You're tuned in to Roundtable.
I'm Steve Hatherly today with Fei-Fei and Yuxin.
Coming up, forget casting a wide net.
The hottest new marketing strategy is telling customers to go away.
What?
Doesn't make sense.
We'll look at the surprising power of dissuasion in terms of marketing.
After that they conducted a survey in America and they found that early afternoon is the time that most people crash.
Now that's not really surprising at all.
But they asked some interesting questions about energy levels personal energy levels and we'll have a fun quiz about that today.
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And now, if you don't like dark roast, this isn't the coffee for you.
That sentence sounds like a great way to lose customers, doesn't it?
Traditional marketing teaches businesses to cast the widest net possible, but new research suggests that this exclusionary approach might actually be a goldmine.
It's a strategy called dissuasion and it flips the script on the old rule of trying to please everyone.
By explicitly telling certain people not to buy a product, brands can actually increase interest among the people that they really want.
But how does rejecting customers boost sales?
That is the definition of counterintuitive.
Persuasive marketing is the opposite.
It uses psychology to influence consumer behavior.
And I think the easiest example that came to mind for me was Apple.
And all of their products, right?
Emotional aspiration, lifestyle, minimalistic logic.
These products are for you, are for everybody.
But dissuasive marketing is exactly the opposite.
Yeah, this is very interesting because the example that you just gave out Steve, if you don't like dark roast, then this isn't the coffee for you.
Just ring the bell about the dark chocolate I just bought.
I bought it on a live stream of one of the influencers on Xiaohongshu, and her exact phrase is something like this
This dark chocolate tastes really bitter.
If you don't like the bitter, if you really like sweet chocolate, then this one is not for you.
Immediately place the order.
See, look at that.
And that's what we're talking about today.
That is dissuasive marketing.
That live streamer used the exact opposite of what traditional marketers use, because most brands are absolutely terrified Yushan, of alienating anyone.
Yeah, they are.
I think when we are listening or hearing these kind of sentences, it's quite, I would say, obvious when we can hear that they explicitly rejecting that certain group of people, of consumers, right.
Dissuasion is a marketing strategy where the brand openly states that its product is not suitable for that specific type of person or consumer group.
Instead of trying to please everyone, the brand draws a hard line in the sand to define who belongs and who doesn't.
So research shows that this can sharpen brand identity rather than weaken it.
I think yeah, when they're also like calling out that specific group of people and showing that you are special and our products are designed for you.
They call this the velvet rope effect.
Think of a nightclub bouncer, right?
Maybe at the front door, they have that red rope.
And only the exclusive members of the club can come inside.
So denying entry makes the people who are allowed to go in feel like the chosen ones.
So in marketing, yeah, they call this the velvet velvet rope effect.
It's exactly the same thing.
If you don't like, what did she say?
If you don't like bitter chocolate?
If you don't like sweet, if you like sweet chocolate, then this dark chocolate is not for you.
So the velvet rope effect is making you, as a bitter chocolate fan, feel more like an exclusive member of a club.
Yeah, because you know I'm gonna go detail about that influencer without mentioning his or her name is that she builds her identity around fitness and lifestyle.
And I think selling this dark chocolate, this bitter dark chocolate sort of, also is identity relevant in terms of if you are also someone into fitness and into a clean, healthy lifestyle, your choice of dark chocolate should be dark, should be bitter.
And her view.
Her audiences are mostly those who want to stay fit, who may have routine workout plans.
And they, of course, they don't want really sweet milk chocolate.
They're looking for something, some of the healthier snack, quote unquote.
And I think this is how the rope, the velvet rope effect comes into play is that they're sort of telling you, if you buy this kind of product, then you are one of the community.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's the concept behind it.
Now, this has become hot these days.
And that line that I opened with about the coffee dark roast coffee that was actually done in a study not so long ago where they wanted to find out exactly the power of dissuasive marketing.
But it's been around for a long time.
There was a famous advertising campaign way back in 2011 from a clothing company, an outdoor clothing company called patagonia, and what they did in 2011 was they placed a full time, a full page advertisement in the new york times.
They put it there on black friday that's a huge shopping day in america, right?
And it was a picture of one of their jackets and the ad.
The advertisement read as follows Don't buy this jacket.
Now, from an advertising perspective, that looks like a terrible advertisement.
It looks like a terrible decision, but this is what they said.
This is what the company said about that.
This is from their home page.
It's part of our purpose to inspire and implement solutions to the environmental crisis.
It would be hypocritical for us to work for environmental change without encouraging customers to think before they buy.
To reduce environmental damage, we all have to reduce consumption as well as make products in more environmentally sensitive, less harmful ways.
So was that campaign successful?
Well, highly successful is the answer.
