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Live, work hard and be nice.
Is that basically your career philosophy?
Yeah, have i said that exact exactly before?
I feel like i have.
I feel like that's like the number one.
Um, you know honestly, if i put them in order, it would be be be nice first and work hard.
Uh second not not not, like you know um, don't dismiss working hard.
But man being, being a good hang or just being somebody that somebody wants in the room, will take you so far, i feel like, in in any, any sort of any job atmosphere at all.
Why, i would have assumed, especially in music, if you're some virtuoso guitarist, nobody likes an asshole dude.
It doesn't matter how good you are or something.
I just... Nobody wants that person in the room, I feel like.
And I just How many times.
I cannot tell you how many times I've done podcasts, or we've gotten a VIP tour of something, or we had a driver, you know, in LA or in New York.
And then we've been like, you ever had anybody that was just terrible to work with?
And people just remember that, man.
And it's a lot of times it's people that are like really famous and really successful and very talented.
And And there's just.
I know that people like drivers and you know people that give Disney World tours and stuff like that are not people that are going to, you know, help advance your career.
But but I think that transcends stuff like that.
And just being nice to people and making sure everybody is appreciated and feels comfortable around you.
And I just think it's important.
There's a guy called Paul Graham who's an investor and a writer from the UK.
He lives in the UK now.
He's got this great idea.
Famous jerks are not role models.
Some talented people are jerks.
And this sometimes makes it seem to the inexperienced that being a jerk is part of being talented.
It isn't.
Being talented is merely how they get away with being a jerk.
Wow, that's really good.
I think it's true.
Yeah, totally.
A hundred percent.
The success is not because of them being an asshole.
The fact that they are successful is how they get away with being an asshole.
Yeah.
100%.
Yeah.
Would you call it a paradox?
A little bit.
Yeah.
Well, it's certainly uh, It's certainly surprising, because it gives people this idea that oh, ego is where the success has been like, cultivated from.
Right.
As opposed to the fact that, like the success, gave them this buffer zone where people are.
I can't be too mean to Hardy because, like you know, like look at all the songs he does and stuff.
Right.
So I mean it's kind of surprising, because I think a lot of people in jobs they see it as being transactional that if you are good at X you will get Y.
But there's the packaging that your talent comes in which is like well, you were good hang.
How are you on the bus?
What's your morale like when you've done three shows in three days and everybody's tired?
It's like are you the one that brings everybody up, or are you the one that's like ah dude, this is so tough?
This is so hard.
I'm missing the water.
Everyone's doing that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's very true, man.
And it's just, I've always just kind of thought that it's like it takes way more effort to be, you know, like an asshole than just to be nice.
And there's, I mean I've, I've had my moments, I mean for sure, where I just I'm I'm exhausted or mentally drained, or my meter is at all times zero.
And, and those are moments where I feel like I just get more quiet more than, more than anything.
But, um man, it's just so much easier to be just nice to people and and Just keep a smile on your face and keep it light and just do what you got to do.
And even if it's something you don't want to do, you do it anyway and have fun with it.
And I don't know.
It just seems way less effort to do that.
In your experience, is being a good guy, a performance enhancer, rather than trying to be ruthless and screwing people over?
What do you mean by that?
If you're a nice person, are they the ones that end up winning in the end?
Because there is a sense that ruthlessness and being cutthroat and you know, sort of like going for it aggressive lean in.
Oh, well, that's how you achieve success.
I don't think, I don't think there's a real, true answer to that, because I think there's tons of people.
I think.
I would like to think that more nice people win certainly, but I don't think it's true every time, by any means.
Well, I'm interested for you, especially about the tension between being a songwriter and an artist, right.
Because you're part of the Nashville engine.
I was talking to a friend yesterday who put you as, like one of the best three songwriters in Nashville, which is probably about as competitive as it can be.
That's very nice.
Um, but you're behind the scenes.
You were behind the scenes.
Then you become in front of the scenes and now you've got to try and balance these two worlds.
Uh, What's the tension like between being artist and also being contributor to other artists at the same time?
I try not to think about it, really.
You know, I mean I'm very thankful to have started out as a songwriter because I feel like can jump right in and never skip a beat.
You know i can tour for six months or whatever and barely write a song and then just jump right in and write for somebody else and it's like not difficult at all.
But um, i've never really thought about the balance or like the pressure between the two at all.
I mean to be completely candid, touring is a lot more lucrative than songwriting.
A little bit of that takes the pressure off of having to make a career out of songwriting, but I just want to write hits for other people so bad that I will just never not want to do that.
It's why I moved to town.
It's my first love.
I just love having great songs and giving that song to somebody and hoping that it helps their career and and all that, but I've never really felt pressure.
There's definitely been times where I have been like okay, like I'll hit up my management or link my management and my publishing and be like Hey guys, we need to find a balance.
Like I need to write more songs.
Cause it's just, it's a tank that I have, that if it's, if it's empty, I you know, I feel a little bit less sense of purpose if I haven't been writing songs, whether no matter what they may be.
And and so um, you know, there's times where I become a little more aware that I need to, I need to sort of re redistribute my, my time.
But um, I've never really felt the pressure to to do one more than the other or, like you know, one's falling behind.
You know, I try to keep them even or anything like that.
It's just, I don't know.
I try to take the pressure off myself and I think it makes for more creativity and better creative moments and stuff, when you don't feel pressure to write hits or, like you know, pressure to write so many songs or anything like that.
What if you write what if you write a real slammer?
There must be a sense in your mind where you go, what do I, is this a me?
Do I just like keep this one in the, in the Hardy folder or is that happens a lot?
It happens all the time.
Um, they, uh, it's funny.
I, uh, there's a lot of songs though that I just, it's a slammer, but it's just not for me.
And and And.
Uh, there's a lot of time, a lot of writers that I have, even friends of mine that I'm that are like you sure.
Or like I can tell, I'm like man.
This would be good for this would be great for you know, Blake Shelton.
And they're like, oh yeah, cool.
You know, maybe you was right.
Yeah.
Um, But even that is very –.
I usually know by the time we get verse chorus if I'm going to cut the song or if I'm going to give it to someone else, or hopefully give it to someone else.
I was talking to John Ballion.
He was on the show a couple of weeks ago.
