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Lauren, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks so much, Kwame, for having me on today.
I really appreciate it.
Yes, it is our pleasure.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure.
Hi, everybody.
My name is Lauren Sabo, and I am a former multi-intensive special education teacher turned attorney.
So now I run my own law firm, Sabo Law, in Columbus Ohio, and I do education and special education law.
So really anything and everything related to students and education, pre-K through PhD.
So that keeps me pretty busy these days.
Yes.
And I know the firm is doing well.
So kudos on everything that you've built since law school.
And listeners, yes, we are law school buddies.
So this will be a fun episode coming up.
So it's going to be a reverse interview.
Lauren is actually going to be interviewing me.
So the tables have turned, or as they would say in the office, how the turntables.
Yes.
So we're going to talk about how to negotiate with clients, but focus on difficult clients.
And so Lauren, I'll just hand the ball over to you.
You could set the stage and then start grilling me.
Sure.
Yeah.
Thanks Kwame.
I'm excited today because this is something that I know not just lawyers or negotiators deal with right.
Really anybody who's client facing patient, facing businesses, customer service, all of those things.
You're always going to get those challenging clients.
Right.
And so it's something that you can do your best to not take those cases, or whatever the situation is.
But oftentimes you do get difficult clients.
Maybe you disagree.
Maybe they want things that are unrealistic.
So yeah, today we're going to kind of go through dealing with difficult and challenging clients and giving tips and tricks and just realistically, how to work through those, since in everybody's career you're going to deal with difficult people.
Definitely, definitely.
And I think most people here who are listening, who are in the business world, had experiences with this.
And even if you're not in the business world in this type of way, we all have clients Yes, it is.
Exactly.
It certainly is.
Exactly.
And I know we'll hit on different topics.
And again that again really relates to kind of any field.
Any of those situations.
So people can be able to take away a few things and move forward, because dealing with those people is hard.
But oftentimes you know just, there are some things you can do to be proactive as well, so that you don't get into those situations as frequently.
For sure.
Okay, Kwame.
So first question, I think to set the stage a little bit more, is just can you share some common traits or characteristics of difficult clients that you might encounter, whether in a negotiation or just in general?
What would you say are some characteristics that you think people can kind of look out for?
Here's a simple way to think about it.
I would say that the difficult clients.
A lot of times we will focus on their tone and the way that they treat us and things like that.
But I think that's very narrow.
That's a subset for sure, but I think that's a bit too narrow.
And I think if we expand it, we can recognize just how ubiquitous this experience is, how challenging it can be.
So let's just think about a client who is labeled as difficult.
Usually they're difficult because they are causing frustration to you in some way.
People can be very frustrating with a smile.
You and i have kids.
We know that right absolutely always happen, and so if we think about frustration as the unpleasant emotional response that occurs when you are moving toward a goal and then something or someone is getting in the way of that goal, we can recognize yes, difficult clients are everywhere, and so when we think about that, it comes down a lot of times to our expectations.
A lot of times what ends up happening is we come into these situations and we expect that it's going to be much easier than it actually is.
So we just say, everything's fine.
No problem.
I'm going to just go through and there will be absolutely no resistance.
Or we recognize that there is some discrepancy, some challenge, and we say to ourselves oh okay, the only reason that I'm experiencing this challenge is because they are not seeing things the way that I see it.
So all I need to do is have a conversation, impart my knowledge into them, and then they will as well be enlightened, like me, and there will be no problems.
So since that doesn't happen, that's what we label them as difficult.
Would you say oftentimes... clients are difficult at the start?
Or do you find that some clients, things are going really well and then things pop up?
Or are there kind of things that people can look out for?
Just again to have those open lines of communication.
Definitely in my line of work people don't hire a education or special education attorney if things are going well.
So I think for me, my threshold is just different.
So I get a lot more clients who they are in a crisis with their child or they themselves as a student in an education situation.
That's very real, has a lot of consequences, right.
So I think my threshold might be a little bit different.
But what would you say?
Just you know, I think again there are some things to look out for, right.
To kind of be able to head that off.
So the answer is yes and no.
So there are going to be some times where you have signs, where you see some patterns that you've seen before and you say you know what this might be challenging.
Let me get ready.
And most likely it ends up being that way.
Sometimes you can be pleasantly surprised.
But you see it coming and then you gear yourself up for it.
But I will also say it's those times where you think everything is fine that is the most difficult.
Because if I know I'm gonna have a hard day, I wake up, I'm like, I'm gearing up for war.
I know it's gonna be a tough day.
I've got a lot of things on my calendar to do.
And so I'm ready for it.
But it's those days, the days that are the hardest are the days that I think are gonna be easy.
And then something surprisingly challenging occurs.
And so in sports, they have this saying, stay ready so you don't need to get ready.
Yes.
I'm a college athlete, Kwame, so I definitely feel that.
Yeah.
And so we need to bring that same energy to these conversations.
If we are just assuming that everything is going to be good, then a lot of times what we're doing is we're using what I call hope based strategies, where we just say well, I sure do hope that nothing goes wrong.
Hope is not a strategy.
We have to be ready.
And so I think the thing is, if you take the time to be prepared in general for potential disruptions, potential challenges, then you're going to be more mentally ready, not just prepared.
Yes, preparation is a part of it.
So you can be strategically prepared.
But I think it's that mental preparation and emotional preparation that we are often not ready for.
And because of that, there is that it just feels a lot harder than it needs to be.
And so for us, it's like, before these conversations start, you want to make sure that you have your ducks in a row.
You want to have everything prepared.
You want to be prepared for the difficult conversation.
You want to make sure that you're doing a good job of explaining things up front.
And the best time to try to solve a problem is before it even happens.
