This is episode 419 with national champion, Olympic trials qualifying steeplechaser, and member of the new pro team Meridia, Annie Rodenfels.
Welcome to the Strength Running Podcast.
We surround you with the same experts as pro runners, so keep listening to hear coaches, Physical therapists, strength experts, dieticians, sports psychologists, and other thought leaders give you the best guidance possible to take your running I'm your host, Coach Jason Fitzgerald.
I'm a former cross country and track athlete for Connecticut College.
I've been coaching runners since 2010, and I used to write for Trail Runner Magazine and Runner's World.
Today, I'm the head coach of Strength Running, host of this podcast, and I work with a small handful of startups in the running space.
You can learn more about me and Strength Running at strengthrunning.com.
Well my friends I have seen better days.
If you saw my recent Instagram story you'll know that I look like I got in a fight.
I was playing wiffle ball with my son and he drilled a wiffle ball straight into my face.
So, My right cheek is the size that my head used to be.
But thankfully, I don't need stitches, and my eye was spared, even though I have an amazing black eye right now.
So I'll be fully recovered very soon. And even though it hurts to talk a little bit, the show must go on. big thank you to everyone who reached out.
I'm okay. I'll be fine. And hopefully my face looks pretty again soon.
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My guest today is professional athlete, Andrea Rodenfels.
Annie is one of the few pro runners to come from a division three background.
And as a steeplechaser, no less. Now as a fellow D3 steeplechaser myself, I am biased toward people like Annie.
She's climbed the ranks and is now at the top, an incredible accomplishment for anyone.
She notched three national championships in college in both a steeplechase and 5,000 meters while setting the D3 national record in the steeplechase.
Since then, Annie has won the 2022 BAA Invitational Mile and she became the 2023 usa track and field 5k national champion The 2024 Drake Relays 3000 meter steeplechase winner while also qualifying for two Olympic trials.
In this conversation, we're focusing on her path to elite performances, how she trains today, how she approaches double workouts on the same day. how she manages an 8.30 p.m. race, and a lot more.
Without further delay, please enjoy my conversation with Annie Rodenfels.
Hey, Annie, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me, Jason.
Well, you have just been on a tear the last couple years, winning national championships. qualifying for the Olympic trials.
You're a multiple all American. You just signed with Solomon too, uh, as a new sponsor.
Uh, Annie, you've made it. How are you feeling with your just blossoming, amazing running career so far?
Good. Yeah, no, I mean, I feel like I've...
I knew I had what it takes to be a professional runner at times when maybe I think other people probably wouldn't have thought that, but I definitely did not think I would be at the level that I'm at.
Um, probably ever, um, especially not in those early days of like being a semi-pro.
So it's exciting to make it here. Gotta keep pushing and keep working on working towards more, but it's also nice to be like, If I stopped being a professional runner today, I feel like, I mean, there's things I still want to do and I wouldn't be happy with like certain times I haven't reached or whatever, but I'd be very happy with like how far I made it.
And yeah, just the opportunities that I've had.
So it's pretty awesome. special and you know i have to admit i i do have a little bit of a soft spot for d3 steeplechasers because i i used to be one myself And you're one of the few D3 runners to then be able to go on and run professionally.
Um, is there a future for you as a steeplechaser or do you see yourself moving into other events?
Yeah, I'll probably come back to the steeplechase.
I feel like... The issue since I've been semi-professional and professional is I haven't had a coach who's been able to coach me in it.
And I mean, really only in college, my head coach, Coach Owens was a great coach.
Didn't know that much about steeple, like knew enough to help with it.
And then my sophomore year, when I first started getting really good, I had a specific coach that was helping me in it.
And he was only there for a year. So I just really haven't had any coach that's going to help me.
And just in going so much faster over the barriers, my hurdle form is has deteriorated.
It actually used to be not great, but a little better in college, ironically.
Um, I wasn't stuttering half as much. Um, And so just with that increase in speed, I just have not been able to really translate the hurtling to being okay again.
It's just really bad. And so now that I have Julie.
I'm joining a team with steeplechasers. I'm hoping to kind of get the help that I need. and to race it again.
And I could race it with like the form I have now, I just, I get a lot of anxiety doing it.
I know that I'm like impeding other people's process.
I get a lot of hate for it. And so it's just very stressful for me.
So I love the steeplechase. I think I could still. whip out a really good time in it, but I'm kind of looking for a little bit of help and aid so that I can return back to it.
Yeah. Yeah, the steeplechase is wild. It's like the original obstacle course race of the track and field world.
You know, let me ask you something, because I was watching recently a steeplechase race.
I forget exactly where it was, but it was world-class female runners doing the steeplechase.