And obviously he took this big hiatus from being an artist to just do the songwriting thing.
And he said he knew when – uh, he was ready to get back to producing music because he would have, you know, this list of demos or whatever.
He'd have 15 demos and he'd be showing it to uh, whoever was in the studio with him, and there would always be one or two tracks that he would just like he'd skip over the top of.
He'd leave that one to one side.
He'd never show that.
Yeah, i thought that was so cute.
He was like I really really like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For me, I, the LA approach is very different, I think.
And, but I will say like, I don't ever play anybody my best stuff.
Like ever until it's, until it's out.
I just like the big reveal of them and uh, you know the the keep it a secret.
I just feel like it's more of like an explosion when it comes out, even with your friends and stuff.
You know it's to get.
Nashville talking about a song is very is just as important as like, the public hearing about it.
I think um, i just think that people buzz about a song and and um, I don't know what it is, but there's just something about Nashville buzzing about a song that just helps it always.
What do people not understand about how the Nashville scene works?
In what way?
Generally, I mean, it's a fucking engine for music.
It's a factory for music.
But, at least from my perspective, the fact that you have a room where anybody who typically you've got like the the writer, credit of dude, you're over the far side chewing on a toothpick or whatever like thank you for being in the room.
You contributed to this.
The fact that you will have multiple different rooms going at one time and artists will bounce between those if they're really really trying to crank it.
Um, it seems to me like There aren't many scenes like Nashville when it comes to writing music, maybe anywhere on the planet.
It's very different.
I mean, I think Nashville's work ethic is better than other cities I've written in.
I think that top liners like lyric and melody, or at least lyric writers storytellers, I think it.
It's the best in the world.
I think that Nashville has the greatest storytellers in the world.
And it is.
It's a machine.
And it all starts with the song, which I think is really cool, man.
And like right now, today, what time is it right now?
It's 10-11 right now.
There are more.
There's probably 300 rooms of people writing songs right now in Nashville trying to get the next hit.
Excuse me.
And there's a lot of those songs that are going to be have potential to be the next, you know, and within the next year, a big old hit.
And it's it's it's kind of off to the races from there.
You know, I think it's the coolest thing ever.
Is there something about country as a musical style which affords storytelling more room than other genres do?
Yeah, sure.
I think that can go back to a long time ago.
Much of country music's biggest songs have been stories, and so I just think it's a pattern.
If that's kind of what you're getting at... I mean...
Basically, are you just saying, like why is it easier or more common to write stories in country than any other thing?
To a degree, yeah.
And then is there something to do with the structure of country as a, a genre which affords more, more room for story time, like a rock right?
Or like just very unique ways to piece a story together and then keep on looping things back?
Um, i don't know.
That's a really good question is if i was to like, put my total amateur Theory forward.
It's so lyric driven.
It's so vocals heavy Yeah, but are there many country songs where people go to?
I just love the riff right.
Well, no, but with something like Caramel by sleep token that plucky little intro thing that it has is is as yeah exactly like it almost the first time i ever heard it i thought is this like some like reggaeton jamaican inspired because it almost does have that sound like yeah so i'm like all right well that is as much a part and if you move into metal or more hard stuff well the riff actually can be the lead that's what people love but with country very rarely, is it going to be that it's much more about, it's way less about the music for sure.
Like their arrangement.
Um, I think that producers would argue you know, like my producer Joey, is like you got to fill the space and and uh, you know, takes a lot of time to in the studio to make sure like the parts are right and that everything is catchy.
And there's just a bunch of, that all the spaces are filled, but no, it is very much.
It's, it's, it's, it's all about the, the lyrics.
You're right.
And very, I mean, the vocal is out front and that's everything.
At least right now, people can argue that like that, that sub genre of country that's like whiskey, Myers and and a lot of the sync country is like, which is like S, Y and C.
Like you know, a lot of the stuff that you hear on the TV shows and stuff is more about music and and less about lyric.
But, um, I don't know.
I can't really speak to that, but, um, no, you're, you're totally right.
I, it's, It's just the way it's always been.
And the country has never really been about anything other than the lyrics and the vocal, or both at the same time.
Talk to me about where inspiration and creativity comes from for you, or what sort of your creative process looks like.
Because you've got a bunch of stuff going on, high volume uh, writing for other people.
I've heard you say it's between sort of two and three days a week that you're cranking that out.
Yeah.
On a good, like when, in a good, yeah.
When you're not on tour, a little bit of time, maybe not on your dad.
Um, but then you've also got your own stuff.
You've got your own obligations, but then you've also got this balance between volume of output and quality of output.
You can't be doing five songs a day, three days a week and maximizing in the same way that you would if, it was sure, spending a little bit more time.
So i'm interested in this balance.
Yeah, inspiration and creativity with uh output, i mean.
You know, the one cool thing about nashville, before i even get into this, is we all stand, the songwriters all stand on each other's shoulders and you know thankfully, there's so much like collaboration and and um um camaraderie within that.
You know, in Nashville that, like you know, you go into a room with some people and and um, like I might be exhausted.
I might have not been in a good like idea headspace.
And, uh, you go in and like your buddy or whoever you're writing with has the idea.
And it's just like, Oh, thank God.
You know what I mean?
That pressure is off.
And now I can just latch onto this idea and help write this in the room.
But, you know, um, so that, you know, so your collaborators always make it a lot easier on you.
It's like if you and I, Or it's like if you ask me to move this table across the room, or we got six people to do it and the weight is a lot lighter, and that's what it's always felt like for me.
So um, first and foremost, if you don't have an idea, don't don't let your panic or your um, your inhibition put that you know, the cloud over your creative bubble.
Um, because you just have to always trust that somebody's going to have something.
If you don't, you know, and that that helps with the creative process.
But uh man, for me i just, i have a running list of uh, i'll scroll fast and nobody steals my shit.
Yeah yeah, we can, we can, we can blur it, i'll see.
So i can.
Yeah, because i'm writing after this today too, amazing.
Um, but these are just all song, either lines or notes or whatever.
And it dates back to like probably 10 years ago.
It was just a running list of notes.
Mine is short.
I see people scroll through theirs and they're super long.
And I'm like, damn bro.
Well, you keep on turning them into songs, which is true.
That's true.
And then you delete it.
