe I'll just leave it there.

Was there an element of you that wondered if the public would ever want to see you again?

Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah, of course.

Yeah, definitely. Because I didn't have an actual fight, I felt like people thought I faked the injury or something.

So I think, like, a lot of people thought, yeah, you didn't really want to be in there with that opponent.

Because especially my opponent at the time, Curtis Blades, he was, like, running through everybody.

And I felt like a lot of people were like, Tom just didn't want to fight.

So I felt, like, very insecure about myself at the time.

When I came back, I really had a chip on my shoulder and I still got it.

I want to prove to everybody that I am the best heavyweight in the world.

You got six months on the sofa.

Did you read things people are saying?

I tried not to, but I always do.

I try not to, but I think it's quite healthy in a way, though, as well.

I think that fueled me a lot as well, is that people started quitting on me and stuff.

and a lot of people even like people were like yeah you know you've got a lot of ways to make money now like you've already done loads of media you know you're good you're good on the mic and stuff you can maybe be a pundit and stuff like that for a time I was like yeah maybe I can maybe I can just like you know be a pundit and you know I've been in there I've made an event in a couple of times and stuff I've been fought almost the elite level yeah maybe I maybe I can just do that But then I started reading these negative comments and I was like, actually, I want to fight.

What is this? Where am I going?

I'm letting these regular people talk to me and put regular thoughts in my mind and I'm not a regular person.

So I'm an elite, special athlete and I always have that belief in myself that I'm not regular and I don't want to be regular and I can't let regular people tell me how to function.

And I was almost at the point where I was letting regular people tell me how to function, and the kind of online haters spurred me to be like, nah, I've got to come back and win this title.

There's no chance this is going to be the end of me.

Did it knock your confidence at all?

No. Even though the nature of the loss, and it's your first and only loss in the UFC and you went on to beat this guy in a rematch. Did it knock your confidence at all, even though it was via injury?

Yeah. No, no. Because I was really particular that...

So there was two things that I really wanted to do after the fight.

So I lost to a guy called Curtis Blades.

That's when I injured my knee.

In 15 seconds. In 15 seconds, yeah.

Right at the beginning of the fight.

So I wanted to fight Curtis again.

That was really important to me, that I fight him again.

because I can't function as a human being knowing that I trained for a fight and didn't actually fight somebody.

If I would have lost, at least I can, like, look myself in the mirror and be like, I tried my best, that's all I can do.

But I seriously had unfinished business.

And the other thing was that the injury happened at the O2 arena, which from anyone from the UK knows that that is, like, prestigious...

If you're a UFC fighter and you're English, you want to fight at the O2, especially headline the O2.

That's an unbelievable experience.

I couldn't then never fight at the O2 Arena again.

I had to fight at the O2.

They were the two things.

I wanted to fight Blades again and I wanted to fight at the O2 just so I can mentally just tick them two things off and then move forward. I did both of them and I won both fights.

Happy with that. that John Jones yeah how'd you feel about him I'm sick of talking about him I bet you are yeah because that's what people want to talk about yeah yeah I mean a lot of people now they think like oh all Tom does is talk about John and it's not the case I don't want to talk about John but that's all people ask me about do you know what I mean everybody like I said before it's what it's probably one of the most anticipated fights in UFC history me and John Jones so So obviously that's the subject that people want to talk about.

That's what people are interested in.

So John is an absolute legend of the sport to answer that.

The way I feel about him personally is quite relevant.

The stuff that he's done in the UFC, he will be absolutely immortal forever.

He will always be known as one of the best ever.

And I really, as a mixed martial arts fan, really, really respect what he's done in the sport.

Are you fearful of fighting him?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

I mean, I'd be an idiot otherwise.

He's the best, one of the best to ever put a pair of UFC gloves on.

And I think, like I say, regardless of what he's done outside the octagon, and for anyone watching who doesn't know, I am referring to these legal issues that he's got, and that's nothing to do with me.

I have no idea about any of that.

I don't know him personally.

I think inside the octagon, he is 100 % one of the best people to ever do it.

What do you admire about John Jones in terms of his fighting style?

He's extremely smart.

Extremely smart. The way he goes about his business in the octagon, but also his business outside the octagon and the match -ups that he's chose for himself.

very smart very very smart the way that he's chose guys who he matches up stylistically really well with or who are well past the prime I think it's genius I think it's absolute genius Are you saying that he's avoided people that might have beaten I'm not saying that I'm saying that he's chose very well he's chose very very wisely the right opponents at the right time which is super smart so to answer your question yeah probably i'm saying that so what about his you admire that his his sort of fighting iq yeah he's so one of the smartest fighters to ever fight in really yeah explain that to me

like i'm a muggle so okay okay um he He has a certain way of making fighters fight his style, if that makes sense.

So he will constantly keep his opponent guessing with kind of like different things.

He will always have a style that suits him really well and he will force his opponent to fight that way, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does, yeah.

I guess it's kind of difficult if you're uneducated on it.

But he has his style and he will never come out of that and risk fighting in somebody else's style ever.

He will constantly force elite guys to fight his style, which is really, really difficult to do in a technical perspective.

I kind of saw that against Stipe, I thought.

Yeah, but Stipe's also 42 years old with a million miles on the clock.

You have to remember that.

But you are right. You're definitely right.

but from seeing it up close because I was almost in touching distance of the octagon Stipe was more than offbeat in that fight in terms of how far he is away from his prime What is it that John Jones is doing there?

