From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
Today, I'm talking to Jeanette McCurdy.
Jeanette pretty much grew up in front of an audience.
She was a Nickelodeon star.
You probably know her from the show iCarly.
But behind the scenes, she was struggling.
And she wrote about all of it in her 2022 bestselling memoir, I'm Glad My Mom Died.
Now, she has a new book out.
It's a novel, and it's called Half His Age.
And it's a story about a relationship between a 17-year-old girl named Waldo and her 40-year-old teacher, Mr Corgi.
What hit me about Half His Age is just how complicated this dynamic is between Waldo and Mr. Corgi.
Jeanette does not sugarcoat their relationship, but she also doesn't pass judgment.
Jeanette told me when she was 18, she had her own age gap relationship.
And it took writing this book for her to fully come to terms with what happened and what she learned from it.
A heads up before we get into it, this episode does get explicit.
So if you're listening with kids around, save this one for later.
Jeanette McCurdy, welcome to Modern Love.
Hi, Anna.
Jeanette, your first book was a memoir that spent over 80 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list.
It's called I'm Glad My Mom Died.
And now you've written a new book called Half His Age.
It's a novel.
It's fiction.
But there are elements of your own life that you brought into the story, which we'll get into.
First, though, why don't you tell me about this book?
What is Half His Age about?
Yeah.
Half His Age – whoa, I got so serious –
We can span all these different tones.
I was like, this is the New York Times.
Why is it sultry, too, kind of?
I like that vibe.
Please.
That feels like it actually kind of fits with what Half His Age is about, right?
A bit of a sultry vibe?
All right.
Give it to me.
So Half His Age is an exploration of female rage and power and desire, as told through the lens of a very lonely and ravenous 17-year-old girl.
Mm-hmm.
Ravenous.
That is a specific word.
Tell me what you mean by that.
She wants desperately so many things, so many things.
She wants clothing that will make her feel like someone other than she is.
She wants beauty items that she thinks will make her feel like something other than she is.
She wants a person who she thinks might make her feel like something other than she is.
She's really desperately seeking identity and solace and comfort in in many different areas of life.
She wants.
There's this deep well of wanting.
Yeah.
And let's even sort of set the scene even more.
Waldo, the main character, is 17.
She lives in Alaska.
What's her family situation like?
So Waldo was born to a teen mother.
Her mother had her when she was 16 years old, and she spent her childhood in various trailer parks.
She has not great self-esteem as a result of her circumstances and various messaging that she's gotten from various people her mother society
And now when we meet her in the book, she's just going into her senior year of high school.
And it's in school that we meet the other main character of this book, Mr. Corgi.
Tell me about Mr. Corgi.
Mr. Corgi.
Pause.
Where do we begin?
Now, you know, there's two ways that I could answer this.
And one is this sort of, you know, skewering him in defending Waldo and protecting Waldo, which is one instinct that I have.
And the other is to more, to empathize with him and to find the humanity in him.
And as challenging as that was kind of throughout the writing process, that wound up being really really pivotal so that he wasn't too mustache twirly or, you know, on the nose villainous.
So, Mr Corgi, if I try to touch into my empathy toward him.
He's a 40-year-old creative writing teacher who has so many failed dreams.
None of his dreams for himself panned out.
He's living with a lot of regret and a lot of disappointment, most of that unprocessed.
He's just kind of chugging along, going through the day-to-day fulfilling his duties and obligations as a husband, as a father, as a teacher.
And trying to feel okay with himself, despite really feeling shame about not living up to his expectations for the life that he wanted for himself.
I mean, people can't see this, but I have the pleasure of, you're closing your eyes.
I mean, it's clear to me that you're inhabiting his mind.
And what you said about empathy, I think is so striking and so important because Waldo, 17, Mr. Corgi, 40-something, they begin a sexual and a romantic relationship, a deeply intimate relationship that the rest of the book doesn't. explore sort of the peaks and the valleys and the fallout of, you know, in both of their lives.
Tell me more about what you said.
There's these two ways.
You could look at him as a.
You know what was the.
It was like to really judge.
And then the other was this empathy that you embodied.
And you said that was a struggle when you were writing this book.
Tell me a little bit more about that.
