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Hey, everyone, it's Anna.
Before we get started today, I just want to ask a quick favor.
We're working on our Valentine's Day episode, and we want you to be a part of it.
Can you tell us about the moment you knew you were falling in love?
Where were you? What was happening?
What did it feel like?
It can be about a relationship you're currently in or a relationship from the past.
We just want to know about the moment you could tell, hey, I'm falling in love with this person.
record your answer as a voice memo and email it to modern love podcast at NYtimes dot com and we may end up featuring it on the show one more time tell us about the moment you knew you were falling in love and send it as a voice memo to modern love podcast at NYtimes dot com we are so excited to hear
from you if you want to be included in the episode your deadline is February 5th okay let's start the show Love, now and all.
Did you fall in love last time?
Love is stronger than anything.
For the love, love.
And I love you more than anything.
There's love, love.
Rob and Eileen Bernstein did not like calling herself a widow.
Labels are very deceptive.
When somebody says, widow, it doesn't necessarily mean they've lost the love of their life.
or a girlfriend could mean something a lot more than just girlfriend.
So when it came time to write the inscription for her husband's headstone, Robin was stumped.
You're literally putting it in stone.
This was our relationship.
Was he my beloved husband?
Well, no. Not when you're about to get divorced.
What happens when the permanence of death clashes with the messiness of life?
From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
Each week, we bring you stories inspired by the Modern Love column.
Today's episode is based on an essay called Here Lie the Bickerson's Side by Side for All Eternity by Robin Eileen Bernstein.
Stick with us. with so much going on right now it's easy to put wellness on the back burner prioritize you by making self -care a little more delightful with Ollie get your essential vitamins and minerals with our women's multi -gummy keep your mood upbeat with vitamin D and hello happy and get some much
needed rest with Ollie's sleep and wake up feeling refreshed do wellness on your terms whatever that looks and feels like for you find Ollie at a Walmart or Target near you or at Ollie .com that's O -L -L -Y .com These statements have now been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.
This product is intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
I'm Jonathan Swan. I'm a White House reporter for The New York Times.
I have a pretty unsentimental view of what we do.
Our job as reporters is to dig out information that powerful people don't want published, to take you into rooms that you would not otherwise have access to, to understand how some of the big decisions shaping our country are being made, And then painstakingly to go back and check with sources check
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This is not something you can outsource to AI.
There's no robot that can go and talk to someone who was in the situation room and find out what was really said.
In order to get actually original information that's not public that requires human sources we actually need journalists to do that.
So as you may have gathered from this long riff I'm asking you to consider subscribing to the New York Times.
Independent journalism is important and without you, we simply can't do it.
Robin, Eileen Bernstein, welcome to Modern Love.
And I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you. I'm going to jump right in with you.
Why did you and your husband, Mark, decide to get divorced?
We had a long marriage, but there was a lot of bickering.
Every couple argues, right?
But for us, I think the balance was like the arguing to the good times was...
The ratio was off. The ratio was off.
We agreed on the big stuff.
We wanted kids. We had two kids within four years.
We enjoyed doing the same things.
We had similar worldviews.
but mark was he kind of had this sort of my way of the highway approach to life and he felt like he knew the best way to do things you know go to this supermarket or drive in this you know take that route or like for example the grocery store so i had just moved out to long island which is where he
lived i i'd been living in manhattan and i didn't really i i was having trouble adjusting to living out there it wasn't for me so he you know he's he was telling me where the grocery stores were that's the story he pointed to one grocery store that's that's the store you should go to and i didn't particularly
like going to that grocery store i like the the other one a mile the other direction but he you know he was so insistent well they have the best prices or they have the best this and and it just like that's the level of of small stuff we're talking about you know or we'd be driving and he was a backseat driver.
Oh, pass that car. Oh, you should go that way.
It's a little quicker.
It's like you drive that he wasn't an easy person.
He could be a very difficult person.
He had a good heart and it was coming from a good place.
Like he thought he was, you know, spreading his wisdom.
Yeah, he thought he was helping.
Exactly. Thank you.
And when you're living with someone like that day in and day out, it's just exhausting.