Because you see these great athletes who have their own really clearly defined style and you see them get in the ring with John Jones and suddenly their style seems to have vanished or they're scared or he's doing something to keep them out, like on the back foot and outside of their zone of comfort so they can never really get into the rhythm so they play his game.

What is it he's doing there?

Well, first of all, John Jones is a light heavyweight, so he's now moved up to heavy.

He's had two fights heavyweight, but traditionally he's a light heavyweight.

For a light heavyweight, he's extremely long in terms of wingspan and leg length.

And when you're that much taller, and this is not, I'm not saying anything about, But most of the guys he's fought are from middleweight coming up.

So he's generally the taller guy and keeps people at the end of his reach so well.

Like his distance management is one of the best ever.

He does that really well.

And then when he's moved up to heavyweight, he's fought a guy in Surrogate who, no disrespect to him, doesn't have a ground game.

Jon Jones is one of the best wrestlers ever in MMA.

And a 42 -year -old Stipe.

so he's chose really really well what he does but he just uses his distance management and his timing is incredible like the way he uses the attributes that he's got is honestly like from from somebody who studied martial arts from like i said eight years old it's like it's almost like beautiful for me to watch the way he expresses different techniques under that much pressure against elite competition it's amazing to watch he's got an incredible set of skills in that regard because he can kick he can punch he can grapple he can wrestle i think in today's mixed martial arts everybody has to do

all that arguably everybody has to be almost elite in everything the thing that he does really well is he does everything on his terms inside the octagon on like everybody can do all all the stuff that you just listed punch kick elbow knee wrestle grapple choke armbar whatever but he does it all on his terms and that is something that is the elite of the elite and like i say all of us all of us and when i say us i'm talking about the professional mma fighter who's had one fight to john jones all of us everything in between that that can do everything really well you have to be able to to be able

to swim but he just does it on his terms when his opponent is not expecting it and that is unbelievable so you must be thinking about how you stopped that oh absolutely absolutely it's difficult because I don't want to over obsess about it because there's no contract with my name and his name signed yeah but in the back of my mind when I'm training of course I'm thinking about that kind of stuff but I think what I bring to the table is I'm way bigger than anyone he's ever fought.

I'm close to my prime.

I don't think I've reached it quite yet.

I think I've still got maybe a year or so before I get there.

And I think I'm just really, I don't want to say I'm athletically gifted because I've definitely put a lot of work into it.

But I think when it comes to athleticism for a big guy, I think I'm like, I don't want to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet, but I'm just being real.

I think that I am like head and shoulders above any other heavyweight.

And not only that, my decision -making, I think that's the difference is like a lot of people, like any heavyweight, put a pair of gloves on them, they can knock anybody out.

That goes without saying, we're massive guys.

But my decision -making is elite, like elite, elite.

It's the best, some of the best in MMA.

And I hate to sit here with a lot of cameras around me and look you in the face and tell you that, but it's the honest truth.

I believe that. that I'm also almost in my prime, I'm hungry, and I bring all these physical and technical attributes to the table, which somebody like, for example, Stipe Miocic who's 11, 12 years older than me and a million miles on the clock doesn't bring.

So when people see your fighting style and they hear that you've got the world record for the lowest average time to end fights, just over two minutes on average, your fights last before you knock the guy out, they're going to be thinking, right, so Tom's strategy here is he's going to storm John Jones and throw that hand and knock him out.

And John Jones is going to be thinking the same.

John Jones is going to be like, right, he's going to try and finish me quick.

That's his game. There's literally a world record that says that's his game.

Yeah, I love that. Like, if people think that's all I bring to the table, like, I like being a bit of a mystery.

I absolutely love that.

Like, there's so much of my game that I've not had the opportunity to show yet.

and I absolutely love it you know when people like critique the fact that I've not been into the later rounds or maybe I've not got the conditioning that other guys have got or look that's not my problem that's the problem of my opponents they can't deal with what I'm throwing I never ever go out there to finish the fight quick it just happens and that isn't actually an issue for me that's the issue for the guy standing across the octagon from me because I have never been in a fight where I'm trying to finish, really.

I'm just trying to go out there, do my thing, see what comes and see what's what.

And the fact that people are doubting what I can do just because they don't know, because they've not seen it with their own eyes, they think I can't do it, which to me is a humongous advantage, humongous advantage.

Like John Jones, for example, is known for his film study.

like he loves watching his opponent and seeing how they move seeing the patterns that they bring up and like good luck with doing that with me mate because the footage isn't out there and I think that's also part of the reason why he's not quick to sign any contracts or to agree on anything yeah the money's a factor of course yeah he's right at the end of his career and he might want to retire I don't know I don't know how John's mind works but definitely somewhere it's an insecurity of his that there isn't any footage out there of me that you can watch for longer than three or four minutes and that is just

a humongous advantage for me massive.

Because you finish the fight so quick yeah yeah yeah there's so much of my game that I've not even been close to showing and I'm very excited to surprise some of these guys when I do show it.

I can't imagine how many times you must have played over in your head you were talking about drilling earlier that fight talk to me about that yeah i've definitely replayed like played it a lot um but i do that with all opponents even even even guys in the in the division right now who have not got any prospects of fighting at the moment i think about that a lot like i think about how i match up physically and mentally with them so if you're playing that over in your head run me through the tape you're playing well that's top secret is that really the case that there's a particular strategy and you're

replaying in your Yeah, absolutely.

But there's one thing that I know for sure.

This is nailed on, guaranteed.

And this goes for any human being in the world, and this has been proved time and time again, even though sometimes I don't believe that it can happen.