Yeah, I went through so many drafts of this novel.
And In the beginning drafts, I really wrote Corgi as too on the nose, as too villainous.
And I think that was me as an author interfering because I wanted to protect Waldo.
Because I felt so much love and compassion for her and not as much for Corgi.
I had those judgments toward him that I think are the very easy kind of, you know, first draft judgments that you're going to have of a person in this kind of a situation.
And then when I would read those drafts back, I realized he just did not read grounded.
He did not read believable.
And ultimately, because he was reading that way, that was a disservice to Waldo as a narrator.
It made her less credible.
It made her unreliable because you're going, well, why does she even like this person?
What does she like about him?
And for her to be discredited –
If she were discredited, I would lose the novel.
So I had to go in and try to really empathize with him, really find that compassion for him and really feel into the reality of being someone in his position and the reality of being Waldo.
This book is told through Waldo's perspective.
This 17-year-old, we're really in that 17-year-old brain.
I think you did a remarkable job of inhabiting that age.
It was so effective.
It was actually quite uncomfortable for me.
You really hit that funny, fizzy mix of bravado and insecurity.
The way that you describe how Waldo puts on her makeup like it's protection, like it's armor, but she's never satisfied.
All the online shopping to kind of try on new identities.
How she hates the people in school but also sort of wants to be them.
It's like we're really inhabiting this kind of intense fluctuation of the teenage brain.
Why was it important for you to tell this story through Waldo's perspective instead of I don't know like a third-person narrator telling the story?
I also want to circle back to your discomfort.
I have I'm so curious about about anytime somebody brings up discomfort.
I'm interested.
Oh, my God.
Ask me a question.
I love that.
Yeah.
I mean, in terms of like, why was I uncomfortable?
Yes.
Oh, my gosh.
Well, I think it's it's what I'm put.
It's like I remember being this age and kind of simultaneously thinking I was the shit and thinking I was shit.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it was just this, this real roller coaster, moment to moment, not even day to day, just like truly many moments a day where I was like you know, I know stuff.
I'm mature.
Oh, my gosh.
I mean, you know, I don't know anything like this.
Just this constant vacillation of my identity.
I feel like I didn't have a core or a center.
And, you know, speak about the wanting that you said with Waldo.
My gosh, I wanted so much.
So I just I feel like you put me in that unstable is the word that comes to mind.
But I don't mean that in a judgmental way either.
I just mean like this kind of, yeah, electric feelings of of insecurity and bravado.
That's what it brought me back to.
Yeah.
So interesting.
I also, I feel like unstable is the perfect word.
I feel like nobody's stable at 17.
There's so much inherent instability and uncertainty.
You don't know where anything's going to land.
It is so uncomfortable to be 17.
It is.
Well, how did you get, let me just ask like, how did you, as a Sorry rude to someone, their age, but from my research you're 33.
Is that correct?
I'm 31.
Okay, so we're all friends here.
What was it like to put yourself back in that 17-year-old perspective?
How did you do it?
Well, maybe this is the way I relate to a 17-year-old.
Most is that I always say if emotions are on a scale of a 1 to a 10, I don't really feel anything beneath an 8.
Wait, now you don't or 17-year-old you?
No, now.
Now.
I agree with you there, girl.
I'm a feeler.
I'm such a feeler.
I'm so… you know sensitive and fought that for a long time now I'm you know I'm okay with it and it's not that it's not ever challenging it certainly can be but I've always been this way and so I think that's kind of an element of being 17 but the The real extremes I definitely don't relate to anymore.
Thank God.
Oh, my Lord.
And the feeling, the kind of what you're describing of the whiplash of narratives day to day.
I'm the worst.
I'm the best.
You know, yeah, it's quite disorienting, quite chaotic.
And, you know, it's.
I don't know how to describe it other than it was just I was actually okay, I was actually writing another novel.
Oh my gosh.
But it was something I feel like.
This thing happens with ideas, where it's like working on a project, is like being in a relationship.
And in the beginning it's the honeymoon phase and it's amazing and it's sexy and it's hot and it's the greatest thing.
And then it becomes work.
And when it becomes work, All your other little ideas start looking real hot.
And you're going, well, what if I dated them?