And because, you know, I had my own opinions and it became apparent early on in the marriage I mean we started marriage counseling like right after our honeymoon and we continued with counseling for a good chunk of our marriage you know and I was reading every I'd go to Barnes & Noble and read every
you know how to save your marriage book or go on when then when the internet came along googling what kinds of questions were you googling um how to communicate better how to a lot about how to get along just the day -to -day stuff and and not argue about every little thing and I think he would try to
change and we both wanted the marriage to work I kind of thought of it like you know when you're in the ocean and a wave comes and knocks you down and you get up and then another wave comes and knocks you down and then you get up and then you know after you know a dozen you know a hundred times getting
knocked down it's like this is exhausting I want to get out of the ocean yeah who was robin before she met mark like what was her life like so i was living in manhattan in the west village i had this great apartment and i was a drummer in a band hey hold on you were a drummer in a band i was a drummer
in a band um so i was living this kind of fun you know city life it was just fun and then i meet mark and now my life is like that life is yeah i did want a partner i did you know i wanted to get married very much and i wanted kids but i don't think i fully realized how much i was giving up you know tell
me what drew you to him initially He was this really spontaneous guy.
He had two speeds. He was, like, running, doing, or he was, like, on the couch with the remote, you know.
We were at the beach one day, and suddenly he starts, like, putting on his clothes, his shorts, and he's like, where are we going?
He goes, we're going to the movies.
You know, it's like he just had all this energy, and I just got swept into that.
But he was—he made me feel very loved, and he was extremely— How?
Did he say it? Oh, my God.
He had a phrase. Now it escapes me.
But something he would say – oh, I remember.
He would say, I'm lovesick.
That's what he would say, I'm lovesick.
I felt wanted. That is so powerful.
I felt really wanted.
And, you know, I had had a lot of years of dating and, you know, relationships not working out.
And it's like, here's this guy, and it was just seemed to be working.
And he seemed crazy about me.
And, you know, he was there and it was moving in the right direction, you know.
And I probably noticed, okay, maybe it's not perfect.
But what is? But what is?
It's like, it's pretty good.
You know, the biggest problem, I think, with the two of us was we were attracted to each other.
We had the physical attraction.
We had similar interests.
We both wanted a family.
So we did have a lot of the big things in common.
But at the core, we weren't really friends.
We loved each other, but we didn't necessarily always like each other.
We were like these just two good people who weren't good together.
I was a Mac and he was a PC.
And we just two different operating systems.
Were you the Mac or were you the PC?
I was the Mac. He was the PC.
Okay, thank goodness.
I was like, you look like Mac to me.
So that's one of the reasons that the marriage failed was just this just constant stress of trying to understand each other, trying to get each other and not being able to.
I guess I wonder, like, was there a moment where you were like, this is too much, I'm done?
or was it sort of like a rolling boil almost like since you got back from the honeymoon?
I think for a long time I thought we could fix this.
You know, it was just a matter of finding the right counselor or the right...
Or the right book, yeah.
The right book, whatever.
By the last few years, it wasn't if we're going to split up.
It was more like when.
I think I did say to him, you know, maybe we should split up.
This isn't going to work.
And he'd say no. We're going to work it out.
He wanted it to work.
I was the more realistic one.
Although ironically, he was the one who actually pulled the plug before I did.
He said, let's get it.
He said, it was a regular day.
I was walking out the door.
I was going somewhere, and I passed by him.
He was sitting on the couch watching TV, and I said, bye, I'm headed out or whatever, And he said, oh, okay, by the way, you're going to be getting a letter from my attorney.
And it was just like, it was just so matter of fact, like, oh, by the way, go pick up a quart of milk.
You know, oh, by the way, you're going to get a letter from my attorney.
And I remember sort of stopping and thinking, okay, oh, so this is how it ends.
It's striking me that you two did not bicker about getting a divorce.
It sounds like that was something that you both agreed with.
It was a relief, I think, to finally just not to stop trying so hard.
You know, the thing about—well, not that I've been divorced, but so I'm told— is that it's—I mean, it's tough, it can be ugly, it can drag on, especially when kids are in the mix.
How did it work with you two?
It was slow. So once we agreed to split up, I just figured, OK, you know, you come to an agreement about finances and who gets what and then that's it.
But it just it just kept dragging on and on.
But on the flip side, because there was a sense of relief, we were kind of in this twilight zone where, OK, everything this isn't so bad.
It became comfortable to just live apart and not go through the, you know, the actual nuts and bolts of the actual divorce.
So you're living apart after 17 years.
What does that do for your dynamic?
It took the pressure off of us.
We were still legally married.
We didn't have a formal separation agreement.
It was just like, okay, you know, you do your thing, I'll do my thing.
It was like, oh, you want to come over and see the kids, whatever.
We were now able to communicate without this constant bickering.
Did you two start to date other people?