It drove a 30 increase in sales to well over 500 million and it strengthened brand loyalty because of the authentic, sustainability-focused marketing strategy.
By telling their audience, their customers, the bad truth first, it drew more customers to them.
So it sort of seems to me a bit of self-contradictory.
It's sort of our trying to challenge consumerism while in reality is encouraging more purchases.
I guess it's sort of tap into the psychology needs of a lot of people of feeling unique, feeling distinctiveness.
You know it's more like.
If I buy this kind of product, it means that I'm different from the rest of the people.
That's the psychology behind it.
Yeah.
Are there examples of this in Chinese culture, in marketing culture here?
I think so.
And this is just examples of these brands.
They are trying to use some of these statements by not saying like.
They're trying to show some of their characteristics by not saying that.
So one of the brands that is making horribly bad taste mineral water.
It is like the, the laoshan mineral water from qingdao.
They actively embrace the online nickname the worst tasting drink in history yeah they, they actively and openly accept that um title and then starting to advertise it um, as the kind of slogan or the, the advertisement for them, and they actually send bottles of their water to some influencers and to see if they're actually that bad state, bad taste, and the result is that all of them are saying that is really bad taste.
Interesting strategy.
It also triggers the curiousness exactly, and they are trying to, i think yeah, this is a lot of these brands, no matter it's the, the mineral water or patagonia, they're trying to um, i think, illustrate the image of that brand and by not saying the specific characteristic they are having, They're just using that kind of the hidden sentences that they're using.
That reminds me of another brand.
Well, a lot of Chinese brands, they are sort of amplifying their shortcomings.
I think one of the Chinese drink brands used to print their bad reviews on their packaging.
On their packaging.
Yeah, with words like, it tastes bad, or they run too many ads.
And that sort of triggered people to sort of start to pay attention to the brand in the first place.
And then maybe some of them will make the purchase.
And then another restaurant I think would be a more relevant example to dissuasive marketing is about a restaurant in China selling pickled vegetable fish.
And it used to have phrases such as we do not allow shared tables and no adjustments on the spicy levels or not available for take-outs.
They're trying to build themselves as this higher-end and finer dining brands compared to other brands who are allowing take-outs, who are allowing shared tables, who can make adjustments when it comes to the spicy levels of their dishes.
Exclusivity.
Yeah.
Exactly.
There's an example that I found.
Now, this is water.
It's nothing more than that.
It's water.
And it's called liquid death.
And they released an album.
The company, this company goes against the grain one million percent.
They released an album called Greatest Hates.
And the album is literal negative reviews and angry comments who don't get the brand.
The water comes in cans that looks like energy drinks.
So it has this kind of like bad boy, bad girl image to it.
Their advertisements on social media, they swear.
They use bad language in their advertisements.
And everything just goes against the norm.
And that product is hot, hot, hot.
But why now?
I mean, I mentioned it before.
The Patagonia example was from 2011.
But why is this exploding now?
What's the reasons behind it?
There is a group of people and these strategies are trying to find out that group of people.
They want to seek that kind of belonging because it feels like in 2025 and 2026, consumers are increasingly seeking that sense of belonging.
Many brands would rather have let's say, 1,000 devoted fans than just 10,000 indifferent customers.
They're trying to create that community, showing people that I belong to this community and these brands.
If these consumers are loyal enough, they can just create more, I think, profit than that 10000 different customers.
Yeah, because I think, just like the example that Steve just gave out the liquid death they have a very clear picture about their targeted audiences is people who are into that kind of culture.
And I think another factor at play is how marketing is done in recent years is mostly on digital social media platforms.
So algorithm is, I think, the key factor in social media.
Yeah, when brands are trying to see what kind of strategy they need to take on.
Yeah, because in social media, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll.
If you use persuasive marketing, This is what they say, that young customers, young consumers now, their BS meter is very high.
And if they feel like a company is trying to persuade them rather than be honest with them, they don't just dislike it.
They hate it.
So and then the algorithm.
So there's no strong reactions for that.
But with these kind of anti-marketing campaigns, if you will, they get reactions.
And that's very algorithm friendly.
So that's why some of these strategies work.
That water company, one of their commercials said this.
I wrote it down because it made me laugh.
For years, you've been convinced by marketing morons that water is for yoga moms.
Like they get mad at people almost, right?
It's just something that we're not used to seeing.
You're listening to Roundtable.
I'm Steve today with Fei-Fei and Yuxin.
And coming up, what time of the day do you usually crash?
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Then tune in to Roundtable. where East meets West and understanding is the goal.
This is Roundtable with myself, Steve, Feifei, and Yuxin.
You know that feeling.
It's the middle of the afternoon, your brain has turned to mush and your motivation has hit the floor, and all you can think about is nap nap nap, nap.
