Hi everybody, I'm Josh Mankiewicz and we are Talking Dateline and today our guest is Dennis Murphy.
Hi Dennis.
Hey bud, how are you?
Good.
Good to hear you.
So this episode is called Shining Star and if you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed.
So go there, listen to it, or go to Peacock and watch it on TV, and then come back here.
Now for this Talking Dateline, we have a special interview with Chiquita's sister, Danita Tate, to see how she's been doing and how her family's been doing since all of this happened.
Just a little recap.
When Chiquita Tate was found stabbed to death in her law office in Baton Rouge, she was a criminal defense attorney.
Investigators pursued a number of leads, and everything ended up pointing right back to her husband, Greg Harris.
So let's talk Dateline.
So on almost any other episode of Dateline, Chiquita would have been sitting in a chair across from you, because that's the kind of person we end up interviewing.
Josh, I'm thinking the same thing.
I mean, here's a very accomplished, promising, young, rising criminal defense attorney.
And I could see a plausible dateline where she would have been the person in the chair telling us about defending her guy and being posed against.
Prem Burns, who you meet in the story, was a prosecutor.
Could have happened.
But a twist of fate put her in the the role of the victim of a Dateline story.
But she could well have been the guest expert in the defense chair.
I love that you found a clip of her sort of just talking about some case with reporters outside the courthouse.
Like, clearly she did that all the time.
Yeah, I think I got more sense of her personality from that one little clip.
This is an astonishing accomplishment story, Josh.
I mean, here she was born in a family with a lot of kids and not much money.
And she somehow lit her own fuse and rose up and got herself educated into college the first in her family and then into law school and a really promising rising attorney in the criminal defense ranks in Baton Rouge Louisiana.
Which is why we called this episode Shining Star, which she absolutely was, not just in the eyes of her family, but to everybody who knew her.
You know, sometimes I don't get why we name some of the episodes what we do, but not this one.
Shining Star really captures what this whole thing was about.
I think that's true.
And I also think that her past, present, and what would have been future clients lost a lot, too.
Yeah, exactly.
Because she clearly knew what she was doing.
Parenthetically, we could do an entire Talking Dateline just about episode titles.
And I would like to suggest that we do that.
How often are you stopped in the airport?
And somebody said you know, I really like that story, Secrets of Honeymoon Cove and I have no idea what they're talking about because we didn't know it by that.
When we're in the field, we don't call them those things.
I'm like, which one is that?
Yeah, no, we should do an entire – we should do a bonus talking dateline just about episode titles.
Okay, back to today's story.
So –
The sense that you get right away is that you know she's working at her desk and it's sort of a blitz attack.
Somebody just comes in and attacks her and there's this very quick.
It looks like fight to the death.
But also, I mean, those marks on the wall of her body.
You know, which is, I think, her blood, right?
That's all just kind of horrifying.
Just awful, Josh.
She's stabbed more than 40 times.
There's blood on the wall.
There's blood everywhere.
But interestingly, not blood bleeding from the office to the elevator down to the street.
There wasn't a blood trail.
And to this day I don't understand how the killer could get in there and commit such horrible bloody mess and then not leave a trail for the forensic guys to follow.
As students of Dateline probably know, when you stab somebody, particularly when you stab somebody that many times, there is a very good chance that you will get cut.
And in any event, there's a very good chance that you'll get their blood on you.
And in this case...
I'm guessing that that did not happen, because if Greg had some kind of cut on his hand, that would have been in the broadcast and it wasn't.
No, they did find blood at the house.
That became part of the forensic case.
But the say goodnight.
Evidence was when they retrieved his sunglasses and they found intermingled blood his and hers.
And that was probably the best thing to show to a jury.
Intermingled is not a word that you want to hear if you're criminal defense, if you're accused.
No.
That's harder to explain away.
You know, we generally can't do stories or it's very difficult to do Dateline stories in which the –
Obvious suspect ends up being the guilty party.
Like we really need some kind of arc to it.
We need other theories of the crime or other suspects.
And of course, and you know this, I don't know if our audience does, like we can't make that up.
We can't say the next door neighbor was a suspect if they weren't.
No, there's no writer's room here.
You can't go to the writer's room and say, what do you think, guys?