Yeah. Well, he met someone quickly.
How did that feel? It was fine, you know what?
Because it was like she took them off my hands.
it's a terrible thing to say.
But, you know, he loves this new person.
And he said, you'll like her too.
And I was happy that he found someone else and that he was happier and calmer because it made my life easier.
Tell me about when you first met her.
And did you like her as much as Mark said you would?
I did. You know, she was very sweet.
She had a nice smile.
She seemed very warm and friendly, not standoffish and aloof or anything like that.
I liked her. As you started to spend more time with the girlfriend and with Mark, did you see that kind of friction between the two of them, that kind of bickering that you two had, or was it smoother?
It was smoother. But I will tell you this.
There was one point when she said to me, he could be kind of difficult.
And you were like, sister?
I was like, just, I want to say, so no return policy.
No refunds, no return.
You're like, I'm sorry, you threw away the receipt.
Right, right, right.
I mean, she was aware of it.
Yeah. But I think that they were hoping to, once Mark and I finalized our divorce, I think the assumption was that they would get engaged and married.
Are all of you spending time together as a family?
Like, what about holidays?
So we continued to spend holidays together for the most part.
His brother and his brother's wife, so my brother -in -law and sister -in -law, they lived nearby and they tended to have holidays at their house.
And I continued to be invited.
I mean I was still part of the family which was wonderful for me you know because that's not always the case it's like you split up, goodbye you know you're dead to me, we never want to see you again I mean his family loved me they were like we want her we're like her grocery store it's like who gets
who we don't want him so anyway I was at some holiday dinner at their house with a lot of people Mark and his girlfriend and me and the kids and my brother -in -law and sister -in -law and their kids and then extended family, other cousins and friends.
The whole gang's here.
The whole gang. And we're all having coffee and dessert.
And people were getting ready to go home.
And Mark got up and he stood behind his girlfriend and he put his hands on her shoulders and said, okay, honey, it's time to go.
And then I was sitting next to her.
So then he moved over and did the same thing.
He puts his hands on my shoulder and said, OK, honey, it's time to go.
And everybody just cracked up.
I love that. I mean, it was like he took a moment that could have been tense.
I mean, it is odd to have the girlfriend and the wife there.
Still wife, yeah. I was still the wife.
I was still the wife.
I mean, it's unusual.
And he just diffused it.
He could be very funny if he wanted to be, and it was just such a great moment.
It was so funny and so real.
Did it make you feel even more so like this is right, this is the decision that had to be made?
It did. It was like, this is going to work.
He's going to eventually marry her and I'll be able to move back to the city where I want to be.
and all will be good.
Just as Robin was getting comfortable with the situation, everything suddenly changed.
That's when we come back.
Stay with us. With so much going on right now, it's easy to put wellness on the back burner.
Prioritize you by making self -care a little more delightful with Olly.
Get your essential vitamins and minerals with our Women's Multigummy.
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Do wellness on your terms, whatever that looks and feels like for you.
Find Olly at a Walmart or Target near you or at olly .com.
That's O -L -L -Y dot com.
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.
This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
Tell me about the last time you saw Mark Sure It was a beautiful Sunday afternoon And I was in the backyard And he called and said Can I come over and hang with the kids He had been away that weekend with a buddy of his And I said sure I joked I said you can come and vacuum out the pool So he came over
and we had like a little basketball thing set up in the driveway.
I remember he was shooting hoops with the kids.
We sat around the pool.
We talked. I don't remember the details, but I remember just it being a lovely afternoon where we were not arguing.
And thinking that had it been like this more often during our marriage, that maybe we would have stayed together.
And then around four o 'clock, I was sitting in the chair outside and I was reading and I heard him say, I'm leaving.
Did you hug goodbye?
No, we didn't. We didn't hug goodbye.
I just remember hearing him say, I'm leaving.
And those were the last words I ever heard him say, I'm leaving.
Because that was the night he had a heart attack.
Tell me about how you found that out.
It was in the evening after dinner and I was watching TV in my room.
and his girlfriend called and that's when she told me he had a heart attack and she was a nurse she did CPR on him she said and she called 911 and you know the ambulance came but it took them I think close to 40 minutes to get a normal sinus rhythm back So that's like too long, you know And so he was now
in the ER And she said, come quickly And how old was he at the time?
57 So he was young I got the kids The three of us get in the car And we drive to the hospital And it was a Sunday night It was very quiet there And there was this ER attendant I guess he was like a security guard So I walk in and I said who we were there to see.