And very few of them had great hurdle form.
And I don't know if that's because even at world-class levels, steeplechase times, it's still not that fast compared to like the 400 meter hurdles or something like that.
Like, what is the pro-level consensus on hurdle form when it comes to the steeple?
Because it is a little... I would say maybe confusing looking at, you know, some of these best steeplechasers in the world and they're doing this weird little hop over the barrier.
I think it depends on who you ask. I would say in America, I feel like the consensus is the American women that are at the top are very good.
Emma Coburn has like very, very flawless, impeccable form.
And I would say a lot of the other people who are running that fast do.
Once you get outside of America, especially with the Ethiopians and Kenyans who are just so fast.
I don't know that they really care if they're, I mean, it's also very efficient to be jumping over them with both legs the way they're doing.
Um, but I don't know if they really care if like, they're not, they don't look like the best hurdler because they're just so fast.
Um, I kind of feel like the Americans feel like in order to keep up with them, maybe we need to also have good hurdle form.
So I don't know if that's why the hurdle form in America And probably the European countries too, but I don't really pay attention as much to them, is such a thing of like, oh, you have to have good form.
And maybe that's just also been the precedent of like some of the people who have been so good have just happened to have very, very good hurdle form.
Yes, the intricacies of global steeplechase hurdle culture here.
Oh, yeah. So you said something interesting earlier.
You said, you know, my earlier time as a semi-pro runner, now you're a pro runner.
I'd love to spend a couple minutes talking about how you made the jump to being a pro runner.
This is one of the hardest sports ever. to become a professional in.
And I'm just always curious about the journey.
Like, how do you go from a D3 college runner to... a sponsored runner on a pro team you know kind of graduated from that semi-pro level So mine was like, I ran D3.
I was at the very end of my time, not all of D3, not all of my college time, but like the last year.
I was probably the best distance runner in division three on the female side.
And so then I graduated, but I still didn't have, you know, In my steeplechase I could perform with some of the D1 kids, but like my 5K wasn't anywhere. really that close at the time to like, I probably wouldn't have made nationals in D1 or anything like that.
It's like, just no one knows. They don't care.
Your times aren't that good. No one's going to sign you.
So at that time I joined a, I would say a semi-pro team.
Um, and I would, I would call it semi-pro because I wasn't making money off of being on the team.
There's like some benefits to being on the team.
Like I got some ASICS gear and I got free housing.
But I wasn't getting any sort of income from being on the team.
A6 wasn't paying me any sort of income. And I would say that for me personally, the reason I was able to make the jump was just I had not been training at a high level for long enough that there was still a lot of. space for me to get better.
And that's what happened. Just because I got started running so late, and really didn't understand consistent training until Probably my sophomore year of college was the first time that I started like actually running every day and not taking huge breaks off from running and not skipping runs because I just didn't feel like it.
Um, I was just so new to it that I still had, it was kind of like I was like a high school runner in terms of like how much better I could get.
And so I just kept chipping away at that chipping away at it.
And with the opportunities that I had did.
Well enough and ran good enough times that I was able to then make the jump, join a professional team in Boston and get paid to do that.
Um, and then I've just continued to try to get better and find ways to get better and improve my times and not only improve my times, but like compete when it matters.
Um, because that's a big time. I mean, that's a, that's an important thing too.
There's a lot of pro runners who probably have slightly faster times than I do.
And guaranteed not all those people on the track are also doing the roads, but I feel like I've also been successful because I've found.
I've taken the opportunities and taking them to like, to win them instead of just like, oh, I just do track and I ran a sub 15.
I also try to go out and like actually win races.
And I think that's a factor too, because there's, yeah, there's lots of people now, unfortunately, that can also run 15 flat.
So... Yeah. Are there any races that you've won or placed highly in that you think were... instrumental in you kind of making that jump to pro level?
Is it, you know, you're probably not going to get it by winning the local 5k down the street.
Not really. I mean, I would say I did qualify for the last Olympic trials, not the one in 2024, but what, 2022, right?
2021? 2021, I think. Yeah, because it was three years.
I did qualify for that one. My old team, I just...
I would say I did well with the opportunities that I had, but there weren't many.
They weren't really taking me to a ton of the higher level professional meets.
I was just doing you know, the slightly more competitive, like South Carolina meets our competitive or like when there happened to be a race, that came around town or like within a few hours distance that like had professionals, I would go to that.
But I wouldn't say that the ones I was winning were really putting me on anyone's radar.
I think it was just my times and probably the fact that I had qualified for the Olympic trials.
I did horrible at the last Olympic trials, not this past one, but two years ago. or two times ago, but I had qualified.
So I think that counts for something. For sure.
I think it puts you in another level of, you know, track competitor.
