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Patrice, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
This has been a long time coming.
How would you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Well, a little bit about myself.
I'm a fellow podcaster.
My podcast is Redefining Wealth, and it was born out of my desire to teach people that wealth is so much more than money and material possessions.
The 12th century definition of wealth is the condition of well-being.
So as a financial psychology nerd and someone who's really into behavioral finance, I'm so You know I believe in the power of budgets, but I'm so much more committed to helping people just change their behavior, their conversation, their mindset around money and all things related to it.
And so that's what I've been up to for about the last 10 years.
I've done everything in this space, from become a best selling author working on my fifth book now to speak internationally, as well as do a lot of media radio and television.
So I'm just a woman who's passionate about helping people make progress in this space, mostly because of my own story losing it all in the recession.
And a time that felt very much like the one we're in now uncertain and a lot of stress and strife and, you know, just not knowing what the next day may hold to rebuilding my life over these last several years.
So I just want to help as many people as I can.
Fantastic.
Well, we're excited to have you here and talking about personal finance but, more specifically, how to have those difficult conversations about money.
And for you listeners out here, same challenge.
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Give us a five star review.
That would be really helpful for us and it helps other people to recognize that there's value in what we're doing.
And if you've already given us a five star review.
Thank you.
And make sure you subscribe and share it with your friends.
And so Patrice, starting this off, when we talk about money, when it comes to talking about money with our friends, our family but, more in particular, our partners,
Why is it so hard to do?
It's so personal.
It's hard to do because you would think that numbers were just black and white and it was just dollars and cents.
But the truth is money is so emotional. for all of us.
And in this country, in the United States, in particular, it's one of those things that you just guard.
Like in other countries, in European countries you can ask someone how much they make, and they're not flabbergasted.
You know, here, if you were at a dinner party and said, hey, what's your name?
How are you?
How much do you make?
Like, what job does?
Like, what does your job pay?
People would be like, excuse me right, we connect so much to money um, there's so much emotion to it and oftentimes we're really just uncertain about it.
Like many people in this country, didn't really grow up having very deliberate conversations about money.
You kind of grow up, turn 18, and people expect you to just know.
It's like when you go to college and they're like what do you want to do with the rest of your life?
It's like well, my mom was just Waking me up two days ago, but now I need to know what to do with the rest of my life, in the same way with money.
When you don't grow up having very deliberate conversations and you've done the best that you could.
And it's not exactly wonderful results if you end up with debt or you know any other type of financial challenges or struggles.
You take that on as your identity.
And a lot of people don't like what they see in the mirror when they think about their financial makeup.
They're like, wow, I really messed that up.
Or I don't know what I'm doing.
Or numbers are hard.
Or I'm a creative.
This is not what I do.
But at the end of the day, It's what we all have to do.
And it's what we all have to master.
Hopefully, because if not, you know, we know what the end result of that is.
Right.
So it's just a very emotional conversation.
Absolutely.
And I was reading a book.
I can't remember which book it was.
But they said there was a study that showed that people were more willing to share the number of sexual partners they've had than they are to share their personal finance situation, which is crazy, right.
Yeah, because they think of the judgment.
Right, especially when we look at look at the student loan debt in this country.
Right.
We are what one and a half trillion in on outstanding student loan debt.
So you have all these people who are brilliant, book wise and financially, a little ignorant, a lot ignorant in a lot of ways.
It just is what it is.
And so here you are a professor, an attorney, a doctor, an accountant, a project manager, any number of things right.
Where you are so highly sought after, but then you go to get a loan.
And they're like.
You might as well be unemployed because of what you've done with your credit right.
It doesn't add up.
It doesn't add up.
And how does that make you feel?
How does that make us feel when, here we are, we've done all the things that we thought were the right things and yet financially, we're in a system that's still allows us to struggle because of just how things are set up, especially because financial literacy is not a conversation that we even start out with, not just at home, but even at school?
It should be a conversation that's not had.
So here we are brilliant in these job you know titles and then not so brilliant when it comes to very basic everyday spending habits.
Right.
It makes sense.
And it's so interesting seeing the confluence of these educational failures when it comes to the systems that we find ourselves in.
Because like you said, we're not taught how to manage money effectively throughout school.
Even in college, you have to take that kind of class on your own.
You have to go and invest in your own self-education in order to learn that.
And something I talk about all the time is the fact that when it comes to how to have difficult conversations, how to negotiate, those are specialty elective classes.
Even for me as a lawyer, that was an optional course, negotiation conversation.
Wow, really?
Yeah.
There's an assumption that attorneys are really great at negotiating.
We negotiate often, but oftentimes we can get through school without touching one of those classes.
It's not required, which is wild.
And now we put those two things together.
We're not great at having difficult conversations and we're not great at managing and understanding money.
And now we get married to somebody or we're in a long-term committed relationship with somebody and we have to talk about money and we're going to struggle.
Oh, are we?
I know I did.
I don't know about you and Whitney, but I know we did.
Joan and I did.
Here's what I've learned over the years.
And I've been married almost 13 years now.
And I remember the first four or five years.
Man, it's a blessing that we're here, brother.
It is a blessing that we're here.
We struggled in this area so much, and One of the things that I learned is to not be so defensive about how I chose to manage my money and not be so judgmental about how my husband chose to manage the money, because we're both coming from completely different backgrounds.
And one of the things that I taught people over the years is that before you can really have a conversation a fruitful and productive conversation with your partner about finances, you have to understand your own financial blueprint and you have to understand their financial blueprint.
There's no judgment.
It's just understanding.
And that basically means sitting down and really talking about.
What did you learn about money when you were growing up?
What did you actually learn about money?
So we look at this three parts.
First thing, verbal influences.
What types of things did you hear about money?
So for some of us, I grew up in church 24 seven, eight days a week.
And I would hear that scripture that was so misquoted all the time.
Money is the root of all evil.
If you hear something like that or money doesn't grow on trees, or all the you know the good Caribbean sayings that people you know would say about money, you would hear these things.
And if you're not careful, that, and you don't know to be careful, you're a kid, right?
So these things are in your subconscious that will It must be evil to be rich.
It must be evil to have a lot of money.
So you shy away from having conversations that would make you more astute with money, because you don't want to be a part of that.
You want to be a good noble God-fearing, giving person, even if it's to the point of your own detriment.
And so if someone grows up that way and they hear those things, yet another person, your significant other, has heard.
You know, hustle hard, grind hard, make all the money, you know like you only live once, and all these things that are about like just being getting all this money and consuming.
You're on two different pages.
Not because you're bad, not because you're wrong or they're wrong.
You just heard different things growing up.
Maybe you saw different things modeling.