And he said, oh, well, he ushers us into this waiting room.
And he said, well, you guys are going to have to wait in here because the doctor is talking to the family.
Because his girlfriend was there.
And also it turns out my brother -in -law had just gotten there too.
So I said, well, we are the family.
And he looks at me and goes, who are you?
And I said, I'm his wife and these are his kids.
The look on his face was like, this can't be good.
I mean, I wish I had taken a picture of his face because I was just like, what?
Who's that lady in there?
Did you explain, like, it's the girl?
You were just like, let's get in there.
So, yeah, then I'm ushered into the room with the doctor.
and one of the ICU nurses said to me at one point, when we found out there was a wife and a girlfriend, we were all prepared for like, you know.
And they were so pleased to see how well everybody got along.
Wow. We were in a terrible situation to begin with and there was no reason to make it worse.
And I also felt for his girlfriend.
I mean, it had, I thought this has to be so awkward for her.
I just wanted her to not feel like I'm elbowing her out like hey get out of the way I'm the wife now you know you're not needed here and emotionally she is I'm sure distraught as well oh she's very good I mean he had a heart attack in front of her you know she was the one dealing I mean I'm sitting home
watching HBO and I'm the wife and she's the girlfriend who doesn't have a legal bond to him.
And yet she's the one who's really suffering.
It just partly I felt like, what am I doing here?
Because remember, we were separated for two years at that point.
We had not been together for two years.
He's with her. I'm dating.
I refer to him as my ex.
So now suddenly I'm the wife.
That's what kind of blew my mind.
It's like we are leading separate lives, we have divorce attorneys, and now suddenly everyone's treating me like, well, you're the wife, you're in charge, you're the healthcare proxy, you're the mother of the children, and everyone's kind of looking at me.
Once it was clear that Mark was not going to recover, what did you decide to do?
we decided to take them off life support because they said, you know, there's no hope.
There's very little brain function.
So I had to get a burial plot.
We didn't have burial plots.
We'd never spoke about it.
We had other issues we were dealing with.
And my sister -in -law said to me, well, why don't you buy two plots, one for Mark and one for his girlfriend and i just i looked at her and i thought i i thought i looked at her like she was crazy because i i thought she'll meet somebody else you know like i didn't say this but i'm thinking why would she
it's not like she's miss havisham from you know great expectations going to be in her wedding dress with cobwebs you know for the next 50 years i mean she'll she'll have a life and i thought about it and i thought well if it helps her to feel included okay fine and I went over and I said you know I'm
gonna get two burial plots and if you want one you want a plot here's a free burial I don't remember exactly how I said it to her but she immediately burst in like said thank you like she burst into these sort of happy tears or emotional tears like I think she appreciated this gesture of inclusion.
Tell me about when you went to the cemetery to buy these plots and what happened.
It was Friday morning and he was being taken off life support that afternoon so I basically had just a few hours to get this burial plot and I met my brother -in -law at the cemetery.
His brother, Mark's brother.
Mark's brother, yes.
And we go into a sales office, I guess.
It's like a regular office with a big desk and the sales guy for the cemetery is sitting on the other side.
And I explained, I said, I told him the situation.
He's on life support.
He's not expected to survive.
So I want to buy two plots.
So the sales guy expresses his condolences and he said, I assume you'll want a double stone.
So I said, well, the other plot isn't for me.
it's for his girlfriend he's like his eyebrows go up into his the top of his head and he's like okay he looks to my brother -in -law because he's thinking i'm dealing with a crazy wife so um my brother -in -law said well they were getting divorced at that point the sales guy like you can see him like shuffling
papers and he's thinking i i imagine like the thought bubble on his head it was like okay if this wife wants to buy a burial plot for her the guy she's divorcing and his girlfriend not my problem it's just it was really so but he but he you did it i did it i bought the two plots but then you have to
figure out obviously what to write for mark how did you figure that out that was not that was not easy i wanted to reflect respect the relationship that we had not you know the relationship that everyone would assume because normally it would say beloved husband and that would come at the top and then um
you know father brother you know whatever so um this was can i take out a paper yeah yeah Yes, I, at the top, it says loving father, because that was his most important role, caring husband, devoted son, because his dad was still alive, dear brother and uncle.
And then for his girlfriend at the bottom, beloved companion.
It's interesting because someone told me like years later that companion means like your pet.
I was going to say it sounds kind of like a dog.
Yeah. And I was like, oh, geez.
And it's kind of too late to change.
Like, it's literally written in stone.