But now I know, if I punch a human being in the face as hard as I can and it lands, they will be unconscious.

and know it because it's been proved at the elite level multiple times.

So I need one and that's it.

Well, I wanted to test that.

So we've got Jack here, who...

I won't punch you, Jack.

It's not today. Have you had your punch power tested?

Yeah, I have had it tested.

There are guys that have more punch power than me on the machine.

And probably in real life as well, whatever But I think I don't want to tell you because I don't want people to watch it And know my secrets But I punch people when they're not expecting it And they're the ones that hurt And I disguise it in a certain way I do bits on my YouTube channel and stuff About me explaining techniques And doing different things And now I've got something Called a school platform Which I know you had Alex Hormozy on the channel as well who has shares in school, and I show different techniques and stuff like that, but I'll never show my game, if that makes sense.

I'll show a generalisation of what to do and strategy and what to focus on and not, but my personal game and what I do for my style, I'll never show it because that's something for only me and my coaches to know.

And when you think about your routine for those six weeks, what advice can you give to an average person about the health routine that you go through to get into elite shape, what are the tips and tricks you've learned that you could impart on me as someone that's not necessarily a fighter?

Well, something that I'm learning as I'm getting a little bit older, and I'm not saying I'm old by any chance, by any stretch of the imagination, but as I'm getting older and I'm getting more, I've been training a long time even though I'm not up there in age, but I can definitely feel more in my body than I used to, especially being a bigger guy.

i um generally we carry more injuries but i think that if you're training for example four hours a day what i've found is doing at least half of that time recovering is what i'm aiming to do so however the recovery looks to you whether that's stretching breathing exercises sauna swimming steam room jacuzzi you know there's a whole you google recovery from exercise there'll be a million things that you can do but i like to try and do 50 percent of my training the easiest way i can say is if i'm training for four hours i try and do two hours worth of recovery um and i think that has helped me a lot

not to mention massively massively underrated and as a heavy weight i can kind of eat what i want really if i want to like well i don't have a the smaller weights they all have to be under a certain weight so weight cutting is like a big thing you know i I mean, people, they do extreme diets and then cut a lot of water out the last week and try and get, you know, squeeze as much as they can to get under this weight division.

They weigh in, then they put the weight back on.

I just have to be over 93 kilos, and I do that, no problem.

But doesn't your nutrition have an impact on your performance?

Of course, of course.

That's kind of what I'm getting to is, like, it is so important what you put in your body.

Like, I didn't realize that until I was maybe 28 years old, 27, 28 years old, and it needs to be monitored like again going back to writing stuff down like write down what you eat in a day and eliminate one thing for the next day and write how you feel that's what i did a lot is like and now i'm at the point where like i will eat similar things at similar times every day because i know how my body functions on that and i know that if i'm I'm doing an intense session there.

I need a little bit more carbs before and after.

And what kind of carbs is something that I've worked out to how I feel before and after.

And again, it's just a lot of, every person's body is different, so I would never like to sit here and I'm not a nutrition expert and start going on about what people need to eat because that's not my expertise.

But I know from a personal point of view that writing things down and experiment and taking this out and adding this in and then writing notes on how you feel and doing that every day has been massive for me.

What about sleep? You mentioned sleep earlier on.

I do like to sleep a lot.

I'm just a big napper.

Like if I train in the morning, I'm going to sleep straight after.

And that takes a lot of discipline, you know.

Like it takes a lot of discipline for me to be like, I'm coming home from training, I'm going to shower, eat and sleep and nothing's coming in the way of that.

Especially like with kids.

like if I'm coming home and if I've done a two hour session in the morning I'm coming home the kids are excited to see me this guy's wants to play on the Xbox the other one wants to play outside this one wants to snack then that one wants to play outside and then it's just madness and then one of them spilt a drink you've got to clean this up and then one wants this on the TV it's just a constant thing for me to then walk in and be like I'm going to bed I'll be up in an hour and a half you know what I mean like that's that's discipline as well that's but but all these little increments they just

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I am. The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid, but what if you had the right question to start them with?

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And you can get yours at thediary .com.

You mentioned a term earlier on that we didn't go into, which was hypnotherapy.

Yes. For someone that doesn't know what hypnotherapy is, can you give me like a broad idea of what it is and the role that it's played in your life and any evidence you might have seen that it actually works?

Yeah. So I'm going like quite hard on the hypnotherapy now.

I actually spoke to my hypnotherapist yesterday.

today i'm going to start doing uh twice a week why um a few different reasons really both personal and professional i had a situation recently uh with my kid where my kid was in hospital and it really kicked off my anxiety massively and since then i'm struggling to relax a little bit more than than i would usually struggling to switch off so i think that for me personally again Again, I don't want to sit here and preach about hypnotherapy because it's not my expertise at all.

But for me personally, it brings my anxiety down a lot, so it helps with that.

It also helps with sleep.

It also helps with just being just in a more tranquil place in general.

And when you add those qualities into what can be a very anxiety -filled real anxiety filled sport I think that's just a massive advantage not to mention the other stuff that we talked about like life and and just general stressiness as well for someone that doesn't know anything about the hypnotherapy that you do they might think that it's like you know back in the day it was like swinging the thing in front of your face and then you fall asleep and they tell you you're a dog and you bark yeah yeah you used to be on tv when I was younger yeah um but but it's not that is it it's what is it any

people are going to start thinking it's like some some woo -woo thing where you start going unconscious and doing all this.

It's nothing like that.

It's like essentially you're just in a room, the way that I do it at least. I'm in a room with a guy talking to me.