Well, we call it the afternoon slump and according to a new national survey in America, it has an official timestamp 206 pm.
That's when the average American's energy bottoms out.
But the crash is not really surprising.
They did a survey, though, of these people.
It was done by Talker Research on behalf of ZipFizz and they wanted to find out about energy, personal energy.
So what i've done is i've taken the questions that they asked them and i'm going to ask them to you.
If you're listening to our show, you can also answer these questions and see if you agree or if you disagree.
All right, so here we go.
Question number one when given the hypothetical gift of unlimited energy, what did most americans say they would prioritize doing?
A catching up on work and being more productive, b spending more time exercising and improving their health, or c spending more time with family and friends?
If given unlimited energy, how would they spend it?
I would say b, b spending more time exercising and improving their health.
There is science behind that.
I i I'm just guessing out without any stereotypical thoughts.
I think just being with families.
C. And the answer is C. Yeah.
Connection over productivity.
When freed from fatigue.
18 of respondents said their top priority would be more time with friends and family.
And that was the number one answer.
What do you think about that?
It kind of makes sense, of course, but I'm not sure about the survey side the pool of these scientists are doing.
I think also spending time alone, like exercising like my answer to that question also matter on some certain extent.
But I do get that when you feel low you have like lower level of energy talking to friends and family, talking to people you love and that matter to you.
That's the point.
Is that when we don't have energy, it's actively stealing time from the people who matter most to us.
According to that answer.
Okay, here's the next one.
When energy runs low, what is the first activity most Americans sacrifice?
A, socializing with friends, B, cooking meals at home, or C, exercising?
When your energy gets low, what do you sacrifice first?
I would say cooking because fast food is just really famous.
You're trying to tie this to American culture.
Just think human beings.
Well, I'm sort of feeling that, since the answer to question one is about spending more time with friends and family, we'll give you unlimited energy.
I would still go with A, socializing with friends.
In this case, the answer is C, exercising.
This is what they said about it.
Yes, our health goals are the most fragile.
44 of people reported that they don't have enough energy to exercise as often as they like, and it is the most common casualty.
Low energy, no exercise.
Oh, and it also created a domino effect.
34% said that they would sacrifice socializing, like you said.
And 31% would give up outdoor time and 29% would stop cooking at home.
But exercise is number one.
Does low exercise stop both of you from exercising?
Yes.
Whenever I kind of stay up late the next day, I usually do exercise in the morning.
So the next day, if I stay up late, I will stop doing exercise.
First of all, it's unhealthy.
Yeah.
And second of all, I will just don't have that kind of energetic energy, mood and vibe to do all of the exercises.
Yeah for me, if that low energy comes from mental reasons, if I'm very, very stressful, I would just go out, go for a run.
That would sort of bring back my energy back.
Oh, so low energy actually leads you to exercise more.
Yes.
That's only when I'm mentally stressed, not physically stressed.
That's impressive.
All right.
Here's an interesting question.
If people could choose one day of the week to receive a major energy boost, which was the most popular day.
A. Friday to power into the weekend.
B. Saturday for more personal time.
Or C. Monday to tackle the week.
If you could choose one day to receive a major energy boost, which day would it be?
Friday, Saturday, or Monday?
Monday, because Monday is the day that you just don't have a lot of energy coming back from holiday.
Me too, Monday, to solve that Monday blue thing.
Yeah.
I would not choose Monday.
What?
Because Monday is Monday anyway.
So even if you have more energy.
But Monday is so stressful.
But I was thinking that if we got that energy boost on Monday, we may have stressful Tuesday.
Why?
Why?
Because Tuesday is the new Monday.
So Tuesday would become the new Monday.
You're just delaying the inevitable.
I like the way you think about that.
The answer to this question was Monday to tackle the week.
Yeah.
I assumed it would be Friday or Saturday for more energy for the weekend, because the previous answers were if I don't have enough energy, then I don't have enough time, or I don't have enough energy to spend with my friends today or my family.
So I thought Friday or Saturday would have been the energy boost, but no, not at all.
Well done.
You nailed the quiz.
Here are some other interesting takeaways I found from that study.
They found that fatigue comes with guilt.
And when they asked what people felt most guilty about when energy was low, 32 said exercise, 32 exercise.
26 said home organization.
25 said self-care.
I guess that kind of stood out to me as well.
And perhaps the most telling stat is that 56 said a lack of energy directly impacts their ability to get things done, which ties back to story number one today on our show outsourcing the things that you don't want to do.
Full circle.
Thank you, robots, for your help.
That'll do it for Roundtable for this afternoon.
Thank you very much for spending your time with us today.
Tired or not, I'm Steve, she's Feifei, he's Yuxuan.
We all thank you together and please do return next time.