Could I just take them out on one date real quick?
So I was pretty deep in this other novel, and then half his age just started pushing itself up on me.
And what I mean by that is that Waldo's voice specifically started really pushing itself up on me in lines that she would say and just sort of this overwhelming almost – flush of anger kind of would surge through my body, which is, I think you know, much of Waldo is really she's suppressing her anger and I think that's really a key element of her arc.
Yeah, you do get that sense throughout the book that Waldo is is very angry and i think that's a quite powerful emotion you know to experience from.
From waldo's point of view, we get this sense of anger, anger towards her situation, anger towards mr corgi.
You know, another thing too about this account that i think is important is that in this Physical relationship with Mr Corgi, it's Waldo who makes the first move.
Can you talk to me about that choice?
Like, was that important to you?
And if so, why?
It was so important to me that Waldo be very aggressive, very forward, very adamant, very bold person.
Because ultimately she is still 17.
In whatever ways she pushes, asserts, inserts herself onto this person, into this dynamic, she's 17.
And I really tried not to be, you know, moralistic or finger wagging the writing of the book.
And here I am about to get moralistic.
I managed to go 300 pages.
But now it all comes out, my friend.
Now it all comes out.
But you know, it's like no matter what this girl does, no matter how she could throw herself at his feet, he's still 40 and he's still our teacher.
If Mr. Corgi had made the first move, what would be different about that story?
I think it would be an easier story.
I think it would be one where you can— label judgment a lot quicker and you can write off both Corgi and Waldo in a sense.
And you can kind of instantly put them into these boxes and go, okay, I know what this story is.
I know what this is going to be.
Really, I think you could close the book at that point, to be honest.
Yeah.
You wouldn't need to read it.
Yeah, yeah.
It would be very clear morally.
But instead you chose to write this book that we've said the word uncomfortable that exists like much more clearly in sort of a gray area, because Waldo wants like Waldo wants him.
And even in these sex scenes, I mean, there's like a real kind of mutuality there, right?
It's not just one person pursuing the other.
They're both hungry for each other.
There's this quote from Half His Age where Waldo says sex is the one place where my needs aren't too big and all of my yearning is acceptable.
The one place where I can show how deeply The well is within me.
The one place I can beg and whine and scream to have it filled.
So it's like sex?
Is this representation of her wanting of this kind of unquenchable need, as we've talked about?
Definitely.
I think that's such a common experience for young women.
It was certainly my experience.
It was certainly the experience of... literally every one of my female friends.
That's why I bring it up.
It's very resonant.
Yeah.
And it's like you know, at that age we don't necessarily know how to maybe even acknowledge our needs, let alone articulate them to somebody else.
Emotional needs.
Emotional needs.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so I think sex kind of acts as this placeholder or this thing that we think can house all of our needs, that we think okay well.
I want him to treat me better, to make more time for me, to acknowledge my emotions.
Instead, well, can he just fuck me?
Because that's all I think I can get.
Maybe that's all I think I'm worth.
Maybe I just don't know how to vocalize those other needs yet.
In other interviews you shared that you had an experience with an age gap relationship that started when you were around 18.
Was writing Half His Age a way to process that experience for you?
In some ways, I think so.
You know, I definitely think that seed of that overlap was the jumping off point for the novel.
And then, of course, you know waldo's her own character and and half his age is its own story and and i know so many people will project me onto this, i'm aware i'm fine with that, although i do think it is a misread, because you know waldo truly, truly is her own character and deserves to be seen for that.
But I do find writing is a way for me to process things that I maybe hadn't processed fully from my past.
I do think writing is a way for me to find closure in areas where I didn't have closure.
Well, you mentioned that it was.
Anger was the kind of anchoring emotion that pulled you, know you, towards this, this book, into this story.
So it seems like there must have maybe even, you know subconsciously been anger around this experience that you perhaps needed to work through.
Does that feel true?
Yes, several drafts in.
I literally did not know why I was writing this book, and I didn't want to analyze it.
I didn't want to figure it out.
I just thought, okay, this is coming through me.
Great.
Let's just go with it.
And then a few drafts in.
I looked back over it and I was looking over it with a red pen and a highlighter and realizing, oh my God, I have so much unprocessed anger about situations from my past.