I'm completely relaxed, lay down or sat up, doesn't matter, usually with my eyes closed.

Usually it'll take you through a story of you going to a place, you're walking down a street or whatever.

You'll set the scene kind of thing.

I used to think I need to listen and focus in on every word he's saying.

like i need to put myself exactly where you know follow the story quote -unquote story exactly as he's telling me to follow it and i actually spoke to him about it and i was like i'm struggling to like listen for that long because it goes on like 45 minutes struggling to like follow the path that you're leading me down for that long and he's like listen don't worry you can be thinking about whatever you want you don't have to follow what i'm telling you he said because your subconscious is listening all the time it's saying it's the same when a couple of times i was like fighting to stay awake

because i was tired most of the time i did after training as well so i'm tired like fighting to stay awake and i said look i'm fighting to stay awake i'm like getting really tired he's like look if you fall asleep it doesn't matter your subconscious is still listening so it doesn't matter what's going on and a lot of the time i'm just there i'm just like chilling out i'm listening to what he's saying but i'm also drifting off of my own thoughts and i don't know how again i'm not like a psychologist hypnotherapist or anything like that but I only know from my own personal perspective that when it

comes to like anxiety and positive thinking and just generally being in a better place mentally I just believe in it a lot I think it really helps me anxiety what journey have you been on with your anxiety um it's something that I've always kind of dealt with but I think it's not uncommon to deal with it and I think that a lot of people think it think it is uncommon like I uh I'm a little bit OCD and I think that OCD and anxiety goes hand in hand like I think that and it used to be a lot worse to be honest I used to I struggled with it uh when I was a child I still struggle with it now but uh

used to be a lot worse when I was younger and how did that manifest oh at one point at one point it was like I couldn't sit in a room unless the room was the the way I wanted it to look.

Like, unless the curtains were closed the right way, the drawers were shut perfectly, everything was facing forward, the TV was on a certain angle, like, I couldn't rest. Oh, really?

Because of, like, I would think, like, something bad is going to happen unless all that's right.

But after a while, I kind of grew out of that a little bit and got a hold on it, but it still creeps back, mate, sometimes.

I try and keep it at bay.

Does it come out at certain moments when certain things happen?

Yeah, yeah, it does.

It gets worse. Like I said, I've been through something quite traumatic recently where my son was in hospital and that's a whole other story of its own.

But at one point we were really concerned about my son's health really and that was a big traumatic thing for me and I noticed a lot that my OCD starts to come back and I want to do certain stuff again because my anxiety is creeping up and I've just got to really try Try and keep it at bay.

And anxiety's separate to that.

So your anxiety is always been something in the background in your life, but it flares up in certain situations.

Yeah, so I mean, I'm in an anxiety -fueled sport.

So I think naturally there's a lot going on because of that, but it's just something, I think everybody deals with it.

I don't think I'm uncommon to anybody else.

I think, especially these days, it's a lot more accepted to be like talking about it and stuff um it's super common and yeah it's very it's very common very very common i think social media doesn't help with that especially for like i mean for myself it's like i have a thing now i've only done for the last couple of fights where social media has gone from my life when i've got a fight date because there is no chance that i'm thinking about my opponent all day and i'm also scrolling and reading a lot of comments all day it's just not i just won't deal with it and for the next fight i'm actually

gonna uh have like a training camp phone oh okay where only people who are actually involved in my training camp or personal life and when i say personal life i'm talking about my wife and my dad and probably that's it they're going to be involved like i don't want to have any outside noise coming in at all your son's doing okay now son's doing okay now yeah yeah yeah thankfully thankfully everything's good puts things in perspective doesn't it honestly unbelievably um yeah i mean it wasn't really really bad without going into too too many details but uh spent a stay in hospital um with something

that we wasn't sure what it was at first and yeah massively absolutely like nothing else really matters if as long like as long as you've got your health and your family's health, you're in a pretty good spot, I think, because it's just a horrible place to be in.

Is this the son that received an autism diagnosis?

No, this is my, so one of my twins has autism.

Yeah, this is the non -autistic kid.

Tell me about your son that received the autism diagnosis and the sort of journey you've been on there.

I think this is really, really important because I've done this podcast a while Wow.

And I get so many DMs from parents who have an autistic child asking me to talk more about this subject because they just don't feel like the information's out there.

And there's a number of feelings that they feel.

I think one of them that I see in my DMs expressed is a bit of guilt to some degree, which is an interesting one, but also just a lack of people talking about the experience.

So take me on the journey from when that child was born and the path to the the diagnosis i mean i'll give as much detail as possible because like you say i think parents need details and there isn't a lot out about it and now for me recently like i say i've been through something traumatic with another one of my kids and the nhs has been absolutely nothing Nothing short of unbelievable.

Like we were in an emergency situation where we needed emergency treatment and my kid got 24 hours a day looking after while there was an emergency going on and it was unbelievable.

We came away, me and my wife being like, we are so lucky to live in this country because my wife isn't from this country as well.

So we both came away being like we are so lucky to live here in a place where you can get free everything at an emergency level straight away so I'm not trying to throw the NHS under the bus at all because when there's an emergency it's amazing that being said as far as the autistic community we are being failed and I don't know if that's from the NHS from the government I don't know who that's from but I was in a spot so five my twins are nearly six they're coming up to six um so i was in a spot like my twins were born and they were born just before the lockdown then kovid hit everything like

the world went to shit as we know and then my kids got in in a place where you know we had a child before and we're aware that kids hit milestones we've got twins so they're hitting the milestones at different stages um then we start to notice like maybe maybe two years the kids are maybe two years old we start to notice like one kid is a fair bit beyond the other one in in terms of speech in terms of how responsive he is in terms of eye contact in terms of look we could see something's different but me personally as a dad i was kind of like in denial as to right this is a lockdown's fault this kid

is two years old he's been in the house he's been around me my wife and his two brothers sometimes grandparents when the government would let us and that's it for like two years he's not in social situations he's not around other kids and that kind of went on for a bit i was was kind of like heavily in denial about it.