And now you are you're in Boston. You're on a pro team. but you are about to be on a new pro team.
You know, I just had Colleen Quigley on the show.
We talked a little bit more about her new pro team, Meridia.
What's that like? I mean, is this just like one of these additional opportunities you get for getting that extra support you think you need to get to the next level.
I mean, that's actually... super encouraging, right?
To kind of know that you almost didn't take your training seriously until roughly halfway through college, because that just means you have a lot more progress to make.
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'm probably starting to kind of level that out a little bit When I used to race, I used to PB like literally every single time for probably like five or six years.
That definitely doesn't happen anymore. And I miss that.
But yeah, I think with Meridia, it's just... an opportunity that looks similar, I think, to the other teams in our existence, but also very, very different. when you go and sign, like I signed my individual deal with Solomon and you know, it's amazing because it gives me the opportunity to do whatever I want for four years and be coached by whomever I want and the resources to kind of allow me to do that.
And that's super great. I also knew I wanted That's something that I have loved having in the past.
I've loved feeling like not only am I working towards my dreams, but I'm maybe helping others work towards theirs.
Running just feels very selfish at times.
And so like if, Even if it's a small thing of like, oh, well, I paced this workout that we all had to do and like it helped them have an easier day and maybe get better and feel like people are doing alongside you.
Um, it just feels a little bit more fulfilling.
So plus you get a lot better with teammates.
So I wanted that, but, um, Yeah, so Meridia kind of offered this new thing of, I can... kind of make the support team that I want and that I need, especially as I get older and I want to prioritize other things and I want...
I want the freedom to not go to my coach and say, hi, my husband and I are going on vacation.
Is that okay? I want to be able to do what I want. you know, prioritize different parts of the year with like what I want to do and, and, you know, the races I want to do, but I also wanted still the support of a team and team members and, and kind of working towards a collective good.
And Meridia offered me that. So to me, it just made sense.
It was very... awesome and I'm very excited to get out there and train with them because right now I'm on the team but I'm here training alone um so I haven't I haven't gotten to see that come to fruition yet but um Yeah, I think it's a great opportunity and I think it's a really good idea that Colleen had of just like kind of seeing the gap. in kind of the landscape of like pro running teams and trying to fill that.
So. Yeah, I want to talk a little bit more about why you want to be on a team so badly.
Because I've talked to runners who say, I don't need any motivation.
I'm driven myself. I'm intrinsically motivated, which arguably is the best kind of motivation to have.
Yet nevertheless, every single pro runner that I've ever talked to is adamant that group training is kind of the only way to really see your potential to fully succeed and express what you can do in the sport.
You know, like right now you're training alone.
You've had experience training with a team soon.
You're going to be joining a different team.
Can you talk a little bit about kind of the major differences for you with training with a group and then just kind of training by yourself?
Even as like a driven pro athlete, you probably don't need anyone dragging you out of bed for your easy run in the morning.
So why do you need the team? No, I don't.
I would say a lot of my career, too, just honestly since high school has been training alone.
Um, I trained alone, a little, a little bit of high school track.
I did. I was the only distance runners by myself, got used to that. went to college and did have training partners, but then at the end would train with the boys.
So most of the time was with them, but to be honest, a lot of them sometimes drop out of workouts and sometimes weird about me running with them on easy runs.
Like, you know, there's long periods of my time as a runner where I've trained alone.
So I don't have an issue with it. But me personally, I'm a very big extrovert.
I like having other people there. I've now trained by myself here in Boston for the past year.
And it's just like, it just sucks. Like that's when that's all I'm doing.
And then I go home and unless my husband is home working remotely, I'm home alone then for the rest of the day. it just makes me not like running as much.
And I very, very much love running, but I also love seeing people and socializing.
Um, And so I think like being around people and, you know, you can always find people to run with like that aren't professional runners and that's awesome and great.
But being around people that are just working towards similar goals as yourself, even if you aren't doing the same workout is just...
Um, yeah, it's just like a different environment and it kind of gets you more amped up and more pumped and feels less selfish, like I was saying, like you'd be like, oh, like so-and-so ran this in the workout today.
Like, that's awesome. Even if maybe you had a shit workout.
But yeah, I also think like when it comes to your individual strengths and weaknesses, teammates can help so much.
Um, so like, you know, I know my strength is maybe tempo runs and I can do that all day, every day by myself.
I don't need someone, but maybe when it comes to like a lot of speed stuff, I'm okay.
But I would be running, you know, one to two seconds faster for 400 if I had someone there who specializes in that, like Sky does.
And that's just like a huge thing is to have someone else pushing you and get more out of you.
Plus it's more like a race. Um, when you're working out with people.