Forcing is not the right word.
You want to start pushing these difficult conversations early.
And so you might be pleasantly surprised.
Hey, there might be a discrepancy in our expectations coming down the road, maybe in two to four weeks.
So I'm going to have a conversation about it right now.
And then who knows?
We might be on the same page.
No harm, no foul.
We can just continue to move forward.
But if there is going to be a deviation in expectations in the future, I want to address it now, because the sooner I address those expectations, the sooner I can actually negotiate those expectations.
Because maybe, maybe we find out that this is a deal that never should have happened.
Maybe we find out that this relationship is completely untenable.
It's better for us to find that out now than into the future.
So just being better at anticipation and preparation, just those two things will help you a lot of times with these difficult conversations.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
So you mentioned managing client expectations, right?
So I think that's huge.
And like you said, I love the idea of kind of, you know, right.
You're not, you're not waiting on something waiting.
Oh, it's the day before big hearing a big meeting, a big negotiation, whatever it is.
So how do you ensure alignment between your client's goals and the negotiated outcomes?
It is challenging.
And let me tell you a story.
So you know how as lawyers, we're required to have bar liability insurance.
So for those of you who are not lawyers, as lawyers, we are required to have insurance.
So if anything happens, if we make a mistake, the client still has some method of recouping some of the losses that they had.
So I was talking I won't say the name, but I was talking to the CEO of one of those companies before.
And he said about...
33, so a full third of the malpractice cases against lawyers come down to the fact that they did not do a good job of managing client expectations.
Yes.
So the lawyer goes out, they get the client, they do the very best they can and then they get a good result.
So let's just use, let's say it's a civil type of situation and you go, you negotiate a settlement, or you win a judgment and you get the client 500000.
And based on precedent and everything, maybe people were expecting $450,000.
Other lawyers who know, right?
And so they say, wow, you got 500K out of that?
That's impressive.
That's really good.
But if your client was expecting a $5 million judgment, they're going to be very, very frustrated.
I think a lot of times it almost feels like we are cheapening our expertise, to have to have conversations that seem so low level.
We want to just come in and talk about what we're going to do.
And then the client should just sit on the sidelines and then look at us and clap and cheer us and be happy.
Great job.
Great job.
Whatever you got is good job, right?
But really what we have to say is we have to slow down this process.
This is one of the times where we have to go slow in order to go fast.
Because in these conversations we might have to ask some questions that seem almost insultingly simple.
So a client might come, they might have a problem.
They say, Kwame, solve it.
And I say, Hey, all right.
So before we continue, give me a, be very, very clear about this problem.
What does it mean to you?
What impact does it have on you?
I want to just get as deep as I possibly can, layer by layer, a full understanding of how they are seeing the situation.
All right.
And what is it that you hope to get out of this?
What does a win look like for you?
Important question, because a win for me might look very different from a win for the client.
And so if the client says something that is vastly different from what is realistic, I need to address that in that moment.
Okay.
So how did you come to that conclusion?
Where did you get that number?
Okay.
Well, this is what the, what the, it might be science says.
If we're talking about a different industry, this is what the law says.
This is what is realistic.
And so we have to have that.
We have to negotiate those expectations.
And then what we have to recognize is that sometimes those unrealistic expectations are non-negotiable for that person.
And then we need to ask ourselves, am I willing to take this risk?
Because even if I perform at my very, very best, it still won't be good enough in this situation.
Now the shifts from an external negotiation to an internal negotiation because, especially if you're an entrepreneur, you're saying hey, money in the door, that's good.
I've taken so long to build this business.
Why would I say no to money?
That's the lifeblood of this company.
But then you have to recognize that not all money is good money.
Not all clients are good clients.
It's not all worth it, right?
It's not all worth it.
And so you have to step back and say, all right, well, now the ball's in my court.
Now I have the opportunity to make a decision.
And so a lot of times, because we have that internal conflict within ourselves, we might make a bad decision, even though we can recognize and we can see the future.
This will probably be a problem, but we can convince ourselves otherwise.
And sometimes we just put ourselves in bad positions and it's not necessarily the client's fault.
It's our fault for making the wrong decision.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
Really getting to the heart of the matter.
I think that's very important.
Like you said, what is a win for your client?
Because again, that does look very different.
And some people, it might not be about money.
They might want a written apology, right?
From some very high ups that could be really hard to do too, right?
Where money actually might be easier in that situation.
So, you know, you talked about, right, goals and figuring out client goals.
So in the initial consult, or someone walks through your door right and they want or they schedule online with you even I mean, I think about I've had this conversation with a hairstylist, right.
And someone walks through the door, like you said, money in the door, right?
But what if you either don't have the time or in that initial consultation you did not figure that out, that maybe this wouldn't be a good match?
What I found is that sometimes the best thing you can do is just admit you made a mistake.
And a lot of times we end up gaslighting ourselves and others by pretending that we did not make a mistake.
And so it's the easy and simple and obvious solution.
But just because it's simple doesn't make it easy to execute.
That's a different thing.
Right, because there's our humility might not be where it needs to be and we might not feel comfortable being that vulnerable in that situation.
And what ends up happening?
What i've seen in my life, in the lives of clients.
When i think about back when i was practicing law, more often they get in trouble because of this.
When i think about the clients that we have with a and i, sometimes they get in trouble with this too.
They find themselves in a situation where they have made a mistake, but they want to solve the problem in every single possible way other than admitting that they made a mistake.
And then the person on the other side understands that there's a problem.
And now we just we are diminishing trust and credibility throughout this process because there's an issue.
They can see that there's an issue, but we're hiding the information that they need in order to understand what that issue is fully.