Even though now looking back, I could clearly see that things weren't moving normally, especially because he's got this twin and the twin's like, you know, he's moving at a different rate.

So it was right there in front of my face.

But I'm just like, in this denial, he'll catch up.

It's just the lockdown's fault.

The government's keeping us all locked inside, blah, blah, blah.

Paddy McGuinness, funny enough, he was a guy from my area, likely from a similar area, Don't know Paddy at all, never met him.

But he had this programme and it was about autism and I don't know why one day me and my wife, we sat down and watched this programme and he, I believe, has three autistic children.

All of his three children are diagnosed with autism.

So anyway, I'm watching this documentary and he's talking about all the different symptoms because it's a massive spectrum, autism.

There's a million different things.

And I'm watching and he's talking about this one kid.

He does this. This is the way that autism presents itself in this particular kid.

And in my mind I'm thinking, my son does do that a little bit.

And then he's talking about a different kid who also is diagnosed with autism, the way that the child does this.

And I'm thinking, anyway, he's going through, talking about his different children.

And I'm thinking, wow, my child ticks a lot of these boxes.

And then I Google it.

I know nothing about autism at the time and obviously that is the worst thing you can ever do and I'm going through these symptoms being like wow, this is I don't know what to do we need to try and get help so anyway we make a doctor's appointment at the GP and that is a complete mess it's difficult to get an appointment we go in, they put us on a waiting list anyway a year or so goes by the child The child isn't developing at the speed of his twin.

We can see this clearly.

We are worried about what's going on.

And we don't know what to do.

Like, we are literally, we have no idea about what's going on, how to progress this child, what his future's going to look like.

We know nothing about autism, me and my wife at the time.

Absolutely zero about it.

We don't know. It's just so such an...

we're talking about anxiety like you don't know what your child's future is going to look like and how to help him or her on how to progress as a human being that is some of the worst anxiety that you can ever have you've brought this kid to this earth and you can't even point them in the right direction of where to go on how to navigate the way through life and it's it's a really really really difficult thing anyway i go on a question of sport the show paddy mcginnis is the host me and paddy me and paddy are chatting a little bit and uh after the show whatever and i said look paddy if you don't

mind me asking uh i watch your show about um autism i said i'm trying to get my kid diagnosed i've been on the waiting list a year like what should we do so anyway he gives me me the number to the to the specialist i call the specialist we go in for a meeting long story short paid for the diagnosis got this kid diagnosed and now my child is in a mainstream school he has a one -to -one one -to -one teacher he's getting the help he needs he's doing really well he's progressing how the future is going to look we don't know we're dealing with it day to day and now i am completely aware that as a person in a good

financial situation i have the ability to do that is to go pay the money and get that and now there is so many people so so many people who and i mean i get hundreds of messages about it hundreds of people stopping me on the street about it because i spoke a little bit about autism who they are going to the gp they're going for assessments and they cannot get a diagnosis they're on a three four five year waiting list and these kids are getting sent to mainstream schools and the kids are just regressing and regressing and regressing because they don't have any help and the parents of the kids have have zero

direction and they don't know what to do and we're in a really tough spot with it in this country where like i said we've got this amazing nhs i don't know if it's the nhs that's holding this or the government but and i don't know what's causing autism there's a million things out there about vaccinations about diet about things that they're watching on tv about the toys that they play with you know there's a load of different theories on it me personally i don't know what it is obviously i'm not a specialist with that but i know that autism is getting bigger and bigger each year there's more

and more people trying to get diagnosed there's more and more people getting diagnosed and the help just isn't there the help especially in schools like i'm so lucky that my son has an amazing one -to -one teacher every day he goes and he enjoys school and it progresses a little bit and we know what we're in a position where we've had help as parents that we know what kind of direction and where to navigate them in sometimes.

Now, there's so many parents out there who've been on, like I say, three-, four-, five-, six-, seven -year waiting list. Their kids are just getting worse and worse and worse.

And as a penalty to that, the parents' life are then getting worse and worse and worse, and they have absolutely no direction of where to go and what to do.

And it's a serious, serious crisis that we've got in this country at the moment.

There are in this country, there are 700 ,000 autistic adults and children.

But in the US, roughly 2 .5 % of the US population has been diagnosed with autism.

And it is four times more common in boys than girls.

And there was a 787 % rise in the number of autism diagnosis over the last roughly two decades, which is on one hand awareness being higher.

it's higher so people are going and getting a diagnosis but some think there might be other factors that are actually increasing the amount of people that are autistic why for someone that doesn't understand autism and the process that and the plight of a parent that has an autistic child is the diagnosis so critical is it because you then get additional support and guidance and you can access that support if you have a diagnosis so i was under the notion that if my kid is diagnosed autistic or not doesn't matter that was that was my original thing doesn't matter he's still my kid I'm still gonna love

him I'm still gonna guide him through whatever he needs to in life now I completely respect anybody who's doing that it has a hundred percent respect from from me and I'm sure everybody else but the biggest issue is like me personally I'm a professional athlete it's like I know that for this many hours a day I need to be in the gym and training when I'm not in the gym I need to be recovering when I'm not in the gym I need to be eating the right things and I have this process of things that make me successful that's how I work in my life.