Let's go around.
But in this case, there certainly were other suspects, and Greg gave them all to us.
Hair from a woman's weave, an extension.
So what's that about?
Had she yanked that from her killer's head, meaning the killer is female?
That took a long time to explore.
Also, her wallet is missing.
And that ends up getting tossed out the window, apparently, on a very bad street in Baton Rouge.
And Prem, the prosecutor, I think, probably spun that as well in a very plausible way.
The killer has thrown away her wallet and if somebody picks it up and he's off to the mall spending money, the cops arrive and say we're going to take you down as good for her murder.
That didn't happen because the person who did in fact recover that stolen wallet was someone who knew Chiquita.
Which is an unbelievable stroke of luck.
Josh, I want to give a shout out to the two detectives here.
They ran down different theories.
They ran down the hair.
They ran down the wallet.
And as a card-carrying Murphy, I want to invoke Murphy's Law here because I think I can be an expert on it.
I didn't realize that was you, but go ahead.
There's surveillance cams, street cams in downtown Baton Rouge except this building.
Murphy's Law kicked in, which, as you know, is anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
Because the camera that was directly over the front door looking down at the killer coming and leaving didn't work that day.
I just want to say if I'd grown up with the name Murphy, I would be like adding to Murphy's Law like weekly.
I would be like, well, that's just Murphy's Law of dating, why she didn't call me back.
Right?
That's Murphy's Law of Pizza, why I got pepperoni when I didn't want it.
Yeah, I would be all over that.
And usually involves vehicles.
If something happens in a car, you know.
There you go.
The cops did a really thorough job here.
I mean look, you know, street cams, traffic cams, doorbell cams.
I mean, that's changed law enforcement.
One of the things that veteran homicide detectives talk about is how those things have become crutches and substitutes.
Yeah. for actually getting in the room and getting somebody to talk.
Right.
And remember, it's a large universe of possible suspects.
She was a criminal defense attorney.
She was, you know— representing some of the really bad people in her region.
Did one of them find a reason to come back and kill her?
I mean, all of that stuff was in play.
And then the whispered call about her being in a lesbian love triangle which, I'm thinking, no one who knew her really gave any credence to.
No, in her practice, she had helped a same-sex couple with the adoption of their child.
And the allegation is that something went wrong, there was jealousy, and Chiquita was part of it.
Absolutely not true.
But they ran down credit again to law enforcement there in Baton Rouge.
They went all the way to Texas to find the anonymous caller who put that call in.
And who does it turn out to be?
But the husband's sister.
It's good police work.
One because it disproves that theory, but second because it does not allow a defense attorney to later say in court wait a minute, you got a tip saying it was this and you didn't pay any attention to it.
You know, it was a really well-buttoned-up case.
Okay, when we get back what Greg Harris' family had to say about the convicted killer and that might surprise you.
The Ten Commandments is not in effect in a police interview room.
They can and do lie to people.
Controversial.
But in this case they did a real poker bluff on their main suspect, the husband, when he was in their police interview room.
So the story, the question to him in the interview room is so what did you do after you left her office?
He said, I went home.
And they said, well, what route?
He said, what do you mean, what route?
I went home.
And they said, you know, you have telephones and it records your route.
We can see where you were.
They didn't know.
But they said, you didn't go home the way you say you did.
When's the last time you went to Guardia Lane, where the wallet was retrieved?
And he walks right into it, Josh.
He says, oh, well, I was there last night.
You know, and there are the cops just falling off their chairs.
I mean, this is a bluff that has paid off.
That was a great moment.
You know, in other countries, in Great Britain, for example, you can't lie to suspects.
Police cannot lie to suspects.
Well, they did it here and it really helped them button up their whole case because it was coming back to the husband.
I mean, ultimately he got caught, but this feels like a killer who had—he's watched a lot of true crime.
This guy knows how police operate, maybe in part because his wife lived in that world.
He knows, like you find hair, you know, in the victim's hand, like that's a lead.
You get a tip that she's involved with somebody else, that's a lead.
The wallet's found in some bad part of town.
Police are going to go after that.
I mean, this was, in some ways, thoughtfully planned out.
His family...
The accused, they came forward and they thought that there was no way this guy could have done it.