I think that is the emotional charge that is making this book happen.
Huh.
How did it feel to realize that?
Jarring, I guess, because, you know, I've done so much work in therapy.
I've done so much, you know, personal work on myself.
And I really, really value personal growth.
And it's something that I—it's not like I'm thinking about this relationship.
It was so far in the past.
I'm not thinking about it.
I don't feel burdened by it in any way.
I'm not thinking, you know, I'm—
It's really not something that I think about.
And so the fact that there was clearly so much left to process that needed to come out about it was shocking.
Stay with us.
However much again you feel comfortable sharing.
Can you tell me about that relationship that happened when you were around 18.
Yeah, I was 18.
He was in his mid-30s.
And I was very – I was so much more naive than Waldo.
Waldo is so much bolder than I was.
She's so much more perceptive and – And sexually experienced.
That's a big part of them.
Exactly.
And sexually experienced.
I was perceptive, but I would kind of shove down my instincts and not address them at all.
Waldo's glaringly aware of how she thinks and feels about everything at all times.
A respecter for it.
But I was very suppressed.
I grew up Mormon.
And though my family hadn't really been to church, you know, in a few years, at that point I still really had that kind of Mormon value system embedded in me.
And so sex was bad and not something I was going to do until marriage.
And even sexuality was sort of perverse and viewed as perverse.
And And I had literally no experience with men at all.
Wow.
Like not even a kiss.
Let's see.
I had had one kiss.
I'd had one kiss in a Hampton Inn and Suites in Nashville, Tennessee.
Shout out.
It was hot.
Okay.
So you had a kiss, but nothing beyond that.
I had a kiss, exactly.
Nothing beyond that.
Had never been on a date, like nothing.
And then this happened, this relationship with this person.
And initially he had a girlfriend.
He lived with his girlfriend.
Whoa.
Yeah.
And there were a few months where he was with her and we were essentially together, you know?
And yeah, can I ask you like putting yourself back 18 year old you like?
What intrigued you about him?
How did you feel when you were with him?
He seemed real to me.
You know, growing up in Hollywood, there is just a certain way that world operates.
And it's really never been one that I feel like I've understood the rules of.
It feels like there is a secret code to Hollywood that everyone was told.
Everyone was just tapped on the head with the rules of Hollywood.
And I'm sitting here going— A little wand, yes.
And I'm going, what is literally anybody saying at any given time?
Why can nobody own an opinion?
Like, can we please somebody for the love of God own their opinions?
Anyway, I love Hollywood.
It's great.
I was going to say, it sounds like there'd be fun parties, question mark.
Yeah.
And then I met this person who just seemed real and seemed— And were they—I've heard another—you met them at work, so they were still part of the world, but they felt— Yeah, different from the world.
Yeah, they didn't feel Hollywood to me.
They didn't seem like they spoke in that kind of code—
It's not a wink and a gun, but Hollywood really does kind of feel like a wink and a gun, as people are just talking at you all the time.
But he just felt different and he seemed vulnerable.
He seemed honest about himself and his life.
Yeah.
I was attracted to him.
And you were physically attracted to him.
Yes, although you know I suppose there is some overlap here, because when Waldo first meets Mr Corgi she's really shocked that she is attracted to someone who is not conventionally attractive.
Yes, yes.
Up to this point in her life, she's only been attracted to people who are attractive.
Yes, she calls out that she's like, you know, the... What's it?
I'm going to butcher your beautiful words, but like the pores on his face and the punch and the These types of things she, like acknowledges these at the same time as being like.
I want his wrinkly balls.
I mean, that's something that you mention in the book, right?
Yes, she's drawn to him and doesn't really doesn't know why, because this has never happened before.
And you know, there was certainly some overlap in my experience, where this is not somebody who I found, you know, particularly physically attractive and yet I felt very attracted to him.
Was this the kind of first time you'd felt that intense physical attraction?
100%.
100%.
It was this hungry kind of, I have to be with this person attraction.
Yeah, I know it.
I mean, I felt it.
And I can also remember that first time.
How did, we talked about what drew you to him, but how did he make you feel when you were with him?
Seen in a way that Others really couldn't, I think.