And so what I found is that, when I make a mistake, the faster I acknowledge the mistake, the better, because we have two options.
It's just a fork in the road at this point.
Option number one, they say, hey, this is annoying.
I would have rather you not make this mistake, but I appreciate you telling me no, this is not the right way for us to go.
Thank you.
Wish you the best.
All right.
Minimal damage on both sides.
And the faster I do that, the faster they can recover and find the right solution for them.
The other side is I admit that I make a mistake.
I apologize.
And I tell them what I'm going to do differently and then say balls in your court if you want to go in a different direction.
I fully respect that, fully understand.
But if you want to stick with us, this is what the mistake was.
These are the changes that we will make and we have made.
And so going forward, this mistake won't happen.
You can actually turn that into an opportunity.
So I'll give you an example.
So one time I was ordering groceries that were going to be delivered to our house.
And so we were excited for our groceries.
We got the notification that it arrived and I go outside and they're not there.
So I look at the porch.
Not there.
I said, well, maybe they put it at the side door.
Walk around.
Not there.
And I'm like, man, where is this?
And so I get a call and then it's like a, like just a, an exasperated customer service agent.
Like, Hey, this is so-and-so from blah, blah, blah.
Did you get your groceries?
No, I didn't.
And he said, we are so sorry.
This has been, this person has done this to several families in the community today.
We are so sorry.
We took your order.
We gave it to somebody else to handle and we're going to comp you this.
Sorry about that.
And so fast, immediate response.
And I've been with that company ever since because I can trust them.
They're not going to be perfect.
Nobody's going to be perfect.
But I know that when they're going to make that mistake, I can trust them to fix the problem.
And so when we make these mistakes, a lot of times we are damaging not only the other person but also ourselves, because we're not giving ourselves an opportunity to strengthen the relationship by acknowledging that we made a mistake, building trust and moving forward from that.
Yeah, I think that's so important and something that I know in the healthcare profession that over the years and I think in lawyering too, sometimes you know you're told not to apologize, right.
Or it's kind of an unwritten, oh, don't say I'm sorry, right?
The actual words, I am sorry, right?
And I get this in juvenile court too, because I represent young people who get in trouble in school, but also, you know, if they pick up charges.
And it's so interesting because oftentimes an apology really can make a huge difference.
Right.
And we all make mistakes, you know, and young people make mistakes.
But when they really write a genuine apology and it's not me writing it.
Right.
And it's not me editing it, redlining it.
It's it's them writing it and saying it.
That goes a long way with the school, with the court and all of that.
So as an adult, when would you say when do you apologize?
And is there ever a scenario where you don't? apologize or you shouldn't say the words, I'm sorry.
Yeah.
So here's the thing for me.
I don't want to say.
I love apologies and it never feels good, but I appreciate the efficacy of a well-timed apology.
I recognize it's one of the most powerful rhetorical and persuasion techniques we have.
Right.
And so I'm never afraid to apologize.
I'll do that really quickly.
The only time that I don't apologize is when I didn't do anything wrong.
I'm not going to admit fault when I didn't do anything wrong, but that doesn't mean that I cannot acknowledge damage or harm.
Right.
And so for instance, if we have to think about just the semantics behind an apology, that's that.
And then let's talk about the scenarios too.
So there is a big difference between if versus that.
So I'm sorry if. versus I'm sorry that.
And I remember I was doing a training one time and there was a couple husband and wife been married for like 30 years in the front row.
And I explained it.
I said, okay, which sounds better?
I'm sorry if you felt that way or I'm sorry that you felt that way.
And the husband raises his hand.
He's like, if.
I was like, oh man, bro, you're wrong.
And she's like, thank you.
I've been telling him that for years.
It does matter.
It does.
Because if you're saying I'm sorry if, this happened to you.
What you're doing, number one is we're denying the fact, calling into question whether or not that occurred.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is especially on the emotional side.
We're saying hey, what I did was completely okay.
And I'm sorry that you are so oddly fragile that you thought my okay behavior was hurtful.
I'm sorry that you are you.
It makes things worse.
So I'm sorry that, and then insert whatever happened.
And then in those now, let's actually talk about the difference between the times that I would apologize versus the times that I would not apologize.
So I will apologize if I recognize that my behavior had an impact on somebody else that was negative.
And so recognize I'm not putting a value judgment on it.
People can cause harm.
While being completely positive forthright, honest and true.
Right, i can be trying my very, very best and accidentally hurt somebody.
It doesn't take anything away from me to acknowledge that.
Hey, i'm really sorry that what i did had this impact on you.
I recognize it had this impact on you for these reasons and i apologize.
Next time i will do xyz differently to make sure it doesn't have this impact on you.
That's how i would apologize.
I'll still acknowledge harm.
I'll say hey listen, I can recognize that you're upset about this and I can recognize this had an impact on you, because you said this and this and this.
And based on what you're describing, I believe it caused harm.
And that's really unfortunate.
And I think we have an opportunity now to think about what we can do differently in the future to make sure this doesn't happen again.
I'm not admitting that I did anything wrong there, but I am recognizing that something bad happened to that person.
And a lot of times they just really want that acknowledgement.
And so people might be saying, well, do I need to apologize?
Let's flip the script.
Let's flip the script.
You believe somebody hurt you, and then they do not acknowledge that they hurt you.
Now you create this relationship dynamic where now you are obsessively focused on that thing.
I can't acknowledge anything else until you acknowledge that.
I can't get past that.
So, as much as you try to change the subject, I can't even feel safe with you if I'm going to be hurt as a result of what you did and you're not going to do anything about it.
So what's the future of this relationship?
You're just going to keep on hurting me over and over and over again and not doing anything about it.
I don't feel safe.