You know, how did you see your parents or the people who raised you interacting with money?
Maybe there was an incident, a one-time thing that happened.
Maybe you walked in your home one day, flicked the light switch and nothing came on.
Maybe that was a constant thing.
Maybe evictions were a constant thing for you.
So now you've made a decision.
When I grow up, that'll never happen to me.
So you hoard and save everything.
You're not even willing to have a vacation or have fun.
But then you get with a spouse or a partner where the way their parents showed love was to do lavish vacation.
You both have a different way of just showing love and how you use money to express that. that.
One person may be a super saver because they don't want the family to ever struggle.
And the other person might be like no, we're going to live life to the fullest because you never know what's going to happen.
And that's just how they show love.
And when my husband and I got together, I was definitely on the side of money to me and love.
Money looks like stability.
If you love me, keep these lights on, keep groceries in the pantry, in the refrigerator.
I don't want any problems with my car.
I don't care about clothes.
I don't care about extra stuff.
I just want to be stable.
My husband grew up where his parents gave gifts.
And that was how they showed love.
And we had to have that conversation so we could stop being so hard on each other.
Wow.
I wish that we recorded this podcast 10 years ago when I got married.
So I could listen to it all the time.
This is really great because I'm recognizing now the disconnects that Whitney and I have had.
So some background for Whitney.
Whitney grew up single family, single mother from Akron, Ohio. at times had bouts of homelessness.
So it was a really rough experience.
Me on the other hand, immigrant family from the Caribbean, you have to work hard, get an education.
My dad was a surgeon, my mom was a professor.
And they always said, hey, just go get your degrees, get multiple degrees.
One was not sufficient for my family.
And then you're going to be in a good position.
So for me, I was very relaxed.
Because I said, okay, I mean, I went and I got three degrees.
Money's going to come.
Just be patient.
It's going to happen.
I'm never stressed about money.
Whitney, on the other hand, she is constantly stressed about money.
And mind you, she is a doctor at this point.
Okay.
And so there's constantly this disconnect, but it goes back to what you said about that blueprint.
I think that's really key because really, what it comes down to is empathizing, understanding how the other person sees, thinks and feels about the situation.
And you can empathize without agreeing.
I think that's one of the key things that people often miss.
They think it's some kind of concession.
If I say it's okay, or I understand, doesn't that condone the behavior?
Doesn't that lead them to want to continue?
But no, it doesn't.
It's the fundamental building block of effective persuasion and communication.
But I think that's where people often miss it, because they're unable, or sometimes unwilling, to empathize and understand.
Yeah.
You have to be willing to be vulnerable as well as empathize.
So you have to tell the truth.
And just because people have been in a relationship for any matter of time, you can tell someone a story, but not tell the truth about how it impacted you.
Like it'd be okay to say oh, you know, we had these challenges growing up, but oftentimes we're not even aware yet of how that 12-year-old version of us is still running the show at 32 at 42.
And the true impact of that, that now I only feel secure when I do these certain things, when I behave this way, when I make these types of decisions.
And you have to be willing to dig a little deeper, because this is not about you overdrew their account again.
What's wrong with you?
You're crazy, right?
It's like for some people.
That's the only thing they know.
Like that is the only way they've made that connection between money and possibly how they love or show affection.
And that's the only thing they know.
They're not concerned.
It's like you say, you're a little relaxed.
My husband back in the day would overdraw the recount and be like but something's coming on Friday, but tonight we're going to have a good time.
I'm like, sir, it's Tuesday.
I don't know what can happen over the next three days, right?
So we did this several times.
We just had these different conversations not all at once, because you can't do it when you're upset.
You can't do it when the account just was overdrawn.
You can't do it when someone pulled something out of savings You know what's ironic?
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The time to have these conversations are when there is peace.
When there is peace time.
It's not time to have these conversations in wartime, because then you can't get to the vulnerability and the empathy.
Because someone is going to put a wall up to protect themselves and you're never going to get to the heart of what's really going on there, right?
And in that, it can't be wartime because you know how it is.
If you say you know when my dad used to do this or my dad used to say this, it can go down with spouses.
You know, you'd be like, well, that's why your daddy, right?
Instead of embracing what your partner is saying, you start taking jabs at other family members.
And I've seen this happen.
In financial counseling and I'm like, well, we don't.
Okay, well, hold on.
We don't want to do that.
So I would suggest people have the conversation before Something blows up or if something has already blown up.
Just wait, give it a few days and say you know what.
I was listening to this podcast and I heard interesting thing.
It was, you know, they were talking about how, what did you hear about money when you grew up?
What did you hear about money?
Like in a non-threatening way so that everybody can just say their piece.
Because once it comes out, you'll understand that no, it's not you have to agree.
It's just that you have to understand that that's the why behind it and see the person's heart.
Because if you're in a relationship, I'm going to assume unless there's financial abuse going on that you're a team.
No, you're a team.
You're working towards the same goals for your family, for your life, for your legacy, for your children.
It's just that you have different ways of going about it.
And, you know, you got to get to that not his way or my way or her way.
How do we take these different personalities and create our way.
What's the new way we move forward.
Oh, this is great.
I'm taking so many notes just for myself.
This is really great.
And I like the idea of the importance of vulnerability.
That's critical, especially in a romantic relationship. especially with an issue like this.
And what I'm recognizing too is that a lot of times we might not be as vulnerable with ourselves before the conversation.
So we don't have a good enough understanding of where we sit, And then we just have this emotional response.
And then we engage in a conversation right there without fully understanding what caused us to feel the way that we're feeling right now.
And so the other person doesn't even have an opportunity to solve the problem, because you yourself don't have an idea of what the problem really is within yourself.
And then I really like the idea of waiting for a peaceful time to have these conversations, because it puts you in a good mindset.
They're in a good mindset.
You're not dealing with that amygdala hijack so people can actually think clearly.
And I think about it in terms of pre-negotiation.
Before this conflict happens, What are we going to do?
What's the game plan going forward?
And people are more willing to make agreements there.
And so then, when the actual situation occurs, then you can say hey, you remember, back then we already talked about this.
We know what happens next, right?
That is exactly it.
That is exactly it.
So it gets you to that point where-
You understand his way.
You don't agree, but you understand right you understand her way.
And now you can talk about Our way because no one's way is 1000% correct.
You have to figure out what's the best way for your family to move forward.
And in our house.
You know, once I understood that that was just how my husband knew to show love.
How could I stop him from showing his family love in that way?
How do you cut that whole part of someone off if that's their love language, right?
He has to be able to express love in his way.
And he knows what mine is, you know, and he knows what my expectations are and what I would like.
So we started to do a couple things.