Cause like I'm super great at controlling the pace.
I love being in the front of races. When I'm in control, I'm happy.
But like when I'm working out by myself all the time, I'm always in control.
Like I'm in control of how every rep goes.
But then suddenly when you're working with people, it's like, oh, they may feel great and you may feel like shit.
And you kind of have to adjust to that, which is also more like a race.
So I just I think there's a ton of benefits to it.
Yeah, you know, I just had Kira D'Amato on the podcast and she was saying one of the pieces of advice she has for... from new runners or like younger high school runners is that if you start not feeling great in a workout, the best thing you can do is start cheering on your teammates and it lifts everyone up, including yourself.
That was certainly something I experienced on a team.
It's like, you want the people there who maybe are a little bit faster than you to kind of pull you along, but there's also value in you pulling others along and sort of like you are both being pulled and you're doing some pushing yourself.
And that is like the perfect combination of giving and receiving and it creates such a wonderful environment for performance, but also, you know, just feeling connected to your teammates and helping them accomplish those big goals too.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big proponent of, of training with people and yeah, like helping other people.
Like, and I'm a super competitive person.
Like of course, you know, if I'm training with someone who's my competition, like on race day, of course I want to beat them, but that doesn't have to be, you know every other day we can help each other work towards our goals and i still want them to do well and if they beat me i'll be like okay fine but you know as someone who's a competitor i still very much value like working with other people and training with other people.
Cause it just, you know, a rising tide lifts all boats.
Like everyone's going to do better. Yeah, and a related aspect to this is with you joining Colleen Quigley's team, Meridia, Colleen is really great at thinking big and really...
I've heard this from multiple people. I get the sense from her speaking to her that She's a big picture thinker.
She likes to take big swings at things. This is why she's starting this whole new team.
So I just think it's such a wonderful environment for the growth of the sport.
And, you know, hopefully with, you know, someone who started the team, also a steeplechaser, that'll maybe push you in the direction of the steeplechase a little bit. me selfishly just wanting more steeplechase in my life.
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. We haven't talked about it.
But knowing Colleen and how just like, eager she is to help with literally anything.
And she's just proved to be such a resource already.
And like, I've only known her for I guess we've like technically known each other for like a year and a half.
Like I've really only been talking to her since like October, you know, consistently.
I mean, I feel like she'll just do anything she can to help anyone on the team and really anyone in general, um, be successful.
So like, that's a huge resource to me as well, just with, um, Yeah, her storied success in Steeplechase.
Yeah, I know. She's such a... an asset to the running community, I think.
And if any of our listeners want to support uh, the Meridia team, I believe the Meridia mile is still open for registration.
So, uh, check out the link in the description.
You can sign up for a virtual mile. I'm someone who's always encouraging middle distance racing.
Cause I just think it's, it's, developmentally appropriate for so many runners.
Let's talk a little bit about your training, Annie, because I'm really curious, like how you set things up.
I do have a very specific question about your training soon, but Broad picture, what does your training kind of look like these days from...
How many workouts a week you do? Do you do any cross training?
What kind of how broad strokes? What does it look like?
Yeah, so mileage. So I just started working with Julie Benson in May.
Um, it's not a huge change. She really looked at the stuff I'd been doing before.
You know, it's been very like collaborative of not collaborative in terms of me running the workouts because she knows I don't want to do that.
I just want her to give it to me and me turn my brain off. but collaborative in terms of her saying like, what do you normally like to do for mileage?
And so we've pretty much been doing what I said, which was I like 80 miles plus or minus five.
So, you know, anywhere from 75 to 85 in the fall, I did a lot of 90 and I thought that was great, but I don't really need that.
I think in the track season. So it was just kind of, That's like running a lot of miles for not really any purpose.
So right now we're doing about that. I do anywhere from two to three workouts a week, depending on if she has me do a double threshold or not. which we've been doing interchangeably.
So if I don't have one, it's two. It's usually, depending on my schedule, either Tuesday, Friday. occasionally Wednesday, Sunday, or sorry, Wednesday, Saturday.
And if I do a double threshold, then it's like two on Tuesday or Wednesday.
And then I'm usually like, more of a speed based workout on either Friday or Saturday.
Um, so yeah, in between that, I do probably two doubles a week, a long run, pretty basic. medium long run in the middle of the week after the workout.
Um, I haven't been doing it as much recently, just with everything going on and just like adjusting to a new training schedule.
But I do do usually two lifts a week. Right now, I'm the one writing those, but I've had Morgan Eusini as a training coach in the past when I was on the BAA, so it's very much based off of what she has given me in the past because she's so good at it.
Um, so I'm, I'm writing them, but I'm really just stealing Morgan's ideas and reworking them a little bit.