I think most other people were sort of taking my, I mean, it was like a goody-two-shoes Mormon.
Like I spoke in a different voice.
It's like, mm-hmm, yes, sir.
Like so annoying, obnoxious.
And I think other people took those behaviors at face value and believed that I was that.
And there was something in him that was like, what's really going on?
Like what's underneath that?
I know you're smarter than you're pretending to be.
I know you're seeing more than you're pretending to.
What's kicking around?
And so in that way there was sort of an opportunity for me to learn more about myself than I had before through others.
That must have been really validating for a realer version of you to be seen by someone.
Yeah, it was.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, of course, I have complicated feelings about that now.
Of course.
We will get to those.
But in the I think it's interesting to sort of exist because in the space of of your 18 year old brain.
Right.
I mean, we talked about how important it is.
Again, you are not Waldo.
Waldo is not you.
It's like important to make that distinction.
You know, we spend so much time in Waldo's brain.
It's illuminating.
And now you're letting us into like.
What was actually your experience being in your brain, being like, I'm being seen.
Other people don't see me in this way.
This person feels real.
This person feels different.
For the first you said bit of time while you were seeing each other.
This man was in a relationship.
So was it a, it was more of a secret?
This was just between you two?
Yes, it was a secret.
And it was a thing that, it was a secret and it was a massive stressor.
And I think you know back on that now and the undeniable link between generational trauma and my experience and my upbringing and why I was attracted to that kind of a situation in the first place.
Now, of course, it seems utterly insane to be like wait, this person has a girlfriend that he lives with, and like just red flags on red flags, on red flags on red flags.
But at the time, there was something that my body was familiar with.
In the stress that this relationship provided me and a strange comfort in that stress.
This may sound gross.
This may sound confusing.
But I think anyone who grew up in a dysfunctional family knows exactly what I'm talking about.
I grew up with parents screaming and fighting and constantly.
And it was really chaotic.
And so my body, I think, expected and accepted that kind of chaos as normalcy, as home.
I mean, the intimate dynamic, the sexual dynamic between the two of you.
You mentioned that you were not experienced before this relationship.
At all.
I literally did not know what cum was.
I did not know what cum was.
You did not know what cum was.
Yeah.
I mean, there is a time where we don't know what cum is.
I mean, I'm 18, but that's where I was at.
I'm trying to like think about like, okay.
And what was it like to discover?
That's not a question I've ever asked on the show before.
What was it like to discover what cum was?
Nasty.
It was nasty.
And this is like a...
How do I ask this?
It's like because earlier on in the conversation you were talking about how you know, sex for you became a really important part of relationships, or like a container for emotional needs.
And how I felt value, frankly, I didn't really see or understand my value in other areas.
At all.
I, yeah, I really believed that my value came from sex.
And this, what was it, this, because this was your first sexual relationship, right?
So it's where these sort of neural pathways were being connected.
If it were like how did sex factor into this relationship and how did it sort of teach you?
This is determinant of my worth.
Well, I'll share the cum story with you first, because that was sort of the tip of the iceberg, right.
Of course.
Where, so he had, you know, he'd had a girlfriend.
This was maybe, it began in, you know, August or so.
And then by October, November, it was really, it was becoming too difficult for me.
And so I was the one who was like, I don't think I can do this anymore.
And then, of course, the moment that you say that is the moment, well, I'm leaving her.
I'm going to leave her.
Right.
I swear I'm going to tomorrow.
Did he reverse it?
He eventually did.
Yeah.
It was I'm going to do it tomorrow.
I'm going to next week.
I'm going to – and it just kept getting punted.
And then there was this big kind of grand plan where he was going to go out of town to visit family for Christmas.
Right.
And he was going to break up with her when he returned.
So he's going to go break up with his girlfriend and then I'm supposed to pick him up, right?
And so we're going to go to my apartment.
But then my mom's sick.
So then she comes to my apartment with like my dad, my grandma, my grandpa, my three brothers.
So it's just like this big Mormon dorky family in my apartment.
And I'm like trying to bring my 30-something-year-old boyfriend home, right?
So then I'm like, okay.
Sort of like, yeah, worst case scenarios in all directions.
Worst case scenario, exactly.