Our way became that we could spend a certain amount of money up to a point without having to talk about it, so that he could still feel free to do what he wanted to do within reason, right.
That made sense for the family.
So not, oh, I went on a shopping spree for you.
Well, I don't like clothes.
So I'm not that concerned about stuff like that.
Before we had these conversations, he would go out and buy three pairs of shoes different colors.
Same shoe, different colors.
That was his thing.
He liked to make a big splash in a presentation.
You know, after when we got to that point where you can just spend a certain number, a certain amount of money let's call it 500 without having a conversation and making sure everybody's good with that.
He would start to do stuff.
It made him like start looking for deals, which he never did back in the day.
He would look for stuff and coupons, rewards, whatever.
And so he could still have that high that he would get from doing that.
But it was done more responsibly, which I would appreciate.
So he would get something and he would go, and I saved 30%.
And I'm like, you go, boy.
You know, like...
So now it becomes, it's still to this day.
I mean, that was about 10 years ago.
And to this day it's still a little game where if he says like you know, he gives something he'll be like and I saved money.
It's always that little extra thing, because then that's when I can like high five and really enjoy it.
I've learned to enjoy it more as the years have gone on.
But it was more so about just understanding like wow, when he makes these decisions, they're not because he doesn't care about the family.
And that's the thing with money.
Sometimes, when we judge the way other people interact with money, we think that it's you don't care, you don't care.
Like, look at you sleeping.
We're broke.
What are you doing?
Taking a nap, right?
What are you doing?
Laying down.
Or why aren't you out there doing more things?
Especially, again, I'm Caribbean, so I come from a background where people have a million jobs.
I hate, you know, to be stereotypical, but it's true.
I was used to, you know, folks doing work sunup to sundown.
So I remember back in the day, you know, especially when we were struggling with our finances.
You know I lost everything in the recession and we had to rebuild.
I'm like, you taking a nap?
Like, you don't, we don't, we don't have nap time in the day.
My baby can take a nap.
You, sir, cannot take a nap.
But that was how he, you know, refreshed his mindset to get back out there.
It just had to be a constant conversation.
But once I learned to stop being so judgy and I gave him the dignity of his own process.
So much has changed over the years, not because I kept nagging, but because what we did agree upon as our way.
We both agreed and we both stuck to.
But then in my way for other things like how I manage my business finances.
We have we both entrepreneurs and we have two separate businesses.
Once he saw the progress that I was making in my business.
I didn't have to nag him about what he was doing.
Right.
He would say, babe, why are you doing that that way.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
So, you know, tax time comes Like Why do I have to pay more than you do?
He's like, oh, that's what you're doing.
Okay.
Right.
So I gave him the dignity of his own process, meaning just trusted that if I continue to be an example and just had empathy for how he moved throughout his financial life without judgment, he could come over.
If he desired to, in his own time, in his own way, and therefore stick to it, versus trying to force him to be like me, which I've learned a lot from him too.
So being like me ain't 1000% bulletproof.
Right.
But We've given each other the dignity of our own process, where we don't try to force either to be like me, you know we have a chance to go out and try test tweak fail, get up, do things again, without the judgment.
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
And two things that I took from that that I thought were really, really great.
First of all, the mindset that you brought into these conversations.
In my book, I talk about the benefit of the benefit of the doubt.
We're going to assume the best of intentions here, because if you go in and you're assuming this person is just trying to destroy me, it's going to change the way that we interact in the conversation and it's going to invite negative responses.
So just that adoption of that mentality put you in a better position for success during the conversation.
And then the thing that you said that I thought was absolutely brilliant the dignity of his own process.
You outlined some parameters and said, these are the challenges that we're facing.
And he respected that, but you allowed him to figure out the way to do it himself.
And that's autonomy.
Everybody wants to feel like they have control over their own destiny.
Now you can say hey, these are some things to consider, but I'm going to leave it up to your creativity to find a way to do it yourself.
Because if you try to do it the other way and you try to force them and you belittle them and say no, you can't do that.
That's wrong.
That's wrong.
Even if the person recognizes, huh, you know what, they might be wrong.
I might be wrong here.
They're going to rebel just for the sake of rebelling.
It's like, I am an adult, right?
Yeah.
Nothing good ever comes from nagging.
It just doesn't.
And I know, especially as a woman, I'll speak for the ladies.
We love to...
Especially when we first learn something new.
When we hear something new, we're like, oh, I'm doing this thing.
It doesn't matter if it's about money or health or any number of things.
We want to tell everyone and we expect them to change two minutes after we shared it with them.
And the thing that I see a lot with women, in particular in my space, especially when they listen to my podcast or read my books or something I've been telling my husband every day.
I'm like well, your husband DM me too and asked me to stop.
Thanks a lot.
I can't tell you how many emails or DMs I've gotten from men over the years who are like look, my wife likes your stuff.
And she's been trying to get me to do this or that.
It doesn't make sense for me.
It's one of the reasons I ended up writing a book for men.
Because-
It was real money answers for women first.
And the women kept nagging the men in their lives about the book.
And I kept getting emails or direct messages from men.
And they're like, you don't understand.
That's not how it works.
So I had a focus group of 100 men help me reshape the book and do it for men, because of that very thing.
But I would tell the women, okay, we have to find a way to work together.
We cannot nag people to death and then expect for them to just do it because we said so.
How about you be an example?
How about you focus on doing those things that you now believe deep down in your soul and allow them to see the results?
People will ask questions and get behind the results that they see.
They will not get behind you just talking and nagging.
It doesn't work that way.
Not even our children.
You know, as a mother of a 13 year old, I could tell my daughter things till I'm blue in the face.
At the end of the day, she's going to make the decision that she wants to make.
And if I don't give her autonomy, as you talked about, she'll rebel just for the sake of doing it, even if she actually agrees.
Right, and so if i can't force you can't force a 13 year old you can force kai to get out of your office the first time.
We recorded right, he's what?
Five Yeah, four.
He's four, right?
If we can't force them, you definitely cannot force an adult to do anything.
But what you can do is be the best example you can possibly be.
And that will be the magnet that draws them in and makes them go, okay, honey, I see.
I see what you were saying.
I can get behind that.
Yeah, no, these are really great points.
And now, one of the things that we need to adopt is a more of a patient mentality when it comes to these conversations.
Like you said, it's not going to happen immediately.
And so for those people out there who are scribbling notes frantically like me, um How long can this process take?
What is a reasonable expectation?
I think it depends on where everyone starts, you know, because some people are going to have this conversation that initial.
How did you go up around money?
What's your financial blueprint type of conversation?
And they may find that they're not that far off.