If you don't have a diagnosis of autism the only way I can describe it because I've been there is you're just kind of like treading water you're just stuck in one place flailing around and not really knowing how to do them steps and progress your family life in your child's life life that's the way that i look at it personally i'm speaking 100 for myself but if you've not got a diagnosis first of all you're not getting any funding which like i said i'm in a financial position where i don't need any funding but there's a lot of people out there who do need funding and funding looks like outlets

for the child help in school help at home help for the parents help for the friends sensory rooms in school sensory toys you know there's a whole host of things that can help autistic children or autistic people and without that diagnosis if you don't if you're a parent and you don't have that for your child from my personal experience it feels like you're treading water i feel like i needed a process of this is these are the steps that we have to take to help my child progress and I think that it's what we need.

It's not about another number on the statistics that you've read out, it's not about that, it's not about me saying I've got an autistic child or whatever, it's about the help that your child can get and right now we definitely don't have enough help in this country.

I heard one of my best friends was diagnosed with autism.

One of my best friends for a long time, he's actually also worked at my company um for for many many years and he spoke to me about the sense of relief that he experienced when he got his diagnosis but also it was kind of like like you're describing there was suddenly a sense of direction and understanding like someone turned the lights on with the lights on he was able to make better decisions and it's not held him back in any way if anything it's done the opposite it's helped him to understand himself but i think for some some of us who don't understand haven't been through that we either don't

can't relate but but also we have no no idea that there's additional so I had no idea until you just said it just then yeah that there's additional support given in schools and stuff like that to kids who have that diagnosis so it's critically important and I'm so glad that you share that with us because hopefully there's some people watching in the government but also parents that can get together and that are presumably getting together to change this yeah I mean it's a tough thing for me to talk about because i'm completely aware that there will be people watching this and thinking who is this knucklehead

talking about like autism diagnosis and what the government needs to go through but it's also an experience that i've lived and it's also an experience that i'm still living and that i'm fully aware just from my local area and my circle of friends and people around me, that there is a shit ton of people who are in the same boat as I am and need help.

And I feel extremely lucky and grateful that I've got the help and that we are progressing, but I know that there's a lot of people who don't and that are struggling.

So I want to try and speak for those people if I can.

Thank you for doing that.

And that's, there's a lot of my audience that are going to be very, very grateful for that.

There's something sat next to me on the table here which is this this belt it's very very heavy i know this is just a replica but you do have the real one at home and the reason why um you only bought me the replica instead of the real thing um is because the real thing costs a lot of money apparently apparently apparently so i i heard rumors online that the real thing actually costs about 300 grand yeah and you have to sign a contract when you receive this belt that if you lose it then you have to personally If it goes missing, I'm paying for it.

So, hopefully, that won't happen.

But it's in a very safe spot.

So, it won't go missing.

I'm not going to ask you where you keep it because there's people listening.

But what are these flags around it?

I've actually never seen one before.

I'm not too sure. I know this bit.

This bit here. The side?

Yeah. So, these little stones, whatever they are.

You get one of those.

So, they're all, I think, on the real one.

and the diamonds and this is a is it a ruby or something ruby you get a ruby when you defend it so I defended it once so I got one and then obviously that fills up the more you do it oh so if you defend it one two three four five six seven times it's going to be again eight rubies yeah okay what does that say there it says UFC 304 Edwards versus Muhammad 2 my personal one has my like my name on it and the proper details but because this is a replica and when you won that interim heavyweight championship and you woke up the next day?

How did you feel? Honestly.

Well, I woke up about three days later.

Sorry, I didn't sleep for about three days after because I was very excited.

Yeah, pretty good. I mean, I won it in weird circumstances.

So that fight I took on really short and I also say I actually wasn't in shape for that fight at all.

I actually just come back off a stag do.

so I wasn't in my best shape when I answered that call.

Was there any anti -climax to it?

No, no, but there's definitely an anti -climax a little bit to being quote -unquote successful, because you still feel the same.

You still have the same issues as you had before.

like money, fame, and titles doesn't change much in terms of what goes on inside your brain, in my opinion.

Maybe it does change for some people, but for me, I still have the same struggles as I did before.

It doesn't change anything in that regard. I think when you're younger especially, I don't know, it's like young people, they think that rich people have no problems, and it just isn't true.

It's just so far from the truth.

You know that. Yeah, they say more money, more problems, but it's just a different set of problems than some of the other ones.

Well, that's it, that's it.

I mean, at one point, as we spoke about in detail, a big problem of mine was I couldn't pay my rent and I couldn't pay fuel to put in the car.

That's gone. But there's more problems that have arose since that money won't fix.

Do you know what I mean?

Are you at all concerned that when your time does come, you want to retire relatively early so you don't get any cognitive issues or have to fight beyond your time?

Are you at all concerned about what you do next?

Because we've seen people like Tyson Fury you sort of really struggle.

I am a little bit, to be honest. I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

Just because it takes up so much of my time.

It takes up so much of my time.

And the time that I'm not actually physically training, like I'm not in the gym training, I am doing other stuff towards it, i .e. even stuff like breathing exercises I would class as part of my training.

Stretching, eating right, sleep.

I would class this all as part of my training routine.

So when I've not got that, what will my life look like?

I don't know. I don't know.

And that's something, as we spoke about before, and I'm aware that I'm on the second half of my career now.

When that's done, how does it look?

And I don't know if anything can ever replace that in all honesty.