Um, but yeah, no cross training. I've never been a cross trainer. except for when I'm injured, so pretty basic.
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Yeah, broad strokes does sound like a solid training.
I remember when I was... In peak training myself, I think the 80 miles a week was my sweet spot too.
I tended to break at 90 and 70 didn't really feel like enough to make me feel really strong.
What do your long runs look like? I'm curious.
Do you do long run workouts or is it just strictly mileage?
How do you execute those? Um, with Julie's training, it's mostly, well, actually in the past I'll say I've only really done just a straight long run.
Julie will occasionally throw in like the smallest bit of workout at the end and workout is not even really the right term.
It's like. The last four miles, I push slightly every half mile and that's it.
And I don't think she ever really wants me to get down that much.
I feel like I get down... faster than she is expecting.
I feel like she expects me to only get down like six minutes and I usually end up going like 545 on accident because I get a little too crazy.
But yeah, usually it's, it's just for mileage.
I've was running usually like 17. And then when she started coaching me, it's been more like, 15, but we've also been in just heavier track season.
So again, just not really a need to go run 17 or 18 miles. straight, especially when you're hitting your mileage.
Yeah. And you're racing soon. So I assume that your training probably is a little bit more speed oriented these days with a little bit less mileage. and your long run is likely taking a hit.
Yeah, I mean, right now I'm literally in the beginning. middle, I don't know what part of the taper.
So yeah, I did like 13 miles and that was, I did it like two days ago and then I had an off day, which I usually don't take.
So Yeah, very much in the taper, in the taper mode.
Yeah, well, give us a little preview. You are tapering for...
I am tapering for the US Track and Field Outdoor Championship.
That's very exciting. What will you be competing in?
The 5K, which is on the last day on Sunday at 2.30 Eugene time.
That's very exciting. I do have to ask you an offbeat question here.
I also have a couple PRs like this. How obnoxious is it that your 5K PR is is 1500.64 and not 1459.99 is that does that wear on you a little bit Oh my God, it is the bane of my existence.
I have been trying to break. 15, I guess for like two years now.
I never thought that'd be my goal. I went out.
My PB was 1525 at the time. No, 1535. Randomly ran 1508.
And once I got wrapped my brain around the idea, I ran 1508 and like, Oh my God, like 2022.
Ever since then, I've been like, okay, well, you know, my goal isn't 1505.
It's like to break 15. Um, and I ran low 15 on the track multiple times.
On the roads, I've ran low 15. I think technically I've broken 15 in a downhill 6K on the roads.
It has just eluded me. So the fact that it is 15 flat 0.64 drives me up a wall.
I think about it constantly. On runs, I'm thinking about it.
My shoe was untied for two miles of that race.
So I just like, in my head, I'm like, if my shoe had been tied, I would have broken 15.
So, yeah, it is extremely annoying. Oh, man.
I feel your pain. I understand. I really hope that you can rectify the situation soon at USA's.
I think that would be a good result for everyone.
Yeah. One of the things that I wanted to ask your opinion on is, you know, you're training for the 5K. you are running about 80 miles a week.
You're doing a long run 15-ish miles during peak training, maybe a little bit more earlier.
A lot of runners might say that that is a tremendous amount of volume and mileage for a race that's relatively short.
What might you say to that? Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on who you're saying is saying this, because I feel like.
All the other pro runners that I'm racing are also doing that.
So to me, it's not crazy at all. There's people probably in my 5K who probably run 100 miles a week.
There could be some that run like 70, maybe 60, but like on the professional level, like that's just how it's getting to be.
Maybe if it's like a person who's not a professional runner and is just like an everyday runner and they're like, why?
I don't know, like over time, I've just adjusted to, you know, running 50 miles a week to where that wasn't really doing it anymore.
So like in order to get better. kind of one of the fastest ways within reason is to add more miles.
Um, at a certain point that stops working, but I think, you know, especially when you're a high level. runner and you're going out of college. getting to be a little older your body can handle a little bit more it's just like a really easy way to get better and like it's not all junk miles either it's not like Oh, well now I'm running seven mile doubles.
It's like your workouts become longer. Um, And you get stronger from doing these longer reps and longer workouts.
And then when you're stronger, it actually helps you be a better 5k runner as long as at the very end right before you can kind of optimize the speed as well.
So I mean, it's just kind of how it is if you want to be a distance runner.
Yeah. If you want to do five hair, 10 can be competitive at any level. whether that be just like United States or like global, it's just, it's becoming more and more expected that you're doing, you know?
I even think we can maybe divorce it from you being a pro runner.
And what you said earlier, you said, I got used to running 50 miles a week And then that stopped cutting it.