Sometimes it's like sad.
You're like, damn, I've been looking at that idea for, two or three years and you delete it.
But man, yeah.
And I know this is not exactly what you were getting at, but I love talking about this because it's so, like any other office or whatever it may be.
It's like everybody has their ideas and then you walk into a publishing house, or usually a lot of times these days it's either somebody's studio or their home studio or but like you, just walk in and you know everybody now.
So it's just like, it's, there's, there's not, it's not this like light a candle Kumbaya, you know, like somebody's like, man, I just went through this horrible heartbreak.
Let's blah, blah, blah.
You know, it's just, it's not like that.
And, but I love that.
It's that we can like, take a moment where we're, we're walking in and we're like well, you know and, and you get down to business and you know, i'm a big deer hunter and most a lot of nashville riders are big deer hunters.
So right now we're just talking about deer hunting and then everybody goes, oh well, let's see here.
And then somebody's like heart, you know, hearts on fire, and you just start throwing out random ideas and uh, and it's just one of them sticks, and then then you write it because everybody in the room is a professional songwriter.
And then a year later, it's like a seven week number one, dude.
It's like.
It's just crazy to me, but it's it's, but I what I'm getting at is how, not?
Um, it's not like, it's not, as you would never think that it's like not a creative thing.
You know from the heart kind of thing, because it's country music and like these the stories are so good and they make people cry.
But the songwriters like myself and other people, it's like we're not crying in the room.
But when we write a line, we're like, this is going to this is going to hammer somebody.
It's going to make like, you know, and we mean that not in a funny way, but like in a very like.
You know, like this is going to help a lot.
Like when I, when we wrote wait in the truck, when we like finished that song and Jordan Schmidt and his home studio like played that song top down, we all looked at each other and we were like dude, this is going to destroy some people.
And that's like, we did our job that day, you know?
And.
Um, but anyway, it's just, I love the creative process.
I probably went way off on a tangent, but I just I love talking about how not creative the creative process looks.
You know, and we're not sitting in a vibey room and and i some some places are like that and that's totally fine, like i know la, it's a lot about more about like getting in the mood and waving sage or burning some sage, waving that around yeah, you know, and certain candles that smell a certain way and all that.
But Man in Nashville, it's truly just a bunch of normal guys and girls, normal looking people that are just their brains are just wired different and they're incredibly good at what they do.
But they, you know, and it just you just would never know it.
And I just think that's the coolest thing ever.
Some of the most creative people in the world.
Some people in the world, some people in this town have the ability to make people like ball their eyes out, that live anywhere that can speak English.
And they just are like a chubby dude that just goes to the grocery store every other day and lets his dogs out every night and afternoon.
It's cool to me.
It's like the coolest thing ever.
That's sick, man.
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The only equivalent that I can uh get from my world writing and podcasting is.
Sometimes I'll come across something that I've never heard of before.
There was this love letter that Richard Feynman wrote to his wife.
I stumbled upon it. and was thinking about it for ages before I actually talked about it.
Cause I didn't know if I could say it without crying.
And it's basically this uh love letter to his wife Darlene, that he hasn't written for quite a long time.
And then, about two thirds of the way through the love letter, you find out that she's dead and he's writing this to his wife.
That's passed away.
Oh my God, dude.
So I like, Bro, it's... Do you want me to read it to you?
Let me read it to you.
God, I don't know.
I don't think I've ever cried on camera before, but sure.
Let's see if we can do it.
Jesus Christ.
Well, I've already... Tear up literally just like saying it, but you've already... At least you've given it away so it takes the shock away a little bit.
I've warned you a little bit.
All right.
October 17th, 1946.
To Arlene, I adore you, sweetheart.
I know how much you like to hear that, but I don't only write it because you like it.
I write it because it makes me warm all over inside to write it to you.
It is such a terribly long time since I last wrote to you almost two years but I know you'll excuse me because you understand how I am stubborn and realistic and I thought there was no sense to writing.
But now I know, my darling wife, that it is right to do what I have delayed in doing and that I have done so much in the past.
I want to tell you I love you.
I want to love you.
I will always love you.
I find it hard to understand in my mind what it means to love you after you are dead.
But I still want to comfort and take care of you.
And I want you to love me and care for me.
I want to have problems to discuss with you.
I want little projects with you.
I never thought, until just now, that we can do that.
What should we do?
We started to learn to make clothes together, or learn Chinese, or get a movie projector.
Can't I do something now?
No, I'm alone without you.
And you were the idea woman and general instigator of all our wild adventures.
When you were sick, you worried that you could not give me something that you wanted to and thought I needed.
You needn't have worried.
Just as I told you then, there was no real need because I loved you in so many ways so much.
And now it is clearly even more true.
You can give me nothing now, yet.
I love you so that you stand in my way of loving anyone else.
But I want you to stand there.
You, dead, are so much better than anyone else alive.
I know you will assure me that I am foolish and that you want me to have full happiness and don't want to be in my way.
I bet you are surprised that I don't even have a girlfriend, except you sweetheart, after two years.
But you can't help it darling, nor can I.
I don't understand it, for I have met many girls, and very nice ones, and I don't want to remain alone.
But in two or three meetings, they all seem ashes.
You only are left to me.
You are real.
My darling wife, I do adore you.
I love my wife.
My wife is dead.
P.S.
Please excuse my not mailing this, but I don't know your new address.
Oh, my God.
Jesus, man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's insane.
It's...
Like, is that real?
That's a real thing he did for his real wife.
So, like, there's still there's so much poetry.
And I mean there's so much to me.
Part of the, the gag or the like the, the trick is, is not revealing the thing until it's like the perfect time.
Right.
So, like that's the thing you know, I struggle to know what it means to love you after you are dead.
Yeah.
And and and the songwriting.
From a songwriting you would probably wait to the very end.
You know to do that.
But even still, like it's waiting on.
That is such a poetic, it's such a, I mean it's.
It's a simple.
You know we call it a trick, but but uh yeah that's, that's beautiful.
I mean it's.
I'm trying to think of a song that i have, or that i know of, that has like a twist at the very end of a song um, but you kind of have to like oh shit, i gotta listen to that again.
You know, like I missed it.
It's like an M. Night Shyamalan movie and you miss the sixth sense.
