Hey, I'm Michael Kovnat, host of The Next Big Idea Daily.
The show is a masterclass in better living from some of the smartest writers around.
Every morning, Monday through Friday, we'll serve up a quick 10 -minute lesson on how to strengthen your relationships, supercharge your creativity, boost your productivity, and more.
Follow The Next Big Idea Daily wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts.
We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life.
Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships.
Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed.
Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality.
So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything.
Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen.
Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
go. Tatiana, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you so much for inviting me Kwame.
Yeah, it's our pleasure to have you, my friend.
So how about you get started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, well, thanks.
I'm a communication educator.
I work in a academic environment at Indiana University, not too far away from you in the Midwest.
I teach in the Kelly School of Business.
I teach undergrad students, MBA students, executives, all about the fine art of communication, persuasion, being able to send out messages as they relate to working with others.
And I have a - Thank you for joining us today.
Thank you so much for inviting me, Kwame.
Yeah, it's our pleasure to have you, my friend.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, well, thanks.
I'm a communication educator.
I work in a academic environment at Indiana University, not too far away from you in the Midwest, I teach in the Kelly School of Business.
I teach undergrad students, MBA students, executives, all about the fine art of communication, persuasion, being able to send out messages as they relate to working with others, and I have a great time doing it.
I also have several LinkedIn learning courses, and some of them relate to communication, others to cross -cultural communication, and just a few of them on resilience.
So there's quite a few topics on the docket there.
That's great, and that's really what brought us together here because we're both LinkedIn learning instructors, and one of your courses caught my eye, Communicating in Times of Change.
And that's what we really want to focus on today.
So tell us a little bit about that course, and then let's chat about what skills or takeaways or tips we have for the listeners for today.
I'm glad that caught your attention.
It's one of my favorite courses, Kwame, because it's a skill that everyone needs at some point in their professional career, and it's specifically designed for middle level managers.
And kind of a fun fact about this course, my colleague, Brenda Bailey Hughes, and I co -present this course.
We had written all the scripts and designed them, and when we went to the studios, we realized that this was not a course that worked well with just a talking head.
We kind of had to build a story around it.
And if you watch the course, I am one of the protagonists and she is the wise mentor or a person that I vent to in the workplace because I'm the middle manager that has to communicate change and I'm getting all sorts of pushback because initially I do it in the wrong way.
I try to push it versus listening versus identifying times of change.
What are some of the biggest mistakes you've seen people make?
Uh, I don't know where to begin.
You and I probably could go on another hour off air talking about dramas that we've experienced in the work world.
But I think a lot of times managers don't take the time to strategize with when it comes to change.
So they underestimate the emotional toll that change takes on people.
So they may send out an email and say, we're changing this.
And others may sit back and say, where did this come from.
I was not informed.
I've been here for so long.
How come I don't know?
So the one mistake would be not being strategic and rushing things.
The other part that managers, again, in underestimating the emotional toll of change, they don't realize how change affects people negatively, or maybe they have biased against or towards change, because change has happened in the past to someone, and we don't know the emotional drama that has influenced
people's behavior. So without knowing that, or maybe without being empathetic and compassionate, as you say, quite often, they assume that this is a tactical approach.
So they may be more tactical and people's feelings get hurt because they were not listened to.
Another mistake may be that managers at times may not be transparent or honest.
If you have to communicate change to your staff, sometimes managers feel like, I'm going to just be the brave one and say, here's what we have to do.
We've got to follow orders.
It's coming from the top.
It's okay for you to say, you know what?
I'm struggling with this too.
It's hard for me as well.
So managers kind of feel like they have to put the shield of protection so they don't lose credibility in what we say in the course.
They really lose trust by not being transparent.
So timing would be an important piece, consideration and empathy towards how people feel with change and the lack of transparency at times makes for difficulty when communicating change.
So managers kind of feel like they have to put the shield of protection so they don't lose credibility in what we say in the course, they really lose trust by not being transparent.
So timing would be an important piece, consideration and empathy towards how people feel with change.
And the lack of transparency at times makes for difficulty when communicating change.
This is great. And I can hear some people listening and they say, listen, this sounds nice, Tatiana, but I'm in the real world.
Things need to happen.
They need to happen quickly.
And I can't wait for people's emotions to get on board.
And so that's why I'm so tactical and just moving quickly.
And so people just need to get over it.
So for those people who are in the audience who say, I don't have time for this, what do you have to say to them?
Yeah, I can't tell you enough.
You're investing in the long -term relationship.
If this is a short -term relationship, if you're not going to deal with those people as much again, it's okay to say, hey, you know what?