What you were basically saying was that to continue improving, I needed to do something better. more, some new stimulus in there.
And one of the quickest ways to do that was just to increase your mileage.
Yeah. I think you've done a good job of finding the mileage level that is what we might call, quote unquote, enough.
But that also works for you personally. And that's that kind of 75 to 85 level.
I know you said you were running 90. Do you tend to get hurt when you try to... do more miles?
Or is this just like you're too fatigued?
You're flirting with some burnout? Like what happens if you try to get beyond 90?
The, um, I, so 90 was, you know, previous to this, I'd probably been running on average 70 to 75 in seasons previously.
So a year from now about that's how much I was doing.
And I was just honestly coaching myself thought, why not?
I'll try it. And it was fine. I didn't, I didn't get injured.
Um, I mean, potentially I think early this, so that was like the fall, fall stopped doing that probably like December. once indoor track season started.
And it's just, it's kind of impossible to get 90 miles and be doing like real speed oriented stuff, which is what I did for a short time in indoor.
And then I guess like, You know, I did feel like I was getting very fatigued maybe after indoor season, but I also had an iron issue.
So that could be related to maybe, you know, doing 90 miles a week for tons of time, but I felt great off of it.
Honestly, I felt very strong. That's pretty much what I ran my 15 flat.
0.64 off of with very little like speed stuff.
So I had no issue with it. I just don't think that I need it to run a good track race.
And as much as I do like get caught up on things, I can also like take a step back and be like, If you don't need to be running 90 miles a week, if I know I can perform very well running 80, I'm not going to risk anything and try to just do 90 just to tell people that I'm doing 90. unless there's some integral part of your training that is getting you to 90.
Most of my training was just like, I was just going a little longer in workouts, maybe 10 by K.
12 by K eight mile tempos. And then everything else like to get to 90, I was just doing longer, long runs and like bigger doubles and like, It was great because it definitely like added a lot of strength.
But like once you build that strength, I didn't need to do it to be successful in my track season to run a 5K, especially because I had no plans. to run a 10K on the track this year.
So it just wasn't necessary. So I don't want to flirt with like getting injured or anything like that.
I think that's a really healthy perspective just to understand that while you can benefit from it, you don't necessarily need it all the time.
You know, like you have that nuanced perspective on it where, yes, you recognize its benefits, but it's not the end all be all.
Your goal as a runner is not to run 90 miles a week.
It's to run fast races. Exactly. Yeah. I'd love to talk about some of your workouts, because you definitely posted an interesting one on Instagram that I came across that I wanted to ask you about.
You also mentioned doing double threshold workouts.
What are your double threshold workouts look like?
Yeah, I would say I was doing some double threshold myself. in the fall when I was coaching myself and I would say it was not double threshold at all.
I would say I was doing two hard workouts a day and I thought it was going to be harder.
And I was like, this is easy. I can do this.
And now that I have Julie, which is the reason why I have a coach.
And someone to kind of rein me in. And again, just because I can do it doesn't mean I should.
My double thresholds, I'd say, are like a true double threshold.
So, you know. Five by mile at a true threshold pace.
And then some 400s in the evening, also at threshold pace.
The difference when I was doing it myself was I found I could do five by K at faster than threshold pace, like 307. you know, kind of mess around.
And then I would come back in the evening and do 400s, but I'll do 400 that like, definitely not threshold pace at all.
Just like, not the hardest 400 workout I could do, but like reasonably fast.
So I would say that was me just doing two workouts in one day because I could.
And now I'm doing true threshold, double threshold, which is like the idea is like nothing is really a crazy hard pace, but you're getting a lot of volume in your legs and kind of building up that fatigue.
That's what I think I'm about to ask you about.
I'm not sure. I'm not sure like what the paces for this workout correspond to like.
Was this a threshold workout? Was it a little bit faster?
I'm not sure. But you did a workout that was... six by a thousand in the morning.
And then in the afternoon, you did 15 times 400 meters.
And I believe you are running about 314 for the thousands.
Oh, yeah. And then 74s or you got down to 74 for the final 400.
Yeah, that was my that. Yeah, that was I did that two months ago.
So that was with Julie's training or maybe a month ago. when I was in France.
That was my threshold. To be fair, she gave me slightly slower paces and there was like three photographers and a videographer. and like the whole Solomon team.
And so I got very excited and ran a little fast.
We all would. We all would, Annie. I think my paces were like 318.
I was going 314. And then I think I was anywhere from like 74 to like 77.
So it was close to my threshold. Um, but definitely a little faster cause I was excited.
Yeah. But that's, that's pretty typical.
Um, The 400s are never super crazy fast and short break in between.
They just kind of add up over time. Yeah.