Yeah, like Christopher Nolan or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you're like, wait, he was dead the whole time, but he was talking to that person.
Wait, he wasn't talking to her.
She was talking to nobody.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Those are the best, man.
So for me, finding something like that is the kind of equivalent of going into the room and being like like is this right, is this?
And then you finally find something and you go this deserves to get out there.
Like this is how can i craft this?
In a way there's other little bits and pieces.
Most of the time it's not a big chunk right, it's.
You tell a story and then you repurpose it, you rework it around.
Uh, i've heard you say dark songs tell the truth in a way, happy songs can't.
Yeah, It's weird.
How so?
I don't know because people, maybe it's just me.
Maybe I'm just like, just dark, darker than maybe I even think I am.
But like I have just like songs about dark things, even if there's a hopeful like a weight in the truck, you know that's like a very, it's like a hero story.
But, People just gravitate towards that more.
I've always found.
I don't know why, but I'm trying to think of another good example, but I don't know.
I mean, again, maybe I haven't done a study.
I haven't surveyed a thousand people, but it just seems that sad songs are, or like really really good heartbreak songs or death, you know, people dying songs.
Even if they are, they have a happy lesson in them, like a live like you were dying kind of thing.
There's just people, people attach themselves to that stuff more.
I do think that there's a lot of like a lot of dark moments in people's lives and i think that you know, if you, if you can find a way to relate to that and that be a song, then you're gonna probably attach to that.
You know pretty, pretty hard.
But um, i yeah, i don't know why, but i just i feel like and it's so weird dark songs are so much easier to write.
Um, You think,
Yeah.
For me, I mean for me personally, and it's like if you have a, you know, if somebody threw out a song called the best day ever or whatever, you know I'd be like I don't know man.
The worst day ever.
Yeah.
I'd be like, how would you do that?
How would you spend, would you spend that a certain way?
Or like, yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's weird.
Maybe that's just me.
My wife kind of, she kind of gives me hell a lot and, uh, or let's just say gives me encouragement.
Cause, uh, I'll, you know, this last record I had spoke a lot about mortality, like a lot.
And, uh, a lot of it was in a very positive way of like, appreciate your life now.
Cause you know, one day you won't be here.
But, um, she was like, you need to write happier songs.
Stop fucking whining.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dude.
You're so emo.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, write some happier stuff.
So maybe I should, but it's just, it's, it's not as easy.
It's why I guess, uh, Luke comes out.
Maybe the one before last.
Um, that was everything's great and life's going well and you know, dad's getting a bit older but my son's growing up and he misses we when i'm away, but my wife's good and you're like okay well that's, that's a pivot right from like, this is broken and that's not so great.
Yeah true yeah, he kind of had the emo in his own way and cut the fringe off.
Yeah yeah yeah um Yeah, it is a really interesting blend to think about why people resonate.
Here's one thing.
I think people feel alone in their sadness in a way that causes them to try and seek companionship or comfort.
So like, fuck, like, Somebody else feels that.
Yeah.
As opposed to if everything's going great and if you're happy, like, yeah, sure.
It's nice that someone else is also happy along with you.
It's just hard to like relate to somebody that's it's so weird.
I don't know why that is a thing, but you're totally right.
You're like, you're having a great I'm having a great day.
You know, like nobody ever says that.
But if somebody's having a bad day, you're like, oh, my God.
Come here.
Let me.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Every man knows God when he's at his lowest.
Right.
You reflect so much more.
There's this cool story from a coach of mine, Joe.
He talks about his daughter.
She was like nine at the time.
And she was crying in the bathroom.
And the way that she was crying, he said, you don't sound that sad to me.
You sound pissed off.
And she's like, I am.
I said well, you know when you're crying in the bathroom, how often are you pissed off and how often are you sad.
He says, about half the time.
I was like, well, how can you cry?
Like, why...
Why are you crying if you're angry half the time?
If you're pissed off, how come you're crying?
And she says, well, when I'm angry, everybody runs away.
But when I cry, my sister comes and looks after me.
I just thought it was such a brilliant insight into this sort of the pro-social, not seductive but like attractive gravitational force of sadness.
And I think a lot of the time.
Even when people are mad, they sometimes turn it into being sad, because when people are mad, others run away.
But when they're sad, people come and help them.
I wonder if that's maybe a little bit of something.
I don't know.
That's a weird, that's strange dynamic grooves of your brain, like because nobody, nobody is outwardly thinking like maybe if i just act like i'm sad.
That's like some caveman brain thing that's been around a long time but people do it for some reason.
That's crazy.
Yeah, i think so in other news.
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You said you welcomed a lot of mortality.
What inspired that?
I don't know.
It's just that maybe a headspace I've been in of, uh, appreciating life a little bit more.
Um, you know we we, I was in a pretty bad bus accident a couple of years ago and it kind of opened my eyes to a lot of uh, just how, how it can kind of go like that.
And It's a miracle that any of us survive.
We all survive.
It's a miracle that any of us did.
And I don't know.
I feel like, since then, just my mortality, or the fragility of my mortality, or my life, whatever that – however that's supposed to be worded is – it just has been a little a more apparent thing.
Uh, for me recently,
And and so I think that's why I don't really know.
But and I've already like the songs I've written since that record like nothing, nobody's died.
I haven't died.
I'm not going to die, you know, but it just, I had to get it out.
I don't know what it was, but there's, you know, there's songs about like there's.
There's songs about appreciating it.
And there's songs about like, um, I mean, I don't know.
I have to kind of go back and read the track list now, but there's, it kind of touches just on different, different ways to approach your uh, your mortality.
Um and uh.
Yeah, I just think it probably has to do a lot with the headspace that I've been in.
Post bus wreck.
I've been um Three years, but I've kind of been writing this record for a year and a half or two years, so it was still pretty fresh at the time.
Would you mind telling the story about the bus?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We played a show in Bristol.
It was a Saturday night in Bristol.
I was opening for Morgan and then We decided to leave early so we could get back to town, because Bristol, Tennessee is only like four hours away.
And you gain an hour, so it doesn't feel like you get in quite as late, you know.
So we were 20 miles from town, maybe less.
We were like 15 miles back from town and my tour manager at the time was already sleeping in his bunk and My photographer and I were awake in the front lounge listening to something listening to music and My bus driver pulled over on the side of the road and got he.