So no, I can't get past this, because if I get past this, I just give you another opportunity to hurt me.
And I think, if we think about it from their perspective, them looking at us, then we realize hey, even though in my story I am the hero that never makes any mistakes, in their story, in this moment I'm the villain.
And so I cannot just, the Joker can't go up to Batman and say, hey, I'm a good guy.
And Batman will say, oh my gosh, I didn't think of it that way.
That's just not psychologically realistic.
And so what we have to do from time to time is step into their world, acknowledge their pain and then talk about what we could do collectively to move forward.
And then you have an opportunity to mend things back together.
Yeah, I really like that.
So what about if your client, as much as you're on their side, right?
You're representing them zealously, doing good work.
But again, what if maybe their wants or needs or what they're hoping for is unrealistic?
You've explained that, you've gone over that, and yet your client just still cannot get to.
Yes, right?
We just can't get this done.
And then almost they're either bullying you, right?
Or feeling as though they have some type of leverage over you, or wanting you to communicate something that you fundamentally disagree with.
What do you do in that situation?
Yes.
So let's zoom out, then zoom back in.
And so for me as a negotiation guy, this will not be surprising, but I am intentional about trying to live my life in a way that gives me the most freedom, autonomy and leverage as possible at all times, while making sure I'm mindful of the power dynamics in every relationship, every interaction, and recognizing that I am not willing to put myself in a position where somebody has substantial leverage over me.
A simple way to think about power and leverage.
Just a quick primer on this power is the ability to influence.
If I have power, I can make you do things, right?
And then, when we think about that, a lot of times power comes from structures hierarchies, something that's a little bit more concrete.
Power can shift with time, but it's a little bit more stable.
So if I'm a multimillion dollar company negotiating with multibillion dollar companies.
They have more power.
If I'm in a company and there's a boss over me, then they have more power.
But power is different from leverage.
Leverage is situational advantage.
So somebody might have power but the other person might have leverage just because of the unique circumstances.
So I want to be mindful of those two dynamics in every situation.
And especially if I see the potential of somebody who might be a difficult client.
I am not going to put myself in a position where they have any kind of power over me.
It's kind of like, as they are trying to get me as a service provider, whether it's me as the American Negotiation Institute or back when I was practicing more often.
I'm still evaluating them.
I'm interviewing you.
I'm going to see if you're worth my time.
And so we have to remember this fundamental truth about negotiation.
Negotiation isn't the art of deal making.
Negotiation is the art of deal discovery.
You and me, we're having a conversation.
We're trying to figure out whether or not there is a deal to be had.
You are bullying me.
Absolutely not.
There's no deal.
And so with all of these things, I want to be very, very clear that I'm stingy with my yeses.
I'm going to be very generous with my nos, right?
So I want to be able to connect with people and work with people that I gel with, where there's flow, where there's rapport.
I perform better and I'm going to enjoy it more.
I'm going to have more left in the tank for my other clients and for my family when I get home.
Think about it.
It's like the Pareto principle.
The 80-20 rule.
So 20% of your bad clients are going to cause 80% of your problems.
So the solution is to just cut them.
And so when they think that they have leverage, I make it clear that they don't.
I say, hey, listen, I really appreciate your time.
It does not seem like this is a match.
I think here are some resources.
Back when I was practicing, I loved just sending people to avo, A-V-V-O dot com.
It's like, here, this is where you can go find some other lawyers.
Find someone else.
Yep.
Yeah.
I'm not going to refer a friend because I like my friends.
Yeah.
And I don't want them to have to deal with you, but it's not going to be me.
And just one last point on this.
This is not, like at that point, that's not a negotiation.
That's a decision.
The deal is done.
You showed me who you are.
I'm not interested anymore.
You're not going to say, ah, I was joking.
I'm not evil.
Nah, we're good.
And so I'm going to move on.
And I think what we have to do is we have to give ourselves the permission to have those conclusive finishes.
Yeah.
I think a lot of times we feel obligated because of the typical client service provider relationship that we have to stay in these types of toxic relationships.
But we don't.
And a lot of times we're negotiating in the wrong direction.
We're asking ourselves what can I do to keep this negative client, this difficult client, when in fact we should say what can I do to remove this malignant relationship with minimal damage?
Right.
And I think then there's a relief, right?
When that happens, I think getting to that point is hard.
And, you know, I agree with you.
I think in my career I've gotten to a place where if I feel that bullying or that, oftentimes for me it's because families or students are in a really challenging situation.
Right.
So it's not that it's it's. really, we don't like more in necessarily, right?
It's just there's all these other factors happening, but it's going to come out right in communication to me.
And I'm, you know, have gotten much better over the years at just cutting it off.
Like you said, you know and I don't, it's not necessarily that I am firing the client maybe, but it is me communicating very directly, saying that is not okay.
Essentially, you do not get to communicate with me like that.
Or sometimes it's not even just the tone.
It's they want phone call, a text message and they send me an email, all in the same 20 minutes and they need to speak immediately, right?
And it's like, you don't, you know what I mean?
And your emergency is not my emergency, right?
But it is communicating that and communicating that effectively.
So what tips do you have to communicate that type of either just maybe this is not okay.
And then let's talk about, again, kind of when you actually do withdraw or again, firing a client.
I think people think the word firing is so bad, right?
You get this bad connotation.
But I say all the time in every consult that I do, I say I want you to know you can fire your attorney.
Just like you can go to a different doctor.
I have so many clients who've been seeing the same doctors or their kids for years and years and years.
And every time those appointments are coming up, they're getting so stressed about it.
And I said, well, is that whatever therapy, service, whatever still working for your child?
No, it hasn't been working for years.
Then why are you still going?
Why are you still paying?
