Hello, everybody.
I'm Keith Morrison, and we are Talking Dateline.
Today, I'm here with, well, we couldn't get anybody else.
So it's Josh Mankiewicz.
Hello, Josh.
Hi.
So we're going to talk about this episode, right?
Which is called Wrong Turns.
Named after my career.
Yes.
Yeah, that's accurate.
If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed.
So go there and listen to it and stream it on Peacock and then come back here.
And there are spoilers here, of course, so be careful about that.
For this talking dateline, Josh has a never-before-heard clip from his interview with Detective Stoyer.
Did I get that right, Josh?
Stoyer?
That's his name.
But to recap, when Justin Hilbert's body was found on the side of the road, investigators never imagined another murder would help them piece together the question of who killed Justin.
Investigators uncovered a murder plot fueled by greed and jealousy, but one which went horribly wrong.
The intended victim survived, but her boyfriend, Justin...
And one of her boyfriend's killers was killed as well.
Josh, let's talk Dateline.
This was quite a remarkable story.
I mean, it was one of those stories, Josh.
It seems to me that you say if it was fiction you wouldn't believe it.
It just seemed too fanciful, too strange.
I mean it's nuts and it's astonishing for its sort of audacity and its just absolute evilness and greed and jealousy and hatred and stunning incompetence by the criminals who, You know, blurted out their plan right in front of somebody else who ended up talking with law enforcement.
And look, we've done.
You and I have done plenty of stories before in which somebody kills their spouse for the insurance money.
But this is a little bit different because, first of all, that insurance policy was in its last hours of life, which meant that the killing had to happen within a very finite period of time.
So Tanya had to die then.
And they couldn't make it happen.
And then everything fell apart after that.
What was it like to sit with Tanya and talk to a woman who you knew and she knew was to be the target of a murder plot?
And somehow she managed to survive, but her husband died.
Without her, I don't know that we could have done this story because this is kind of her story.
She's the intended victim, although she didn't leave her house that night and so therefore didn't get killed.
And she's also the victim, because the father of her child and the man that she, I think, really had loved since they were about 14 years old, was taken from her.
And as murder will often.
It seems to have broken the relationship between Tanya and Justin's parents.
Which I feel very bad about.
Originally they were going to the court hearings and motion hearings and status conferences together to sort of show this united front for Justin.
But Justin's parents are sort of unable to get past the idea that without his involvement with Tonya he's still alive.
They certainly don't believe that she had anything to do with it.
And they, I don't think anybody thinks that this could have been foreseen.
But that said, you know, the mom said to me, you know Justin's mom, like look, if they're not together, if they don't get re-involved, my son's still alive.
That may not be a rational statement.
But it's what the parents are dealing with.
It's just hard, too hard.
Because those parents, every minute, every minute of the day, they're thinking about their son.
Every time they wake up in the morning and go to bed at night, it's the only thing they can think about.
And if she reminds them of that even more, I can see why they couldn't do it.
How soon in the process did Dateline begin to cover this story?
I think we began to cover it fairly quickly.
It took a very long time to get from murder to courtroom.
And partly that's because this plot took a while to unravel.
And in part because, you know, COVID, I think, is still a...
You know, still a sort of bomb that was dropped into the criminal justice world and the ripples, you know, are still being felt because stuff got delayed and therefore other things got delayed and just everything takes longer.
Is there a scenario that, if Bailey wasn't killed, you think investigators would ever have figured this out?
You know, there's no way to know, obviously.
I mean, you know, there's a couple of different schools of thought about Bailey.
One is that you know she was killed because Jared thought she was the weak link and she was going to talk.
You know, but look, you've got a very sort of You've got this triumvirate of evil.
I mean you get Jared Bischoff, this controlling Navy guy who married Tanya, treated her horribly and then wanted to exact some vengeance when she left him and they got divorced.
You have Bailey Sharpe, who was Jared's new girlfriend and co-conspirator, and she went along with this and the prosecutor made it very clear to us if she were alive she would be facing a murder charge, no question.
And Danny Serrano.
You know probably the muscle here, and also a career criminal with the proverbial rap sheet as long as your arm.
And a very sophisticated guy, because when they find his DNA and fingerprints on Justin's car, he cops to auto theft to give himself an alibi for murder.
Which brings us to the different jurisdictions problem.
In that one police department was investigating one murder, a different police department the other murder.