He Came and went to the bathroom.
He stayed in there like five minutes, which was really weird, especially being this close to town.
But we didn't, you know, we were drinking.
We didn't really think anything about it.
We were just like, it's kind of weird.
And, um, came out of the bathroom and I was like, Ricky, you good?
And he ignored me, which we were like, what is he?
But he had his Bluetooth thing in.
So we always wonder if he was on the phone.
So I stepped up and I was like, Ricky, you good?
And he's like, yep, all good.
I was like, all right, man.
You know, he'll be there in a minute or whatever, I guess.
And anyway we started going back down the road and then we just just the bus just went off in this like bottom.
We flipped like three times over.
And you're still in the front lounge?
Mm-hmm.
So you're not strapped in at all.
You're... Yeah.
Somebody said like shoes in a washer or shoes in a dryer.
And... So what just... Because you must be sat and then feel the bus.
Well, we felt the rumble strips and then we felt us like going off the road.
Like you know, every now and then your driver will hit like rumble strips and everybody's like oh.
But we felt the left side hit the rumble strips and we knew we were going off the road.
And it just, I don't know what it was, but when it flipped, it got airborne for a second.
I could just, there was a moment of like silence before the thing.
And me and Tanner looked at each other and then just, we both just like, boom.
It was like the hardest force I've ever felt in my life just got thrown to the other side.
And then we both were like instantly knocked out.
So I don't remember anything else, but the way the bus was laying.
It's like if it's driving down the road like this right.
It flipped here and then it flipped here and then it flipped here.
And that's where we like ended, or whatever, but I woke up.
I was the first one to wake up, which sucked.
Uh, and I, my head was like wedged under this, the window, which had busted out.
And, um, and I, there was like glass everywhere.
And there was a piece of glass from the window, like stuck in my head.
And I just had to like pull my head out front of this thing.
And I walked up.
We went down a really steep hill, so I had to walk up.
It wasn't steep like that ceiling by any means, but it was probably a 15-foot hill or whatever.
And it was cold.
It was like 35 degrees.
And I could not flag down a car.
It was like 3 or 4 in the morning.
And so I could not get a car.
I didn't have my phone.
I'm blind without my glasses, so I couldn't see anything.
I thought everybody in the bus was dead because no, everybody was, nobody was conscious.
So I was just helpless.
Like I didn't know what to do.
And so I went back to the bus to try to find my phone, but I couldn't fucking see.
So like, and I didn't have, and I was wearing all black, so I couldn't find anything.
I mean, the bus looked like, it looked like a bomb went off in there.
It was just, it was just, you can't even describe it.
You had to Google it, but, um, but yeah, uh, went back up to the highway.
I'm, I'm in the road.
I had a white circle on my hoodie and I'm in the road, like shaking it and then running to the side.
Nobody would stop.
Um, and then I heard my photographer uh wake up and he was screaming bloody murder.
All this thing.
And And um, and then my tour manager.
Somehow he was blocked in the back, that the door was shut to the.
You know, have you been on a tour bus?
Like, yeah, the doors, you know, so that door was shut.
Somehow he got it open.
And, uh, I mean, he's all banged up and he's like looking at me like you're looking at me right now.
And I was like, I know.
And I was like, we have to have a phone now.
And it was a miracle.
His phone somehow and all of that craziness had gotten from his bunk to the front lounge like slid somewhere.
And it was at the bottom of a pile of like rubble inside the bus.
And the second.
I said we have to get a phone right now.
His alarm to wake up, because we would have gotten back to town went off.
And so I literally reached down and moved all the whatever the hell it was got.
His phone called 911.
We were thankfully one exit away from like a hospital exit.
It was like an exit built for like a big hospital complex.
Ambulance was there in like five minutes.
And yeah, so all that being said.
Rest in peace, Ricky.
Ricky, we we wrecked because he had a brain tumor he didn't know about.
And so he had either an aneurysm or a stroke or a seizure.
It was probably a seizure, because he they sent him to Vanderbilt because they were asking him questions and he didn't know what day it was or where he was.
And they were like, OK, he's had trauma.
We need to get him somewhere.
And they didn't find it for like a week but come to find he had a brain tumor, ended up killing him about a year later.
Tanner broke like every my photographer broke like every bone in his body.
And I just laugh and we can laugh about it now because it was just crazy.
But I remembered seeing his his bone.
He had a compound fracture. that broke the skin.
So he had a bone sticking out of the top of his foot and he kept, he kept telling the uh, we're late.
We're in now we're in the bus and we're helping.
I'm just you know, the ambulance is there and he kept pulling on his bone and he was like there's a stick in my foot.
It's a bone.
But, um, Yeah.
Tanner broke his neck, his ribs, his back, his foot.
He was, I mean, he was so mainly smaller guy.
And um, I uh Noah, the guy in the bunk, he actually turned out the best cause he he didn't.
He was just yeah yeah yeah, exactly.
And he was pretty banged up, but no serious injuries.
And um, I just had a concussion and like a few staples in my head and I fractured my back, but it wasn't even like not very serious.
You know what I mean?
Like I hurt for a couple months.
It's a compression fracture.
So I guess...
When we hit, I think my spine just did like an accordion.
Do you feel a little bit shorter than you did before?
I physically was like a half an inch shorter.
But they missed it in the hospital.
And like a week later, Kat, my wife and I are on a walk.
And I was like, man, I feel this like jolt of just like pain that goes through my body.
And I got, went and got an x-ray and it was like a bunch of square vertebrae.
And then one just looked like that right in the middle.
And they call that a compression fat fracture.
And I said you know I haven't gotten it.
Looked at again but said it takes six, eight months to.
There's nothing you can do.
You just, it kind of gets back to normal and go steady.
But all that being said, um, yeah, it was a very, very, uh, Just unpredictable.
You know, when you think about it, like we weren't, we didn't deal with a drunk driver.
We didn't hit a deer or just, you know what I mean?
We didn't, there wasn't icy.
There was no snow, no bad weather.
It wasn't because he was being negligent.
No, he just he had a brain episode and and it just happened to be then you know I mean it such a freak thing.
Do you think that his trips to the bathroom uh yes, before were early, or there's something going on?