The father, the brother, even though you're told by the prosecutor who this guy was.
They see Jekyll, not Hyde or whichever one is the bad guy.
They do not see that person.
And it becomes persuasive when you talk to them, say, this can't be Greg.
I really liked Greg's family.
And you know, we obviously both of us see a lot of families in that situation in which they're sort of – forced to examine whether somebody that they have always loved and trusted is in fact somebody different than the person that they knew or that they thought they knew.
And you see families rally around people like that sometimes.
And sometimes you see them like they will not talk.
I thought that his family actually did him a lot of good because, I mean, I think they really kind of made it seem like wait, this really would have been out of character for him.
They did.
And in the moment when talking to him, I was thinking, man, I hope this guy didn't do it.
We know at that point it was all history because he was done and sent away.
But I was hoping that the theory of the case was going to be wrong, because the family was so persuasive that it's not our kid.
Yeah.
But then you come back to all of the evidence, and it is him.
Did Greg know about that recording that was found of the two of them having the fight?
Was he aware of that?
Good question.
I don't know.
That becomes another part of the circumstantial case, because cops retrieve a cassette or something a recording of – of Greg, of the husband and the wife having words.
They're talking about splitting the sheets and angry words.
And then as they pursued it further, of course, they find courtroom docs about violence complaints.
They had stories from other women in his life.
With that dreaded dateline word Josh, he is controlling.
How often have we heard that word?
Controlling.
I've circled that on my pad here.
When you hear that…
Uh, on Dateline, generally that's your suspect run.
Don't look.
Yeah.
I'm now about to contradict something I just said, because I said earlier that this was sort of a thoughtful killer who had, who had uh, you know, clearly seen a lot of true crime, because he knew how to lead false trails for investigators.
On the other hand, Now that I think about it, one of the things that cops are going to do in any investigation they're going to find out where you live and they're going to look for previous law enforcement contact at that address.
And what that was for and what the neighbors say, and whether there's any court cases pending and what legal documents there are.
And all of that's going to come up.
What's going to come up is – And by the way, Chiquita had just taken out a lease on a new apartment.
Right.
She was going to be out of there.
And that's all going to be discoverable by investigators.
What's Baton Rouge like?
And also that space that you shot in, that giant barn, that looked great.
That looked very cool.
That's the kind of place I love to shoot in because it's got a lot of room.
Yeah.
Baton Rouge, of course, is a river town.
And it's a wonderful old place and we had some wonderful poor boys made with oysters, of all things.
So the food was good.
The town, the people were very gracious to us.
And we found this old place to do the interview.
You know—
Our crews arrive with a lot of stuff.
It's like they're setting up the Rolling Stones on stage.
We got guys pulling stuff out of Suburbans, light kits, cameras, gears.
And we need a lot of room.
We need a lot of sprawling space.
Yeah.
And we found an antique warehouse that gave us just that.
And to sort of change things around between interviews, the guys would go poking around in the antiques where they'd move the stuff and come up with a table or a lampshade or something.
You know, when I first got there, we arrived at these stories from all points on the map, and I was coming over from Florida, I think, and Dorothy Newell, the producer, was coming down from the New York area.
And she got on the ground first and I gave her a shout and she said you know, I'm out here in the neighborhood where a lot of this stuff happened.
Do you want to come out?
I said, sure.
So Dorothy and I drove to the place, which was... where Chiquita had come from.
And it wasn't grinding poverty.
It was mixed.
But it was helpful to see this neighborhood.
A sense of place to me is always helpful in these things.
Well, that's why, to me, it's always helpful to go to the place where it happened.
I mean, I always want to do that.
I always want to be in the city where it happened, and I want to visit the scene.
Let me ask you a question.
You've given away a little Dateline trick here, which is that sometimes we rent a great big space.
Sometimes it's an event space, or sometimes it's some kind of unused office space or something.
And then we use that space for all the interviews, and we change the backgrounds.
And what you need for that is some props, frequently, which is stuff we – we find on the scene.
One crew had purchased what they called a banker's lamp, sort of the green shade thing like a 19th century thing.
And it showed up in so many stories.
I said, Fred, where's the banker's lamp?
He said, I can get it for you.