And it's like, I have to give them permission to say, you can cancel those appointments.
You can find someone else.
Let's find someone else to be a part of your team that's going to work better.
But it's like people need that permission because they've been with that person for so long.
I think hairdressers are the same way.
Yes.
Well, I used to know, but as you can see... changed over the years.
But yes, you're so right.
And I think when it comes to setting boundaries, we overthink it.
We overthink it.
And so here's a pattern that often happens.
We say to ourselves, okay, well, I need to set this boundary.
I need to put an end to this.
How do I say this?
Oh, well, if I say it like that, they won't take it well.
If I say it like that, it might hurt their feelings.
If I say it like that, it might reflect poorly on me.
And then so we go through this, trying to find this perfect way of articulating this in a way that will end the bad behavior but the person feels good about it.
And shockingly, that does not exist.
And so we just feel stuck in this.
And then maybe the bad thing that happened, let's say happened Monday, the first of the month.
And then we are trying to figure it out, figure it out, figure it out.
And then it's like two weeks later.
And then we ask ourselves, would it be weird if I bring it up?
It's like two weeks later, we've had several interactions.
Well, let me think about it more.
And now it's a month later.
And we're like, man, I can't bring this up.
I'm just going to have to wait till the next time they abuse me to bring this up.
Right.
And so, first of all, anytime you're setting a boundary, the sooner the better.
The sooner you said it, the better, and then, if you recognize, after hearing this little monologue of mine, you're like man, i should have said that boundary, now's the right time.
Still, sooner the better, Sooner the better, right.
And so let's think about boundaries in terms of just two simple components.
Number one, stating your intention.
And number two, clearly setting the boundary.
That's it.
So what is my intention?
Hey, when I am working with a client, I want to make sure that we are treating everybody with respect and we have effective boundaries.
In the past week, you've emailed me 62 times.
You've demanded.
It happens.
I know we laugh, right?
But we do.
Sometimes that happens.
Yeah.
So I want to outline these things that are unacceptable with specificity.
And now and then going forward, what I need is this.
And if that's not something you can do, I respect that.
And maybe I'm not the right client for you.
But if that is something you can do, then we can keep working together.
Right.
So I'm going to state that positive intention.
This is what I want out of this relationship.
I want to have a good working relationship with you.
I want to figure out what's happening so I can provide you with a solution, so you and your family can move on.
However, the problem is these transition phrases are important.
If we say but or however, those are considered the great eraser.
They just erase all of that nice stuff you said before.
So even I catch myself.
I caught myself right now.
I'm not going to say however, or but.
I'm going to say the problem is, I can't do that because of insert this situation here.
And you want to state these things with what I call naked facts.
So these are facts that are stripped of all interpretation, judgment, or opinion.
So, no matter what they say or feel or their opinion on the situation, they can say yes, that is in fact what has occurred.
So I'm going to be as precise as possible and then state what I need with clarity going forward.
And now let's go back to what holds us back, What we talked about before.
I'm trying to find that perfect thing that doesn't have a negative response.
Anytime you're setting a boundary, people aren't going to love it.
Right.
Doesn't matter if it's your best friend, your mom, it doesn't matter.
Right.
Does not matter.
They could truly have your best interest in mind and they are not going to enjoy it.
Even if they know you're objectively correct.
It's like nobody likes to know that something that they did had a negative impact on somebody.
That's always going to create an emotional response that is a little bit unpleasant for the recipient.
But here's the thing, your responsibility is not for their emotions.
You're not responsible for their emotions.
Your job isn't to own their emotions.
Your job is to be emotionally intelligent, be cognizant of their emotional response and then deliver your message in a way that is not doing undue damage to the other person.
I'm not going to go out of my way to be hurtful.
I'm going to try my best to deliver this message very, very clearly, but also recognizing that, as I deliver it clearly and respectfully, it still will probably cause a negative emotional response from the other side.
And that is okay.
It is part of the process.
Yes.
Yes.
We can't, I think it took a long time for me to learn too, but right.
Something, I mean, again, you can't tell someone how to feel Right.
And so if they're feeling a certain way positive or negative, you know that again, you can't control that.
You know, they are going to feel the way they feel.
And that's OK.
Again, it's just your next steps.
Right.
And I think most people that do end up withdrawing or firing a client.
Right.
The reality is, is they probably wish they would have done it sooner.
Every time, Lauren, every time.
And just remember, their emotions don't play by our rules.
Once you explain the circumstance, they're not going to say, oh, you know what?
Now my brain has molded into an exact replica of yours, and my emotional response is exactly the same.
It's like, I can't talk to you about seeing a movie and you're like, oh man, I hated that movie.
And I'm like, I actually liked the movie.
And then you say, well, Kwame, now magically I like it too.
That's not how human brains work, right?
Exactly.
And so we just have to accept that and recognize that the ultimate goal is setting the boundary.
That's the number one priority.
Everything else is secondary.
Yes.
And I have had, you know, that exact situation where I've had to say it's not that they're a bad client or anything.
It's just, you know, they're dealing with a lot too on their plates, right?
The world's kind of a crazy place right now.
But again, when it comes at me in certain ways, you know or they want to, you know it's 932 and they want to talk at 10.
You know what I mean.
It's like, well, I have my day planned, right?
So I will do my best, but realistically, probably we can schedule a call tomorrow.
So a couple of things.
I know I found one, just like you said, communicating it with your intent specificity, saying you know you have called, emailed and texted me about this issue.
That actually was a non-issue, right.
An hour later, because you had incorrect information, right?
So I've had to say, you cannot do that, right?
Because those are three different forms of communication.
I am in client meetings.
I am doing things, right?
So, you know, essentially say certain clients only in general can email me, right?
Or something.