I don't feel.
Yeah sorry, i forgot, i spoke to that.
That's exactly what was happening.
So he was entering into i think it was an aneurysm um, but he had whatever had happened had happened and it was slowly getting worse and worse, or whatever, And it's so funny.
I've heard my dad had a good friend that he used to work.
My dad was a high school referee, football referee and And his one of his best friends had an aneurysm as a referee on the field.
And it was just very similar.
Cause he said, his name was Lewis.
And he said Lewis, they looked over and he was laid out and they just thought he got knocked over by a player.
And he got up and he was like, no, I'm fine.
But every like minute that went by, he was acting crazier and weirder.
And, and then sure enough, he, you know, he almost died, but.
It was a miracle, man.
You should Google, if you Google just like my name in the bus accident, the pictures will come up.
There's one of the inside of the bus.
Look it up.
That's pretty gnarly.
Fuck.
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I'm interested.
First off, I'm really really glad that you guys are all still here, and it feels a lot like a miracle.
Secondly, I've been on a good few tour buses, single deckers to double deckers, especially around Europe.
That's scary, dude.
That would have been different.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But every single time, especially on a double decker, when you're at the front lounge on the top, it's you and a piece of glass, and then just the road right in front of you.
Yeah.
Every single time that I've been on a bus like that that's been moving, there is a bit of me that goes Like in cars you're supposed to have your seatbelt on at all times.
Yeah.
You need to spend a lot of time touring, which means you're going to have to be back in a bus a good bit.
And you would have had to have got back on a bus.
Yeah.
What was the first time that you got back on a tour bus for a long night journey?
Like after that experience?
And sort of how are you now with that?
Um.
This was a journey.
This was like a very long.
So I forgot to mention, but this was three weeks before my wedding.
My wife was on her bachelorette party the last night.
Again, it was three in the morning.
They're in New Orleans.
They're all hammered, having a great time.
I FaceTime her and I'm just like bleeding, bleeding out of my nose and my head.
I just look like you know.
I look like I've been in a car accident and I'm freaking out because I've hit my head really hard and I'm actually pretty with it.
But I just I like a brain injury has always freaked me out.
And I know how that works is.
Sometimes you can hit your head and then you don't know it till like hours later, if you don't go get it checked out and done it at all.
And anyway, so I was like, hey, I like we've been in a bus wreck.
Like, I love you.
I don't know what's going to happen.
We're going to hospital right now.
And so she's freaking out.
So all that because and that's my my number one thought was like, I have to get married.
Like, I literally I have my wedding.
Like, do not fucking, you know, like you're going to be fine.
Don't die before the wedding.
Don't die before the wedding.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So all that being said.
We got married.
We went to, uh, we, the week, like a week or two after that was CMA week, which was very busy.
And it was a time where, which is this, this week is also CMA week.
Uh, I was, I think I'm pretty sure I was like nominated for a lot.
It was a very busy, like a good, like successful week, but I was like a lot going on that week.
With a, Um, bandage wrapped around your head.
Yeah.
I had one, I wouldn't be in my songwriter of the year that year.
Um, just a lot of.
And then, immediately after the like the night of the CMAs, Callie and I, my wife and I, flew to LA to go to Thailand for our honeymoon.
So after the wreck, I never had like a time time to like process it.
It was just like, I got better.
And when I could kind of walk and you know had my head was kind of in good shape, like it was like getting ready for the wedding.
It was like immediately.
So, um that December I played a few shows that were not very long runs, and we took the bus, but I wouldn't go overnight.
I would do it, um, in the morning.
We would leave early in the morning and make that six or seven hour trip.
Just because it's daylight, you're talking to the bus driver.
And that was to make you feel more comfortable?
Yeah.
To avoid the travel anxiety?
Right.
And it was obviously a different driver than the guy I still have now, and he's great.
But there's just something about having the door open to the front and seeing him in there and just know him wearing good hands and all that.
And he's driving like 40 miles an hour on the interstate to make sure we're comfortable.
But, um, it, it was really bad.
Uh, I still just had any sort of bumps or anything.
It was.
It was really tough.
But a year later, uh to the day uh, of the bus accident Out of nowhere, I had a full blown panic attack on the golf course, thinking I was having a heart attack and I've never had one before.
I've had very mild anxiety, mostly hangover induced.
You know what I mean?
Like it's just somewhere I didn't want to be, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But I've never really had like true crippling anxiety that like is real anxiety.
And um, and then the next night I had, I had like two back to back and I was like I don't know what is going on.
And um went to, went to this intensive therapy thing and we kind of dug up the bus and I did a lot of what they call EMDR therapy.
Yep.
And um Man it, since I did that and this other thing at a different facility where they, they like, run these like electrical, like things through your brain and sort of help, sort of center back your thought process or whatever.
And between those two things, I haven't even thought about I think about it, but it's such a distant, not scary memory now.
I really, truly have rewired that.
Logically processed how random and crazy and improbable the.
You know it is to happen again and all that.
So long story, but that's that's that's it took.
A year.
Uh and, and then kind of my brain it sort of you know it all kind of came back cause I never really processed it.
And, but when the weather got cold and the leaves kind of started changing and you know what I mean?
I kind of started associating with, with that time of year again, it just, it came out of me.
It was crazy.
Yeah.
We're here, man.
And I still got a staple that my head swallowed somewhere.
The doctor was like, it's in there, but you'll be all right.
It'll be fine.
You're setting off the metal detectors every time you fly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Every time I get an MRI, I'm like, I'm going to just leave that.
Maybe it'll fly out.
Holy shit, man.
I mean, I was in the only equivalent I have.
When I was 20, I got hit head on by a snowplow at 60 miles an hour.
In a car?
Yeah, I was driving.
So the snowplow sort of listed across into our lane and just clipped us like that far into the car.
But when it's a snowplow, both airbags deployed, windscreen shattered.
It like came down my side.
So the door was up against the sort of side of my shoulder, but the car stayed on the road.
So we just pulled over.
But that moment where you said I looked at my other buddy while it was like during it happening was exactly the same thing.
I looked at my business partner for like a split second, which I can still see, like what that looks like and feels like now.
But the travel anxiety thing, in a much much, much less bad crash than yours with you know I walked away from it.