So then I'm like, okay, I can problem solve here.
I know what I'll do.
I'll get us a room at the Sheraton Universal.
Not the Hampton Inn where you had your first kiss?
I know, I should have gone back.
They've treated me well.
Those warm cookies are great.
So I got a night stay at the Sheraton Universal.
I picked him up.
He was drunk off his ass, which I had never had a sip of alcohol at this point.
Or yeah, maybe I had had one sip at this point.
I don't know the timeline, but I certainly had never had like a glass of alcohol at this point.
And So I didn't know that he was completely drunk.
Like now I get, oh, he was way, way, way, way, way drunk.
I didn't know if he'd had one drink.
And this is just what a person looked like.
He's like stumbling around.
There's beer stains all on his shirt.
Just a mess.
And I'm like a little embarrassed already in the lobby, right?
Because he's just stumbling around.
He's like banging up against the elevator door.
We get up to our room.
He can't even, I remember he couldn't swipe the key card.
He couldn't get it to work.
So I take the key card.
We go inside and then he's sobbing and wondering if he made the right choice, thinking he made a mistake.
He broke up.
He'd just broken up.
Literally just left this breakup.
So he's in the throes of that and really emotional and then asks me to give him a blowjob because up to this point I have said I don't do sex until marriage.
I'm not going to do that.
I don't – I mean I didn't even really know.
I wouldn't have known how to do it.
And so it had just been sort of kissing up to that point.
And then he says, you know, I need to know that you're comfortable doing something.
I'm okay not having sex, but I need to know that you'll do something because I have to have my needs met.
He had said.
Wow, that is really interesting language to use.
Isn't that interesting language?
And so I felt a flood of anxiety, like full body fire anxiety.
And just thinking, okay, I have to figure out how to do this thing that I don't know how to do.
So I was, like, asking him— Or else I'll lose him, right?
Or else I'll lose him.
I mean, that's the stakes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So then—and at first I said no.
I said no, you know, a couple times and then it was okay, I'm leaving.
You know, that kind of thing which was very much our dynamic as a whole.
It was just so unhealthy.
But—
Of course, I'm included in that.
I'm not just putting that on him.
But then he starts telling me kind of how to do it.
And so I'm giving him the blowjob.
And then, you know, he says, I'm going to come.
I don't know what that means.
I figure, like, come where?
What are you talking about?
Like, are you sitting up like that?
You know, I didn't know what that meant.
And then it came in my mouth, and I said, something came out, something came out.
And I, like, ran to the sink, and I was like, I thought he peed in my mouth.
Like, first I was, oh, my God, he peed in my mouth.
But then I'm like this doesn't – I mean, I've never tasted pee, but it doesn't taste like what I think pee would taste like.
And it was just so much confusion, so much body discomfort, and so much comedy gold now forever.
I mean, I'm making these sort of like sad laughter because like there are parts of this, just as there are parts of this book that are funny, like there is humor here.
There is humor and being like what the heck is this?
You know.
But but then you sort of zoom out and you understand, you see the context in which you know this is happening in the power dynamics that are operating here, and so it is, it doesn't?
It's like humor alongside of this other thing.
I mean, after this happened um, Do you remember how you felt?
Were you like, I did it.
Like, he's, I've got him.
Like, I'm keeping him.
What was the, what was your feeling, if you can remember?
No, I think I felt very shaky and uncertain.
And I didn't think I had done a good job.
Like I, you know, growing up as that people pleaser, I was really always reading myself on the performance of how much I was accommodating somebody else's needs and desires.
So it was, you know, how did I do on that blow job?
Oh, I don't think I did well.
You know, and so then it was just stress of thinking I hadn't really done well.
Yeah.
And I got better, don't worry.
I was freaking out to know.
Don't you worry.
But you know, I'm glad you bring up this humor thing too, because I think, you know, I think it's an important piece of all of this.
I think there's so much humor and levity in dark subject matter, and to pretend there isn't is actually denying the truth of it.
And I think there's a way of – there's a way where humor can make something flippant or undermine the subject matter.
And I don't like that.
I don't think that, I think that's kind of deflective and a defense mechanism.
And I generally don't enjoy reading those things, watching those things.
They just don't resonate with me.