So sometimes the guys carry props with them.
There's a crew out here that has a table with them.
That has been the table between me and the interviewee in like a couple of dozen places.
And it's very helpful because I like to spread my notes out on the table.
Is that going to be in the Dateline merch store?
It should.
Josh's table?
We should sell the main table.
I think it's a terrific idea.
After the break, Dennis and I are going to be joined by Chiquita's sister, Danita Tate.
Thank you.
Well, now we are joined by Danita Tate, who is Chiquita's sister.
Thank you so much for doing this.
You're welcome.
Danita, it is so good to see you.
This is Dennis.
And it's been many years since we talked.
Yes, sir.
I hope the years have all been good for you, but I know that you've had some painful time in there.
You know what I was... I just looked at the story again yesterday.
We did this a while back.
And I'm still trying to understand how it was that that Chiquita, big family, not much money, how she was able to light her own fuse and do everything she did and just get herself on the road that she did.
Well, Shakira always has been feisty, bigoted, want to be in control, and always right.
Always right.
Her way or no way.
I like that word, feisty, and I bet your family was as proud as they could be of her.
Yes, we are.
I still am.
I still celebrate.
Let me ask you about an adage that you probably heard a lot of times over the years, and that is time heals all wounds.
In your experience, is that true?
That is not true.
I don't know who came up with that statement.
Some days are just better than others, but The wound is like it constantly reopens for me.
It's never healed over, huh?
No, it's never healed.
Can I take you back to when she was killed?
When that happened and you heard that she was dead, was your first thought that it was Greg, or did you buy any of those other things?
Possible theories.
Well, at the time when he called me and I arrived at the office, no, I didn't believe it.
It was hard to believe it.
As a matter of fact, it was years before I accepted it and believed it.
You thought what?
He was an okay guy, huh?
Yes, I did.
Danita, did you know there was trouble in the marriage?
We didn't find out until we got to court, and that's when all the pieces started coming together.
I always questioned, what could I have done?
Why wasn't I there?
But there's nothing we can do.
And there was nothing you could do, and you should not hold yourself responsible for this.
This was all him.
And it was probably out of your hands and out of her hands, too.
But that wasn't the end of your grief by a long shot, was it?
No, indeed.
Because you lost yet another sister.
Yes, just last year.
Wantonja, huh?
Wantonja.
Am I pronouncing your name right?
Wantonja, yes.
Danita, what happened to your sister?
Well, I was told I knew that she did like side part-time work, building an account for this therapist and his wife.
You know, one time she was handicapped.
And the lady, when she pulled up, the lady usually comes out and help her out of the truck.
I was told.
When the lady walked out and made it to the door of the truck to help her out, Somebody walked up and shot the lady in the back of her head.
And my sister was hit.
Bullet went through her shoulder and hit her neck and killed her.
That's awful.
Danita, you've become a victim in the most horrible way twice in your life.
Yes.
You've since taken on domestic violence as a cause.
Yes.
You get people organized.
You speak to groups about domestic violence, about guns.
Yes.
Why did you do that?
Is it helping you?
Well, it helps me.
My whole thing is, if someone is in that situation, I try to help them, give them knowledge of making a plan, letting them know that it's not your fault.
You know because I didn't understand until I started doing this motivational domestic violence speaking that a lot of these ladies and sometimes men, feel like it's their fault, that they're doing something wrong.
This is why this is happening to them.
So I try to motivate and encourage them and let them know that it's not your fault.
Danita, I realize we're talking about what seriously opened wounds for you.
Scar tissue never formed here.
It's as painful, I think, as it was the day it all happened.
And I appreciate you very much for sitting down with us and sharing this painful story, because I think you are someone clearly, who does help other people who need advice, who need to understand what might happen.
I want to thank you for coming on here.
And I think what you're doing is wonderful.
And I think your message to those women is exactly right, which is this is not your fault and you need to get out.
You said, thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, so that is Talking Dateline for this week.
Before we go, I want to say that if you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, you should call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799, or you can text START to 88788 or you can visit wwwthehotlineorg.
Dennis Murphy, thank you for joining us.
Pleasure, Josh.
We will be back with another episode next week.
And until then, thanks.
See you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.