There are just a few tweaks and a few adjustments where they could get on the same page and, you know, get to that place a little sooner.
Some of us are going to like me.
I had to bring this conversation up in different ways many times over, at least two years.
Personally,
It took some time.
My husband just could not get it.
He couldn't get what I was saying.
And I really couldn't get some of what he was saying.
And it took time.
It took a lot of these conversations, mostly during peacetime.
A few during war times, but mostly during peacetime to finally get there and not everything changes overnight.
There were small things, you know, at that time.
It was getting on the same page about a budget.
It was getting on the same page about not spending over a certain dollar amount.
Like I said, without talking to each other.
It was deciding how we were going to purchase things for our daughter because my husband, the gift giver, he wanted to shower her with gifts every birthday Christmas.
I mean, Mother's Day, he wants to give her a gift too for making me a mother.
I'm like, sir, absolutely not.
You're giving gifts out like candy.
No, right?
And so it took time.
And I think that patience is going to be your greatest friend.
You have to be patient with the process.
Because when we want to change back to the people who may be more financially astute.
However you got there, you probably were on a journey too.
It's just that no one was micromanaging you.
So you were able to make mistakes.
You were able to straddle the fence.
You were able to set a financial goal and then not meet it.
You were able to say you know, I'm going to set up this automatic savings transfer from my paycheck and then take it out after it hit and go spend it frivolously.
You were able to do a lot of things, possibly with no one watching you.
And so now that you're in a relationship and you would like for your spouse to be better with finances, you can't keep the hawk eye on them the entire time, because no one was doing that to you.
And that's what we have to remember.
And that's what I had to remember.
It took me years to become America's money maven.
That's not what my husband signed up for.
Right?
Like, that's not what he signed up for.
That wasn't his gifting.
That wasn't his genius.
That wasn't his zone of interest at all.
So once he started to even show interest, it wouldn't be fair to be like hey, we talked about that on Sunday.
It's Thursday.
So they need you to pull it together.
That's not fair.
And we can't do that.
That goes back to giving people the dignity of their own process, because most things that really stick for me at least I had to fall.
I had to fail a couple times.
I had to have a little breakdown in order to have a breakthrough.
And I think many of us are like that.
So giving people the space to even fail And realize that the conversation that you maybe had some weeks ago, some months ago, some years ago, is why you were having that conversation.
And once they have an experience of their own that they can connect to, they'll get it.
We have to give them a chance to get there.
That makes sense.
And for those people who are listening and they say you know what?
I have a difficult conversation that I need to have soon.
It's peacetime.
Let's do it now.
What are some of those things that people often forget to discuss?
Hmm.
Well, first of all, before you're even in a relationship, I find in particular and again, I'm not picking on women, but I mostly work with women
So I find that women would think that having a conversation about money stops at how much do you make?
That ain't enough.
Yeah. because someone can make $90,000 a year and spend 98,000 and you know, be completely broke.
So, um, asking how much someone makes is definitely not enough.
Getting to the root of, again, how did you grow up or what types of things did you hear?
Even now, really asking people, again, beforehand about their debt.
If you're getting into a serious relationship, I think you need to know about the debt that your significant other is carrying.
Because when you marry, that's going to become your debt.
And the last thing that you want to do is judge every decision they make.
Oh, oh, really?
You're having tacos because it's Tuesday.
You have 100,000 in student loans, sir.
You need to eat cereal at home, right?
But you don't want to turn into that person.
So you should just know what you're getting into.
I was listening to this episode of the Dave Ramsey show where this man was talking about he and his fiancee.
He was going to be an orthodontist.
He had just become an orthodontist.
$1 million in student loans.
$1 million in student loans.
And he had just gotten engaged.
And he was like planning for a wedding and like all this stuff.
And I just remember... the people in the comments just let them have it.
They're like, first of all, who's marrying you with a million dollars in student loan debt?
And I just like, well, at least the woman must know.
But it's one of those are questions that you have to ask.
Are you going to be prepared to work with someone In order to get out of that type of debt?
Because the conversations, the beefing, the head butting is usually about debt.
It's usually about debt repayment.
And a lot of times it's about like, overdrafts and overspending and monitoring what people are spending on.
And I think you need to have an addition to what's coming in, what's going out.
You have to have some conversations about values and in future.
Because if people won't stop overspending because they are so caught up about appearances or the validation that may come with buying certain things or living in a certain area or driving a certain car,
If you can't get on the same page about that, hopefully if you have a reasonable partner you will get on the same page about your future, that this can't go on forever.
I can let you be great in the year of 2020, but what are we going to do 2025, 2030, 2035?
Are our kids going to school debt free?
Are we going to let them come out of school with student loans like we did?
And once you start connecting to bigger whys that are future whys, Especially when you can add a visual to it, people start to shift, especially with children.
I see, more than anything, not wanting your children to experience what you did is usually a great motivating factor.
Yeah, no, this is great.
And as you know, Patrice, I could talk to you forever.
This has been fantastic.
But before you go, what is one challenge that you would give to the audience that can help them in this conversation?
If there's one thing that you want them to take away from this, what is it?
The one thing would be to start with yourself.
Yes, it's a difficult conversation that you want to have with a significant other, but you have to have some really difficult conversations with you, first about are you being the example?
Are you showcasing the very ways of being that you want to force upon them?
Or you just want to point the finger.
Right.
And are you clear about how you grew up?
Because perhaps you have a false ideal of what they're actually doing, because you're only looking at it through your lens, through the lens of your upbringing.
As opposed to perhaps, you know, there.
So looking at yourself and making sure that you are being the example, before you try to force someone to do something that you're not even doing.
You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next.
A fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge so you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in.
Elizabeth, thanks for joining us today.
Ami, thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited.
Yes, me too.
Me too.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yes.
So I am, I wear many hats.
I like to tell people I'm a financial advisor, a wealth manager and also a money coach or money therapist.
I have a degree in economics and psychology and my passion is really bringing these fields together in terms of how can we do financial planning, wealth management, but deeply rooted in our psychology and behavioral finance?
I love this.
And now for folks who might not be familiar with behavioral economics or understanding the nexus between finance and money and psychology, why do you think it's so important for us to understand both of those elements together?
Yeah, i know it's a great question and it's a really important one because behavioral finance is gaining a lot more traction in the financial planning field, partly because we understand that you know variables and math and formulas and how we kind of analyze the stock market might be rational, but humans are not right.
Our reaction to news, to events, to our feelings, to our personal lives, to external lives, That doesn't necessarily equate to rational behavior.
And so we really need to know what is underlying our emotions, our psychology, our relationship to money, because it will impact our financial strategy.
This is perfect.
And I agree wholeheartedly.