Right, it's literally written in stone.
Well, I just, like, beloved boyfriend, especially when you have caring husband.
I don't know. I think that covers the bases.
Yeah, it was like, what?
Companion and husband?
Okay. I could have written soon -to -be ex -husband.
Maybe that would have been better.
As the years passed, did the idea of Mark's girlfriend being buried next to Mark still seem like the right thing for everyone?
You know, we stayed in touch the first, you know, year or two.
We definitely stayed in touch, especially on birthdays or on the anniversary of the death.
You know, we invited her to dinners, things like that.
But then as time went on, you just start to move on with your life.
And by the time, you know, I had to pay off the cemetery, 36 monthly installments.
So it was three years before I finally got the deed to the plots.
So by the time I got the deed in the mail, I was living back in Manhattan.
And were you still in touch with a girlfriend by that point?
Not that much at that point.
No. It was like, am I supposed to, like, e -mail her and say, hey, I got the deed.
It's three years later.
Are you still interested?
The whole thing just was bizarre.
But I found out through the grapevine that she had gotten married.
And I texted her saying congratulations.
I heard you got married.
That's when she texted back, thank you, and how are the kids, and I miss you guys.
It was really warm, you know?
So that was five years ago.
And I guess that was the point when I realized, well, clearly she doesn't want this burial plot.
You know, it's like, hi, I know you're remarried, but are you still interested in being buried next to you?
Right. It's not the time to bring it up now.
But that doesn't answer the question of, well, so what do you do?
I mean, you have it.
You own it. I own it.
You paid it off. Well, right.
Here's what I wrestle with.
I wrestle with, do you get buried next to the guy you were divorcing?
That's number one. And then the other question is, I never wanted to live out there and never really wanted to leave the city and never wanted to move to the suburbs.
So it's like, well, why would I want to spend eternity there?
Buried next to the guy who, all we did was bicker.
It was like, well...
So it sounds like you very much still, the short version of it is you still don't know what you're going to do with this plot.
You know, I still could sell it, but the fact that I have not done a thing kind of means that I made a decision just by not making a decision.
What does that tell you?
Yeah. What does that tell you?
It tells me that it's like, it doesn't make any sense on a lot of levels.
But on a lot of levels it does make sense for me to be there because where else would I be?
I'll be dead. What am I trying to prove?
You said in life Mark really wanted things his way.
And I think it'll be funny in a dark way but in a funny way if he gets his way and you end up on Long Island after all.
That's so perceptive.
He's still getting his way.
Even in death, he's still getting his way.
I did not want to move out there when we got engaged.
It was, I used to say to him, I'm moving back to the city.
You're either coming with me or you're not.
But now he's dragging me back, and this time forever.
If you end up buried next to Mark on that cemetery in Long Island which it sounds like you might Many, many, many years from now Oh my God, so many So many years What do you think he would say?
Like he'd roll over and be like Robin, you're here Where did you go shopping?
How much did you pay for lettuce?
Take a right turn How much did you pay for lettuce?
It's cheaper at the other place.
I was going to say I'm dead, but that's not the right thing.
That's so funny. Yeah, we'll just be bickering into eternity about, I don't like those flowers.
Get a different plant.
It's just, yeah. Have you been out to visit Mark recently?
Yes, I was out there a few times.
Most recently was sometime last year.
And I went over and just kind of looked at him and talked to him and told him what was up.
And then I looked at the space next to him and thought, is that really where I'm going to end up?
And how did you feel looking at that empty space?
It felt strange. it felt really strange because I always wondered if buying that plot for his girlfriend was really just a way of that maybe it was for me all along you know getting divorced or not we struggled so hard to make this marriage work and then we actually did split up but we never really
split up it's like we split up but we were still married And then he died.
So I feel like I've spent my entire time with him before he died and after trying to split up.
You know, it just, splitting up is hard.
Sometimes it takes forever.
Robin, thank you so much for this conversation.
It was, we talked about death so much and still somehow it was a blast.
And we're still laughing.
We're laughing. Anna, this was such a pleasure speaking to you about this.
Thank you so much. You're very welcome.
Thank you. This episode of Modern Love was produced by Amy Pearl with help from Reva Goldberg and Davis Land.
It was edited by our executive producer, Jen Poyant.
Production management by Christina Josa.
The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell.
Original music by This episode was mixed by Studio support from Special thanks to The Modern Love Column is edited by Daniel Jones Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times we've got the instructions in our show notes I'm Anna Martin.
Thanks for listening.