I rarely have to do with this.
It's, it's, once a year, right?
But I will say also, I have some clients that they just want to be communicated with.
And that is another thing that I know lawyers get in trouble for, right?
Is their lack of communication.
And so for some clients I actually just offer them would it be helpful if you and I set a time weekly right?
If it's like a longer ongoing case.
And if we don't need to talk on that Wednesday or Friday afternoon, great.
But at least then, you know, you have my 30 minutes.
Right.
That we are scheduled.
So we're not going back and forth.
And every week the person's, you know, hey, I need to talk to you immediately.
Right.
When there really isn't a true immediacy in the case.
So do you have any other any other thoughts on that?
Because I know sometimes that can be just helpful to to keep that rapport.
Because again, I think, most of the time the clients just want to feel like they know what's going on in their case and they have some control.
And sometimes some of those things are out of their control.
Yeah, I think really, what we have to recognize is that the singular cause for the breakdown of all relationships is the violation of expectation.
And so some people might say communication and everything else that we might say communication, trust those type of things.
Those are symptoms, not the cause.
Because if I say somebody is a bad communicator, that's based on my expectation of what a good communicator is right.
So, given that example where you're saying all right, well for me as a lawyer, I might say I'm going to give you updates when there is something to update you on.
And that might be weeks before you get an update on that.
And in my mind as a lawyer, I might think that's okay, right?
Or hypothetically, the client in their mind says, I need weekly updates.
I need to know, even if nothing happens, I need to hear from you to know that you care.
And so there's a discrepancy there.
Which is right, which is wrong.
It doesn't matter.
It's your job to figure out what is right for this relationship.
So again, going into the relationship, you might not exactly know what that expectation is.
But anytime we are thinking about the potential things that may or may not occur, we need to figure out what those expectations are.
And so with that client, they might need that consistency.
Great.
All right, good.
So I'm going to give you a weekly call.
But then with another client, they might be like, man, this is overkill.
I don't want to talk to you for a week.
Yeah, I mean, I prefer not, right?
It's only when I have, you know, right?
I mean, what about clients, Kwame, who just don't communicate with you?
I know that that actually is very difficult.
Even if there's not like bullying or tension.
What if you're just not getting the information that you need from them in a timely fashion?
I'm laughing because what's funny is you know the saying the lawyer who represents themselves as a fool for an attorney.
So, even though I still practice from time to time, I also have lawyers who work for me as the American Negotiation Institute.
And I realize I am the worst client.
It'll take me months to respond to an email.
So that's why I'm laughing.
But I think it's important to just set that expectation too.
What do I expect from you as a client?
And then also clearly communicating the ramifications of slow responses.
So for me, I'm of counsel at Carlisle, Patch, and Murphy still.
And so I use Carlisle, Patch, and Murphy to be my lawyers for A&I.
So these are my friends.
They're my colleagues.
And so I understand what these legal processes are.
So I know, hey, if I'm not getting back to you, that's on me.
I'm not blaming you.
I'm only hurting myself.
You work on your other clients who are more responsive.
You'll get, I'm not in a rush on this.
And so I think what you have to do is just let people know what they need to know, and then give them the power to make a decision.
And I think that's one thing that comes with persuasion.
That is often missed, because with persuasion we're always thinking about it from the lens of how can I get this person to do what I want them to do?
But sometimes the best and purest form of persuasion is mutual communication, to the point where everybody has the information they need to make the best decision for them.
And so, in this situation, what you would do if you want your client to communicate more frequently?
Just say hey, I would prefer it if we communicated with this level of frequency.
And if I email you or ask a question or something like that, if we could get a response within this timeline?
This helps me in this way and that way and this way.
And now, if I do not get that communication from you in that timely manner, it hurts us in this way, in this way, in this way.
And these are the consequences that will happen to you as a result of this.
And, Of course, create a paper trail, because people conveniently forget, in the heat of the moment, when things go poorly and it's their fault.
Whenever things go badly, we have a natural human tendency to seek blame, and we never blame ourselves.
We always seek to blame somebody else.
So communicate that verbally.
And then you want to take the time to document that in email and then say I respect you as an adult.
The choice is yours.
Yeah, I love that.
So when you say, you know, the why, right?
Like give the why.
I learned that when I was, You know, a teacher at 22 years old, because I think you know you get emails and it's like oh, you need to do this survey or this or this.
And people just put it off.
But if you put the why and the same is true for students, right?
If you tell them hey, you know, we're going to work on this and I need everybody to do X, and this is why this is why it's important, or this is why this right, there's a consequence, or this is why this is going to help you.
It's amazing.
99% of the time, people will do it.
They'll do it on time.
They'll say hey, I need everybody's order in by you know, Friday at 5 pm, because I'm going to put the order in at 530, right?
So if your order, you know, if you didn't put your t-shirt size in or your food order, you will not get food.
It's amazing.
People will do it, right?
So the why to me from my teaching days is hugely important.
Usually is a great just, again, people want to know why.
Just like I, same thing.
I'm not going to sit there and do an email that's unimportant, right?
Or it's not going to be first on my list.
And then something you said was interesting, you know, some sports references.
But for the way that I look at it, I was a basketball player and coach and high school coach and everything.
And so you know, for some cases and clients it really I view it as basketball, meaning sometimes it's a full court press.
Sometimes you have to back off.
Right.
And you really have to.
And that's OK.
And again, I think some people in their cases think, you know, This is what they've been dealing with for potentially, you know weeks months years, right.
Or they're in crisis.
And I get that, you know, and that is very challenging.
But at the end of the day, sometimes a case actually, you know, going slower in this part is beneficial for your case, right?