And I also know that people learn really well through stories, Elizabeth.
So I want you to regale us with a story, perhaps somebody you know in your life.
Oh my gosh, I will start with my, well, I'll say a couple things, right?
It's like I.
I love what I get to do because I get to talk about money every day of my life with people.
And that's really important.
We do not talk enough about money, right?
And the more we talk about it, the less it becomes a cultural taboo.
And so I'll share.
I'll be vulnerable and share a little bit about my personal story, because I think that's what can get the juices going in terms of how can we talk more about money in your own life, with your partners, with your families, with your colleagues, etc.
And recently I wrote a book that allows us to At different entry points.
We don't have to talk about numbers.
When it comes to money, we can talk about our story.
So let me go back to that question, a story.
So let's go back 20 years in time, right?
I was finishing my degree in psychology.
I had my degree already, my undergrad in economics, and I met my partner, who is now my husband.
And I remember we started dating Kwame and I'm a planner, right?
I do this for a living.
I love spreadsheets.
I map out my budget.
I know what's coming in.
I know what's going out.
And we started dating and he just appeared to be this happy-go-lucky.
You know, I'm like oh, does he make a lot of money, right?
Like that's kind of attractive.
Can he, you know, pay for our dates, et cetera?
And we started dating.
So I noticed two things.
First thing I realized, wow, he actually has a lot of credit card debt.
How do I feel about that?
Right.
And so I had to kind of come to terms that he was not as financially organized as I was.
So start to appear the different money personalities.
And then we started dating.
We moved in together and we started going out to dinner with our friends.
And my husband would be the one.
Actually, he wasn't my husband.
Then we were dating.
We had to get through this before we actually were able to get married.
And he started picking up the bills because he is an overly generous human being which, on one hand, we can say amazing right.
He is kind.
He is generous.
He is the life of the party.
People want to be in a room with him.
But when he would do that, Kwame, my heart would drop.
My temperature would go cold.
I'd be like, oh my goodness, this does not fit in our monthly plan.
And I remember that was a moment kind of like that come to Jesus moment where, like can I marry my financial opposite?
And I bet I am not the only person who has that question, right?
Opposites attract.
And a lot of times we're attracted to people who have different behaviors that potentially can compliment ours.
So fast forward 20 years.
I have gone into this work around behavioral finance and money management and wealth management, partly because I had to figure it out myself.
We did a ton of work, which I share with my clients, where we had to figure out what were our wisdom and shadows.
What did we bring to the table as a strength when it came to our relationship to money?
What was a place that we potentially had a shadow we weren't looking at?
It was a weakness that we had to own and take responsibility for.
And so when I started to do that, I realized my husband was there to teach me generosity.
And I needed to learn that because I came more from a family where we kept everything.
We were more hoarders.
We liked to keep our money in our bank account and savings, sometimes at the expense of enjoying life and sharing with those close.
Whereas he came from a family which...
You know, a lot of times they didn't have they didn't know where the next paycheck was coming from.
So he was taught to live in the moment.
Right.
If you get one hundred dollars to buy a steak, you buy the steak and you share it with those in your life.
Right.
So very different upbringings.
And I got to teach him how to create a plan, how to get out of debt and how to not only satisfy our present money self but as well as our future money self and take care of our past money self.
I say those three things intentionally because that's what causes a lot of chaos and conflict and confusion in our relationship to money.
We have these different parts of us that all need attention.
And, given our personalities, one of them may dominate over another at the expense of creating a solid financial plan for all parts of you.
So I am happy to announce we've been married now for, or we've been together for 20 years.
We've gotten through our financial challenges and he today is my money best friend.
Unbelievable.
That's such a great story.
Well, thank you for the vulnerability.
I appreciate this.
And there's so much that we can take from this.
Because first of all, we can realize that there is hope.
We can work through these things.
Because I know that there are people who are afraid of an impending conversation or can think about avoiding some of the conversations that needed to happen because they didn't think that there was a way through.
There wasn't a way to do it in a respectful, loving type of way.
And you're right.
The more that we have these conversations about money, the more we will gain in the skills and resilience necessary to have these conversations about money.
And we start to normalize it so we can have better relationships.
And one thing I want to hone in on here I'm recognizing that there was a fair amount of self exploration that had to happen.
Because you said, how do I feel about that?
It's not just about the behavior.
It's about the impact that it had on you emotionally.
And then recognizing that it's not necessarily that somebody is right or wrong.
It's just that we're different and we need to work together to reconcile these differences.
So I want to start with that internal negotiation that you had to have with yourself in order to understand what you are feeling and why, and then what to do with it.
So let's walk the listeners through how that goes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I mean, such a great observation.
And I would say three things.
If there's three things I want listeners to take away from is one.
No one, no couple or partner has walked into my office having the same relationship to money.
And so what I want to tell listeners is like you have a unique relationship to money.
Get to know it, own it, explore it.
And that relationship to money that you have does not need to look like that that was inherited to you, passed on to you, etc.
You get to redesign it, but you have to know it.
And I like to tell people as well, no one should stand between you and your relationship to money.
No CPA, financial advisor, and investment manager.
It's like saying you know, I have this joke where it's like you don't want your therapist living with you, right?
That would kind of suck, but think of it.
And so you don't, you need to have a direct relationship to one.
And I'm going to give you a practical tool on how to do that.
Number two, your partner's not out to try to like, piss you off or irritate you.
That's not the intention.
We are just different.
And three, when you take the time to really dig deep and understand.
Okay, who am I in my relationship to money?
What works?
What are my triggers?
What are my feelings?
What am i doing?
Well, what?
Where's my money leaks?
What am i holding on too tight to?
What does money want to tell me about me?
Right, that's a fun one, and i hope we get to talk about that tool, because it's a really important one when we sit down and have a conversation with money and we let our And by partner I mean like your spouse, your wife, your husband, whoever it is.
When you let them in to witness your direct conversation with money, something magical happens Kwame, because we start to shift the blame.
We don't scapegoat money anymore, and we don't blame our partner for what's not working anymore.
And then we're given a clear path to take responsibility for our part on how we're creating this.
This is so good.
And let's go on this rhyming tour real quick.
Because you talked about blame, I think that reminds me of shame as well.
And I think there's a lot of both.
That goes into these conversations, and the feeling of shame holds us back from engaging with other people.
And then when we blame somebody else, then it makes them feel shame, and now we have two people who are avoiding the thing that needs to happen, which is a conversation.
And so it's easy to say, let's stop blaming, let's stop feeling shame or shaming other people.
But as it relates to money, it's so intimate.
It makes you feel so vulnerable and exposed.
How do we get to that point where we can overcome blame and shame?