We're changing this.
There's no baggage and there's no connections and attachments.
But if this is your staff that you're working with in a long period of time, I'm not saying belabor this, but communicate and signal some way that this is important to you, that it's done right, and document or actually communicate that you've done a little bit of your research, you've talked to people.
And change sometimes.
I hear you that some people make everything a big drama piece.
In the course, the example that we use is there's benefits changes in people's benefits packages.
I used to work for human resources in our university for many years.
And you, if you want to mess with anyone's benefits, that's when people get really, really uptight about that, right?
So you have to decide as a manager, is this a small change or is this something that's bigger?
You just strategize how you approach it.
I wouldn't say you have to be this strategic with every formative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top -tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills.
Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands -on training for your team, we've got you covered.
Don't just negotiate, master the art with the American Negotiation Institute.
Click the link in the description to find out more.
Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.
to redefining work today.
Right, I think that's one of the biggest things when it comes to empathy is understanding how other other people see, think and feel about the situation.
And then also appreciating that the way that you see, think and feel about the situation could be completely different.
And both of those perspectives are legitimate.
And the thing is, when it comes to these these difficult conversations and persuasion in general, it takes time.
It takes time. And if you are trying to get people on board in a short period of time, then what often happens is you lose them.
That's when emotions get inflamed and people take offense and then you lose trust and credibility.
But if you are intentional about recognizing, okay, there is a change on the horizon or a potential change on the horizon, you can start to have these strategic discussions beforehand laying the foundation so it's not as jarring to the team as it otherwise could have been.
Let me give you a good example.
I have a group of MBA students that are going, were going, we just started a class yesterday and we have five different clients in Greece.
I'm originally from Greece, so I do a lot of courses that do consulting projects in Greece.
So our MBA students have met the clients online.
We've talked a lot about the projects.
We're kicking off and tell the clients we're not traveling, but we're still going to do the projects.
And I said, part of what I teach is cross -cultural communication.
I said, stop the presses.
And yesterday in class, I said, here is a fantastic opportunity to communicate change in a different culture, but still maintain the relationship.
For me as the faculty, I want to have those clients for next year, so I want to make sure not to harm the relationship.
So we did it in three steps.
It takes longer. I sent messages to the clients who I know personally and I said, lots of things are changing and the university is making different announcements based on travel.
Your team leaders are going to want to reach out to you.
So I didn't say anything specific.
Then the team leaders for each client project reached out and said, this was just announced.
We're so sorry. We're continuing with the project, but we're not going to visit you in person.
So then when they have their meetings, there's no surprises and the change has been sort of warmed up.
They've been promoted because in some of those meetings, there's more than one person.
So they've had a chance to think about it and that change doesn't hijack the whole meeting.
But our students didn't think about that.
They just thought that this would be just, you know, we'll spend a little time talking about it and then we'll move on to the project discussion.
And I said, you're going to lose them.
If you just drop this bomb in a meeting, you've got to be more diplomatic.
And it worked out thankfully.
Yeah. Oh, this is great.
This is great. Cause I think this is a fantastic case study of how you are managing that communication and how you laid those bread crumbs.
So it's not as jarring.
So when you think about this in terms of strategy let's extrapolate this in general to how we can navigate these difficult conversations about change in general based on that case study what are some of the strategic principles that we should pull out you know i think you need to as the messenger if if i
was the student or the student team that's communicating with the project but we're not going to visit you in person.
So then when they have their meetings, there's no surprises.
And the change has been sort of warmed up.
They've been promoted because in some of those meetings, there's more than one person.
So they've had a chance to think about it.
And that change doesn't hijack the whole meeting.
But our students didn't think about that.
They just thought that this would be just, you know, we'll spend a little time talking about it and then we'll move on to the project discussion.
And I said, you're going to lose them if you just drop this bomb in a meeting.
You've got to be more diplomatic.
And it worked out, thankfully.
Yeah. Oh, this is great.
This is great. Because I think this is a fantastic case study of how you are managing that communication and how you laid those breadcrumbs so it's not as jarring.
So when you think about this in terms of strategy, let's extrapolate this in general to how we can navigate these difficult conversations about change in general.
Based on that case study, what are some of the strategic principles that we should pull out?
You know, I think you need to, as the messenger, if I was the student or the student team that's communicating that, when you're communicating change strategically, what is changing and why?
In this case, it's easier when you say it's the ruling, the university said we can't do it.
But if you are making that decision, that's a little harder.
Here's why we're changing this.