What kind of recovery do you take in a workout like that where the pace is still reasonable for you, but you are doing a very high volume of it?
And I said in the video, I couldn't remember what my pace, Rest was, and I definitely don't now, but it was probably 90 seconds standing is my best guess based off of Julie's training in between the Ks.
So finish a K. Stand around and then go again.
And then, yeah, always for her 400s that are at about threshold pace, it's always 30 seconds.
So that was new to me. When I had done 400s in the past, which my old coach had never let me do double threshold.
So if I was doing a 400 workout, it was like a straight 400 workouts, maybe 20.
It was always like a minute or 200 jog. So the 30 seconds is new, but fun.
And it keeps you from going too fast, which is the point.
Yeah, and then I think in between them, normally, in between two workouts on a double threshold day, normally if I'm at home, I'm coming back.
I'm showering. I'm taking care of my dog.
I'm trying to lay down. I'm gaming. I'm trying to do something where I'm not doing stuff.
That day specifically, we went back to our Airbnb.
Our like chef that we had made us food. And then we went to Solomon headquarters and like walked around all day.
So I was very tired and then went straight to the track.
So that day specifically, I was definitely like, oh, I'm a little fatigued.
This is not normal. And it was hot, but you know, Like I said, there's a lot of people out there and that got me very excited.
So I was able to do it. In one of your posts, I noticed that you took a nap.
Are you a big napper in between training sessions, especially on these days?
I'm not. I try really hard. I never nap.
I will usually lay down and just stare at my phone. for like an hour so at least my body is like not napping but maybe thinks i'm napping and try to fall asleep and i usually don't but i will try and if i can i will But I'm not good at like, chilling or like sitting down.
So that's why like I try to read or I game a lot because then at least I'm like sitting in my chair. and not walking around my house trying to clean it or right now pack up things or take my dog on a walk.
So I kind of have to force recovery a little bit.
Yeah, I was always like that, too. I just was never a good napper, even though I desperately wanted to. wanted to nap after a lot of big workouts and things like that.
Post-collegiately, when I was training for longer races and my long run just took a lot out of me, I'd try to get in the post long run nap, like sometime in the afternoon, that was always clutch.
Usually if I'm tired enough, I can make it happen.
Yeah, same. But I go through periods where I'll like want to nap and like will like maybe two weeks of like, oh, I'm napping a lot.
And then I'll go through a period of way longer.
Like I'm in now, like probably like a month or two where I'm like, I can't nap.
Like I will try so hard, but I just can't. you're pretty close to racing.
Do you get excited as the race is coming up on the schedule?
Like, you're not able to nap because you're excited.
Your HRV is low because you're just really excited and maybe a little nervous in there.
Is that something that gives you a little anxiety?
Um, yeah, it depends on the race. It depends on my heads, my mindset.
I would say I used to be someone who was very, very, very, very excited to race always, but I feel like, and this is one of the reasons I left my last team for, you know, looking for new opportunities.
And so that's where I got Solomon, Meridia. is I feel like from being on that team and my coach, I've started to dread them a lot.
There was a lot of pressure about them and about You know, if I was going to succeed to the level that I thought I was and like certain times that I needed to be, you know, running and disappointment if I didn't.
And so I feel like I'm in, I've been in a weird headspace where I just feel like that competitive drive and that like, you know, excitement to race has kind of been a little bit stripped from me, whether on purpose or an accident, it's, it happened.
And so I'm trying to get back to that place where like, yeah, just like fierce.
I don't get who's on the line. I just want to compete and race.
And Julie and I have both, you know, been working towards that.
Um, so I feel like I'm like an in-between right now of like, I don't feel, you know, the anxiety of like, well, what happens if it If it goes bad, cause that's, you know, racing I'm never scared of, but I used to be really scared of the result afterwards of it being bad.
And what happens then? Because I would be, you know, I get very disappointed in myself.
And then I had a coach who would also be disappointed in me, which was not healthy.
So trying to, you know, work away from that and just get back to like, just being really eager to race and like excited to get to compete against people.
Um, so yeah, it's almost that new runner mentality of like, Ooh, I get to do this fun thing called racing.
And it's so different than anything else I get to do.
If you can just hold on to like almost that childlike wonder, that'll propel you through a lot.
I agree. It's sometimes hard though, especially when it is your job to like.
I don't care what happens. That's very, very hard.
I don't think anyone making a presentation to the board or something is like, I don't care what happens.
I'm just here to do a good job. It's like, no, you actually do care about the result.
Yeah. I want to ask you a very practical question about racing.
So you recently raced at 8.30 p.m., Maybe it's the fact that I'm now a masters runner, but I'm usually dozing off at that time.