So I think the first piece is really just owning that emotion.
Like I'll give you another personal example.
You know, I've been doing this for 20 years and I still get triggered at times.
And I still get triggered by my husband, who can tend to have more financial mistakes Potentially other people in my life like he'll forget a suitcase and we have to ship it back or he'll burn the pot because oops.
Right.
And there's I'm like, wait, all of that costs money.
And I've had to deal with my own experience of waste.
Right.
And being like, OK, can we also just be human and be imperfect?
And so one of the workarounds that actually my daughter suggested because she's like, Mom, she's 14.
She's like, wow, mom, we're human.
We make mistakes, right?
When I was growing up, we said, wait, what was it?
Practice makes perfect.
And she's been taught, no, mom, practice makes better.
Right.
Very different generation.
And she's like, how about, Mom, we add a mistakes budget to our spreadsheet?
And I was like, whoa.
She's like, yeah, let's just assume we're going to make mistakes.
We'll take turns who makes a mistake.
And that's OK.
We add it to our spending plan.
Maybe we take from this to add there.
And it was revolutionary.
It's such a simple thing.
Because I lost my AirPods last month, right?
We had an office move and I have no idea where they went.
And she's like, mom, you get to use the mistake budget this week.
I'm like, you're entirely right.
Instead of blaming or feeling shame, right there we can start to have a different relationship to money, where we just use resources to also underline the fact that we're human.
But I had to go through the cycle of emotions.
I had to share it with my family and not hold it in.
But in a way that wasn't attacking them, but owning it like I am angry right now.
Right.
And we don't say that enough.
We can be angry.
We can be angry with money. but we can't scapegoat it.
Oh, this is so powerful because when we think about our approach that we have for difficult conversations, it's compassionate curiosity.
So it's a framework that you use for internal and external negotiations.
The same three steps.
Acknowledge and validate emotions is step one.
Get curious with compassion and then use joint problem solving is step Three.
And so, as we go through this, what you did is you labeled the emotion, because a lot of times, what happens is we feel something and then we feel bad for feeling that way.
So we try to bottle it up, which makes the emotion just leak out at very inopportune times within the wrong situation.
So the way to take control and manage your emotions is by accepting that you have them, listing them down and understanding where they come from.
And then you can actually do something about it.
Right.
And one of the things that you talked about is not scapegoating money.
I don't want people don't want to assume that the listener understands what that means.
So when you think about scapegoating money, what does that really mean?
That means that you're putting, instead of owning and acknowledging your emotions, you're putting it on something else, an external object right.
And it makes it easier to put on the external object, because that means that you don't have to work through your emotions.
So let me give you another example, a client example.
I had a client walk in.
She was an employee at PayPal and she was so angry at the stock market.
And I'm like, I'm kind of smiling inside.
I'm like, wow. that's something big to be angry about.
Every day it's going to go either up or down, right?
Like I'm, like we are on fast track to suffering if you're so angry at the fluctuations in the stock market.
And we started doing a deeper dive and we realized that She had lost her father at a young age.
Right.
So she was kind of like, you know, 10 years old.
Her father had a heart attack.
And what was literally on his office on a desk was an unsigned life insurance policy.
So her family did not receive the resources they needed to make do in a really tragic event.
Her mom became a single mother, mother of three, really had to struggle.
So not only did she lose her dad, she basically lost her mom, because she had to go figure out how to take care of three young children.
So fast forward, I mean, I still get chills telling her story.
She was so angry at money.
She felt abandoned by money.
In reality, she was grieving the loss of her dad and she was grieving the loss of her mother.
Right.
And she by by scapegoating the fact that money was so fickle that's where she was putting all her emotions.
In a lot of our work, you know.
I have to also distinguish when someone needs more of a therapeutic container.
I put them in that direction, but I can help be like, hey, let's talk about this.
Underlying your anger to money is this deep, deep grief.
And it's going to serve you a lot more if you go and touch it versus continuing to spout anger.
All these phrases right to the stock market, because that will only go up and down.
And it's it's it's keeping you in a cycle of suffering instead of feeling your pain.
It's a powerful example.
And really what you helped her to do is reclaim her power, because she was giving away her power to something that is unfeeling, uncaring and is indifferent to your suffering.
But by getting a better understanding of why she felt the way that she felt, now you can actually help her to get on the path to better.
To figuring out what would make her feel better and then what she could actually do, which would bring her more clarity when it comes to decision making as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So can we can we turn towards the conversation with money tools?
Yes, I would love to.
Let's do it.
You can do that with money before you go into a negotiation conversation, right?
And so what this means is that like money can be a guide and a mirror to you, right?
And I know a lot of people are like, well, what do you mean by that, Elizabeth?
And in reality, if we sit down and we take the time to get crystal clear about what our conversation right.
I'm not saying monologue.
I'm not saying what you want to just like get off your chest money.
Your conversation with money is, you will gain so much insight to what are the feelings and emotions you need to recognize today and take ownership on before you're going in to talk about money.
Because the reality is when money enters the room, if you're negotiating salary right, a compensation package when money enters the room, the energy in that room changes.
Right, because it feels very charged.
So if you're clear on what the charge around money is for you, the better you will walk into a money conversation.
So let me back it up for a second.
One of the easiest tools that I give clients that you can literally do in 10 minutes in your journal is to sit down and have a conversation with money.
And what that means.
It is a gestalt chair exercise or an empty chair exercise, where you first pick a money object
So it can be your wallet, a credit card.
You know my younger generation picks up their phone and shows me an app.
Whatever represents money to you, you put it in the chair in front of you.
You decide the right distance, kwame.
Some people will pull it really close.
I'm like oh, you are wanting an intimate relationship with money.
Some people will push the chair away.
I'm like you need a little more distance, like just kind of track that right distance.
And then you each get two turns.
You put a timer on your phone for three minutes And you get to go first for the first three minutes.
The invitation
It's almost like you heard a knock on the door.
You're in therapy with money.
You get to tell money what you feel.
Don't tell your story.
Say what you feel, that acknowledgement piece.
And some people Kwame, will walk in and be like God damn money.
Where have you been my whole life?
Or money, so good to see you.
Tell me all your secrets, right?
Or money.
I don't even know what to say.
I'm drawing a blank.
You're totally overwhelming.
Like, what's the emotion that you have?
Or like you, you, my dad used you right.
And I never got his love.
And so you start to really feel what is the emotion that you've always wanted to say to money.
Or secretly, I want so much of you.
I just I just don't know how to get more of you.
And so you start to see it almost becomes like the secret that we've been carrying inside of what I've always wanted to say to money.
Then, when the timer goes off, stop and trust that you have said everything you needed in that first round.