Um, for three, four months afterward, if I was ever in a Contra flow without a central reservation, cause the side that you drive on and you're on the left side.
Correct.
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes sense.
Okay.
I was trying to figure out how I was like yeah, sorry about that.
Uh, it is the right side of the road though um, the you're.
You are next to cars coming toward you, and that's how.
That's the reason that you drive on that side, so that you know how far you are from other cars, so that it's not on the off side, so that you don't accidentally clip someone.
That makes sense.
But and it's the same here right, just other side of the road, you're still on the inside, right against the traffic that's coming that way.
Yeah, but what that means is you've got, you know, vehicles that are sometimes only four feet away from you are going in, and that's just how people drive.
That's how the roads work.
But that made me feel, uh, that made me feel very, very anxious.
And given the fact that that was me from an incident way less. yeah it must be the fact that you've done the emdr and whatever that um like electrodes yeah i know exactly what you're talking about they do it at ways to well in austin um that's a real credit to the effectiveness of those sorts of treatments totally for overcoming that because that's now liberated you to be able to go back and do your thing yes totally How much worse would your quality of life be if you hadn't gone through, you'd still be random panic attacks with fucking, Oh, here comes October, November again, like ready for the golf course panic attack to happen.
Dude.
And the thing is, is like it, there were so many thoughts.
Cause like that happened.
And then that panic kind of for some reason had it was like It all just sort of came back and I was like I'm not going to be able to tour anymore.
What am I going to do?
I don't even know who I am.
My brain is in a completely horrible place, and I rely on touring.
I mean, it was a mess for a second, but I got it fixed really quick.
Do you think vulnerability...
And talking about emotions is becoming more acceptable in male artists now?
I think so.
And I hope that it gets better.
You know, I don't think that anybody that that talks about that is considered soft by any means.
And I know a lot of.
I've talked to a lot of artists, very successful artists that deal with their.
They're just like man.
My anxiety has been so bad recently.
And I just, I wish the more public you can make it.
And the more like people that can openly share that they deal with stuff.
Then, like the next time you're going through something, you know if you're in an award show or something, you can just go find your buddy and be like Hey, I'm freaking out.
You know what I mean?
Like just the more acceptable it is.
I feel like a lot of a big part of depression and anxiety.
Um, that makes it worse.
Or or um yeah, that makes it worse is the shame that comes with it, because it's you're not, it's not supposed to be okay, or or you're considered weak or whatever, or an inconvenience or whatever that may be.
And I just think the more open especially men are about their mental health, the less the more that the shame and the guilt and the burden and all that will just sort of go away, especially with artists.
I mean, we're not, we're not human beings.
We're not designed to be famous.
Uh, we weren't designed to, uh, just to travel and to especially artists.
We weren't designed to like.
Experience insane levels of serotonin and adrenaline three nights in a row, four or five nights in a row.
Sometimes uh There's, there's a lot that.
That's that.
You know.
People are going to roll their eyes.
I know.
And just be like, well, grasses must be nice, blah, blah, blah.
But man, it's just, it's a mental thing that you go through that, like you know.
It's just, it's different.
It's just, I don't think that our brains are wired to experience some of the stuff that that that singers or anybody anybody that's a public figure experiences and and uh, can take a toll on you man male female, whatever age, whatever this episode is brought to you by momentous if your sleep's been off, taking ages to fall asleep, waking up at random times, feeling groggy in the morning.
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I've heard you say country boys feel everything.
They just don't talk about it.
Yeah, that's true.
Just bury it deep on down.
That's the philosophy.
My grandfather used to say, talking about my grandmother, she'd have a bad day, and he would just say oh, she's got that damn depression again.
Like it was a, like it was a flare up, you know, like it was a rash or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The pollen count is high today.
The depression count is high today.
Damn depression again.
Fuck.
Well, yeah, I think so.
I think especially in the country, people just didn't have time.
They didn't have the, uh, I don't know.
It was like, it was like, you just, you, Yeah, kind of like there's no time to worry about that.
We've got to figure out how to make a living and whatever that may be.
That's an interesting point.
And I guess ties into what you said about the bus story, that if you're super busy, if you've got lots to do, if there's tasks to be completed, you can pretty easily sort of suppress that and hide away.
Little whispers yeah distractions, fleeting thoughts, well i mean.
Yeah sure, maybe i get a little anxious on the bus, but i've got the show to play tonight and it's sort of the uh underlying emotion is swept away by a much bigger emotion sure, which is the dopamine, the serotonin, the adrenaline, all that stuff.
Um, But I do think, certainly in the music industry, on that ascendancy thing, people can hide the emotions that they should be paying a lot of attention to with the energy and the adoration.
I mean, I'm on tour at the moment.
I played the Cannery in Nashville this week.
I did Boston, Chicago, Nashville, back to back to back.
So three shows, three states, three days this week and um some, something that happens at the first show by the third show.
You can't even remember that's happened.
Yeah, like where the?
I i accidentally called?
Oh no, i accidentally called uh, nashville.
Sorry, i called chicago.
La way deep into the show and said it was a monday and then said it was a saturday and it wasn't, it was a friday.
And i'm like It happens, man.
It kills your memory.
And it one thing I don't like, uh that I I wish I was better at, but also it just it's so hard as uh you can have a cool moment or experience or have cool conversation with a fan you know at a place.
And then the next time you see them, it's they're devastated that you don't remember.
You know what?
And it's like, I'm so sorry.
And they're like, no, we talked about like my dead mom or so, you know what I mean?
Something really sad.
And like, you don't remember.
And it's just, it's, it's hard to remember when you're just gone.
And I have a friend.
I have a friend who's hack for that is whenever he meets anybody.
This is a bit of a cheap trick, but whenever he meets anybody he says have we met before?
And if you haven't, they go no but, and he's like I swear I must've got you mixed up for him to do it the other way.
Cause, for I guess if you're deeper into your touring career and you're like you know maybe 50 or 25 of the people you have met, they're like Yeah.
Oh my God.
And they go back home and they're like, oh yeah, I totally remember this.
Yeah, I know.
It is a cheap friend.
But if you know, like if I did that, and then somebody was like yeah, we talked about so-and-so, then I would remember.
Yes.
But it's just that like the face and the, yeah.