So I use that analogy with my clients and it really seems to work too when I say tell them that sometimes, but also just in the way that I communicate with them.
Because I think if you communicate immediately with people all the time, then the times that you don't because you're in a mediation all day, or because you're in court or you're taking a vacation then that's when you kind of get the I call them the nasty grams, right.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I love finding the metaphors and analogies that work because, especially when you are in a like a specialized field, there are going to be times where there are things that you understand that other people don't understand.
And that's going to be quite frequent.
And there are two things that will come into play here.
More than two, but let's make it three.
So first thing is the curse of knowledge.
So when you know something, it is hard to empathize with somebody who does not know that thing.
And we forget how it feels to not know that thing.
And so a lot of times that leads us to assume that something that is simple to us and obvious to us is obvious to the other side too.
And so because of that, we don't explain it, right?
So taking the time to explain it using those metaphors that people can understand is a really, really powerful thing.
The other thing is additive bias as well.
So this is the tendency to feel like we always need to add more and more and more and more detail to what it is that we're saying.
And a lot of times it overwhelms the other side.
And we could have gotten it done with just like three minutes of dialogue, but now we're 30 minutes and we have essentially done like a you know, a treatise on law on something that they did not need.
Right.
And then the third thing, this is really, really, really, really, really important.
People typically are not comfortable being vulnerable enough to admit that they do not understand or know something.
And so you go, you have your curse of knowledge.
So you don't empathize with the person who doesn't understand.
You have the additive bias.
You gave them a whole bunch of technical detail and jargon that they did not need.
And then here we have somebody who is listening to you.
And then you say, so does that make sense to you?
What are they going to say?
Yeah.
Yeah, sure.
Yep.
And then fast forward three months down the line and they are confused and angry because usually remember, with these emotional cocktails it's not just one thing.
Anger is typically a secondary emotion.
There's something that triggers that.
If I'm confused, I'm going to get angry too a lot of times.
Or embarrassed.
Or embarrassed, right?
That's a good one.
And so we put those things together and now you're saying, what's wrong with this person?
I had a 30-minute conversation with them and articulated myself perfectly.
We were exchanging words, but we weren't truly communicating.
And the more technical the field, the more we have to be cognizant of this.
So I've seen it for me, of course, in law.
You're in law too.
We have some big clients like big Fortune 500 tech companies, talking about the designers within those companies.
And so a lot of times we have differences of opinions between the design team who's developing this tech.
And then we have differences of opinion between the design team, the business development team and then like, the engineering team.
And so the design team wants to put something beautiful together.
The engineering team wants to put something together that works.
And the business development team just wants to sell it.
Right.
They don't care.
They don't care.
And so they all end up talking past each other with their jargon.
And they're like, we're communicating all the time.
But it's not effective.
It's not effective.
Yes.
Yeah, I know, for me the biggest thing, and I am like I was at a conference speaking a while back and you know it was a big room of people and it was all educators.
And you know I said raise your hand if you have an agenda for your IEP meetings and you send it out to parents in advance.
I think one person in this huge room of people.
And, you know, it was kind of, I mean, was I surprised?
No, because again, you know, this is the work that I do.
But it's amazing because before it doesn't matter the meeting.
It doesn't matter if it's an IEP meeting, an expulsion, you know, it doesn't matter.
But the goal is I always Whatever.
And we can call an agenda, but essentially bullet points.
You know, what are my client's goals?
What do we need to discuss?
Right.
And I always send that to the other party in advance because I'm not trying to trick anybody.
Right.
And I send it to my client.
I've got, you know, a morning meeting tomorrow.
I send it to the client today just saying following up, because we had put this together three weeks ago.
So is there anything else to add?
Right.
And that just it's so helpful.
Right.
Because then when you start a meeting that could be contentious on either side, you know people are able to communicate better.
But I know I had.
I did have one more question on my end in terms of difficult or challenging clients.
So sometimes, you know, it just either isn't working or, you know, whatever the situation is.
And that's OK.
You know, and again, you're parting ways.
But when do you give them what they want?
Meaning what?
Sometimes they want maybe a reimbursement, a refund.
I mean, I joke with my husband all the time.
You know REI, we used to live in Denver and REI used to have a lifetime guarantee.
You could bring anything back whenever, for whatever reason.
Right.
And they would give you money or give you a new one.
They have gone away from that.
Right.
Since then.
And I used to work at Polo.
That was like a high school job of mine many moons ago.
And their customer service policy was essentially basically the customer is always right.
So same thing.
Somebody would come in with a plastic bag of old sheets that were not even Polo Ralph Lauren.
And I would have to give them a gift certificate to buy new sheets.
Right.
So you know when do you give what they want and when do you say no.
You know, I'm holding my line.
Lauren, we almost did it.
We had two lawyers here on a podcast talking about anything and we almost made it without saying it depends.
But now is the time.
Yes, I know.
I try so hard not to say it depends, but sometimes, right, that just is part of the answer.
It just has to be.
And so I remember when I was going through the Supreme Court mentoring program, my mentor was really clear on this.
He said in my experience as a lawyer, if there's ever a client ever a client that is upset you and they want their money back, you immediately apologize and give them the money back.
That was his policy.
And he said it's for one simple reason.
They can complain to the bar.
They could file a complaint with the bar.
And if they file a complaint with the bar, regardless of how spurious that claim is, it doesn't matter.
Because it's your problem now.
And it's all public.
It does not look good.
It's bad for business.
And so he's like, whatever the money is that they're asking for it back, it pales in comparison to the pain and tedium of having to deal with the bar on the back end.
So he's like, I always give it back.
I never fight them.
Never.
Interesting.
And that was his school of thought.
His school of thought now with A&I is a little bit different because we our clients are big.