But I do think there is an element of humor and tragedy that can be really honest and really valuable.
I think otherwise something can just be too kind of melodramatic and And insincere in that way.
Huh.
Is there another moment from this time in your life, from this relationship...
That has that kind of – that you think about with some amount of humor?
Is there another moment that comes to mind?
I mean, literally every element of my life that was happening at that point.
Jeez.
Yeah, I was 18 on a Nickelodeon show in a relationship with a 30-year-old person while my mom was dying.
And this sort of juxtaposition the highs and lows of that world were – were oftentimes really funny.
It was hard at the time, but there was certainly humor in almost any given room at any given time.
And maybe I wasn't able to see it then, but I think nowadays, I think somewhere in my maybe mid-late 20s, it shifted, mid-20s, where I could kind of see the humor a little bit more in real time.
It didn't take 10 years of perspective or whatever to find the humor in something happening currently.
Yeah.
We'll be right back.
The sort of ending of this relationship that you were in.
Can you describe how you left it, how things ended or stopped?
I left his ass.
Okay, hell yeah, okay.
I mean, as much as you want to share about that, I would be curious to hear.
I was still acting at the time, and I was going away on a shoot to Canada, I want to say.
I've heard of it, yeah.
Toronto, yeah.
I was trying to remember if I was doing a shoot in New York or if it was a different thing in Toronto, but I think it was the Toronto one.
And I just had this feeling of life is in front of me.
I had actually broken up with him once before, you know, and there had been multiple.
He had broken up with me.
I had broken up.
It was, again, that kind of a thing.
But I had broken up with him as my mom was dying.
Jeez, Jeanette.
This was kind of before this Toronto situation.
But as my mom was dying, because I felt like – my thinking was this.
I will – bond with him too much by like leaning on him and expecting the support from him and going through this experience with him.
That's going to bond me too much that I don't know if I'll get out.
I don't know if I'll be able to.
You will bond with him during this time when your mom was dying and you might not be able to extricate yourself.
So better to get out now.
I felt like I may be stuck.
I may be trapped.
And I really don't like to feel stuck or trapped in any way.
I like to feel free.
How long were you two seeing each other, all told, with the ups and downs?
It would have been like maybe a little over two years, with a couple like short breakups in between.
In the relationships, in the years that followed, I mean, you had other relationships, would you...
Would you think about this guy?
Would like something clue you?
No, not at all.
You're shaking your head.
Yeah, not at all.
No, I literally, it was truly, I think by the time I move on from things, I am ready to move on.
I have tried everything.
I have exhausted all options.
I am confident in my decision.
And that goes for literally.
I mean I can think of so many things, relational and otherwise, that once I move on, I'm going, I'm not looking back.
I've wasted enough time on this already.
I'm good.
But then this anger resurfaced.
Why do you think it resurfaced now?
Like what was it or not now in the moment of writing this book?
Why?
What brought it back up?
I've thought about that.
I've explored that.
I think what it is is that in our 30s, we as women, we finally have this space.
To reframe our relationship with our past self in a way.
To meet her with more – I'm actually getting a little goosebumps when I'm saying this.
It must be true.
Where it feels like.
Oh, I can see myself with more compassion than I had for myself before and more understanding.
And you know, our 20s are such a blur typically and we're just – it's ambition and we're trying to find our way, and it's a mess, and relationship is just it's chaos and it's fun chaos and it's messy chaos and it's ugly chaos.
But then by you know, by 30, we've kind of started to maybe land somewhere, find our footing, settle in.
There's space to reflect in a way that maybe we didn't in our 20s.
And I think it really opens up our relationship to our past self in a way that we didn't have access for previously.
Oh my gosh, from one 30-something woman to, I'm like, yes, it's so true.
But I think what you're saying is very spot on, at least with my experience.
This is the first time in my life, this age, where I feel like I have that space to reflect, to process, to look back at things.
And it seems like when you looked back at this relationship, anger was there.
Something that resurfaced.
I guess I wonder, like, in writing this book, do you look back on that relationship differently?
Like, do you see it in a new way?
Yeah, I think it's one of the many superpowers of writing.
Writing is, you know, it does lead to closure where there wasn't closure.