And, you know, it took a long time for one to figure out what the other was doing.
And they're right in the same place.
Riverside police investigated Bailey's murder.
Riverside County Sheriff's Office investigated Justin's murder and that plot.
And it wasn't clear until Ricky, who'd spoken to Riverside police, ended up speaking to the Riverside Sheriff's Office, that the sort of dimensions of that plot became clear.
Tell me about, a little bit more about, what was his name, Alcoholic Ricky?
Alcoholic Ricky.
Well, Alcoholic Ricky was in Bailey's phone.
That was his name in the phone.
He worked at the Hookah Lounge.
He'd gotten to know Jared and Bailey and Danny Serrano, who were occasional customers there and overheard this conversation about how –.
If Jared's wife died, Jared would get an insurance payout.
And he's the person, Ricky's the person, who sort of made that connection to investigators.
Without him, I don't think there would have been a case, really, would there?
I think they didn't know what the motive was.
Was Ricky ever the subject of any suspicion at all on the part of investigators?
I don't believe that he was ever under suspicion.
Serrano comes back from what appears to be Justin's actual killing.
Ricky describes him as having bloody clothing.
That doesn't change.
What did change is that Danny apparently gave Ricky the bloody clothing and said, get rid of this.
And Ricky did, because I think he was terrified of these guys.
In Ricky's case, one wonders what would have happened had he known who to call, because it wasn't who you would expect it to be from his point of view.
This has happened to a lot of people, but I'll tell a small story.
My car was broken into some time ago.
The only important thing that was stolen out of the car was my iPad.
And, you know, you want your iPad.
So they called the police as part of this.
Eventually, somebody came around.
Let me just parenthetically say that I'm sort of astonished that police did not snap to attention when it was your voice on the phone.
Eventually, they came around, looked at the broken window, and they said they'd do what they could.
But I could see that the iPad was moving out of their jurisdiction.
One small town to the next small town to the next small town to the next small town.
Now, there are four police departments.
And I don't know where the darn thing is, right?
Pardon my French.
And so you have to know which police department to call, because you don't know who's investigating what.
And in Ricky's case, I mean, how would he know who was investigating this case?
Did that make any sense, what I just said to you?
Yes, although I'm anxious to hear the end now of that story and whether or not you actually got your iPad back.
I did find it, yeah.
I found it on my own.
You did get it back.
Really?
But not from the police.
Although they were nice people.
And they put a little bit of effort into it.
But they've got more important things to do than finding some old dude's iPad.
But you got it back because you bought it back from the thief?
I found it using the Find My iPhone app thing.
And what went there and duked it out with the guy, this is where I want this story to go.
Yes, absolutely.
I had a fist fight and I took him down, by golly.
That's what we need more of on Talking Dateline.
That's right.
Keep telling us about the fights he got into.
It was buried under a bush.
Not buried exactly, but it was hidden underneath a bush beside the road, not far from a fast food place where I think the thief actually was at the time that I found the iPad.
That's a good story.
Thank you.
And then, as I recall, that's not the end of the story, is it?
Then you went into the fast food place and said, who just ordered a knuckle sandwich?
And the next thing you know, that guy was making out with the floor.
You bet.
You bet.
That's my way of doing business.
That's the Keith I know.
You bet.
When we get back, we've got a clip from Josh's interview with Detective Stoyer.
He'll tell us what it was like sitting face-to-face with the parents of a suspected killer.
So you sat down with Detective Stoyer Josh, to talk motives for Danny, Jared and Bailey with regard to Justin's murder and what it was like telling Bailey's parents about her involvement in his death.
That detective had a job to do, that's for sure.
So here is a clip that did not make it into the episode.
What's the driving force here?
Is this money?
Is this jealousy?
Is this hatred?
I think it's a little bit of all three.
And I think it was different for each person.
It looked like Danny was motivated strictly by greed.
Bailey, obviously...
Money again, but Jarrett money, all three money hatred jealousy, and it just pushed him to that point.
Over a very long period of time, Bailey Sharp went from victim to unindicted co-conspirator, and only unindicted because she'd been murdered.
Yeah.
How do you tell her parents that?
It's a difficult conversation, but just...
The family had struggled with Bailey for some time.
An unfortunate but inevitable, I think, result, given the lifestyle that she had fallen into.
I think this was very difficult for Sergeant Stoyer.