You're a lawyer. You know how to build arguments and you would probably bring evidence to the table that you would have thought through and can build your credibility.
When there's a change, we need to have some backing of why this change is being made.
Also, when you're communicating change, another big principle is how does document or communicate here's how I think this is going to affect you tell me what you think or how do you see it and also how or have thought through how does this change or affect the person's performance is measured and how
does that change how they see it and then as a manager are you providing any support during this change I do think that the whole working from home and going back to work in the office is a brilliant example of how all of this is communicated not very well in some situations and very well in others.
Managers could say, what's their problem?
Why don't they want to come back to the office?
You know, that's the first thing that I wanted to do.
Well, not everyone is the same.
And others have found it to be more comfortable.
and maybe more, I would say, productive working from home.
So it's not quick shifts that you need to do.
You've got to sell it and what's in it for them and how it affects them.
So what's changing, why it's changing, how will that affect me?
Think about that and how does that change how you're being measured and is there a support?
That's kind of what we talk about in the course as well.
Oh, this is great. This is great, leaders.
I hope you are taking notes.
Because this is a masterclass on managing change.
And the thing that's really interesting about this is that the tools and techniques that you're giving in this interview, they are not overly complex or difficult to understand.
They really just take more or less patience and intentionality.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So patience from the standpoint of thinking of, are you going to email about it or text about it?
What's your message going to be?
Or what's the channel that you share with this?
So the example that I shared with the international clients, I sent written messages, but the leaders of each team had a phone call with each of the companies.
And then there was a Zoom meeting or whatever they met online.
so they could see face -to -face.
So we used all three channels along the way.
This is great. And this brings up an important point here too, because we are in this hybrid work environment.
A lot of our work is done communicating these changes.
Let's say, for example, in a video call, or actually let's take a step back and not just say in a video call, but understanding that we're not going to be face -to -face.
What changes in the strategic approach to that interaction?
You know, the channel is important and at times when you don't have to see the other person, sometimes don't underestimate just picking up the phone because when you don't have to see the other person, there's all this nonverbal stuff that is not in the equation that you have to translate, especially
for the person hearing the information too.
So it depends on the relationships and depends on how well you know the person, but don't underestimate that.
Sometimes also I do think instead, and again, as a lawyer, you probably may disagree with me where things have to be in writing so that we have documentation, but we don't underestimate leaving a message.
Say, hey Kwame, I want to talk to you about something when we meet next week.
I've been thinking about this, this, and this.
Maybe come to the meeting with some thoughts that you want to share as well and let's chat about it.
It's so much more personable than me just putting that in an email of one, two, three.
And back to the managers that might say I don't have time for this, I would argue that it's quicker probably to be able to do that and a little bit more personable as well.
So at times it depends if you're dealing with an email that has to be documented, that's necessary, a memo, maybe more formal.
I would say a text message is super informal picking up the phone is easier and finally being face to face uh would be the one that that uh or or actually meeting outside i always tell people when they have to deliver difficult messages it helps if they're walking with people so they don't have to be
looking in their eyes like if there's a walking meeting and you you have a tough conversation it's easier to do that yeah i thought you were going to say a lot we should have more walking meetings by the way No, I agree.
I agree. More walking meetings, by the way.
No, I agree. I agree.
And hey, listen, if it goes really poorly, you could be walking in the same direction, then you can turn and run the other direction if it goes really, really poorly.
Yeah. No, this has been really, really great.
With the time we have left, what would you say is one thing that our listeners can do to improve their ability to have these difficult conversations in times of change that we haven't talked about yet?
There's one piece that I didn't talk about that I do want to talk about.
It's timing, that when really consider in an organization, rumors get stirred around and people may know before you think they know.
So don't wait and sit on something too long because when rumors come ahead of you or people get to know when something is changing and you are silent because you're trying to take your own time to do this, that may harm your credibility as well.
So the channel and the message is as important as the timing, and then who the messenger is.
As an umbrella concept of all this Kwame, I would say when you're communicating change, be empathetic.
Change is hard for people.
You may be a badass that has changed a hundred gazillion times, but that's not the case for others.
So walk in other people's shoes and understand how that affects them.
That will help you build trust.
And when you can build that trust, maybe it's easier for them to follow you and trust you when you have to communicate that change.
So that's if there's one thing I want to say is just be empathetic on how challenging change may be for others.
Fantastic. Thank you again, my friend.
We really appreciate it.
You're so welcome, coming.
Thanks for inviting me.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before, about it you should listen to it again i want you to know about negotiate anything premium imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed plus so much more i know you like our traditional feed because you're