Walk us through how you get up. for a race at that time?
Like, are you caffeinating perhaps in the same way? that you would for an 8.30 race doing the same exact pre-race routine for a race at 8.30 p.m. that you might do for 8.30 a.m.?
? How do you kind of structure things? Because that to me is like the worst time to have a race.
Oh yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it can be a lot.
Basically, there's more time in the day to get caffeinated.
And I take opportunity of all of those. And so I'm usually very, very, very, very over caffeinated by the time I get to one, which can sometimes be a bad thing because I'm like, and I will have like two hours left until I'm racing.
Cause I'll just be like, well, I can have another coffee, I guess.
So yeah, it's a lot. I think it's more just in terms of like thinking about, well, when am I gonna eat?
When am I gonna eat it? Am I going to be hungry later?
Am I not going to be hungry? Am I eating too close?
And there's just a lot of time in which...
You can't do anything like you don't want to waste energy.
And usually you're not at home. So you're just like sitting in a hotel room by yourself or with like the person that you're rooming with for this meet. and just trying to not think about the fact that you have a race in five hours.
So yeah, it's a lot of managing everything.
But in terms of me, yes, I'm drinking a lot of caffeine, specifically like... normal when I wake up, maybe a shakeout run, maybe one in the middle of the day.
And then definitely one is like, I go to the track and then maybe like a caffeinated gel.
Um, and bicarb, I don't think bicarb has any caffeine in it, so.
Yeah, it almost seems like everything is optimized for the race and you're like, We can worry about how well I'm going to sleep afterwards.
Absolutely. Yes. You're not sleeping. Yeah.
Okay. Is the next day after an 8.30 PM race, is that a day where you might try to take a nap?
Um, that'd be great. But usually I'm flying out the next morning.
Oh, so that's tough. It's like, you're not even giving yourself that much recovery options.
No. Yeah. Cause like, unless it's a race at home, which unless it's indoor, it's not then like, You know, I don't need to be in, like I was just in Memphis.
I don't need to be in Memphis for a whole day afterwards.
Like I want to go home and get back to training.
You know, so, yeah, you're usually flying out the next morning.
So, no, I mean, nap if you can on the plane, but I also can't nap on planes.
So. I'm sleeping like four hours and then I'm getting up really early and getting on a plane. and then just trying to make the rest of the day work.
So it's kind of just like a throwaway day, the day after a late race.
Yeah, that sounds tough. I'm not sure which is harder, doing that or flying out like an hour after you finish a marathon, which I know a lot of runners do. at these destination races.
I can't imagine either. They're both just, they do not sound fun.
I'd almost rather get on a plane afterwards if there wasn't the time.
So like, I also don't want to be stressed before a race.
So if I'm thinking, oh, but am I going to make my flight after this?
That would stress me out. But if there's like a. a good enough chunk of time where I'm not stressed, about making the flight and everything, then I would rather just fly then.
Then I would sleep on the plane, just cut my losses, have a horrible night, And then be home and can kind of have the next day as a normal day instead of wasting a whole other day traveling home.
Yeah, I can't imagine thinking, well, if I run 14.58, I'll make the flight.
But if I run 15.02, I won't have time. Hopefully that's never the case, but yeah.
I'm definitely worrying about making flights always.
Well, Annie, thank you so much for your time today.
I loved learning more about your career, your training, how you're approaching things.
I'm so glad you're going to be local. I'm in Denver, so you're going to be moving up to Boulder soon.
That sounds really great. I'm a little biased, but I think it's a wonderful training environment.
And you've got USA's coming up in like a couple days from the day that we are recording this.
So this is going to be published after the race.
So we can't exactly wish you good luck, although I can wish you good luck right now.
Where can folks find you to follow along with your running career?
I know they're going on a check in on. kind of the race report after you run the 5,000, where would you like people to go?
Yeah, I'm on Instagram at Andrea underscore roadie. which is short for Rodenfell is my last name.
I'm on Strava. post all my runs on Strava because I don't care if you want to replicate my training, go ahead.
It'll break me, Annie. It will break me.
Don't recommend it. I'd be like, go ahead, try it.
And then I post occasionally on TikTok. I'm also on Goodreads if you read a lot.
That's about it. Yeah, I noticed you are a huge reader.
So if we have any bookworms in the audience, they're probably going to love... not only seeing what you're reading, but I'm sure you're highlighting things and getting a sense of what you like there.
Yeah, sometimes there are reviews. It depends on if I felt strongly about the book.
Cool. Well, I will link to those locations in the show notes so folks can follow along.
Annie, best of luck at USA is coming up.
Thank you so much for your time. Thank you.
Thanks for having me, Jason. What an episode.
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