Because you know, normally when you are a police officer and you're making a death notification, like that's hard enough to talk to grieving parents and say your son or daughter is no longer with us.
It's something else to say, you know, your son or daughter is no longer with us.
And if they were, they'd be on trial for murder.
Now Bailey's, that didn't happen in that conversation.
Bailey's family didn't learn about that for a while.
But like that's a double whammy, which is you've lost your kid.
And by the way, because they were involved in a murder plot.
And my heart broke for the parents of Bailey who had struggled clearly with her addiction problems for a long time.
We've seen parents on Dateline who enable their kids, who make excuses for their kids, who lie for their kids, who give alibis, who hide evidence, who do everything they can to get their kid off the hook.
Bailey's parents aren't like that at all.
They completely recognize what happened here.
It tears them up that this addiction that they were reliving really hoping that she was going to get past ended up being sort of the thing that that connected her to this murder plot.
And her dad's a detective with Seattle PD.
And I said to him like you know, I'm sure you said to her don't hang out with the wrong kind of people.
I'm sure you said, you know, don't get involved with drugs.
And I'm sure you told her, try to get off drugs once you're on drugs.
And I said to him but you probably didn't need to tell her, or thought you didn't need to tell her.
Don't get involved in a murder plot.
But...
She did.
I mean, and they don't apologize for that.
They don't explain it.
They don't try to lessen it.
They are as horrified by it as any parent would be.
And they're not pretending.
Right.
And they see this very clearly, which is sort of another reason why you can't help but feel terrible for them.
I was, I must say, a little surprised that they agreed to come on television and talk to you.
No, I mean, I don't even think it was like taking their castor oil.
I mean, it wasn't like they felt like they deserved some sort of public discussion of this.
I mean, they...
They were absolutely, completely upfront.
They are ashamed of what she did.
You know, they spent a huge amount of time just thinking of her as a murder victim, which she was.
And then later they realized, oh, she's also a murderer.
And I thought their willingness to sit down and discuss this as forthrightly as they did was really nothing short of admirable.
And your heart breaks for them.
I thought it was very sensitively handled.
Thank you.
I hate giving any credit to you, Michael Witts, because you don't deserve any.
I know how that sticks in your throat.
I know it does.
But then I know who you are working with on this story, so I understand why.
They're much more talented than I am.
So that's – yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, Michelle Madigan is –
Is an amazing producer, partly because of the fact that she is an incredibly astute and sympathetic, understanding woman who knows what people are going through.
She's a mom and she's got kids and she's…
Yeah, and that I think helps her connect with people.
And Rebecca Glazer, also producing this episode, also a rising star at Dateline.
No question about it.
Yeah, we have some wonderful people we work with.
Well, listen, I noticed something about this episode, which I've noticed before.
And I think that people who watch Dateline would like to know about a little style issue.
You seem to sit at a desk or a table with the people on the other side talking to you.
Is that the method you use for interviews?
Yes.
Well, this is going to be the – I thought that you getting in a fistfight part was going to be the best part of Talking Deadline, but now I think this is going to be.
So I know that you traditionally work without notes because you know every detail of the story, absolutely cold.
Yes.
So you can sit across from someone and you don't need any notes.
I, on the other hand, am more of a mortal than you are.
And I don't have your phenomenal memory or your command of the facts.
Right.
Well, I'm aware of that.
That being said, I mean, those are – Everyone is aware of that at Dateline, yes.
But I like to work off of notes.
I have all the questions written out in front of me.
And I have them in very big type and bold because I don't wear contact lenses.
And so I don't want to wear these glasses on television.
I don't see why not.
They look pretty good on you.
Eventually, I'm going to have to.
They make you look smarter, Josh.
That's the point of those glasses.
I could hardly look any dumber.
You look like sort of a detective.
No.
Sort of.
That's nice of you, but no.
So I like to have all my notes in front of me and I spread them out on a tabletop, which is why I –
I have a table, and there's a table that some of our crews here in Los Angeles carry around with them.
So that same table has been in a bunch of different interviews in Southern California and elsewhere in the West.
Yes.
Wait a minute, they take it out of town?
It has been taken out of town and brought back to town.
It's just a very traditional folding table with a wooden top, but it's...
Yeah, it's been in a lot of datelines.
It has.
And it helps me because I can take notes on it.
I can rest my elbows on it.
You probably have kind of an emotional connection to that table now.
You use it so often.
We're like this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, closer than the one I have to you, let me just say.