Change chairs.
Now it's money talking back to you, right?
This is when people start to feel resistance.
But if you just try it, you will be totally amazed at what potentially can come out of your mouth, as if you were money talking back to you.
If that's too much of a stretch, you can have this conversation between the part of you that pays bills and pays taxes, right?
All of us have like that financial person in our lives and a part of ourselves, with the part of you that potentially is a little bit less responsible with money, right.
Or has a different experience with it.
Have this conversation.
Let money respond.
It gets its three minutes.
Then you get to do that one more time.
And then you get to take a step back and be like, let me not problem solve yet.
I know that's an important step three, but let me for a moment just realize what was the emotion there.
Was it anger?
Was it avoidance?
Was it hoarding and grasping?
Was it anxiety?
Was it overwhelm?
Was it gratitude?
What was the emotion in that conversation?
And that will give you so much insight to how you walk into a money conversation.
What is that energetic charge that you bring that potentially you haven't had awareness of, so that you can start to be like hmm, is that the energetic charge?
I want to walk into my negotiating conversation with.
And if it's like, yeah, hell yeah, me and money are tight.
Well, then go for it.
And next time you sit down and have a conversation with money say hey money, this is what we're doing tomorrow.
We're going to sit down and negotiate X, Y and Z together.
And what insight do you have for me?
What angle am I not considering?
Use it as a guide and a friend.
If you don't like the energetic charge, be like, okay, money, guess what?
I have an important conversation tomorrow and I'm feeling really angry at you.
Let's figure this out so that when I go into the conversation, it is not so charged.
This is so cool.
So what I'm recognizing is that one of the biggest reasons why our conversations with other people about money fail is because we haven't first had the conversation with ourself and we haven't had the conversation with money itself.
Because we're essentially going into these conversations filled with emotions that we are unwilling to acknowledge and bringing all of that pent up energy into the conversation.
And then it leads us to say and do things where the person doesn't even have a clear opportunity to address the real core issue.
And so the best thing we can do is first just take some time to get our own understanding of ourselves, our own understanding of our relationship with money, because that will bring us the clarity we need to communicate with confidence about money.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Because one of the biggest things in negotiations like oh, I mean, I know, for women I work with a lot of women is like I don't know how to ask for my worth.
Right.
Right.
I feel lack of confidence going in and talking about money.
So again, have the conversation with money first.
Where are you feeling unworthy, right?
Where did that belief come from?
Likely it didn't have anything to do with money.
So why is it being transposed on your conversation with money and your relationship to money?
Because you're walking in the room with that.
It is electromagnetic induction, right?
You are walking in charged and that is altering the field.
So if you want to have the best energetic field when you go into negotiation, right clear the field first.
Hmm.
So good.
It's so fascinating and also extremely unique, Elizabeth.
I know you know this, but for us, we've been on the podcast for nine years, which makes us prehistoric, and podcasts.
And this is one of the most unique perspectives I've ever heard, especially as it relates to money.
Because again, like I said, we're starting in the wrong place.
And now that we have this type of clarity, How do we start the conversation with the other person?
How does this new approach, this homework that we've done leading into the conversation, how does it change the way that we navigate and engage with the conversation?
Yeah.
And I feel like your question is guiding me back to how we started, right?
Like how do we have this conversation around money more with our partners, with our family, with our kids?
And so a lot of times when I'm working with clients, I will do a conversation with money with each of them and they get to witness.
And it's really important when you get to witness the other person, because A the energy isn't coming at you.
They're not blaming you.
They're dealing through their own emotion with money.
And you get to see and I can't tell you nine out of ten times what comes is a lot of empathy and compassion.
Like, oh, that's what's at the core of their discomfort.
I get that now.
OK, I'm going to lean in and help him or her or they, because that's what they're dealing with and that's where it's coming from, and vice versa.
Right.
You're like, oh, I get it.
When I do this, it triggers you because it's touching that core wound.
Right.
So we get to really be each other's best friends because we know what's happening.
Um, you know, it's like, um, coming back to the conversation with my husband, right?
He, uh, he came from a family that moved around a ton.
And so for him trying to create a plan was like, why are we going to do a plan?
We're just going to pack up and move.
Right.
And I'm like, and I came from a family that I've only had two childhood homes.
Like, no, we, We stay.
Right.
And so, once we started to realize the way we were raised around money, our financial DNA was impacting our relationship to money.
I can look at him and be like, OK, I can hold his behaviors in relationship to his story.
He's not trying to piss me off.
Right.
And vice versa.
Then I can use that.
We can help each other and become each other's sounding boards.
I can be like, hey, babe, I had this really important money conversation.
Last year, Kwame, I went through a whole process of raising fees on all my client accounts.
I had to really get clear on why I was doing that, what my conversation with money was, so that I could clearly communicate that to my clients.
I'm happy to say I did not lose one.
Right.
Because I was able to really delineate what was the value I was bringing to the table and why I needed to adjust my fees to be able to deliver more.
And so we can ask for more money.
Money wants to be part of your life.
Oh my gosh, can I say it again?
Money wants to be part of your life.
It is a freaking creative tool.
It is a technology right, humans.
We can use it for good or for bad.
Right we there.
And there is this feeling sometimes that there is harm that's caused with money.
I agree with that, but money is a technology that wants to be part of your life and if you're listening to this podcast and you are committed to making this world a better place, by all means call it in, because i want you to have more money to work with Man.
This is so good.
And I think, especially with the intimate relationships that we have just recognizing it's not about me is so powerful because money is so personal that when somebody has a money story or beliefs that are different from yours and then it comes into conflict, it feels personal.
It feels like an attack and it feels very unsafe.
You feel unseen.
But now being able to see the vulnerable conversation that your partner is having with money, then you say oh, this isn't about me at all.
I just happen to be present in these conversations, but it's not about me.
And it's not.
So it helps me to not take it as personally.
And then also going to the story about you raising your fees.
This is powerful because this is something that everybody struggles with from one time or another, when it comes to feeling as though you are enough or worthy.
And I know you literally wrote the book on the feeling of enough.
Right.
And having that conversation with money to put you in a position of confidence and self-understanding before you advocate for yourself, whether it's a salary, whether it's a promotion or trying to land a client or keep a client.
I think that could give people a really firm foundation for the conversation.
So let's walk through that, because we've been focusing a lot on the intimate conversations we've been having, maybe with our partner or family.
But when we're having the conversation with ourselves, to feel like we're worthy of more.
What does that look like?
Yeah.
And so again, I know that I really started with the internal exploration of it, of getting clear of like okay, first of all, what feels off right?