What about the money side of things?

So are you having to think now?

Because what's the average age of a UFC fighter retiring?

I mean, most people don't even get there.

but if you do really really well you might fight until if you're really really lucky you might do Stipe's age 40 40 yeah yeah bigger guys tend to go longer I don't know why that is but yeah generally the heavyweights usually 40ish so how do you think about financial longevity and are you investing your money have you got people that help you yeah I do I'm looking to um invest all the time I actually my team has actually been really um really good with that kind of stuff.

Like, a lot of my, not a lot, but a few of my sponsorships, I actually have shares in business as well as the sponsorship.

And also, I want to do more stuff.

I really love the sport of MMA, so I'm always, like, even though I'm retired from fighting, I will never be involved, I'll never be retired from MMA, if that makes sense.

I've definitely made mistakes in the media space before, definitely, but I'm learning and I definitely think there's a place for me somewhere in the future to educate people on MMA however that looks whether it's punditry whether it's podcasts whether it's I don't know so something somewhere I definitely think that I will give some kind of insight to somebody where people can um hopefully learn something from me in that regard I think you're more than capable of doing all that I'd love to see you give uh breakdowns I've seen some of the the stuff you're doing with school as well so thank you I'm

also I've also uh I don't know why but they're giving my own show now on TNT sport as well breaking down fights so this is uh this is a start I'm just getting the foot in the door it's not something that I'm focusing on full -time now because I'm obviously really busy with other stuff but um when I'm done that's what I want to do what does your dad think of all of this he's been such a central figure in your in your life what this whole John Jones situation you went in the the this belt that sits in front of me here, you must have like blown his mind.

I don't think so. Really?

Yeah. I think that he had this firm belief.

He believed in me way before I believed in myself, I always say.

And I think that this is also his dream as well.

But I don't think for any of us, and this is going to sound super arrogant, but it's the truth.

I don't think any of us are surprised by it.

I think that But in some way, it was written for us to do it.

I don't know. I can't explain it any more than that.

I feel like we were both expecting to be here and this is where we are and this is where we're going to be until I'm done.

Did he ever tell you you were going to be here?

What did he say? Just little.

He was never like, you're going to be that.

But it was like, look, if you keep doing this, this is where you're going to go.

If you keep being dedicated to training and keep living your life right and keep focused, you can be heavyweight champion of the world.

And I think that, especially because I'm from like a smaller town, a blue -collar town for sure, a working -class town, that that belief is shut down so much from a young age by not just parents but other people surrounding in the community like, listen, maybe don't think you're going to be a Hollywood actor because you're not.

But maybe try and be a bit more realistic and do something a bit...

No, if you think you're going to be a Hollywood actor, you go for it.

You go 100 % at that and don't let anything waver from where you're going.

And I think that that is not told to especially the younger generation enough.

I think that, like I say, I'm from a very, very blue -collar, humble town.

and from my town there aren't many people who've done anything of great magnitude in in terms of sport and otherwise um and i think a lot of that not not all of it of course but i think a lot of it comes from the mentality of yeah maybe don't maybe don't aim for that aim for something a bit lower and that that shouldn't be encouraged in my opinion always your first option should be the highest of the high and if you land any lower then you readjust you change the goal post a little bit but the first thing is shoot as high as you can are you special yes why are you special i think that i have and first

of all i think i'm really physically gifted in terms of athleticism.

But it's something that I have worked on a lot as well.

I didn't just wake up like this.

I've definitely worked a lot over the years of it.

But I think that aside, I think I've got a gift mentally.

And this has been honed a lot by the people around me through the years.

Like I said, there's been a lot of people supporting me.

But I think I've got a gift to perform really, really well under massive pressure, under massive pressure.

And I don't think, like I say, it's been honed a lot for sure by my dad and the other people around me, definitely.

But I think that I have a God -given gift or whoever, universe -given gift or whoever you believe in, that I can perform extremely well under the highest pressure situations possible.

Even though you feel the fear?

Even though I feel the fear, because I accept the fear.

I bathe in the fear.

That's not the first time you've said that.

No, it's something that someone told me.

It's something that someone told me recently.

I thought it was funny.

So when you feel that fear, is there something you say to yourself?

Is there like a mantra or a system?

Well, I always say that I used to have two fights.

I used to be fighting my opponent.

and I used to be fighting myself.

I used to be trying to block out the fear, trying to like, but you know what?

I just took it on board and accepted that this is going to help me.

Like, there's so many examples over the years.

I like to give this example because this actually happened to one of my close friends.

So he's putting a wardrobe up and the wardrobe is like a really heavy wardrobe fell on his kid who was like not even walking at the time.

And he is a skinny guy.

like he's a small slight guy he was on his own and he pulled the wardrobe off the kid right and then anyway everything was fine the kid was fine everything whatever five minutes later he went to move the wardrobe to another part of the room and realized that you couldn't pick it up and there's only one thing that's made him pick that wardrobe up and it's fear fear that that kid is going to get crushed under that really heavy wardrobe and when he actually went to pick the wardrobe up.

Without that, there was no way you could have done it.

You had to wait till somebody came and help him move the wardrobe across the room.

There was no way that you could have done it without the fear.

And there's so many situations like if you're running for your life, 100 % guaranteed that you're running way quicker than you would if you were just running down the street.

Goes without saying because that fear fuels you in ways that nothing else will.