I had a.
So James, my business partner in Eutonic this, this thing, we both played the Apollo in London, three and a half thousand people.
We both sold it out separately.
Get that in Eutonic.
That'll fuel the rest of the day.
Um, uh, he, uh, he played the same show as me separate a couple of years before.
And we were messaging about it the other day and we were talking about this like what's happening on tour.
And he was like, dude, I played the biggest show of my life.
Sold out three and a half thousand people in my home country.
He's like, I couldn't tell you anything about what happened.
I can't tell you anything.
I can kind of remember walking out and I've got all the photos and But I remember my show through the lens of the photographer and the videographer.
Now,
It's like I don't remember it from my own eyes.
And it's this really interesting paradox that I've never thought about before until starting to do this.
When you're in a flow state, which is what everybody's supposed to want to get into, you're really unconscious, right?
Like stuff's just happening.
You know, you're set, you've dialed it in.
You're halfway through the tour.
Like everything's locked and you forget what you're doing and it's really enjoyable.
But in this weird way, you're not there.
You're not, you weren't there.
Yeah.
You weren't there for it.
Yeah.
Like it just happened.
Have you seen that movie soul?
No.
Is that, that's the Disney one.
Yeah.
And he's a piano player and he dies and he goes to like this purgatory thing.
Yeah.
There's one, there's a, there's one little section of this like in between heaven kind of thing that they go to and it's all these people doing like weird tasks and he's like what is that?
And he, they're all like they're in the zone.
So it's like they're, you know that's.
It's like their soul is like and the place is called the zone and it's like a one guy's just a sign spinner on the street, you know, but one guy could be a guitar player or whatever it is, but it's, it's the flow state.
It's like their body is on earth but like their soul, you know they're.
They're in that different, different world, like a different place.
Isn't that strange though, that the thing that you want to do most in the place that you want to get to as a performer is the point where you make the fewest memories?
Like you're not there. for it yeah it's just it's a complete paradox dude it's just as well that we've the moments you want to remember the most are like are those but it's the but the the mindset you want to be in is the same as is that yeah that's insane yeah yeah the best moments of your career are the ones that you remember the least yeah isn't that wild yeah it sucks dude It's crazy.
Well, I mean fortunately, I was going to say you live with like a million cameras around you which uh, which helps.
But yeah, there's a bit of a.
There's a bit of a uh melancholy.
I, even I've had that right.
Uh, looking back and I go, was I there?
And then there's a bit of guilt.
I'm like, should I, I should have been more present.
Yeah.
Maybe I should have been more present.
You go, well, what's your job?
Is your job to be there and to be present?
Or is your job to put on a good show for the fucking three and a half thousand people that have paid to come and see you?
Right.
Um, yeah.
And do your job, be a professional.
Yep.
It's a strange one, dude.
It's a battle.
It's a battle, man.
I just, yeah, I feel like the, I don't know.
I approach a lot of, especially my singing career, because of how it came together, like very randomly, that I just I don't put a lot of pressure on myself to I don't know.
I just approach it very lightly and I'm just like dude, I'm so lucky to be here that just I don't know.
I just approach everything that comes with that just lightly and everything is.
I used to be very proud and all that, but I just try to think.
You know, this is none, of this is a big deal.
And, but not, and I just been like, um, you know, I don't know.
I've always just thought like, man, these people you're playing for are just people.
And you were just a dude and you're, still are, but like you, got lucky with your, your record deal and your artist career and never really planned on doing that.
So why not just enjoy it and, and try not to beat yourself up.
But there's definitely times where I, you know, like I'll do something.
And then be like, did I soak in enough of that?
It's funny.
There's a festival in Michigan.
Brian O'Connell, I hope you watch this because you need to hear this.
It was called Faster Horses, a Live Nation festival.
And it was by far, I played it twice, and it was the greatest crowd I've ever played for.
And they canceled it.
And the last time I played it, I remembered it and it was great, but I just always assumed that we would be back.
And it was like I'm talking like nothing will ever ever ever ever, ever beat it, unless we went back there.
Like it just will not happen.
And then they canceled it probably forever.
And it just like, that sucks.
And it's like, that's a moment where I beat myself up.
Cause I was like man, we just Got off stage and just had a few beers and went to bed, like you know, like we should have celebrated that more or enjoyed that moment a lot more.
Done something because, had we known it was going to be canceled, you know we would have really soaked that moment in.
Dude, that's life.
Yeah.
That's life.
Yeah.
Right.
Yep.
You don't know the last time that you're going to bounce your daughter on your knee.
Oh, Donnie, I can't even think about it.
You don't know the last time that you're going to hug your grandmother.
You don't know the last time that you're going to get to play a live show.
You don't know the last time that you're going to get to be with that bus driver.
And the assumption that we always have more is why we don't realize that stuff is slipping away from us during the time.
But on the flip side, I think being gentle with yourself of you don't know what the future holds.
You don't know what's going to happen next.
Everybody experiences that the exact same, I think too.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I should have been more present.
I should have remembered it more.
I should have treated it with more divinity or sacredness or care and attention.
And, uh, It's only in retrospect.
I should have, as soon as you say, I should, it's like, yeah, but you didn't, and you didn't know.
And there's nothing you can do about it.
And if you could have done, you'd have gone and said to the bus driver let's just put whatever like the I should, I should, I should.
Yeah.
Ladies and gentlemen, Hardy.
I appreciate the fact.
Thank you so much, man.
It was a great, great conversation.
This is ruled.
Uh, what's next?
Where are you on tour?
What's coming up?
Yeah.
Country country tour starts in Canada in February.
Apparently that's the time to go.
Cause they're bored to death.
Country country tour Canada in February.
Um, I've got the Hardy fund.
Uh, best way to do it is just Google the Hardy fund.
Um, and, uh, you can donate to that.
It's my, my wife and I's charity that we're really excited about.
Just, um, yeah.
Country country and country, country, country, the album and the deluxe album.
And that's it.
Fuck yeah.
Yeah, got some other stuff that I can't talk about yet, but super excited about.
But yeah, I'm excited.
Appreciate you, man.
Thank you so much.
If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom reading list.
It is 100 books that you should read before you die.
The most interesting, life-changing, and impactful books.
That's chriswillx.com slash books.