Where's my boundary being progressed in terms of like what I'm offering to my clients, the level of high quality service and what I'm being paid?
What feels off right?
And so a lot of times that boundary gives us a red flag of something isn't in alignment.
So that was step number one, realizing like I was starting to feel resentful, and that is never a good thing when it comes to client services, right?
And so I'm like, okay, but that has nothing to do with my clients.
That's on me.
I'm creating a lack of boundaries and a lack of consistency in my fees.
Step number two was to do an audit on all my fees.
Right.
Which ones were kind of like, which ones were actually following a structure that was consistent amongst all my clients, and which ones that I feel like last minute I gave a discount because I thought that was the only way I was going to keep the client.
Like, you know what?
I'm at a place in my career where I need consistency and steadiness.
And if I lose a client, that is OK.
And then number three, which was the hardest piece, and I actually invoked my therapist for this.
I love therapy.
And I was like, let's sit through and help me talk through all the ways that I bring value to my clients, even outside of financial management.
And she was really helpful because she's like, Elizabeth, you think about your clients all the time.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I read a book.
I'm like, oh, this person would really benefit from this book.
Let me send it to them.
Oh, this person would really benefit from this referral source.
Let me send it to them.
I'm a connector.
So, in addition to doing a lot of the financial planning and strategies, I'm also bringing wealth to a lot of areas of their life.
That is not just financial stability.
Wealth of connection, participation, understanding, right?
Like that is my job.
Because that's the other piece that we haven't had a chance to talk about Kwame.
But money and wealth are not the same thing.
Oh, we are not going to just leave that hanging.
Yes, break it down.
Yes.
So money is a tool.
And I've said that before, right?
Money is a tool that we use to express value as a store of value, as an exchange, etc.
It is a technology and a tool.
Wealth is a state of being that is connected to well-being.
That's really important to know, right?
Money is can help create wealth in the different areas.
But wealth is connected to well-being.
That has a lot more to do with understanding our human needs and how we satisfy them.
So a lot of us are familiar with human needs from the Maslow approach.
Right.
The funny what people don't know, Kwame, is that he never created a hierarchy.
Right.
That was more in the 1960s.
A management firm thought oh, let's create this into hierarchy, much like we can help people scale the corporate ladder.
He did not do that.
So a lot of my work is bringing Maslow's needs and the other economists from Chile Manfred Maxnieff, who did a lot of work on satisfiers and say let's even the playing field.
Let's let's work under our working assumption is that we all have the same human needs.
Human needs are universal.
How we satisfy them is unique and personal.
And that is the key difference.
Right.
And so let's talk about those 12 human needs.
Right.
If I were to just name them for you, it's the need of financial stability.
That's where people get stuck because they think that's what wealth is.
But that's one of the 12 financial stability, safety, physical health.
Freedom, purpose, understanding, participation, belonging, connection, curiosity, leisure, touch.
Those are the 12 human needs we all have.
But how we satisfy those needs and how fulfilled we feel in those needs is unique to each of us.
So what I do with my clients right in writing this book help me see this is that yes, I create a lot of strategies to make sure we have goals and clear strategies and financial stability.
But then my work is only half done.
My work as a wealth manager is to help clients look outside of the financial stability and ask them.
How satisfied are you in your physical health, in your sense of purpose, in your sense of belonging, in your sense of connection, in leisure right?
Helping them understand how satisfied they are.
And then the second piece, which is equally important, is helping them identify.
Do you have strategies and all of these different needs that are monetary and non-monetary?
If we just use money to satisfy our needs, we are creating dependency on money.
And I tell people you can be wealthier today without adding $1 to your bank account.
Oh, my gosh.
I'm on my second page of notes, Elizabeth.
I can't. keep up.
This is so fascinating.
So not only did we learn today that we were starting the conversation at the wrong place, we should be first having the conversation with ourselves, and then having the conversation with money, and then having the conversation with the other person.
Also, we recognize now that these conversations are very limited, simply because we don't understand the difference between money, and wealth, among other things too.
Because, recognizing the distinction that you just laid out, It makes me realize that a lot of times we are limiting ourselves in these conversations by only talking about money, because when we're thinking about wealth, it encapsulates so much more of what's very important to us.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, 100%.
Right.
And so when you go into negotiating, is it do you just want a higher salary?
Or do you want more PTO time?
Right?
Do you want there to be resources that send you towards education things that you want to do?
Like look at your wealth model or your wealth map and be like what would happen actually make me feel wealthier?
Because the reality is kwamis, that we start to make more and we feel like we're in this endless pursuit of chasing more money.
We don't necessarily feel happier, You're right.
And then it's very disempowering if you end up getting exactly what it is that you're looking for, which is more money.
And then not only does it not make you feel wealthier, it might not make you feel happier.
And sometimes, depending on how you go about getting the money, it might actually make you feel worse.
Right.
And then our productivity goes down.
Right.
And we're like less inspired to do what we want to do.
And so so I think, you know, this is this is great.
I didn't come into this conversation realizing how important.
So thank you for this.
Is that, when it comes to negotiating, the conversation with money is such a clarifying exercise to kind of clear up the interference right the energetic and emotional interference with money.
But equally important is going through the exercise of the wealth mandala.
Freaking free resource on my website.
Yes, read the book, but just do the exercise, because then we can get really clear of what else am I negotiating for outside of the financial stability slice of the pie.
Unreal.
Elizabeth, I could talk to you all day about this.
And it's almost like I just wish you might have you know, written a book or something where people could get wisdom.
Is there anything like that available?
Yes.
I just recently published a book called The Power of Enough.
Finding joy in your relationship to money.
I actually say that word intentionally, because there is the possibility of experiencing and finding joy in our relationship to money, when we realize money and wealth are different things.
So you can buy it wherever books are sold.
And I also have a website, Elizabeth Husserl, that's H-U-S-S-E-R-Lcom, with a bunch of free resources, lots of podcasts and interviews and just a lot of things to get the wheels turning for you to really dive in into your relationship to money.
And my ask is you read the book.
Don't just put it on your books on your bookshelf, right?
Or on your nightstand, read the book because the book is going to invite you to take a journey.
And that journey will serve you in every single aspect of your life.
That's the power of a masterclass.
One topic, multiple lenses, and real-world application.
And now the question is, what will you do with it?
Negotiation isn't theory.
It's practice.
It's self-awareness.
It's choosing courage over comfort.
So pick one insight today and apply it in your next conversation, because skill doesn't come from listening.
It comes from doing.
I'll catch you in the next one.
Hey, if you're still here, that means you really like this episode.
So why don't you leave us a review?
Five stars, please.
That really means the world to us and it helps other people find the show.
And now, I will catch you later.