So we have lots of Fortune 500 companies.
And so we these companies are like there's one big, massive, multibillion dollar company.
And then there are hundreds of micro companies within this company.
Right.
And so we could have let's say we are brought in to talk.
So let's say we're brought in to talk to their design team.
Yeah.
It's a tech company, like a fortune 10 tech company.
And we're brought in to talk to their design company, their designers.
Okay.
They're UX designers.
Great.
So they want some conversational tips difficult conversation tips on how they can negotiate better with the business development team and the engineering team.
Because they're talking past each other.
Great.
So we have a great relationship with our clients within that company.
And then the deal is passed to the finance department and the finance department.
I was just thinking to make sure I don't have any clients that are finance departments.
They're always horrible to deal with, Lauren.
Always, always horrible.
And so finance department's job is to not pay people.
So we will create these really great agreements with our clients.
And then when it goes to the finance team, they always give us just the hardest time.
It's so hard for them to give up that money that we are owed within a timely manner.
And so for me and my team, we're like, they're not... the real client.
They're just the people who hold the money.
And I say, go to war with them.
That's fine.
Go to war, right?
So in those situations, you have to understand who's your real client.
And if it's just somebody holding the purse, all right, great.
Yeah, I'm going to be pretty aggressive, because if you're not aggressive with them, they're just not going to pay.
They're just going to wait as long as possible until you explode at some point.
But Within the client, like when we're actually talking to the client, the people who brought us in, we're really accommodating.
Like we'll be very flexible because at the end of the day, we're playing for the same team.
We want the same thing.
I want to come in and give this training and give this strategic advice.
And I want you to be successful, because when you're successful, I look good, because a happy client makes us look good.
That's a good thing. thing.
If there's any discrepancy between deliverables maybe it wasn't clearly articulated or things like that then we just say hey, it is our job to be clearer with the contract terms.
So if you thought that you had that, I can look and see there's an ambiguity.
We're going to handle that.
We're going to eat that.
And then we're going to make sure that we're clearer in the future when it comes to the contract terms.
So I'm much more accommodating with the people who are actually our clients in this space.
But then...
When it's their legal and their finance team, I'm cool going to war.
And it's so funny how my mentality has changed from when I was actually practicing law to going into the business world.
Because I just feel like working with lawyers who are opposing counsel, I think there's just a a deeper level of respect that happens.
Like hey listen, you have your client, I have my client.
They don't like each other, but we can have enough respect to work well each other.
But when we work with the client, the lawyers, internally within some of these big organizations, I feel like there's a bit of a level of disrespect that they have for people who are non-lawyers.
That's interesting.
And they don't realize that I too am a lawyer.
Right, right.
I'm ready to go to war.
So it's about knowing who your real client is in that situation.
Yeah, I like that.
And I had a mentor too Kwame, who actually said something similar years ago about maybe not necessarily about refunding money, but in terms of never suing a client right.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, if you close out a case or whatever the situation is and there is an outstanding bill or whatever the case is, hopefully they pay that right.
But if they don't, the advice that I was given is, like you said it's just not worth ever suing a client.
Some people might feel differently, right?
And they set it to collections or whatever the case is.
But Yeah, so my advice was a little bit different than I had been given.
But again, the time, money, energy, sometimes you're just glad to be done with that client.
You know what I mean?
And so, like you said, the amount of money oftentimes is not worth it.
And I think that if you, you know your other great clients are worth it right and putting the time, energy and all of that into them.
But yeah, this has been really fun.
I think you know, like I said, everybody has to deal with difficult people and clients in their day to day.
Hopefully not that often, but so many things you know I think you can do, like you said, just to hit it head on and you know, make sure that you're doing your best but also not feeling guilty about it, because so many people it's like people need to feel permission or be told that it is okay again to fire X person or to go separate ways, right.
Or withdraw from a case.
And in terms of withdrawing it from a case if it is in court or something, there are ethical obligations obviously that you just can't leave that client high and dry.
But outside of that, as long as you're doing everything right and making sure they know some of the legalities of that, most of the time, like you said, every single time, I think people wish they would have dealt with the client sooner, dealt with the situation sooner or just parted ways much sooner.
One hundred percent, and i think it's so funny lauren, when it comes down to all of these difficult conversations, it usually comes down to mainly two things it's like overcoming your emotions and within that is giving yourself permission to have the conversation and then having the conversation.
Because the nuances of the conversation, once you get into it, it's just a simple negotiation.
But the mistakes that we make typically come down to, first of all, not having the conversation at all, not setting effective boundaries and not giving ourselves permission to walk away.
And so we feel trapped, even though we have the freedom to do what's best for us.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And, like you said, the times that You do have to set those boundaries and say hey, if this isn't working, that's OK.
I mean, in my experience, my clients typically like, oh, I'm so sorry.
Right.
Like we want you.
It is working, you know, and they do feel bad.
And, you know, again, maybe they're having a bad day or whatever.
But my point is we get back on track.
Right.
But it would not have been OK if I didn't address it like you said and wait those two weeks or wait the month.
And then two months go by and you're like, I'm waiting for something else to happen.
And that's just not a good feeling for anybody.
Right.
Oh, this is great.
This is great.
Lauren, I really appreciate you coming on the show.
And before you go, let the listeners know about the firm and how they can get in touch.
Sure.
Yeah.
So they can find me at www.studentlawohio.com and look us up online.
I also have a couple non-attorney special education advocates that also do some wonderful work in the special education field.
But yeah, anything education-related or special education, that's my background.
And the passion that I have is working with students and families in really difficult situations.
So feel free to reach out or email us at info at studentlawohio.com.
Amazing.
Lauren, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
No problem, Kwame.
Thanks so much for having me today.