And I think I felt I didn't even realize that I didn't have closure about this thing, but I think I felt that
And there's, I think there's a softness that's accessible there.
Through, I think, letting the rage out, letting it, you know, lead.
There's now kind of a softness and, dare I say, you know, an appreciation maybe.
Wow.
For that experience, yeah.
For that experience.
It's, of course, very complicated.
And I have a lot of regret about that.
And it's not clean in any way.
But I think I can either... stay mad at it and hold on to that.
Or I can say, you know what?
I've moved on from it.
I have learned from it.
It's informed who I am today and the choices I've made.
And how can I take value from it?
And I think, circling back to power, that's a way of finding power, because maybe I didn't really feel any at the time.
This anger, we're speaking of, who were you angry at?
Him, yourself, the world?
Like, what was that anger directed towards?
Him and myself.
And then, I think, my circumstances, assuming that some version of those circumstances, maybe you know, led me down that path or contributed to me landing on that path.
Hmm.
Meaning, like you know, for example, growing up Mormon and having such strict guidelines and rules constantly and regulations and, you know, being on kids' TV and just feeling like I was supposed to be this one thing all the time.
It's like a pressure cooker.
It's like a shaken soda can.
It's like it's going to burst at some point.
And what better way to burst?
What better way for a people pleaser Mormon child actor, mommy's angel to burst than going guess what?
My first relationship is going to be with a 30-something-year-old man.
Take that, everybody.
Like, mic drop.
Huh.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, yeah.
I wasn't thinking that.
I, of course, wasn't like, oh, I'm going to do this to get back at people.
But, you know, in hindsight, I do see elements of that for sure.
Yeah.
What's on the other side of anger?
Like once you expel it, what's there?
What's left?
Well, I don't even want to expel it.
Like, I love anger.
I'm so grateful for anger.
I think it's led me to make every strong, good decision in my life that I've made.
Anger is what got me to get over an eating disorder.
Anger is what got me to get into the right relationship, which is the one that I'm in now that I've been in for nine years.
You know, anger is what got me to quit acting and say no more.
Anger is what's gotten me anything good in my life.
I mean, it sounds counterintuitive.
I feel like I emotionally understand, but help me understand more.
When you say, like, anger got me into this wonderful relationship, how did anger get you there?
What do you mean by that?
Because I was so sick of previous relationships and how I behaved in previous relationships, how the other person behaved, what the dynamic was.
And I just thought you know I've got to put in the work and I would get you know self-help books and I would look at YouTube videos of therapists and dating advice.
And just, I thought, I'm going to figure this out.
I'm too fucking mad.
I'm going to figure out how to do it right and how to do it better.
I'm going to heal the parts that need healing so that I don't recreate these patterns.
And it's hard work, but anger is so mobilizing that it can get you through, I think, any amount of work.
Like, thank God for anger.
I think, you know, sadness can really, for me, keep me stuck.
And Just in the trenches and anxiety can keep me kind of debilitated and I'm not able to make a decision because I'm too anxious.
But my God anger will get me off the fucking chair and making some decisions and moving forward and doing the work.
This is sort of a classic question, but I think it's merited here.
If you could talk to 18-year-old you, 18-year-old Jeanette, what would you say to her?
Run.
Run.
Run, baby, run fast, run far.
Yeah, yeah.
I really would.
I really would.
You know, I mentioned earlier kind of an appreciation for the past, and I do feel that.
But I also think truly, if I could tell myself anything, I'd say run, because sure, you've got stories to tell now, but you would have had other stories to tell if you had just left those situations, numerous situations.
Yes.
I think that's the first time I've heard that response, run.
And it was immediate.
It was immediate.
And I have, you know, just be gentle with yourself.
You're like, get out.
Wow.
Jeanette, thank you so much for this conversation.
Thank you, Anna.
It's been so rich.
I was going to say fun.
Fun is appropriate.
Rich is appropriate.
But it just feels fulfilling.
So thank you.
The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis.
This episode was produced by Sarah Curtis.
It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant.
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.
Original music in this episode by Rowan Nemisto, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Carol Saburo, Alicia B Etoupe, Marion Lozano and Dan Powell.
Dan also composed our theme music.
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin.
Thanks for listening.