But that wouldn't take much.
Yeah.
And then one more thing about the table, which is that if the person across from you gets angry –
And tries to lunge at you, which has happened to me at least one time on Dateline.
You get the table there, which kind of slows them down and allows me to say no no, the person you really want is Keith Morrison.
Now, when people lunge at me, they usually –
Actually, nobody's ever lunged at me, Josh.
That's something you've got over me.
Nobody?
You never made anybody so angry that they wanted to take a swing at you?
I mean, I'm not talking about people who work at Dateline.
I'm talking about people you interview.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
They may have thought those thoughts, but they didn't do anything about them.
Oh, I'm sure it's occurred to them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you, Josh.
I appreciate that.
I think we're going to talk to Michelle Madigan in a moment.
About social media questions, yes.
Until we meet again, Josh.
Until we meet again.
Until we meet again.
Thank you.
Hi, everyone.
I'm Michelle Madigan, one of the producers of this episode, Wrong Turns.
It turns out both Josh and Keith are filming today.
So my co-producer, Rebecca Glazer, and I are here and we'll go through your questions from social media.
Hi, Rebecca.
Hi, Michelle.
So Rebecca was on X on Friday answering viewer questions.
And I'm not sure if all of our listeners know that, but if you do watch the episode live, we have a producer online during the broadcast to answer the questions that come up and answer.
You know, Josh was online Friday too.
So definitely if you're watching, join us on social media.
It's a lot of interaction.
And this one was pretty active.
Yeah, so there were a lot of comments on Facebook about the twists and turns of the case.
So Bridget Falcons Taylor on Facebook said, And then Nick Nero says, And best is in all caps.
Lots of twists and turns.
Oh, exactly.
Initially...
I understood that there were two murders and two defendants, but I did not know how they were all connected.
But one thing I knew was that Tanya, Justin's girlfriend, was going to be key.
And I really needed to speak with her first. to help understand how all of them were connected.
The big thing for me, as the case was making its way through the system, was to really learn more about Bailey Sharp.
She was such a mystery to me.
And...
Sure, the mystery to a lot of our audience too, right, Rebecca?
Yeah, a lot of people on X thought that Bailey Shark was a fake Facebook profile until the part of the episode where we found out that she had been murdered, which is something that we didn't even think about as we were writing.
That's sort of an interesting thing that we saw pop up.
Rebecca, you were at the trial every day.
What was it like to be in the courtroom?
I mentioned this on X too, but it was fascinating to me how there were no other reporters in the courtroom.
As the story of what happened started to unfold in trial, I was just more and more excited, shocked that there was no one else there.
Um, because it was.
It was so fascinating what happened.
I remember you called me and said something interesting happened during a break, so the judge was off the bench and it was quiet and i remember hearing someone say rebecca, And it was Jared.
And he was looking right at me.
And it turned out he just he wanted my business card and was interested in talking with me.
But it's a little jarring to hear your name called out across the courtroom by the defendant.
And he was actually interested in sitting down and doing an interview with us.
But Eventually his lawyer recommended against it, just because the case is going through appeals, and which is pretty standard.
But he was interested in talking initially.
This next topic is a big one.
On Facebook, a lot of people were talking about the broken relationship between Justin's family and Tanya and her baby and Justin's baby Logan.
Peg Watson Ebert said, Justin's parents are missing a relationship with their grandson.
Why would they do that?
And then Jill Todd said hopefully someday Justin's parents will be able to embrace their grandson and Tanya.
You know, we can't judge.
We don't know all the dynamics.
You know, everybody's going to go through this process very differently.
You know, I think we addressed it in the story as much as we could, but that's a heavy part of this case that both Rebecca and I wanted to be very sensitive about.
At the end of the day, it's their grieving process to go through.
And, you know, they allowed us a window into a small part of that.
And, you know, we don't know how they'll feel in the future or...
Really the full extent of how they all feel about each other.
We can never understand that.
Thank you so much for listening.
Remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or Dateline, you can reach out to us on social at DatelineNBC.
Also, get ready for Keith's latest original podcast series, The Man in the Black Mask.
When a man goes missing from a movie set, a real life horror story unfolds.
Beginning October 15th, you can listen to the latest episodes completely free.
Or to begin listening now.
Subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or datelinepremiumcom.
I can't wait.
I love his podcasts.
And of course, we'll see you on Fridays for Dateline on NBC.