And I have accepted that and took it on board and used it to help me because there's someone that's watched your fights both on screen but in person i one of the things that i remember about you more so than other fighters i've seen is how calm you look in the ring yep and i don't i'm like does he just know he's like amazingly good or is there something he's doing because you kind of look how i look when i get to the office and i don't have some six foot five guy that's trying to kill me oh it's all it's all by design though really by design yeah um so one of my one of my absolute heroes in the sport

of mma is a guy called gsp george saint pierre he's one of the best fighters to ever lace up the gloves but not only that he's one of the best humans as well i'm lucky enough to have met him a few times and had some deep discussions with him and he's someone i've studied a lot both inside and outside of the octagon over for the years.

And the thing with GSP is he, like me, has always admitted how scared he was and that's something that I've watched countless interviews and podcasts with him and how he talks about it and stuff.

And he used a method and he actually told me about the method where I'm not sure what the method's called and I don't even know if there's any scientific evidence behind it, but it works for him and it's worked for me on multiple occasions where where if you physically present yourself in a way that even if mentally you don't feel like that, like on fight day, for example, the last thing I feel like doing is smiling, in all honesty.

I'm not in a smiley mood, but when you smile, you feel good, you relax, you enjoy yourself, you're confident.

So I will walk around fake smiling with my head held high and my shoulders back like there's nothing bothering me in the world, not because there isn't anything bothering me, because trust me, on fight day, there's a lot of stuff bothering me.

I have to get in there in front of millions of people and have a fight with someone, and it's highly likely that I'm going to be separated from my own consciousness in front of millions of people.

The last thing I want to do is walk around with a smile on my face, with my shoulders back, with my head up high, being friendly and nice to people and being in a good mood and being relaxed.

That's the last thing I feel.

But I purposely walk around like that all day in every situation that I can possibly be in, and sooner or later, believe it or not, my mind will actually start to follow my body's lead.

And it's unbelievable.

It's unbelievable the way that that can happen.

And like you say, you'll see me.

I'm stood there in the octagon, and I am scared to death.

My opponent is looking at me across the octagon like he wants to kill me.

And I'm looking back like I'm in the queue for a sandwich. By design.

By design, I do it.

The same with the walk to the octagon.

There's a million people throwing beer on me, shouting in my face, booing me, sticking fingers up in my face, saying that I'm going to die, literally, while I'm walking to fight another human being.

And I look like I've just woke up and taken the dog for a walk.

By design, because if your body does it, sooner or later your mind will start to follow.

And like I say, this is like a bro science thing probably.

But this is something that I have experienced a lot myself.

And it's proven, at least to me, and to George as well, that it can be done.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for.

This question is hilarious as far as I'm concerned.

And it kind of reveals who left the question.

Right. The question is, it's weird saying this to you, why don't you work harder?

That's a good question.

Who's left that? can you can you figure it out from what you said no so this was the last guest i told you i was in america oh mr beast mr beast why don't you work harder that's a good question it's a good question i like to think i work as hard as i can but i think if everybody looks at self in the mirror i think everybody could work a bit harder i think i probably like sleep too much is the reason that I don't.

I think that's the only thing holding me back because when I'm awake, everything's geared towards me being the best that I can be.

So I think maybe I like sleep a little bit too much. Well, sleep makes you work harder.

It does. That's what I thought.

That's what I thought.

That's still working hard as far as I'm concerned.

Tom, thank you so much. You are such an incredible inspiration for so many reasons, mainly because you're so remarkably down to earth but at the same time able to confidently say on camera which I by the way really really admire respect that you think you're special and I think there's a certain nonchalantness that sometimes people come with because they're trying to be like fake humble yeah but I really respect people that say no no I think I'm special and to be able to say that with such humility but also with such a track record to justify that claim is tremendously inspiring because you come

from as you say, like a blue collar area, you come from a normal place.

You're a normal guy that has just committed himself to something despite any short -term or medium -term rewards in your life because you loved it and you believed in yourself.

And I think that for anybody listening should be evidence enough that we all have a chance at at least something.

It might not be being the heavyweight champion of the world because you acknowledge you have physical gifts that, you know myself I didn't I wasn't born with but um but we can all do something with that obsession with that focus with a supporting group of people around us with the right mentality and with a commitment to it despite um the objective reality that we're going through but also I admire you so much because of everything you've said about your child with autism and the work you're doing to push harder for um to reduce the diagnosis times in the NHS at the moment which which so many

parents out there are going to really appreciate.

And we are all behind you as a nation.

You're a good guy. You'd be the first ever to do, to unify the belts in such a way as a British guy, and wouldn't that be something?

Listen, if anybody can do it, and I'm just saying about the special thing, I wasn't born special.

And like you said, I am from the most regular background.

that you can come from and I don't mean to say I'm not saying I'm special that in the fact that like I'm better than anybody else because I believe that anybody can be special and I think more people need to believe it you know what I mean I think that more people if they work hard enough and don't quit on themselves they can be special as well and uh I think we'll leave it at that amen thank you so much thank you two things I wanted to say the first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.

It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.

But secondly it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started and if you enjoy what we do here please join the 24 % of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.

Here's a promise I'm going to make to you, I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.

We're going to to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all the things you love about this show thank you The Diary of a CEO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

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[Tom Aspinall: The Fear, The Discipline, and the Path to Becoming UFC Heavyweight Champion]-[Tom Aspinall: The UFC Doesn't Want You To Know This! Jon Jones Wasn't Living Like An Athlete!]

📋 Summary

The Unyielding Path to the Top: Insights from Tom Aspinall

The Role of Fear as Fuel

The Power of Visualization and Routine

Overcoming Adversity and Rock Bottom

Advocacy and Purpose

Legacy and Future

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